Author Topic: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin  (Read 8478 times)

Tenko Kuugen

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1350
  • Karma: 7
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #25 on: 2011-11-15 18:25:29 »
If you are making classes, and Aerith is your White Mage, you are going to be hosed halfway though the game.

Also the classes go you may need to double-up on the classes

Also Tifa is supposed to be a monk.

Unless you combine this with the Aerith patch

Vgr

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1867
  • Karma: 16
  • FF7 Bootleg's official squirrel
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #26 on: 2011-11-15 22:48:10 »
I think everybody forgot that LostWingx is working with the PSX version... :P

royalmurder

  • Cool newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • Ian Merryweather
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #27 on: 2011-11-23 04:11:03 »
If you are making classes, and Aerith is your White Mage, you are going to be hosed halfway though the game.

Also the classes go you may need to double-up on the classes

Also Tifa is supposed to be a monk.

You have here two points I was thinking about after the post about initial classes. a third was: barrett = black mage?! really? I swear he has the lowest magic in the normal game..... :o

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #28 on: 2011-12-01 08:09:03 »
This kernel mod is meant to create the potential for any character to become any class.  For LostWing and Revisited I applied pseudoclasses to the characters (With Aeris as a White Mage and Tifa as a Monk).  The characters in this mod are going to have relatively similar stat growth - *not identical stat growth so as to create the potential for a Summoner Barrett to have strengths and weaknesses over a Summoner Aeris.  If you choose to make Barrett your summoner you will have a summoner with more HP than your typical summoner, but less magic.  However, the differences in stats hp/mp between characters will not be as drastic as in LostWing.  The list I posted earlier in the thread provides information on which classes will be able to equip which materia.  This forces the player to choose which materia combinations are most important to him/her.  You can no longer have Final Attack=Revive, 4x-cut, W-Summon=KOR, Quadra Magic=Comet2, and Cure3=All on the same character, but you could have a party that was able to W-Summon, 4x-Cut, and Final=Attack Revive - you would just lose access to Blue Magic, Manipulation, Stealing, Flash, Ultima, Flare, and many other valuable spells and skills.  And yes, this is PSX version.  I've played VII with the secret menu option to change characters for several years now, so I always use Aeris throughout the game, but this kernel.mod won't penalize anyone who uses Aeris (but doesn't revive her) anymore than vanilla VII.

EDIT:  And the Classes Matched to Characters on the first page, those are just Starting classes.  As in, they start out that way when they join.  You can change them the instant they join!
« Last Edit: 2011-12-01 08:12:33 by xLostWingx »

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #29 on: 2011-12-01 14:11:29 »
About each class having their own individual summon they can use, I have to say I'm against this idea, I mean The summons should belong to the summoner (who I think is already at a disadvantage due to summons being.. not too great until KOTR and Phoenix). By which I mean to each his/her own It's like giving every class a status effect spell, doing so will take away all the of the time mages individuality.

Also I feel time mage might not be the best name for it as it implies it is only used for haste/slow/stop. IMO I think the time mage should have buffs and debuffs (not too up the inner workings of modding but is there any way to give characters bonus' that give their teamates more strength if they stay alive, as in say Barret is your time mage and has dragonforce on him. is there anyway to make say 25% of that work on the teamates as long as he lives?)

Sorry for the lengthy and confusing description should have just said Aura...

I believe the Time Mage should be named after something more status effect oriented. Or just stick to Final Fantasy tradition and have Green Mage. Again just suggestions.

Interested in your mod and basically any variant of Final Fantasy 7 Looking forward to seeing progress.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #30 on: 2011-12-05 22:33:08 »
Thanks for the substantial feeback.

I do think I need to call the Time Mage something else.  I'm interested in suggestions, but Green Mage doesn't please my ears.  Grey Mage is a little better...but kinda dumb.  Sorcerer?  Wizard? Necromancer? I just don't know.  Time Mage may work, because traditionally Time Mages do have spells like Comet and Meteo and Drain, Blind, and others.

As far as the summons for certain classes, I still don't know exactly what I intend to do.  For some classes, it would provide a much needed boost in usefulness, but for others it would just be superfluous.  I'm not worried about the Summoner not being able to pull his weight, becuase I have complete control over the strength and usefulness of summon spells.  In my other mods, Shiva can cause Stop and Rumah can cause Paralysis and other summons can cause status effects.  I can also make ChocoMog Shiva, Rumah, Ifrit, and Titan a little more powerful and decrease the power of certain Greater Summons.

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #31 on: 2011-12-05 23:39:04 »
In previous /final Fantasy's green game has also been used (I believe it's used in final fantasy tactics and XIII in the saboteur role?) However if you wish to be more original I can understand and I will stay vigilant of idea's if you're still looking.

 As for the summon issue I'm thinking in terms of class awesome rating as opposed to balance, as in it will take away the summoners individuality like it would take from the white mage if you gave everyone "cure".

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #32 on: 2011-12-06 01:32:06 »
I know exactly what you mean, but I have purposely allowed for the use of some of the less definitive magics to transfer between classes.  The point is to create functional and at least moderately traditional classes using FFVII's resources.  Of course I wouldn't give 'Full Cure' to Berserkers and Ninjas, or even Black Mages and Summoners, but allowing a Dragoon to summon at least one form of Bahamut seems reasonable to me.  The only time I see this being a problem would be the brief period of the game where Bahamut is the most powerful spell available to the summoner and dragoon.  But the summoner's Magic stat will be much higher than the dragoon's so it isn't really a big problem at all.  That is the easiest of summon/class compatibility decisions to make though lol.  I want the White Mage to have access to Phoenix or Alexander (I would likely change 'Holy Judgement''s attributes first) simply because the White Mage has fewer spells than most other magic classes.  But I agree it wouldn't benefit the game enough to justify giving most other classes a summon.  I'll let you know what I decide.

royalmurder

  • Cool newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • Ian Merryweather
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #33 on: 2011-12-06 13:06:29 »
With regards to the Time Mage problem you have; I don't think something like Wizard/Sorcerer/Necromancer would be suitable, as (for the first two) more powerful white / black mages (usually, anyway).
And Necromancer is a specialised time mage, so maybe not that useful.

The use of status magic is covered by Green Mages in Tactics Advance, A2 and in XII (that I know of), and for other class-based FFs, it's covered by Time Magic (most spells can be explained by the use of time, so I think it's fair enough).
So Time Mage is pretty much the best option you have.


With Summons, would the summoner have access to the class-specific summons too?

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #34 on: 2011-12-06 14:20:58 »
May I ask what support and command materia will be removed?

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #35 on: 2011-12-06 20:29:00 »
So it will either be Green Mage or Time Mage.  alrite

Yes the summoner will still be able to use all summons, even if a Dragoon got Bahamut or a White Mage got Alexander.

I don't intend to remove any command materia or support materia.  I may split sme commands from materia (Mug/Steal, Throw/Coin) if Wallmarket permits me (I think i've tried that before).  And I may add a support materia or two, if it can be justified.

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #36 on: 2011-12-06 20:35:47 »
I would appreciate the steal/mug being separated very much, I can't stress how annoyed I was trying to steal adaman bangles from a manipulated adamantoise in gjoeruvl's mod.. That would be a great enhancement, and if not I'm not sure about other peoples views but I prefer steal over mug in every sense it also avoids the added cut steal trick so the thief class won't get a "ghetto" double cut.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #37 on: 2011-12-06 21:00:48 »
Yes, I think they should be seperate commands.  I think I can only create one (possibly 2) additional command materia, so it should be feasible; I think I have done it in one of my other mods anyway.  Seperating Coin and Throw would also be nice, considering I want Coin to be available to the Samurai and Throw to be available to the Ninja.  Ideally I would like to seperate all commands (2x-cut from 4x-cut, Slash-All from Flash), but I will see what I can do.  Fortunately these types of changes are simple and easy to implement, it is simply a matter of resources (blank materia that can function as command materia). 

Remember...I have no way of Forcing anyone to adhere to the rules of this game.  I will however, make it clear through Materia Descriptions, Equipment Descriptions, and even a Readme or FAQ, what each class may use, and what it is not permitted to use.  If someone chooses to ignore the rules, this will just be another amorphous mod.  If the rules are followed, then it should provide an experience that is not only reminiscent of FFVII, but of other Final Fantasies as well, while at the same time providing a completely new and unexplored experience of Job Classes within the FFVII system.

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #38 on: 2011-12-06 21:07:26 »
Aye if they don't follow the rules of the mod is there any point in them downloading it? I wouldn't be concerned about it after all it would be their experience they ruin not yours.

What materia will be removed if any? I have to say I never had much love for the sheild materia.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #39 on: 2011-12-06 21:23:40 »
Code: [Select]
Black Mage Abilities:  Fire, Ice, Bolt, Fire2, Ice2, Bolt2, Fire, Ice3, Bolt 3, Drain, Freeze,
Break, Tornado, Flare, Ultima, (Kjata?)

White Mage Abilities:  Cure, Esuna, Barrier, Mbarrier, Life, Holy Ray, Regen, Cure 3, Drain, Wall,
Death, Full Cure, Holy Flash, (Phoenix?)

Time Mage Abilities:  Sleepel, Silence, Confu, Berserk, Haste, Slow, Drain, Comet,
Mad Frog, Death, Bioshock, Silentshrink, Comet2, (Hades?)

Summoner Abilities:  Choco/Mog, Shiva, Ifrit, Rumah, Titan, Odin, Leviathan, Bahamut,
Kjata, Alexander, Phoenix, Neo Bahamut, Typhoon, Hades, Bahamut Zero, Knights of Round

Blue Mage Abilities:  Enemy Skills (many yet to be determined)

Samurai Abilities: Bioshock, Earthenbonds, Deadly Slumber, Silent Riddle, Confu, (Titan?)

Dragoon Abilities: Reis’s Wind, Lancer, Dragon Force, Dragon’s Gale, Mbarrier, (Bahamut?)

Ninja Abilities: Tsunami, Tropic Wind, Lucky Strike, Fire2?, (Ifrit?), (Leviathan?)

Berserker Abilities: Mad Rush, Explode, Last Stand, Berserk

Knight Abilities: Ice Punch, Thunderslash, Stock Breath, Barrier

==========================================================

Universal Materia: 
Spirit Plus, HP Plus, Speed Plus, Magic Plus, Luck Plus, Chocobo Lure, Mega-All, Underwater,
HP<=>MP, Long Range, Sense, W-Magic, W-Summon, W-Item, All, Magic Counter, Elemental,
Quadra Magic?

EXP Plus:  Blue Mage
Gil Plus:  Samurai
Enemy Away:  Blue Mage
Enemy Lure:  Berserker, Knight
Pre-Emptive:  Ninja
Counter Attack:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
Cover:  Knight, Berserker, Samurai
Counter:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
MP Turbo:  Black Mage, White Mage, Time Mage, Summoner
Booster:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
MP Absorb:  Black Mage, White Mage, Time Mage, Summoner, Dragoon
HP Absorb:  White Mage, Dragoon, Knight
Added Effect:  Time Mage, Samurai
Sneak Attack:  Ninja, Berserker
Final Attack:  Samurai, Dragoon, White Mage
Added Cut:  Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon, Berserker, Knight
Steal as Well:  Ninja
Morph:  Blue Mage
Deathblow:  Knight, Berserker
Manipulate:  Blue Mage
Mime:  Mime
Enemy Skill:  Blue Mage
2x-Cut:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
4x-Cut:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
Throw:  Ninja
Coin:  Samurai
Steal:  Ninja
Mug:  Ninja
Slash-All:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight
Flash:  Samurai, Dragoon, Ninja, Berserker, Knight

Off the top of my head, I don't remember which materia/skills I elminated, but here is the list of skills for each class.  If you don't see it on the list, then it has likely been eliminated.  I do intend to rework the spells that made the cut to account for the absense of the ones that were sacrificed.  For instance, there is no more 'Cure3', but Cure is a little stronger, Cure2 is stronger, and Regen and Full Cure are still available.  Not to mention Drain, White Wind, and Angel Whisper.

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #40 on: 2011-12-06 21:54:33 »
I see you've allowed the beserker to use both cover and counter attack it should be interesting to see how you have balanced that out.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #41 on: 2011-12-06 22:57:52 »
I have big plans for the Berserker in this mod.  When it is all said and done, the Berserker might be a little overpowered, but every party slot is so valuable and adding a Berserker to your party really limits you as a group.  The SOLIDER/Knight has some elemental skills and a few support spells, but he can also attack very well; the Black Mage can't do much of anything except for cause magical damage; the White Mage is gonna have a lot of trouble trying to cause significant damage and so on.  So there are the more versatile classes like the Ninja, Dragoon, Time Mage, and Blue Mage, and the Pure Classes like Black Mage, Summoner, Berserker.  The Knight, White Mage, and Samurai (kind of like a Monk), lie somewhere between the versatile and pre classes. 

The Blue Mage is basically a Mage with White, Black, and Time magic, a moderate ability to physically attack, and some excellent support abilities.  However, the Blue Mage is king of none of these abilities.  The Dragoon has a healthy Mdef, a decent Pdef, and fairly average stats all around, combined with access to a healing spell, a drain spell, and a mdef/def boosting spell, and a moderately powerful summon, the Dragoon is another jack-of-all-trades, but master of none.  The Ninja offers unmatched Speed and Luck, but with modest Str and Mag, and virtually no Vit to speak of, they have many useful skills and promote a more technical style of play.  The Time Mage will be spending most of his time inflicting positive and negative statuses, but will also be able to deal some damage, and he will do so with a higher Dex than any other mage. 

The Black Mage is designed for pure magical assault.  98% offensive magic, with the ability to use Drain and Hp Absorb.  The Black Mage is armed with the highest Mag stat in this mod.  The Summoner's Mag comes in at a close second.  Although the summons are generally more powerful than Black Magic, they require more MP and can only be cast a limited number of times.  Each of these classes are practically incapable of fending off physical attacks.  The Bersker on the other hand, is gifted with the highest Str of all the classes.  Combined with the Berserker's unique selection of equipment and accessories, he is a formidable unit indeed, but don't expect to do anything with him besides cause physical damage to enemies.

The Knight or SOLDIER, has the second highest Str in the mod, but also has a few tricks up his sleeve in the area of elemental abilitieshigh physical defense, and access to a select few supplemental spells.  The Samurai (is basically a Monk), combines status inflictions with physical attacks to damage and humiliate the enemy.  The Samurai's stats are slightly more balanced than the Knight's, Berserker's, and Ninja's.  The White Mage is primarily a healer of course, but with the barriers, drain, death, and possibly Alexander or Phoenix, it can produce effects other than healing..  The White Mage also has Holy Ray and Holy Flash, both of which are among the very few Holy Damage inflicting spells in the game.
« Last Edit: 2012-02-29 02:28:01 by xLostWingx »

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #42 on: 2011-12-06 23:33:32 »
Just thought of something that might be interesting if it can work.

Is it possible to add the effect of powersoul/master fist on other peoples equipment? If so I beleive it could make for a nice "glass cannon" beserker weapon.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #43 on: 2011-12-07 00:12:53 »
It is entirely possible, and quite likely.  I like "Glass Cannon"  :)

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #44 on: 2011-12-07 00:55:26 »
Might I suggest changing the "ninja" class' title into maybe Rogue or Thief? My reasoning for this is that none of the skills really reflect what a ninja does (I'm talking videogame ninja here not real ninja) which is sneak around and silently take out targets, except for the pre-emptive materia which is the only thing that really reflects ninja. Most of the other skills scream thief to me (steal,mug,steal as well) and rogue (4x cut) Anyway just my 2 cents.

Also any way to implement a class having low level magic? eg. time mage having access to Fire 2 or Cure 2?

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #45 on: 2011-12-07 03:58:12 »
It will remain Ninja, because within the confines of FFVII, the ninja in this mod will look like a ninja.  A Ninja in FFVII is a fast and lucky character that uses fire and water skills (Yuffie has high luck and dex in the regular game, uses a fire attack when you encounter her, and leviathan is the Wutai/DaChou summon).  In this mod, most Thief abilities will be available before most Ninja abilities, keeping with the FF tradition that the player must master the Thief class before gaining access to the advanced Ninja class.

Allowing the use of lesser spells for all classes, or groups of classes defiles the essence of the Job Class mod.  I've allowed for transference between certain skills for certain classes in an effort to maintain effective functionality, but any access at all to other classes' primary abilities causes the contributing class to become a little less useful.

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #46 on: 2011-12-07 14:40:43 »
Alright, Do you mind explaining your reasoning of the White Mage having Death? That one confused me.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #47 on: 2011-12-07 20:49:59 »
The most pertinent reason is so the White Mage doesn't get stuck with a limited repetoire of Esuna, Cure, Life, and Barrier.  But I think its reasonably justifiable that if a WhiteMage can grant life, that s/he can also take it away.  I'll be tinkering with Death's success rate and its ability to target one or all enemies.  If I recall correctly, the standard Death spell in VII has like a 25% success rate and can be cast on multiple enemies.  For this mod Death will probably be a single-target spell with a 40-50% chance of success.  I will also be fiddling with various enemies' immunities.  So, there may be enemies that Death has no effect on and enemies that always succumb to Death, i addition to enemies that have the standard chance of being instantly dispatched or missed.

The short version is, So the White Mage doesn't suck.

I understand that my representation of certain classes may not necessarily coincide with other players' idea of a particular class, but FFVII was not designed to easily accommodate rigid job classes.  Therefore, I have to do the best job that I can with the resources at my disposal.  While some classes may have a skill or spell that seems "off" to some, I assure you it is in the best interests of playability and functionality in the big picture.
« Last Edit: 2011-12-07 20:54:07 by xLostWingx »

Livesey

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #48 on: 2011-12-07 21:01:23 »
I totally understand that square did not have the job system in mind when they thought of the materia system and that it may not be very suitable to the game. This is a big task you're undertaking and I wish you the best of luck with it. I apologise if my previous comments seemed to be bashing the mod and I assure you that was not my intention, my intention was to give you some constructive criticism as well as better understand the reasoning behind the choices you have made. Some would not have been the choices I would have made but I can understand why you have made them. and hey if you listen to everyone this mod will never be done.

Great work here I will continue to post my opinions as I find more about it.

xLostWingx

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 796
  • Karma: 7
  • No Comment
    • View Profile
    • FFVII Lost Wing Mod/Hacks
Re: [WIP] FFVII Job Class Kernel.bin
« Reply #49 on: 2011-12-07 22:02:00 »
Thanks, and I didn't mean any offense.  I was hoping that someone would come along and ask questions like yours so that I could evaluate my own choices for how I will proceed with the mod.  It also promoted the thoughtful discussion of some of the deeper details of the mod.  Your question about the White Mage and Death was only the first of, if left unanswered, many other questions with similar answers (Why does the Knight have Barrier?, Why do some of the Samurai's abilities inflict statuses?, Why can the Ninja cast Fire2?).  I had to eliminate roughly 20 of the original spells to make room for job specific abilities while at the same time considering which enemies use the spell I'm transforming (it wouldn't be good if in the first reactor mission an enemy suddenly casts Holy Flash on you), so there are bound to be spells that got sacrificed that you would have preferred stayed in the game.

I am completely open to complimentary, implementable, and good ideas, but with 96% of the blueprint for this mod complete, these types of ideas are harder to come by.
« Last Edit: 2011-12-07 22:13:03 by xLostWingx »