Author Topic: FFXIII?  (Read 31949 times)

Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #100 on: 2011-09-14 16:56:10 »
If you look at this from a company's viewpoint, it's better to rush games that will sell than to take their time and try to produce something everyone will like. If they make games that are rushed and people buy it, why would they change their tactics?

we're not the company so obviously we don't give a cheese about what is good for them.

Do you enjoy murder lol?
Are you suggesting someone else than yourself should decide what to enjoy, and what's good for you?  :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder
Also, way to completely miss the point. I'm saying just because I enjoy X doesn't mean it's GOOD or that I should be encouraged or left alone liking it. By your logic, I should be given the a-ok to enjoy torturing others. Oh and by the way. Yes, most of the things that fall in the category of "what is good for you" are decided by others. Haven't you heard of governments?

So you're saying people can't like FFXIII or its sequel just because you don't?

see above.


Just because you're going to accept BAD and YOU don't mind, doesn't mean it's actually a good thing. But that's never gonna get into people's heads. Because then there'd be something actually in there.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-14 17:03:55 by KuugenTheFox »

ultima espio

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #101 on: 2011-09-14 17:04:27 »
Fun Fact - FF13-2 was in development before FF13 was released in the west.

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #102 on: 2011-09-14 18:04:14 »
@KuugenTheFox
No, actually, that's your logic. You are trying to defend both absolute and relative viewpoints at the same time. You did it again in your last post. An absolute BAD can't be relatively good to anything.

Marc

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #103 on: 2011-09-14 22:02:33 »
It is simple really.  Dialogue and story of FF13 are simple but convulted.  Illogical and also needed manuals for exposition.  That isn't a good thing it tells you it is bad.

NPC, towns, minigames, sidequests and exploration are crititical to jrpg, and they removed the vast bulk.  That isn't a good thing.

Whilst you are free to like that personally, that can never be a good thing in a genre which is based around it.  People buy jrpg generally because they expect jrpg.  They do not expect a game which has had its heart and soul ripped out to appeal to FPS generation.

I think the difference between both opinions here is that some judge FFXIII solely as a jrpg while others judge it as a game.  I don't think FFXIII is a jrpg in the strictest sense of the genre.  It's more of an hybrid between action-rpgs and an interactive novel than anything else to me. 

Does that make it bad ?  Not to me because I never cared for towns or most minigames and I find old type jrpg's to feel stale nowadays.  I never spent time in gold saucer to "play" unless I had s specific goal in mind (gold chocobo, omnislash, etc).  Square themselves have stated that DQ will always stay their "classic" franchise with very little changes between titltes except presentation while FF is their testbed for new gameplay elements.  I've always played jrpgs for their story and battle systems so in that sense the evolution of the FF series is no problem to me as I enjoyed both of those elements in FF XIII.  I do have a problem with FF's stories not being epic or good but I found FF XIII to be a vast improvement story-wise compared to FFXII and FFX but still not on the same level as FF IV, VI, VII or IX.  That's totally subjective however.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #104 on: 2011-09-14 22:58:18 »
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

Less is not better.  You had an option of playing gold saucer games, now we have no choices.  It doesn't matter if you see that as good, it is a flaw, and that is no opinion.

Marc

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #105 on: 2011-09-15 02:24:26 »
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

Less is not better.  You had an option of playing gold saucer games, now we have no choices.  It doesn't matter if you see that as good, it is a flaw, and that is no opinion.

Unfortunately, that trend isn't about to reverse itself judging by overall trend in the games industry.  It's the same for the SNES purist who disliked the psx games and it'll get worse as each generations brings further and further changes so you'll be further and further alienated by future games.

As for myself, I like variety and I like changes.  Not all of them work out (gambits in ffxii is a good example of an horrible system) but I like trying out new things more than I "fear" the changes for a lack of a better word.  I also don't like forced gimmicky mini games or fetch quest in towns so not having them IS an improvement for me as most games do force them upon you at some point in the game even though the bulk of minigames are optional.  In FF7, there was the bike, snowboard, chocobo and sub minigames which you did HAVE to play to progress the story.  I wouldn't miss them one bit if they were gone and these were probably among the less annoying minigames on psx JRPG's.

However, I do realize I may be in the minority in the "old" ff fanbase and there's definitely nothing wrong with liking "tradtional" jrpgs as they're often great games and I'll still play them in the future if I feel the story will be good but I have a preference for the "refreshed" versions of those games, whatever genre you want to call them and I'll always stick up against anybody saying I'm wrong to do so.

FF7 feels dated now, and not just because of its graphics.  I still love it as you can see by my ranking on previous pages but there are now better RPG's than FF out there.

As for your comment about Mario Bros becoming a RPG, it actually happened and was a great game.  I suggest you look up Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario if you've never played them.  You'll be happy you did.

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #106 on: 2011-09-15 19:22:29 »
Most, if not all, arguments in this thread are ultimately opinion based. Based on fact or no, they're still opinions. If a person knows what he/she likes, and why, it's gonna take a hell of an argument to change that person's mind on the subject. It won't happen if it's opinion vs opinion.


I could care less what genre a game is as long as it's good. If Dragon Age 3 turns out to be the a great 3rd person shooter, it would be odd, but I can't imagine me not liking it because it was supposed to be an action rpg. However, I would probably feel the same way (somewhat) as I do towards the newer FFs. A big wtf. Btw, diablo 4 will not be a 100% puzzle game.

BlitzNCS

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #107 on: 2011-09-15 20:19:25 »
I could care less

Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #108 on: 2011-09-15 20:44:18 »
Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]

I love that guy.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #109 on: 2011-09-15 20:55:42 »
Most, if not all, arguments in this thread are ultimately opinion based. Based on fact or no, they're still opinions.

Being an opinion does not mean 1 argument isn't stronger than another.  No one has said you do not have a right to enjoy the game, what has been pointed out time and again is how flawed FFXIII is as a jrpg and a FF game.

Furthermore, I would not agree that bad dialogue, bad story, or bad game dynamics are "opinions" as they can be wholly demonstrated.

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #110 on: 2011-09-15 21:54:42 »
Being an opinion does not mean 1 argument isn't stronger than another.  No one has said you do not have a right to enjoy the game, what has been pointed out time and again is how flawed FFXIII is as a jrpg and a FF game.

Furthermore, I would not agree that bad dialogue, bad story, or bad game dynamics are "opinions" as they can be wholly demonstrated.

Except that they are. Some people like the story and dynamics, and that is also an opinion. Stop believing your opinions are facts and you will be much better off.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #111 on: 2011-09-15 21:57:11 »
I don;t believe my opinions are facts, I believe that FFXIII is a bad game on many levels  (way above the norm when compared to VII-X) which can be demonstrated AS facts, even if one still likes the game.  That's a big difference.

"That is just your opinion" is to me, the biggest cop out in the history of debate.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-15 22:04:43 by DLPB »

killuminati777

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #112 on: 2011-09-15 22:19:01 »
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

I totally agree with you. They shouldnt have made so many changes in the battle system. But i still think its an "ok" game, at least better than ffXII, but thats just my personal opinion. But then again nothing can or ever will beat ff7, its the blueprint in every way.

Cheers

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #113 on: 2011-09-15 22:22:54 »
I don;t believe my opinions are facts, I believe that FFXIII is a bad game on many levels  (way above the norm when compared to VII-X) which can be demonstrated AS facts, even if one still likes the game.  That's a big difference.

"That is just your opinion" is to me, the biggest cop out in the history of debate.

What a load of bullshit. This is not a 'The sky is blue' thing here. Everything you are comparing to other final fantasy games is subjective. Hence everything we are discussing here is an opinion not a fact. 'The story in FFXIII doesnt compare to FFVII' is an opinion not a fact. Just because something is a majority opinion does not make it fact. 'The gameplay in FFwhatever is superior' is opinion. FFXIII was released on PS3 - fact.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #114 on: 2011-09-15 22:28:30 »
So if I tell you FFXIII's graphics are sh*t, it is opinion?  Well I don't agree.  I think there are tons of things which make up any given argument that ARE fact, even if liking something is subjective. 

I think it is fact that FFXIII has many flaws when compared to other FF games.  Namely the use of 2 AI, much less minigame, much less side quest, less exploration, less NPC.

All of these can be demonstrated as fact.  Now you ask me if that is a good thing?  Well is it a good thing for a jrpg to throw away things that define its own genre?  No.  It isn't.

Then you have story, is it opinion that a story is bad when it makes very little logical sense, the dialogue is unrealistic and basic?  No.

There are tons of arguments here and some of them are not in any way shape or form an opinion.  Whether you like the game or not, does not come into it.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-15 22:32:17 by DLPB »

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #115 on: 2011-09-15 22:38:15 »
And that is your opinion. I off course think you are wrong. That is the beauty of opinion.









ps. off course was intentional

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #116 on: 2011-09-15 22:54:34 »
I like the game. My opinion. End of story.

Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #117 on: 2011-09-16 07:54:50 »
"Hurr durr you think the story is bad, so thats an opinion"
what are you, 12?

Just as there are standards and guidelines for art, even though it depends on the artist himself and his previous works ( OH YES you can see where I am going here ), so there are guidelines and standards for just about everything else including other media just as movies, music and yes, GAMES.

If by applying these standards and guidelines a result of "bad / worse than before" is achieved, that's not a ferning opinion, that's plain fact. Because you know, these guidelines are not just made by a single person. Every critic that holds his weight uses these same standards and guidelines and that's the exact reason the game has been declared bad. No amount of butthurt and "HURR DURR OPINIONS SO OPINIONS" is going to change that, no matter how many headstands you make.

The game is bad. You can enjoy bad things, nobody cares. That doesn't make them good.
It's the same as some people get high when they eat the strawberries of others. And yes, I did intend to make this a LITERAL comparsion.
Because those people are eating squareenixs strawberries. quite literally.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #118 on: 2011-09-16 08:31:40 »
 :-o  ;D

I can't fault that really....  I have never been against people enjoying what they enjoy as long as it doesn't affect me, but that's the problem here...  the more people who lap up XIII the less chance there is of this business saying "hang on a second, people aren't buying this rushed out money spinner anymore"

I have said it numerous times, but reduced content and quality isn't just some opinion or some dreamed up occurrence... it really is happening, and the excuses seem to be

"Well I liked it so what if you didn't"
"I didn't even like towns, NPC, minigames, miniquests, and all those things that actually define jrpg."
"It is innovation.  Times move on!"
"That is just your opinion"
"Graphics are important... and it takes time, so that's why the games didn't get towns etc"
« Last Edit: 2011-09-16 08:34:52 by DLPB »

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #119 on: 2011-09-16 15:34:25 »
All you people are comparing FFXIII to a classic jrpg. I think this is the main fault. As a jrpg the game fails miserably in almost every way. I liken FFXIII to a hybrid action rpg or perhaps an interactive movie. Comparing it like this makes it not so bad.

To sum up:

If you were expecting a classic jrpg: the game was a horrible waste of resources and should not have been made in the first place.

If you realize that FFXIII is not a classic jrpg: You may just enjoy the game for what it is, and maybe it does not 'fail'




Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #120 on: 2011-09-16 16:12:10 »
If you market your game as jrpg, then it should be classified as such, no matter how much better the game would be in a different genre
And don't come up to me now and say it's not being marketed as rpg. Because that'd be utterly ridiculous.

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #121 on: 2011-09-16 16:19:07 »
I said classic jrpg. I would classify ffxiii as a hybrid action rpg, which is still an rpg. I define jrpg as turn based style like ff - ffx

Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #122 on: 2011-09-16 16:25:39 »
You're grasping at straws here sl.
Let me give you a simple example
If the company that makes call of duty suddenly decides to mess up the next installment into the series so badly that it'll be panned by critics all over the place, you think people should just assume they shifted the target demographic and the genre of a long running game series just like that?
They tried to be innovative with ff13 and failed in the most spectacular way possible.
Most people associate Final Fantasy with the jrpg genre. Even FFX-2 was still a jrpg. And so was FF12, although that was dangerously on the edge. FF13 is just a complete fail to meet expectations.
The 'big' money is in the market where even the most casual player buys the game. See CoD example. The game is EXTREMELY easy, simple and pretty much dumbed down to the core principles of it's genre. The same applies to FF13 except that they messed up even the core principles by trying to move the game from being a jrpg to something else. The result is the hideous atrocity we have now.

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #123 on: 2011-09-16 17:08:56 »
Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]

He, he. Well, actually, I could care less. I think I care 5 out of 134.
/offtopic

FF13 is a rpg, that's for sure, but I never got the classic jrpg impression watching those trailers.
If I marketed a product as a car but it turned out to be a phone, should it be used as a car because it was marketed as a car? It would cause confusion and disappointment, but people would not try driving it on the highway.

lol if it's a fact that FF13 is bad, why are there so many diverged opinions?

Absolute facts are ultimately provable, by logic, science or other means. Criteria/guidelines for a "good" story are not absolutes. Most of them are dependables, like: what are you trying to tell, and whom are you telling it to? Depending on the level of terminology, no such thing as a good or bad story exist. One can't put a story under a magnifying glass and say, "LOOK! darr is good". Then, on this level, what do you mean by good?

There are stories that can capture and compel you to a state you like, thus stories may bring forth good (or bad), in a sense. How the story is experienced is highly dependable on the person experiencing it. The story itself is not experience. If it's a fact that a story can be 100% good by an ultimate standard, then that story couldn't possibly produce diverged opinions. In fact, it couldn't even get opinions, it would be known to all that it's a good story. No one would question it, like no one questions if a tree really is a car. Even the most experienced critics gives diverged opinions on about anything that can be reviewed.

Besides, FF13 have received good reviews overall. In other words, I wouldn't use that as an "evidence" against the game being good. Now someone will probably mention you can only trust certain critics. I think even if that's true, all of these would not agree 100%.

Again, I don't try to defend FF13 here. I think people feel the urge to voice their complaints; fair enough. I also believe some people honestly thinks it's a good game, without making excuses.

sl1982

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #124 on: 2011-09-16 17:15:03 »
Come on now. Even in your post you admit the ff franchise has been moving away from its jrpg roots. Maybe that is why it fails miserably when you compare it to one. Like i said, i wouldnt call ffxiii a jrpg. It has none of the elements required of one except for a storyline. Honestly i think the game would have been better received had it not been called final fantasy. Calling it that gives people expectations that the game could not meet. Yet i do think the game was decent in its own right.