Author Topic: FFXIII?  (Read 31612 times)

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #125 on: 2011-09-16 18:07:22 »
Quote
lol if it's a fact that FF13 is bad, why are there so many diverged opinions?

Unfortunately fanboyism is a powerful thing and forums do not represent overall opinion.  They are a small slice of the overall population (and the most vocal and fanatic of that population)

FF 13 is bad, because there are numerous facts about its design that are bad.  These aren't opinions.  Eventually you get to a point where you either accept that so many problems with a game is a bad thing overall, or you say "I loved it, so did many people, therefore it wasn't bad"  which is a fallacy.

Criticial thinking does not involve who "liked it", that has nothing to do with this argument.  Aside from graphics, FF13 reduced quality and quantity in almost every dept compared to VII-X. 

When the game designers come out and tell you they are not remaking VII because it would be too hard, you have to accept that the implication is that today's games are not as hard to make than the earlier ones.  Ergo less effort is being placed into them.  It is completely logical.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-16 18:09:19 by DLPB »

msifreakster

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #126 on: 2011-09-16 18:19:59 »
I agree with sl. I think the game, in its own right, isn't bad (opinion), I liked it (opinion) but it didn't feel like an FF title to me (once again opinion).

Now in regards as to what is opinion and what isn't here is what works best for me to describe opinion/fact.
If the statement uses "I think" or "I feel", or either of those phrases is a suitable substitution, then that statement is an OPINION, no matter how many people think or feel the same.

A fact is something that has proof.  Many opinions =/= fact or proof
i.e. I think/feel FFXIII has crap story/batlle system etc =/= FFXIII has crap story/battle system etc. Every individual thinks/feels differently.
i.e. I think/feel FFXIII was an amazing game, better an any of the other FFs I have ever played =/= FFXIII was a great game, or the best FF.

It doesn't matter how many people, critics or fanbase feel that way. It is 100% opinion.
My opinion is, I like the game, i have genuinely had a fun time playing. To me it doesn't feel like a true FF title though. (Both of these statements are also opinion.)
Others feel the opposite. No matter how deeply you feel or think FFXIII is a crap game or just not living up to the FF name it doesn't mean its a fact.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-16 18:22:21 by msifreakster »

Marc

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #127 on: 2011-09-16 20:10:07 »
FF 13 is bad, because there are numerous facts about its design that are bad.  These aren't opinions.  Eventually you get to a point where you either accept that so many problems with a game is a bad thing overall, or you say "I loved it, so did many people, therefore it wasn't bad"  which is a fallacy.

As SL and I have stated, as a jrpg, it is indeed a bad game.  As a game, it is not.  The story kept me wanting to know more and drew me in without being too simple (ie: save the world from the villain for the sake of it).  The graphical presentation was top notch.  The sound presentation was top notch.  The battle system (gameplay) was very well thought out and fun, (who here will really stay it's not a huge step up from ff xii's system ?).  The only stumbling block for me is replayability as there's no incentive to go back and "do it differently" or find easters eggs or anything like that.

I've just listed the 5 core elements most game review sites use to rate a game.  If I were to review it based on those metrics, it does very well in all of them except the last.  Not a 95%+ game but definitely a 85%+ game.  That means a good game.  Maybe not the game you expected as a jrpg as it is a poor jrpg but it's a good game nonetheless.  I don't think FF's will ever again be jrpg's.  Maybe FF15 for one last nostalgic call to the old fanbase à la ff9 but that's it.  Square has said numerous time they want to appeal to the western market more.  Apart from their existing fanbase (which is still sizeable, I admit), I don't see most of my friends ever playing FF's as they were.  Mass Effect, Deux Ex, GTA, Halo, Forza, etc, yes but not a jrpg.  They might play what FF is slowly becoming.  Or they might not and Square will only shoot themselves in the foot by alienating their core fanbase and not gaining a new one.  But I find that unlikely.  Only time will tell.

As for the rest of this thread, I'm out as I believe I stated what I wanted to say and I have nothing else constructive to add.

Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #128 on: 2011-09-17 17:09:15 »
I write stories for a living. If I'd produce something like the story of FF13, I'd have some really hungry months ahead of me
Your standards must be pretty weird if you like a setting like that. Especially the characterization was.. uhhh. LACKING to say this gently.

kicker

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #129 on: 2011-09-18 11:52:22 »
Funniest fact of the day. Some people here said that FFXIII lacked mini games a signature of the Final Fantasy series and especially of FF7.It looks like that the upcoming FFXIII-2 is going to feature a place similar to the Gold Saucer containing riding chocobos and other games.  This is solid proof that the gaming world is like fashion. you take something from 20 years ago and make it popular again =P old time classics, baby!! xD

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #130 on: 2011-09-18 20:42:03 »
Given how Squenix has been in recent years, coupled with the sheer number of cash ins (and that is what this is), it would take a huge leap of faith to assume this game is going to be any good.


kicker

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #131 on: 2011-09-18 21:26:55 »
thumbs up to that i guess.

hian

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #132 on: 2011-09-18 21:52:10 »
@hian
You said one way to see where a series goes wrong is to imagine it today and see where it starts to deviate from the core. Then I said you don't need to. You don't need those lenses to see it. FF13 is still worse than FF4 if you judge 'em by the time they're released. Am I'm disingenuous? What was my point? Don't you agree if you imagine enough, anything can be anything. I was not trying to correct you.

Ah ok. I just misunderstood you then. I thought it looked more like you were arguing the other way around.

I'm not sure I agree totally on FF4 being a better game in general, by todays standards, compared to 13 though.

The thing most people are apt to forget, is that if you played the original FF's in their original forms, their writing was generally strawberries(sorry to say).
Most people tend to lean on gameplay and story when they argue that older games were better, but even if thematically speaking FF4 was pretty good, like most nes/snes games, the dialogue which carried the story wasn't fleshed out in any way to make the characters and story truly alive, by any other media standard(books, movies etc).
After all, there was no tradition for quality writing in games back then(All your base are belong to us)
Older FF games required the player to get much more involved creatively to make the game come alive. Newer games, with their large amounts of dialogue, graphics and sound, don't need that.
Most people forget this though, because when we replay the old FF games, we still play off of the experience we got when we got creative with the games the first time.

The writing of FF games wasn't properly fleshed out until FF6 - Which leaves gameplay - And in terms of gameplay and content, it's still a Snes game, so it leaves a lot to be desired by todays standard.

This is the reason why I don't accept the argument that FF13 is an alround bad game - It isn't. It's an ok/good game. It's just a large step backwards as an FF-game in all departments except presentation.

I would disagree with you if you state FF started to change with FF10. Again: FF have always re-invented itself, and you can't count spinoffs like FF tactics in the picture.

Care to state why? I provided pretty good examples of how little change actually happens in FF games up until 10, in terms of actual gameplay, pace, and build. As I said, the change is usually limited to battle-mechanics, magic-mechanics and the setting.

Why can't I count Tactics though? Tactics is an excellent example of what "reimagining" actually means. FF Tactics is a reimagining because it is totally different. To refer to FF4 as compared to FF3, as a "reimagining" is a complete abuse of the term.

In any case, I agree with the rest. It just seemed to me, by your post, that you were arguing the other way around.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for all the opinion vs fact talk:

Yeah, all media, and standard of judgement is subjective at the end of the day. We all know this. It's beside the point.

Nobody here seems to actually be saying that FF13 is objectively a bad game in some absurd universal sense.

People are simply pointing out, that by the standards of earlier titles, and by the standard used when people judged those titles to be quality games, FF13 is not good.

Yes, the standards of video-gaming are arbitrarily set, but they are set all the same.
If you don't agree with them, good for you, but that doesn't really make any difference. For instance, I have my beef with the standard from which most people judge fighting games, but I know I'm a minority in that respect, and take that into account when raising my opinion.

When I say "I think Battle Arena Toshinded 3 is the best fighter ever", I know that isn't the case by the standards that most people judge fighters by - So, if somebody points out that Street Fighter 3 Alpha has better balance, I have to agree, because it's true.

Similarly, the point remains that FF13 us step backwards in terms of content, and story. That is not an opinion.
Thinking that it is, is as inane as thinking that Mondo in BAT3 is a fair and balanced character.

I also enjoyed FF13 to a certain degree - I'd have enjoyed it more, if it had been longer, had more exploration, a deeper combat-system, more minigames/interactive parts, cities, more side-quests of varied nature, and a more unique story.
This is sad to me, because I know SE could have done that if they had wanted to, and cared less about quick bucks, and more about creating quality games.

Consider if FF7 had been released(in the wake of a game like FF6), with Vagrant Story(top notch for PSX era) graphics, 20(+/-) hour completely linear gameplay, no exploration, no minigames, and a story which was more or less a complete revamp of an earlier game -
What would people say?
That is basically what FF13 is.