Author Topic: Aeris vs Aerith.  (Read 16445 times)

NFITC1

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #25 on: 2013-08-14 15:16:51 »
I wish I could find a video of this line, it's much funnier that way. :)

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #26 on: 2013-08-14 15:19:29 »
This is unfortunately where a LOT of the problems I've had with people opposed to the translation project come from.  A lot of people refuse point blank to accept any change to FF7, regardless of how big the mistake is.  The reason Aeris keeps coming back time and time again, is because people grew up with it, and want to find any cock and bull excuse to hold onto it, as if it somehow matters to the order of things.  When you consider the sheer magnitude of things that were wrong, and we've corrected, you can see how that would cause the ire that has been directed as the project, and me especially.

People need to just accept that FF7 was deeply flawed with its translation.  The unfortunate thing is that practically all of the mistakes in FF7 have been adopted as "English canon" precisely because the localisers and designers fear an illogical backlash.   The best response I ever saw was someone Luksy pointed me to from online, who was desperately trying to explain how "Midgardsormr" became "Midgar Zolom".  His belief was that it was a "variation".  It killed him to just accept that it was a mistake, so instead he just argued that "anything goes".  This Aerith thing is really interesting too, because quite a few people are accepting the spelling, and then saying "Well, japanese say Aeris, so it must be an s".  :-D
« Last Edit: 2013-08-14 15:22:27 by DLPB »

Cleanshooter

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #27 on: 2013-08-14 15:21:16 »
I can prove that the th is there.  It is there because, as the writers state in Ultimania (page 14 if I am not mistaken), the word Aerith comes from the English word Earth. 

Nice find!  I concede to your point :-X.  However! I still like Aeris better... just like I will forever call people "Spoony bards", yell "Rally-ho" until my throat bleeds, consider Aeris and Tifa the "Midgals", Unleash my "Ungarmax" Limit Break upon my enemies and know the "This guy are sick"...

"Off course" you are right translation errors deserve correction but that's what makes them great.. imho...

"Do, what now?"

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #28 on: 2013-08-14 15:23:22 »
As I've said, I also dislike Aerith, simply because it sounds like a lisp, and Aeris sounds more like a girl's name... but hey ho.  8-)  Where I disagree with you is that you seem to put great stock on the mistakes, and have a kind of major resistance to change... that the correct names are just refused.  It isn't just you that feels that way, a whole lot do.  I understand that there is nostalgia, and that there is something unique about the original game, but a lot of it makes no sense... and imho the corrections generally add to the game, not subtract.

I also think the writers' wishes should be upheld above all other considerations.  I wouldn't want it any other way if I wrote a novel.  Maybe that's just me.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-14 15:27:18 by DLPB »

Captain Epic

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #29 on: 2013-08-14 15:28:25 »
I wish I could find a video of this line, it's much funnier that way. :)

haha - http://youtu.be/ijGQAeIKzgc

Dess to Aeris! :-D

This is unfortunately where a LOT of the problems I've had with people opposed to the translation project come from.  A lot of people refuse point blank to accept any change to FF7, regardless of how big the mistake is.  The reason Aeris keeps coming back time and time again, is because people grew up with it, and want to find any c*ck and bull excuse to hold onto it, as if it somehow matters to the order of things.  When you consider the sheer magnitude of things that were wrong, and we've corrected, you can see how that would cause the ire that has been directed as the project, and me especially.

People need to just accept that FF7 was deeply flawed with its translation.  The unfortunate thing is that practically all of the mistakes in FF7 have been adopted as "English canon" precisely because the localisers and designers fear an illogical backlash.   The best response I ever saw was someone Luksy pointed me to from online, who was desperately trying to explain how "Midgardsormr" became "Midgar Zolom".  His belief was that it was a "variation".  It killed him to just accept that it was a mistake.

I can imagine your frustration. Sadly, most people hate change; they refuse to accept any alteration to what they grew up loving, even if that change is for the best (a higher quality, more accurate translation). It's actually the same situation with Star Wars - There are swarms of people who refuse to accept any change to the original trilogy and call all of the remakes/remasters "betrayals" to the originals. Things like this happen all the time.

"Spoony bards"

The greatest translation of all time :-D


Cleanshooter

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #30 on: 2013-08-14 15:31:33 »

One other thing is the fact that "Sephiroth" uses the "su" ending as well. Why is "Aeris" okay, but not "Sephiros" ? Both endings are pronounced the EXACT same way. There's also no "l" sound in Japanese and they just use "r" for it, so why can't her name be "Aelis"? :-D

It's safe to say they wanted the "th" sound, considering that's how loan words work in Japanese.

I also find it intriguing that you're happy with spelling her name the same way Japanese people pronounce it yet you don't like the Japanese pronunciation of Mako and instead use a different way of saying it  :P

Very interesting information about loanwords (I learned something today!).  How funny would it have been if they called him Sephiros.  SE-FEAR-OS it sounds like a good bud guy name, not as scary and Sephiroth but... 

I think the mako thing was just one of those thing were that's how you said it when you were 14 so that's how you want to say it now.  You're right of course that it is incorrect. 

I think I'm with DLPB on this one though that is just sounds more like a girls name when it's spelled Aeris but hey ho...

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #31 on: 2013-08-14 15:33:43 »
I'd say the changes to the trilogy really did fern it up though a lot of the time :P  Especially adding "NOoooo" to Darth in Jedi haha (if that is true...).

Lucas changed his mind about Anakin too... originally, he was a good friend of Obi Wan's who piloted ships.  The idea, I think, was that he was already much older than a child when they met (in fact, I am sure of it.  Obi Wan hardly said "Your father was already a great pod racer when I met him").  Lucas updated the graphics too in Jedi to dub in the head of the new Anakin actor.  I thought the original trilogy was much better than the meddling Lucas did after, but... well... he's the writer, or at least was the owner.  Still think he's done a really shitty job with Star Wars since the trilogy though.  :-D  Problems of that kind generally come about when a writer decides to make prequels, change ideas , and then has to update the original content to fix the discrepancies...

This is one of the reasons I dread a remake of VII. I have a horrible feeling they'd plant in crap about Genesis and so forth, and change too many things from what it was.  Not to correct problems, but to revise the game... and imho the whole genesis thing and the prequels/sequels are crap.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-14 15:42:40 by DLPB »

Captain Epic

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #32 on: 2013-08-14 15:44:13 »
Very interesting information about loanwords (I learned something today!).  How funny would it have been if they called him Sephiros.  SE-FEAR-OS it sounds like a good bud guy name, not as scary and Sephiroth but... 

I think the mako thing was just one of those thing were that's how you said it when you were 14 so that's how you want to say it now.  You're right of course that it is incorrect. 

I think I'm with DLPB on this one though that is just sounds more like a girls name when it's spelled Aeris but hey ho...

lol, yeah, I don't think "Sephiros" has the same ring to it as "Sephiroth".

I know what you mean; I used to mispronounce everything back when I played the game and it wasn't until much later when I realised I was wrong a lot of the time :)

I also agree "Aeris" sounds better ("Aerith" sounds like Mike Tyson trying to pronounce her name or something).

I'd say the changes to the trilogy really did f*ck it up though a lot of the time :P  Especially adding "NOoooo" to Darth in Jedi haha (if that is true...).

Lucas changed his mind about Anakin too... originally, he was a good friend of Obi Wan's who piloted ships.  The idea, I think, was that he was already much older than a child when they met.  Lucas updated the graphics too in Jedi to dub in the head of the new Anakin actor.  I thought the original trilogy was much better than the meddling Lucas did after, but... well... he's the writer, or at least was the owner.  Still think he's done a really sh*tty job with Star Wars since the trilogy though.  :-D  Problems of that kind generally come about when a writer decides to make prequels, change ideas , and then has to update the original content to fix the discrepancies...

This is one of the reasons I dread a remake of VII. I have a horrible feeling they'd plant in crap about Genesis and so forth, and change too many things from what it was.  Not to correct problems, but to revise the game... and imho the whole genesis thing and the prequels/sequels are crap.

Oh, I agree with you; some of the changes are... questionable, to say the least. But the point is that Lucas was improving them based on his vision (how he wanted them to be), so who are we to say his decisions are wrong? The rereleases of the original trilogy are improvements from Lucas' point of view, but to a large portion of the fans it ruins the films. It just illustrates how people are unwilling to accept change in things they love. Perhaps Star Wars wasn't the best example to use :P

I think VII has promise though; I heard Lucas doesn't have anything to do with the story (I may be mistaken though), so it'll be interesting to see Disney's take on the Star Wars Universe. It could be a great resurrection of Star Wars films, or it could backfire and cause more damage than even Lucas managed with the prequel trilogy :D

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #33 on: 2013-08-14 15:50:23 »
See the thing is with that...  sometimes a story is finished... and done.  And Star wars, and FF7 were done.  It takes a very good writer to be able to do prequels and sequels to a high standard.  I can't see anyone managing to fix Star Wars now... or make it anywhere near as good as the original.  The one thing that MIGHT work... would be to set it in the same universe but way in the future... or the past.  That way you could make a completely new and original story.  But hands up who doesn't think they will just milk the original story and characters for all they're worth... again.

Basically... the main problem is that success=profit, and that, for most writers and film makers, trumps quality.  Instead of just ending a movie or franchise, they realise they can make uber millions with crappy additions.  I guess it isn't all their fault... I mean, people keep buying it so.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-14 15:52:03 by DLPB »

Timu Sumisu

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #34 on: 2013-08-14 15:52:47 »
I can't see anyone managing to fix Star Wars now... or make it anywhere near as good as the original.  The one thing that MIGHT work... would be to set it in the same universe but way in the future... or the past.

So... Knights of the Old Republic?

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #35 on: 2013-08-14 15:57:43 »
Never played it  :oops:  Still can't see them doing anything truly original with the new film.  We'll see.  :P

Captain Epic

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #36 on: 2013-08-14 16:09:02 »
See the thing is with that...  sometimes a story is finished... and done.  And Star wars, and FF7 were done.  It takes a very good writer to be able to do prequels and sequels to a high standard.  I can't see anyone managing to fix Star Wars now... or make it anywhere near as good as the original.  The one thing that MIGHT work... would be to set it in the same universe but way in the future... or the past.  That way you could make a completely new and original story.  But hands up who doesn't think they will just milk the original story and characters for all they're worth... again.

Basically... the main problem is that success=profit, and that, for most writers and film makers, trumps quality.  Instead of just ending a movie or franchise, they realise they can make uber millions with crappy additions.  I guess it isn't all their fault... I mean, people keep buying it so.

I originally thought they were going to set it far into the future, but then I heard they got some of the original cast back! Yeah, it probably will end up a disaster, but I can remain hopeful. It also won't make a difference to them whether it's amazing or terrible, because swarms of people are going to flock to it, regardless ;D

You're right - The film makers aren't to blame; the people who keep buying them are. They have no reason to put so much money and effort into sequels when they know fans of the original story will pay to see it regardless of its quality. We see a lot of this in video games too (the milking of a franchise).

So... Knights of the Old Republic?

This game proves that it is indeed possible to have a great Star Wars story :) I'm personally not a fan of the game myself (not my kind of game), but I think I'd enjoy it if it were a film because the story is good.

But since episode VII is set too close to the events of the original trilogy, it will be more difficult for them to make a great story. KOTOR was set so distant from the original trilogy that they could do what they wanted without worrying about having any effect on the original story, lol.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #37 on: 2013-08-14 17:13:26 »
Final Verdict:  Aeris is preferred, but incorrect.  Aerith is correct, but not preferred. (something we all knew to begin with lol)

Iros

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #38 on: 2013-08-14 19:48:52 »
The main reason for using Aeris I could see is that it is actually a Latin word, and as such sounds natural to many people speaking Latin-derived languages. As somebody else has already said, Aerith soundth like she hath a lithp - because it's not a word sound you expect to encounter often, in English, anyway.

Obviously the developers get to say what is "correct", they're the original authors. Doesn't mean it sounds better in non-Japanese languages. After all, Terra in FF6 is in no way a "correct" translation of the Japanese name (Tina) - it was chosen because it worked better in English, which is no bad thing.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #39 on: 2013-08-14 20:48:29 »
Obviously the developers get to say what is "correct", they're the original authors. Doesn't mean it sounds better in non-Japanese languages. After all, Terra in FF6 is in no way a "correct" translation of the Japanese name (Tina) - it was chosen because it worked better in English, which is no bad thing.
There's a big difference here, though. That change was made on purpose. I can't remember why, offhand, but I know I read an explanation of what Woolsey had in mind. Aeris, on the other hand, was a goof, a change made by accident.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #40 on: 2013-08-14 20:57:21 »
It was an accident in that they didn't have any specific reason we know of to make their decision, but they didn't just pick the name out of thin air - the translators knew that it could have been translated as either Aeris or Aerith. I suppose we don't know that they didn't just flip a coin when originally deciding which one to go with, but it's pretty plausible they picked the one that sounded best to them. It's what they did with other names, after all - we need an English equivalent to this name, these are the options that are reasonably close to the Japanese version, what sounds best?


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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #41 on: 2013-08-14 20:58:39 »
I played the French game before the English one, and, I can say, the mistakes are worse at many points. There's even a dialogue in the game that was left in English. They renamed Cloud to Clad, apparently so it would be better for people who don't speak English. Aeris was left as is (except for an acute accent, making it AĆ©ris) but translation - as far as I know - is way worse. I've always written Aerith and said Aeris, because that's how it should be written and said (Aerisu is the correct spelling, right?), Sephiroth and said Sephiros.

LostWing: I see what you did there.

Damn, Covarr ninja'd me. Son of a submariner you
Damnit Iros did it too.

Iros

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #42 on: 2013-08-14 21:02:13 »
I played the French game before the English one, and, I can say, the mistakes are worse at many points. There's even a dialogue in the game that was left in English.

Wait ... you mean the French version was translated from the English version, not directly from the Japanese? That ... sounds awkward.

Although I guess you can't say that for sure just from that one thing, there could be other explanations?

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #43 on: 2013-08-14 21:05:24 »
There's a big difference here, though. That change was made on purpose. I can't remember why, offhand, but I know I read an explanation of what Woolsey had in mind. Aeris, on the other hand, was a goof, a change made by accident.

The reason was that Tina is an ordinary name for English, but really exotic for Japanese.  That's what I read anyway.  As for the reason it ended up Aeris... well, given the choice between the two, I am willing to bet most people would think that's what the writers intended... but unfortunately, that proved to not be the case.  That's why communication is essential.  If I had been given Earisu (romaji of the kana) and asked to place it into the correct spelling, I would have also gone Aeris on the balance of probabilities.  Unless, S is usually "so" in kana... I am not sure if that's the case, but su can be s for sure anyway.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-14 21:10:02 by DLPB »

Iros

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #44 on: 2013-08-14 21:25:04 »
To be honest - if I'd been translating the game, and the developers had come back to me and said "No, it should be Aerith, not Aeris. Because it's based on 'Earth', right?", then my response would have been "Well, you're the boss. But ... you crazy, man. Maybe that works super well in Japanese, but if you're wanting to imply this name is something to do with earth, then both of those options are rubbish - because they begin with 'Aer', which is basically the root of probably hundreds of words in European languages that are all to do with air. But, you know, if you're stuck on this 'Aerith' thing because that's what you've already decided on, then fine..."

Evidently 'Aerith' is what the writers intended. Of course, there's sometimes a difference between what the Japanese authors decided on, and the impression it makes in English...

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #45 on: 2013-08-14 22:03:51 »
FFVII was first translated from Japanese to English, and then all other official re-translations (French, Spanish and German as far as I'm aware) are translated from the English game. I didn't know that myself before Covarr told me, but that's how it looks like.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #46 on: 2013-08-14 22:07:32 »
FFVII was first translated from Japanese to English, and then all other official re-translations (French, Spanish and German as far as I'm aware) are translated from the English game. I didn't know that myself before Covarr told me, but that's how it looks like.
I didn't know I told you that. In fact, I didn't even know I knew that. It makes absolute perfect sense, but I hadn't thought of it until just now. You sure it wasn't someone else who told you?

DLPB

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #47 on: 2013-08-14 22:19:31 »
It is the case, unfortunately, whoever told you.  Which compounds the problem even further.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #48 on: 2013-08-14 22:40:18 »
Quite sure it was you. I can try to grep logs later tonight.

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Re: Aeris vs Aerith.
« Reply #49 on: 2013-08-15 02:35:24 »
@Iros:  I applaud you sir.

@Vgr:   ;)

Great thread, really.