Author Topic: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers  (Read 23128 times)

Kaldarasha

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #25 on: 2013-08-30 07:27:48 »
You need to talk to the old fat guy in front of the honeybee to start the quest.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #26 on: 2013-08-30 15:56:00 »
You need to talk to the old fat guy in front of the honeybee to start the quest.
Really?  :-[   I simply forgot to do it, how did I miss that? Shame on me for blundering that badly, that was quite the derp moment.
And thank you for the tip, which was unfortunately needed.

cmh175

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #27 on: 2013-08-30 17:46:15 »
Here's the game save compilation. Has more or less every single event bookmarked, it's great for testing stuff like this. You'll need to use the readme to figure out which save and file to use though, the saves are in Spanish I think. 

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=8880.msg115218#msg115218

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #28 on: 2013-09-04 02:31:41 »
Hi folks,

After quite a bit of tinkering, I got that field layered, animated, reloaded into Palmer. I uploaded it in the WIP repo, given that they were made with temporary lighting setup (one that gives me a decent picture after a few dozens of samples). The final version with real lighting will take ages to render, so it will be delivered in approximately 2 weeks (because I have to render each frame of the sewage flow). In the meantime, you're more than welcome to give it a try. It comes in 3 .png files that can be found under /Field Scenes/colne_b3/.
For people who don't have access to the repo, I've uploaded a 50% size version open to everyone, if there are other people willing to try it out.
http://imageshack.us/a/img818/5070/vqum.png has to be renamed colne_b3_00_00.
http://imageshack.us/a/img401/6245/9gf5.png has to be renamed colne_b3_01_00.
http://imageshack.us/a/img843/9288/8cbh.png has to be renamed colne_b3_02_00.
These images simply need to be placed in /mods/<modpath>/field/colne_b3/ within your Final Fantasy VII directory.

Some side comments about getting that field to work: for that scene, it was not really straightforward. The big problem here is the absence of control on the overlaying process. Each layer is cut in a pre-established manner, so if there is something you want to overlay but falls outside the boundaries of how the layers are cut, then it cannot be done (unless somebody has a solution for it?). For example, if you compare the image below (50% render size) with what I previously rendered (see page 1 of this thread), I eventually had to mask the outflow of the sewage (bottom right corner of the image) because otherwise this section gets badly cut out. I also wanted to place a wooden plank across the bottom of the canal to "show" the end of the walkmesh (which I did eventually), however my first attempt were about placing that plank slightly more upstream and place it in a layer lying "above" the character. However, the "upper layers" were automatically cut out in such a way that the plank wasn't displayed. So I finally had to place the plank so that it wouldn't look like Cloud would step over it. I also had problems with the layering of the stairs, and it also turned out that the last two steps to the bottom could not be placed in an appropriate layer. I simply left those steps only in the bottom layers. I guess the way it's set up now is pretty much the best that could be done.



Another note I'd have is about the animation. As it is, there are 8 frames to play the animation of the flowing sewage. It takes about 1.2 seconds for the animation to loop. In my Blender fluid sim, I have 25 fps. Consequently, I chose to build the 8 frames animation by picking 1 Blender frame out of 4. It may be a bit "choppy" (as was the original game), but I think it "loops" better when returning to the first frame of the animation. Something I was wondering: would there be a way to expand the number of frames for such animation? It may be way outside what Palmer can do, but would it be possible at all? At this point, that last question is rather a matter of curiosity. In the same trend, I wonder if there's a way to modify how the overlays are cut out (with respect to my problems to arrange all the layers).

Anyway, I'd be happy if some people could try this WIP and give me some feedback  :)
« Last Edit: 2013-09-04 02:49:50 by Mayo Master »

anaho

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #29 on: 2013-09-04 15:11:32 »
1.) Looks good. Ingame layers work and animation is good. I saw no glitches whatsoever.

Edit: After seeing it ingame it is probably the easiest way to just rerender it at higher settings and leave the work to the computer.

(2.) Obsoloete : Why not render the water flow seperately in Internal and just comp it together? I dont think it is worth rendering a real animation of that anyway given the choppy nature of embedded frames in game. I mean I am all for quality but what you try to do seems just not worth the time and energy ( and to think you would have to do this again in case you have to alter something ....))
3.) I dont know how long this took you to render but the "noise-free" renders from Mideel took me 15 minutes and 45minutes in 4x4 resolution on my computer for a single frame with no layers. Doing them on a 2600k would probably have taken 8 times as long.  But they were not really optimised for speed anyway.
4.) IF you decide to do the water in internal, you no seem to no longer have any transparent object in the scene. You can then set transmission and transparency bounces to 0 to begin with. And set the min and max bounes to the same value like 2 and see what happens.
5.) How is this scene lit? I guess it is just two lights. But did you stick them inside the lamp objects? If so, that is likely to be a sure contributor to noise.
« Last Edit: 2013-09-04 15:59:06 by anaho »

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #30 on: 2013-09-04 16:30:57 »
1.) Looks good. Ingame layers work and animation is good. I saw no glitches whatsoever.

Edit: After seeing it ingame it is probably the easiest way to just rerender it at higher settings and leave the work to the computer.

(2.) Obsoloete : Why not render the water flow seperately in Internal and just comp it together? I dont think it is worth rendering a real animation of that anyway given the choppy nature of embedded frames in game. I mean I am all for quality but what you try to do seems just not worth the time and energy ( and to think you would have to do this again in case you have to alter something ....))
3.) I dont know how long this took you to render but the "noise-free" renders from Mideel took me 15 minutes and 45minutes in 4x4 resolution on my computer for a single frame with no layers. Doing them on a 2600k would probably have taken 8 times as long.  But they were not really optimised for speed anyway.
4.) IF you decide to do the water in internal, you no seem to no longer have any transparent object in the scene. You can then set transmission and transparency bounces to 0 to begin with. And set the min and max bounes to the same value like 2 and see what happens.
5.) How is this scene lit? I guess it is just two lights. But did you stick them inside the lamp objects? If so, that is likely to be a sure contributor to noise.

1. When I was working on getting the layers right with Palmer and testing them in game, I was using 5x5 resolution renders (When you tried these files, did you try those from the repo or those open to everyone?). It still needed quite a bit of tayloring with gimp to cut them out properly and have them not glitch, because of the cuts you have no control over.
2. I mean to render the flow with Cycles. I am pretty happy with how I managed to set up the foamy mud flow material, I don't think I can replicate that with Blender's internal, and I don't feel like discarding that.
3. How many samples did you need for a noise-free image on 4x4 resolution?
4 and 5. I tried to launch a render last night using "real lights" but the picture was remaining fairly noisy after 5000 samples. As you guessed, the light sources where stuck inside the lamp objects, which themselves had "glass" surfaces to let the light out. And as you guess, this setup cannot work with a reasonable amount of samples. I switched back to a setup where the light source is the "glass surfaces" of the lamp objects, and it reduced noise drastically (I made tests where the picture was already decently sharp only after 10 samples), so I think I should be good with that later setup. I have a bit of tweaking to do but hopefully I should start the proper renders tonight.
Overall I won't mind if the renders take 10-20 hours each or so, I'll just let the computer to work overnight.
« Last Edit: 2013-09-04 16:47:47 by Mayo Master »

anaho

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #31 on: 2013-09-04 17:35:28 »
1.) I was testing the 640 version posted above. Granted, the resolution is not the best to judge and I play the game from 2 meters away from my CRT monitor (not TV), so maybe I should check again the high res version.
2.) I can understand that as it looks great the way it is.
3.) You must know this is dependant on your scene and especially your lighting setup and cannot be generalised. Materials also come into play but I am 99% sure that they wont be a problem in your scene as everything seems more or less noisy to same amount of degree. But Itmin 2 resulted took 750 samples to converge. Itmin 1 lighting was worse and it took 1000 samples and I had to render at twice the res to get rid of persisting noise. This helps if you have bad lighting it it never converges. Render twice res and scale down. But to give a number, most people would argue that even 1000 is overkill and should already be very smooth. 5000 is just killing it - especially for animation.
4.) How many samples did the version posted above version have ? If it is in double digits range then I guess you have optimised it reasonably well.
« Last Edit: 2013-09-04 17:41:07 by anaho »

Aali

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #32 on: 2013-09-04 17:52:52 »
It's certainly possible to change up all of the tiling, animations and what-have-you and it would even be possible to create an automatic tool that spits out a suitable set of tiles from a render, its depth buffer and a walkmesh. It is a huge undertaking though and in the end all you get is a tool that modifies a horribly outdated format designed for the PSX and shoe-horned into 90's PCs. It's probably easier to change how the game renders field scenes.

anaho

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #33 on: 2013-09-04 19:10:36 »
I would remove that red can in the lower left because it totally looks like a red materia if you dont zoom in.
But the layers work perfectly even in the hires version.
« Last Edit: 2013-09-04 19:22:48 by anaho »

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #34 on: 2013-09-04 22:43:00 »
3.) You must know this is dependant on your scene and especially your lighting setup and cannot be generalised. Materials also come into play but I am 99% sure that they wont be a problem in your scene as everything seems more or less noisy to same amount of degree. But Itmin 2 resulted took 750 samples to converge. Itmin 1 lighting was worse and it took 1000 samples and I had to render at twice the res to get rid of persisting noise. This helps if you have bad lighting it it never converges. Render twice res and scale down. But to give a number, most people would argue that even 1000 is overkill and should already be very smooth. 5000 is just killing it - especially for animation.
4.) How many samples did the version posted above version have ? If it is in double digits range then I guess you have optimised it reasonably well.
In the above version, the big "fill" light makes it very easy to have a noise-free image. It took only 50 samples, so I suppose it's doing pretty good. With dimmer light (as in the final version) I'll really need to ramp up the number of samples.
It's certainly possible to change up all of the tiling, animations and what-have-you and it would even be possible to create an automatic tool that spits out a suitable set of tiles from a render, its depth buffer and a walkmesh. It is a huge undertaking though and in the end all you get is a tool that modifies a horribly outdated format designed for the PSX and shoe-horned into 90's PCs. It's probably easier to change how the game renders field scenes.
Thanks for the info. I'm guessing it would be too much pain to go through such an endeavor given the benefits we would get from it. Anyway, it will take us so long to make all the scenes that maybe somebody will show up with an alternate game engine that could handle these fields as 3d environments :P
I would remove that red can in the lower left because it totally looks like a red materia if you dont zoom in.
But the layers work perfectly even in the hires version.
I didn't think that could be a bother. I'll keep the can, just change the color of its side.

By the way, for the sense of scale of the items in a scene, I recommend the use of Kaldarasha's unshaded models. It's of a greater help than chibis in my opinion.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #35 on: 2013-09-12 06:26:16 »
While the "real" renders of colne_b3 are being made, I started to work on the other sewer scene. It was a bit difficult to get the camera right (it's one of the few exceptions where SpooX's script doesn't work that well) but I eventually got it (did a bit of match photo with Google Sketchup). I only just started the modelling. 

Funny, it's kind of "Back to where it all began" since it's the same scene I tried to model with Sketchup one year ago, as my earliest attempt to contribute.
By the way, I intend to reuse the texture I made for the previous scene. Not only it will make both environments consistent (which is actually not the case of the original images), but that should also speed up my work.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #36 on: 2013-09-17 14:51:21 »

All renders for colne_b3 are completed, and layered  :D
I'll import them in Palmer and then upload the moded scene to the repo tonight. This one is well and truly finished (until we decide to aim at 4K resolution  :P ). In the meantime, here's the base layer as a "sample":


I'm also making good progress on the other sewer scene (colne_b1), I hope to post an update soon.

[EDIT - UPDATE]: I've uploaded the Full Res (5x5) field images to the Repo of the final versions, under Fields/colne_b3. The images colne_b3_00_00, colne_b3_01_00 and colne_b3_02_00 are to be placed in <modpath>/field/colne_b3/.
I have also made a 50% size (2.5 x 2.5) open to everyone. You'll find the images on the links below (again to be placed in <modpath>/field/colne_b3/):
http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1145/w34r.png has to be renamed colne_b3_00_00.
http://imageshack.us/a/img89/2922/suma.png has to be renamed colne_b3_01_00.
http://imageshack.us/a/img38/3136/5j84.png has to be renamed colne_b3_02_00.

Please have a try, and enjoy!
« Last Edit: 2013-09-18 03:23:26 by Mayo Master »

sl1982

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #37 on: 2013-09-19 18:13:06 »
Ooh 4k. Anyone have a 4k monitor yet?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4


Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #38 on: 2013-09-21 16:39:05 »
Here's a small progress update on colne_b1. In fact, it can show you that the sewer scenes will be 4K ready. By the time we can reach completion of this project, probably 4K or 8K will be the norm :P



(The target on the image is just Blender's cursor).
Credits to my girlfriend for the image on the poster, especially since drawing the guy made her shiver with disgust  :P

LeonhartGR

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #39 on: 2013-09-21 21:38:10 »
Well done for the GF! I love handmade drawing!

sen

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #40 on: 2013-09-22 01:31:26 »
4k, 8k? The file size will be immense :o 1080p is good enough imo

Cyberman

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #41 on: 2013-09-22 14:58:19 »
4k, 8k? The file size will be immense :o 1080p is good enough imo
I think you might be a bit confused. The rendering image resolution is different than the background bitmap resolution. None of the backgrounds are 320x216 for example but instead might be 512x272. The background consists of tile sets and the background is generated by using these tiles to make up the background layers (on the Ps1 it was done in real time as  the screen panned) The actual screen was 1 block (16pixels) wider both vertically and horizontally to allow the tiles to be added on the edges I believe (I could be wrong however).

Anyhow the actual resolution they are talking about is the background resolution not the screen resolution. Of course that affects how 'good' it looks on the screen in the end.

Anyhow I could be wrong but I think that is what they are talking about.

Cyb

sen

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #42 on: 2013-09-22 18:06:39 »
I see... i think :o ;D
Well if it doesn't affect file size then great :)

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #43 on: 2013-09-23 05:53:34 »
First I would like to clear things up, regarding resolution and image sizes...
Given that we want to play in HD, we do need to deliver images that are (theoretically) 4.5 x 4.5 larger than the originals. To round the figures, we aim at 5 x 5 resolution (some argue that 4 x 4 may be enough at this point, though). As Cyb mention, many images exceed the original 320 x 216 size. Mostly, these correspond to fields where moving characters scrolls through a scene (the background image needs to be larger than the screen). The "field textures" which result from the Palmer process, those which are to be used as mod files, are squares which are 5 x 5 (or 4 x 4) times 216 x 216. If a background is particularly large (or if there are animations), one field is eventually made with a combination of several square field textures.
I was wondering that, by the time we may be remotely near the completion of this project, 4K displays may actually be the norm. In that case, it would still be possible for us to generate 4K compatible backgrounds, provided our current scenes offer enough detail. The only thing to change on our end is the render size (9x9). Hopefully computational power will increase to an extent that would allow us to make these renders in a decent amount of time. Inevitably, if you want to play at 4K resolution, the size of all field textures will have to be 1944 x 1944 (versus 1280 x 1280 that I currently deliver).   
By the way, as an anecdote, I am using very high resolution textures to make the colne_b1 scene. One of them is about 14000x2000.

Anyway, I also wanted to make a progress update on colne_b1, I think I manage some decent progress fairly quickly. I hope you'll enjoy.

 

Cyberman

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #44 on: 2013-09-23 21:07:40 »
About 4K displays, it is extremely unlikely they will be the norm.

I had a long diatribe typed up regarding this but let me clue you in 4K is a lie.
What I mean is it is just yet another thing you don't need. In fact you can't even use 4K 2560 is actually at the resolution limits of the physical eye. You might see a LITTLE bit more on a 4K monitor IF you are younger than 20 years old and you are 1 out of 10 people with REALLY GOOD eyesight.  If you are starting to understand what I am saying, you will also have to realizes that 4K also requires a detailed analyisis and video editing to make the video actually visually discernable at that resolution (meaning they have to play with spectral and lumanance output very carefully to force your eyes to actually see ANY DIFFERENCE).

That's the truth, others will tell you something else however it is only because they want to SELL SOMETHING. Much like the forced move in the US to HD had nothing to do with actually seeing anything better (really the broadcast bands were being adjusted to sell bandwidth of existing TV stations for CELL phone usage MONEY in other words was the motive). Same goes with 4K it's purely someone wanting to make more money off of ... you. :D

If you are truely curious hit wikipedia and look at the information regarding the human eye. In particular look at the eyes response to spectra and intensity. The eye is really an interesting device, it has spectra sensitivity shifts depending on relative brightness, this also affects what resolution you see things at (which also turns into yet another non linearity aspect in your eye). Gamma adjustments on monitors exist for numerous reasons (your eyes non linear response to lumanance and the spectra shift issue I just mentioned for example).

Cyb

Covarr

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #45 on: 2013-09-23 21:25:32 »
In fact you can't even use 4K 2560 is actually at the resolution limits of the physical eye.
That really depends on screen size, and how far your eyes are from it. The difference between 4K and 2.5K would absolutely be visible to quite a few people on an Oculus Rift, or on a movie screen large enough you can't see the whole thing at once.

4K for a standard 20" monitor, or even a 60" TV at six feet away, is slightly overkill, but it's better to have too much resolution than not enough if you don't want to be able to tell the difference.

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #46 on: 2013-10-04 03:23:44 »
Time for an update!
BY the way, I would agree more with Covarr, it all depends on the size of the display. For that matter, the original FF7 still looks decent when played on a PSP, however if it's displayed on a 40" HD TV it really sucks. Besides, it doesn't hurt to be ready for greater resolution display. Better be ready for a change in case it happens, than feel sorry for ourselves if we hadn't planned for it while having the capabilities to do so.
Anyway, here's the progress update... (this render was made with 100 samples, that's why it's a tad noisy).


So... actually it's very close to completion. In fact most of the remaining job needs to be handled by the computer. It's going to take a while, but it won't need much input on my part and I can start working on another scene. Basically, I'll need to run the fluid simulation and make all the renders (with 7 extra renders for animating the flow). Probably that will take about 3 weeks.
As a side note: I enjoyed using the rigid body simulation for making the pile of junk. Maybe I should make a quick tutorial on it, since it may come in handy for many scenes in the slums (or North Corel).
By the way, has anyone tried to play with my mod of colne_b3 yet?

Kaldarasha

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #47 on: 2013-10-04 04:41:14 »
I even have changed the light for the models.
Original light color:


Altered light color:


It is really amazing to see the new scene in action. Great work!

Mayo Master

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #48 on: 2013-10-04 05:24:58 »
I'm glad you liked it! Actually I have been using your awesome character models to verify the scale of the objects in the scene, they've been really useful.
In fact, I have been wondering how it could be possible to modify the lighting for the 3d models, given the large variety of lighting exposure across the scenes. How did you do that?
 
By the way, do you have access to the full resolution field scene (in the file repository of Team Avalanche)? I made only the 50% resolution open to everyone. If you don't have them, I can send you the 100% resolution field files by email if you wish.

Kaldarasha

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Re: [HD Remake] Midgar sewers
« Reply #49 on: 2013-10-04 06:15:29 »
In Makou Reactor you can change the global light for a model in the field:

The right color of the pallet is the one which is used in a field.
But it's not possible to change the direction from where the light comes from.
Anyway I plan to do it for whole Midgar.

For the moment I'm happy with the 50% resolution. It gives a good preview of what could be done to the backgrounds.