Author Topic: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums  (Read 211302 times)

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #325 on: 2014-07-20 15:52:15 »
Well... I wasn't planning on testing 4K in game. I merely thought of rendering at 4K and scale down to HD in order to remove noise (maybe not the most efficient way to do so), and then build the field files.
Although... testing 4K in game may be an interesting experiment  :P

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #326 on: 2014-07-23 15:10:13 »
Update... Coming back at last to mds5_w, mostly working on textures.



There are a few things which will be changed from the original scene, which was riddled with design issues. The most drastic change is that the bus driver seat will not be visible: to be consistent with the proportions of the bus in mds5_1, the driver's seat is position a bit more than 1 metre in front of where the visibility of mds5_w ends. I'll replace it with other stuff. The dimensions of the other seats have followed some minor alteration (the ones I textured), so that they would have similar dimensions as a proper bus seat. I'll probably use models from Blend Swap to get the weapons done and speed up the whole job on that scene.

I have also successfully imported the environment of mds5_1 into that scene, so that it can be seen through the windows and windshield of the bus (you may see some canvas through the windows, and the rubble of the broken construction through the windshield. I'll have to work on the enviro light, though.

[EDIT] After double-checking, my seat dimensions do not correspond to those of reclining seats, which a/match the original design  b/correspond more to the concept of a touring bus. So... I guess I'll redesign them. Oh well. At least I got the materials done.
« Last Edit: 2014-07-23 23:58:07 by Mayo Master »

LeonhartGR

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #327 on: 2014-07-23 15:26:38 »
Wow! I'm blinded by immersion!

Sapphire

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #328 on: 2014-07-25 05:10:17 »
You've come a long way Mayo, it's great to see your still contributing to the 'cause' :P.

Are you using generic units 0_o?

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #329 on: 2014-07-25 14:53:33 »
One of the first things I do when working on a scene is to establish a proper scale. Usually I take the reference of an object whose dimensions are standard (example: door frames have standard height of 2.1 m) and normalize the whole scene based on that reference. For mds5_w, it was bouncing back and forth with how large the bus is in mds5_1, and match it with plausible bus dimensions. Once a scene is properly scaled, it's very easy to put units to all the dimensions in your scene.
Scaling a scene is important since many objects at original resolution have absurd sizes (namely, small objects were considerably enlarged to make them be recognizable at the very low res of "standard tv", rather than be small pixel blotches), which needs to be corrected in our HD renders. Another aspect is that some physics simulation in Blender (namely fluid sims) need to be scaled correctly, as well.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #330 on: 2014-07-28 15:22:16 »
Update! Basically I revised and textured all the objects that were made previously.



I hope you like it so far.

Sapphire

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #331 on: 2014-07-28 16:33:32 »
That's coming along nicely.. Can't wait to see the machine gun :mrgreen:

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #332 on: 2014-08-06 04:19:54 »
Update (click for 100% res)...


So... a few comments:
- Given how the bus was redesigned, the driver's seat was relocated much more in front, in a place not rendered in the indoor view. So, for that indoor scene, I needed to model something to fill the same place. I decided to opt for a luggage rack. I hope you find this suitable.
- Since the last update, in addition to the luggage rack, I added a bunch of cigarette butts, soda cans, posters/papers, clay pots, and a whisky bottle (which I will probably copy paste in several other places - I still need to work on the labels). I feel like the scene could use for "trash" objects (like cigarettes and soda cans), given that the rescaling process made them significantly smaller than in the original.
- I have a chainsaw model taken from BlendSwap (I can use it as long as I give credits, and it's for non-profit stuff). I'll pretty much render it for final renders (not WIP renders) so that I don't have to give acknowledgements 10 times in this thread. I had to retexture it, though (it was not made for Cycles). So, you'll see it eventually. The rescaling process made it look a bit small, although I would say the original chainsaw was humongous. I'll most likely do the same for all the other guns in the scene. I may want to model the katana myself, though.

I guess that's about it for now.

Covarr

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #333 on: 2014-08-06 04:53:43 »
I dunno if it's just me or what, but all that littery stuff seems really small relative to the scene. Either that, or this bus is enormous. It might be worth getting the scale technically wrong for the sake of feeling right, if that makes any sense; the wonky design in this game isn't always gonna be compatible with realistically-proportioned objects.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #334 on: 2014-08-06 06:08:18 »
That is a stunning bus you've got there mayonnaise, everything looks great but I agree that maybe the soda cans and cigs could be blown up 1.5x and made a tad fatter. Look at the hand-fists on the field models, to scale, next to the cans. Other than that, killer job so! I'm excited to test this area out

Luigi Brosse

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #335 on: 2014-08-06 07:42:01 »
Beautiful.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #336 on: 2014-08-06 15:30:28 »
Scaling was complicated because I wanted a match between the indoor and the outdoor scene, and this is the best compromise I could make (I'm not sure there's much room in that department). Yes, the bus is pretty big (slightly more than 2 metres wide, which is more than common buses - I think the length was around 9 metres and the height 3.5 metres). Still, the original was actually a lot bigger, and sizes were absurd (5 metres wide and tall, soda cans 50 cm tall, etc). I'm staking reference with Kaldarasha's models, and I made some pre-testings in game (that was a while ago, though, when testing ovrall dimensions of the bus) using myst6re Makou Reactor field editor (it works pretty well when models are about twice the size of the originals, i.e. around 1000).
Regarding the trash objects, since they look relatively small, I'll make them more numerous. I wouldn't want to modify the scaling I've come up with.

SpooX

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #337 on: 2014-08-06 20:14:30 »
Regarding the trash objects, since they look relatively small, I'll make them more numerous. I wouldn't want to modify the scaling I've come up with.

How does the scale look with chibies running around..?
just wondering
 8)

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #338 on: 2014-08-06 22:31:46 »
How does the scale look with chibies running around..?
just wondering
 8)
To be honest: not so good. But there's the thing: either we want the scene realistically made for characters with realistic proportions, or we keep it deformed for chibis characters. I don't think we can make a rescaling process which would be a suitable compromise for both kinds of characters. My take was always to make a design for realistically proportioned characters (in my opinion, the game gains a lot with new high poly models with more realistic proportions, while chibis look a bit off). I have to admit I have never been fond of chibis, even back in 1997. My own tastes aside, creating realistically proportioned environments (for realistically proportioned characters) makes them more believable (giving more immersion). It also helps the modelling of objects by taking real life examples and take their dimensions as guidelines. If an environment is scaled for chibi models, it will look more like a dollhouse than a real place. That pretty much sums up the motivation behind this design choice. This design choice will have to be consistent across 3D modelling artists, so I hope you're following me on this one.

Dubular

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #339 on: 2014-08-07 04:13:10 »
This design choice will have to be consistent across 3D modelling artists, so I hope you're following me on this one.

Errr...not to be contrary here but...isn't using chibis one of TA's big things? I thought that was all part of keeping with the style of FF7 but just increasing the resolution.

In any case the bus is looking awesome!

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #340 on: 2014-08-07 15:23:37 »
Errr...not to be contrary here but...isn't using chibis one of TA's big things? I thought that was all part of keeping with the style of FF7 but just increasing the resolution.

In any case the bus is looking awesome!
As far as I'm aware, the chibis were made as a first project, at the same time as the GUI. I believe at the time that HD field files were not even a priority. All this was made before I got on board - maybe SpooX or sl1982 would have a better idea of the history. Basically, you may say that the chibis were made a a time where:
- we hadn't even tested HD fields in game, and the "scaling" problem was not even outlined.
- Kaldarasha wasn't around, so we didn't have many good character models to play with (the shortcoming of many "character upgrade mod" is the consistency of the quality between one single very nicely detailed model and all the rest made of blocky chibis).
As we went through more and more modelling of the field scenes, the "scaling issue" became more and more apparent, and it looked like something we had to change (such as my favorite example of the tea cup measuring 40 cm in diameter). In a sense, we adapted the work after learning new elements.

On another note, some details just for fun...

Covarr

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #341 on: 2014-08-07 15:54:08 »
I would totally buy whiskey that said "Mayo Master" on the bottle. Or Mayonnaise Master.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #342 on: 2014-08-07 20:06:52 »
If I'm drinking mayonnaise whisky, it had better have more than 40% alc

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #343 on: 2014-08-08 00:49:04 »
I would totally buy whiskey that said "Mayo Master" on the bottle. Or Mayonnaise Master.
Sadly I'm not into making whisky, so that's not going to happen. I did however make a batch of mayonnaise with 12 years old whisky in it, it was pretty darn good  :D
 
If I'm drinking mayonnaise whisky, it had better have more than 40% alc
If I were to make whisky, it would be for the flavor, not the burn. But I could give you cask strength if you want more than 40%  :P

SpooX

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #344 on: 2014-08-08 20:08:42 »
As far as I'm aware, the chibis were made as a first project, at the same time as the GUI. I believe at the time that HD field files were not even a priority. All this was made before I got on board - maybe SpooX or sl1982 would have a better idea of the history.

errr...
Mayo, don't know how to put it, but did you ever read the TA faq?
Q: Things look great but we want full sized models instead of chibi. Can you make some?

A: Nope, look elsewhere.

Of course in the end evrything might be modular, i.e. from the package you don't install everything, but that is basically the reason that some objects are in fact in 'Chibi-scale'. The annoying part of making everything in exact scale is that those little can as example will be lost in the scene. And furthermore, any field models will look out of place.

just my two cents to keep it in mind, in the end it will be our artistic freedom to do whatever we want... :evil:

Oh and if the taste is good, I'm in for a 25+ year old wiskey, now that would be 37 years by now... :o

I like the details...
 8)

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #345 on: 2014-08-09 00:36:07 »
errr...
Mayo, don't know how to put it, but did you ever read the TA faq?
I did. Back when sl1982 and Timu started this endeavor, the original scope was to replicate the fields as simple magnifications of their original counterparts. This is probably more in line with the idea of chibis they had back then. If we wanted to strictly stick to this idea, I do not think the project of Team Avalanche would have significantly added value over what Omzy and then yarLson have accomplished. Should the scope of the project drafted by sl1982 and Timu more than 4 years ago be a rigid framework? I do not think so.

Of course in the end evrything might be modular, i.e. from the package you don't install everything, but that is basically the reason that some objects are in fact in 'Chibi-scale'. The annoying part of making everything in exact scale is that those little can as example will be lost in the scene. And furthermore, any field models will look out of place.

just my two cents to keep it in mind, in the end it will be our artistic freedom to do whatever we want... :evil:
Well, among field modellers we have to agree on something, for consistency's sake. I've already explained at length why I was opting for "realistically scale" modelling. I also think realistic-scale modelling would also facilitate consistency (since each modeller can refer to real life standards to design things). If modelling is made for chibi proportions, to be sincere it is very difficult to decide what items to deform and what items should be kept "realistic-ish".
I don't know if you'd want to make a poll to see who wants fields tailored for chibis vs. who wants fields for characters with realistic proportions. Or if you'd rather debate the direction of the project before we write a sticky about possible changes of scope.

yarLson

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #346 on: 2014-08-09 16:42:27 »
While in the end it is entirely up to the modelers I would like to apply my two cents.  First of all, by changing the scale of the game your implying that realistic texture models will then have to be created on top of the fact that animations would have to be reworked entirely, probably from the ground up.  In fact you might have to facilitate some sort of creation of a new model format entirely so that we can actually animate the models using modern standards rather than cutting them up into pieces.

Secondly, this isn't just a minor deviation from a rigid framework but an entire reimagining of the projects goals.  From the the start TA has been about accurately recreated the graphics based on their original artwork and proportions.  To go from a faithful recreation to scale realism is at odds with the very core philosophy of the project.

Now to be clear, I would thoroughly enjoy playing either project in the end and I am not saying any of this to pick sides.  More to illustrate that if you want to continue in this direction you might want to consider changing the name of this project to reflect the change in philosophy and leadership.  Furthermore the implication of work involved compounds exponentially if your goal is to actually bring the project to absolute visual consistency (because of model animations, probably walk meshes and any other unforeseen issue that arises in changing scale).  Not to mention the fact that many field scenes have already been worked in TA style and would have to be redone again to fit the new scale.

Lastly, just in my opinion, if I were to choose I would prefer an artistic recreation if your going to stick with the core game-play mechanics such as prerendered backgrounds, text interactions and everything that implies.  However I would prefer an accurate scale recreation if we could somehow break from prerendered backgrounds in the future and add in voices and more complex world dynamics like a controllable camera and a new model format.

Anyway that's just how I feel about it.
« Last Edit: 2014-08-09 16:44:15 by yarLson »

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #347 on: 2014-08-09 17:29:49 »
Ok... just to make sure, I decided to double-check a few things in game regarding scaling and the use of chibis. After further examination, here are my observations:
- I used chibis only, tested original fields scaling vs. revised realistic scaling. It turns out that realistic scaling isn't really detrimental to the use of chibi models (my earlier comments were actually flawed, since not based on actual testing). I tested it on my finished sewer scenes (colne_be1 and colne_be3), as well as my WIPs on the Sector 5 slums. In fact the scaling from original fields doesn't do a better favor to chibi models (for instance, soda cans in the original fields are still 3/4 the size of the chibis head). In ealin1/ealin12 original fields, objects in general are way too big with respect to the chibi models on default settings (ie. without using Makou Reactor). It used to be not-so-noticeable when playing on low resolution, but in 1920 x 1080 it's a bit of an eyesore.
- In fact, one more important parameter regarding scaling and how it fits character models is about how the character size is adjusted for each field, which can be edited using Makou Reactor tool. For instance, if you wish to have realistic proportions of field and characters, you need to edit that infamous bus/weapon shop scene (mds5_w). I haven't tested what kind of scaling the chibi character would need in Makou Reactor in order to get good results for that scene.

All in all, these tests have comforted me in the realistic rescaling direction. The bottom line is: realistically scaled scenes will look better than original scale scenes for both realistic and chibi models,  and for achieving the best results one will need to use Makou Reactor in either case.

Do I find this situation awfully convenient? Well, yes, and I am shameless about it   8)

Ok, a new comment popped up while I was typing this...

While in the end it is entirely up to the modelers I would like to apply my two cents.  First of all, by changing the scale of the game your implying that realistic texture models will then have to be created on top of the fact that animations would have to be reworked entirely, probably from the ground up.  In fact you might have to facilitate some sort of creation of a new model format entirely so that we can actually animate the models using modern standards rather than cutting them up into pieces.

Secondly, this isn't just a minor deviation from a rigid framework but an entire reimagining of the projects goals.  From the the start TA has been about accurately recreated the graphics based on their original artwork and proportions.  To go from a faithful recreation to scale realism is at odds with the very core philosophy of the project.

Now to be clear, I would thoroughly enjoy playing either project in the end and I am not saying any of this to pick sides.  More to illustrate that if you want to continue in this direction you might want to consider changing the name of this project to reflect the change in philosophy and leadership.  Furthermore the implication of work involved compounds exponentially if your goal is to actually bring the project to absolute visual consistency (because of model animations, probably walk meshes and any other unforeseen issue that arises in changing scale).  Not to mention the fact that many field scenes have already been worked in TA style and would have to be redone again to fit the new scale.

Lastly, just in my opinion, if I were to choose I would prefer an artistic recreation if your going to stick with the core game-play mechanics such as prerendered backgrounds, text interactions and everything that implies.  However I would prefer an accurate scale recreation if we could somehow break from prerendered backgrounds in the future and add in voices and more complex world dynamics like a controllable camera and a new model format.

Anyway that's just how I feel about it.
The character modelling side of Team Avalanche has been down for a long while now, and as far as I am aware there is no active contributor at all. As far as I am concerned, TA's work should now be solely focused on 3d modelling of fields for HD rendering, and that's it (this scope alone is insanely huge, probably more than I can chew). Practically, that's actually what's been going here for more than a year anyway. My aim would be to rather team up with other people or teams working in other areas (I was thinking of Kladarasha's characters, Bloodshot's HD battle fields, etc.), trying to pick the best of what's out there and work in correspondence with them. If people feel like we should make some official notification, I don't mind.
With that in mind, it's mostly up to the character modellers to work on the character's animation, not something we have to address in Team Avalanche. Then, when you mention that the work involved increases because I have to check visual consistency, walkmesh and layering, well I'm already doing all that. One last thing is: there are actually very few scenes which have been actually completed and released. So the amount of work which would need to be done to "fit the new scale" would be rather minimal (I think it would only involve rescaling a few items in anaho's finished scenes of Mideel), all the other completed scenes (by yours truly) either have already undergone the process, or are going to be reworked anyway (for instance, I need to rework all the texturing of eals1 and ealin1/ealin12 to be able to render them with Cycles, revisiting scaling won't be a lot of work in comparison).
Among the possible change of scope, what I would like to achieve is a relatively high visual consistency between fields, combat, and FMVs. That is not like it was made in the original game, but I do believe the visual discrepancies from the original were mostly due to technical limitations rather than artistic choice. For that matter, Square tried to address this issue in their following iterations of the franchise (fields and battle models were the same as early as FF VIII - and gradually they tended to try to match field with FMVs).
One other thing: our work (at least mine) on pre-rendered background won't be compatible with the concept of a dynamic camera, for 2 reasons: a/ so far I have been working with no restrain on poly counts whatsoever. The modelling logic behind making objects which need to be displayed dynamically would be totally different (and probably imply more work). b/ Things which are off camera on the fields need only a very coarse modelling/texturing (they only interact on the basis of their reflection and shadows, so no need to spend much time on that). If you want to model entire districts like in current open world games, it's a completely different ball of game.
As one last remark, I would like to reiterate that if TA's job is to make strict HD replicates of original fields, your own project would make TA's endeavor rather pointless (not blaming you there, your work is pretty awesome).
So I'll put it plainly: if you feel like my vision is a departure from the original scope, then I would very much like to change the scope. Now the questions would be: Do I need someone's green light to proceed (most likely SpooX's, but who else?)? If so, is it necessary to create a thread to discuss about it?

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #348 on: 2014-08-09 19:40:38 »
Have any in-game screenshots to compare?

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] WIP Sector 5 slums
« Reply #349 on: 2014-08-09 23:32:05 »
I haven't found a way to take in-game screen captures while running on full screen (if anyone knows how to, I'd appreciate some tips). The best I would recommend so far would be for you to check out some completed works I made, and do the test yourself.