Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 2036237 times)

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3350 on: 2017-02-10 22:42:14 »
I've made an effort to stop using exclamation marks :P  I haven't even started to remove them yet.  The Japanese script is loaded with them and it's not good grammar.

shikun

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3351 on: 2017-02-10 22:53:25 »
The punctuation is utterly shot to hell in the Japanese version, with the extreme amount of exclamations and ellipses, its very manga in that way lmao. i can keep an eye out for unnecessary !'s and ...'s as well when proofreading as well!

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3352 on: 2017-02-11 05:34:07 »
Tempo function has been reinstated for music AND sound effects, and it works correctly (no pitch change - unlike the Steam version).  Whilst this can now be set using AKAO for field, I don't see any time where it would be needed.

It seems to be only useful for the snowboard minigame, tbh. And I may have got the documentation wrong.  It seems 0 is normal, and 0x3f is the maximum speed. I have further divided this by 2, meaning the maximum speed is + 31%. This sounds to be pretty near what the PSX game was, too. Makou should probably use an upper limit of 0x40.  Although, tbh, anything up to 100 would work good.  But since I'm limiting to 0x40 (and then dividing by 2), so it wouldn't really matter. 
« Last Edit: 2017-02-11 05:41:16 by DLPB »

shikun

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3353 on: 2017-02-11 08:57:47 »
DLPD, i cant respond to messages apparently so ill just answer here: yes, im up for the challenge and yes, i have a good standard of Japanese   :-D

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3354 on: 2017-02-11 09:17:25 »
DLPD, i cant respond to messages apparently so ill just answer here: yes, im up for the challenge and yes, i have a good standard of Japanese   :-D

I'll be sending some info to you later then :)

Welcome aboard.  Let's hope your tenure with us lasts longer than the others :P


I have also just coded back in the PC version to resume the looping sound effects after battle. In fact, I may even add an option if people want effects to continue during battle.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-11 09:41:24 by DLPB »

Shasta McNasty

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3355 on: 2017-02-11 22:08:19 »
Hi all.  Right before the release of R05 I fell behind on keeping up with the posts on this board and only now just got caught up.  As I was reading the back entries, I noticed BahamutSIN asked a question back in late November that I'm not sure was addressed.  I was curious about it too--

Quote
Also, why did you remove the 'hold x in battle to attack' thing? I keep holding the x button and nothing happens, must click it now instead. It's not a big issue, but it was more convenient to just hold x for a quick attack.

My version still has R04 installed and I'm holding off on installing any newer versions until everything gets worked out, so I haven't experienced what he's talking about for myself yet.  But does he mean that, during battle, you can no longer hold down the command select button (i.e. the equivalent of Circle on the PSX Version) to automatically select the command the cursor would have landed on in the battle menu when a character's ATB bar fills up (usually "Attack," unless the Memory option for the cursor is used, in which case it will default to the last choice selected)?  I.e. Are you now not able to zoom quickly through battle by holding down the command select button and not needing to make any additional button presses?

I played Chrono Trigger DS recently and it has a similar hiccup, which was really annoying and disrupted the flow of battles somewhat.  If that's in this version too, do you think it could be corrected to be like how it was before?  It's just one of those little tweaks that would make playing the game WAY more comfortable and convenient.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3356 on: 2017-02-11 22:26:01 »
The problem with it is that it wasn't intended - it was a major oversight that allows for exploitation of EXP.  If they had known about it, it would have been removed.  However, I will remove it when Weapon is not used.  Using Square to move the Highwind is also an oversight - I think very likely for use in testing that was accidentally left in.  I believe it isn't even noted on the operation control help text.  People will no doubt be annoyed when I remove that, too.  But that one has to be removed since it also leads to game issues (like getting through the barrier of Great Crater.  I am definitely removing that one because it is an oversight that leads to more bugs.

brainsolo

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3357 on: 2017-02-11 22:50:57 »
The panning of audio may be a problem though ... For example, Cloud on the right, enemy on the left: When Cloud uses magic, the balance should be to the far right - and the effect itself should be to the far left.  But that ain't what I am seeing.  It seems to be all over the place.

I do audio mixing/engineering as part of my job, and if I understand what you're saying here correctly, I would VEHEMENTLY advise you not to make the changes you're talking about making. Yes, Cloud's SFX would be panned full-Right and the enemies' full-Left... IF the camera were located dead center of the battlefield facing the back wall and the listener were wearing headphones.

Audio panning should be mixed relative to camera position, which is then relative to stereo width (according to physical speaker position). I'm not looking at the game or the code at the moment, but unless something is very seriously wrong with the PC version or the audio sounds way off in some way (reversed, for example), I would assume the pan settings are set up correctly taking into account the battle camera and the most likely speaker setup for the end user, which in 1997 would have been a TV set. Depending on those conditions, battle SFX could be anywhere from 50%-75% in either direction, but by no means approaching 100%.

Adding a dynamic panning function would be good though, as long as you're not panning stuff full to either side where they shouldn't be  :-P
« Last Edit: 2017-02-11 23:05:12 by brainsolo »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3358 on: 2017-02-11 23:06:39 »
I am not changing anything.  I am trying to restore how the PSX version operated - and it looks to me like the PC version isn't doing what the PSX one is.  But I haven't carried out any tests yet; it's just a gut instinct I have.

At the moment, the balance is completely wrong no matter where the camera is.  Even when still, the effects are not correct or consistent in the PC version. Even when still, one effect will happen in right channel when character is on the left - and then the actual connection with the enemy will be on that same side, when it shouldn't be.  And with other magic or attacks, it reverses - or doesn't do it at all.

Either I have incorrectly interpreted how a few of these functions work - or the PC version is broken - or the original code is broken.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-11 23:09:01 by DLPB »

brainsolo

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3359 on: 2017-02-11 23:11:12 »
Well that's fine then. It just seemed like you were talking about panning things 100% to either channel, which as far as I can remember from camera moves should happen extremely rarely if ever.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3360 on: 2017-02-11 23:19:59 »
No no no, that isn't it at all :)  I am just making the point that it isn't doing that even when it should and that the whole balance situation appears to be broken.  The panning value is supplied to the main game sound functions via either absolute value (usually only when centre) or by calculation by the engine.

It's breaking down somewhere.  Looking at it... I'd say by the PC version or original code.  I'm not changing anything - I'm simply passing the balance values to my own sound function.

Quote
253.SetEffect [Channel 11, Balance 132, 058.ogg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
254.SetEffect [Channel 12, Balance 2, 026 [Charge Towards Enemy].ogg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
255.SetEffect [Channel 12, Balance 80, 018.ogg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
256.SetEffect [Channel 3, Balance 82, 022 [Enemy Death].ogg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
260.SetEffect [Channel 11, Balance 132, 058.ogg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
263.SetEffect [Channel 5, Balance 64, 002.ogg]
263.SetEffect [Channel 12, Balance 34, 016.ogg]
263.SetEffect [Channel 3, Balance 36, 022 [Enemy Death].ogg]

Here is an example from the log I have made the game output (0 is left, 64 is centre 127 is right). Balance 132 is changed to 127 because it's gone over the maximum FF7 acceptable value.

It's even possible that transition pans are supposed to happen... but if so I haven't seen any evidence of it. I'll definitely need to check the PSX version.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-11 23:23:33 by DLPB »

brainsolo

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3361 on: 2017-02-11 23:25:33 »
Alrighty, all good :) At any rate, I do remember the battle panning to be mostly correct according to the static camera on PSX and that it never was dynamic, but I could be wrong.

ThunderPeel2001

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3362 on: 2017-02-11 23:40:43 »
I've made an effort to stop using exclamation marks :P  I haven't even started to remove them yet.  The Japanese script is loaded with them and it's not good grammar.

Not meaning to be difficult, but isn't that going against the intention of the original authors? I'm sure it's just as bad grammar in Japanese.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3363 on: 2017-02-11 23:55:10 »
Not really.  The intended meaning remains the same. They are removed in places where they are grammatically incorrect - or totally overused. Correcting grammar isn't something I lie awake at night worrying about - and, in fact, we've corrected other Japanese flaws, such as chocobos having belly buttons.  I exercise a lot of restraint, but there is no way to be 100% faithful without making a 100% flop localization. There are things that I would never do - such as change Cloud's age.  But chocobos having belly buttons is so obviously an error - and so are hundreds of these exclamation marks.   "I know!  We'll go through the tunnel!"  "Great idea, Batman!" "Quick! Head to the bat mobile!!"

Gets really old and silly when it's every single dialogue and sentence. The mood doesn't have to be changed by using them appropriately.

If I were constrained by grammar and by absolute literal translation, this localization would not be worth playing through. It's actually ironic that the most criticism I get is by people claiming I have been too literal (usually by people who have't played through with Beacause but have seen the use of non-canon character names).  ;D
« Last Edit: 2017-02-12 03:13:43 by DLPB »

Shasta McNasty

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3364 on: 2017-02-12 02:58:11 »
The problem with it is that it wasn't intended - it was a major oversight that allows for exploitation of EXP.  If they had known about it, it would have been removed.  However, I will remove it when Weapon is not used.  Using Square to move the Highwind is also an oversight - I think very likely for use in testing that was accidentally left in.  I believe it isn't even noted on the operation control help text.  People will no doubt be annoyed when I remove that, too.  But that one has to be removed since it also leads to game issues (like getting through the barrier of Great Crater.  I am definitely removing that one because it is an oversight that leads to more bugs.

Not to be a contrarian, but are you certain it wasn't intended?  There are several other Final Fantasies where you can hold the confirm button down to speed through battle menus and attack in that way.  I have the original Super Famicom versions of Final Fantasy IV, V and VI on my computer and just confirmed that they all have that control feature, and the other two Playstation Final Fantasies, VIII and IX, also both have that feature (I think ALL the games might have it, actually).  It would seem pretty odd if VII was the only one where they intended not to include it.

Although my guess is that you're right in that taking out that Highwind strafe control will definitely annoy people, that one I get (although they have the exact same thing in Final Fantasy VI for that game's airships (Y button instead of [Square]), so I don't think it's something they forgot to remove from testing in VII as an oversight, and it isn't noted on the operation control help text because there IS no operation control help text, as far as I know-- the game just puts you in control of the Highwind without telling you how to move it.  Just checked two different youtube longplays right when you get the Highwind to confirm).  If it causes a ton of bugs and lowers the enjoyment of the game overall then hey..

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3365 on: 2017-02-12 03:07:42 »
I'm pretty sure that the design team never intended you to be able to use Midgardsormr to gain EXP by leaving the computer on all night, yes :P  Although perhaps the error here is that it respawns.  Still, holding the button does create other issues - such as being able to accidentally proceed without a confirmation of action.  That's usually something a design will avoid.

The game does tell you how to move in the operation list by a guy on the highwind.  The square button is not noted from what I recall, and it seems to me that moving that way is actually aerodynamically impossible. It always struck me as stupid. The Ragnarok in FF8 (and airships in ff9) doesn't have any similar operation either.  But I am definitely removing the square button operation.  I feel it is nearly certainly an oversight - and it definitely leads to further bugs. The Reunion has a goal of eliminating all bugs where possible, so it has to go.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-12 03:10:33 by DLPB »

Shasta McNasty

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3366 on: 2017-02-12 04:46:15 »
Quote
I'm pretty sure that the design team never intended you to be able to use Midgardsormr to gain EXP by leaving the computer on all night, yes :P

True.  I think people deciding to exploit some of the features of what makes up a game are just part of what comes with making a game, though.  It's not like people are actively exploiting a glitch in-game during a normal playthrough (like the W-Item thing), they have to go out of their way to set up something that clearly isn't part of normal gameplay-- leaving their copy of War and Peace on top of the "confirm" key on their keyboard overnight, lol.

There's something exactly like it in Final Fantasy VI too, at the Lethe River.  Probably the people who made the game knew that that the option selection scheme for the river event could likely be exploited by a wily player who wanted to level up fast, but they put it in like that anyway because it didn't matter-- the sequence as it was set up was part of the game and wasn't hurting the experience for anyone; proof of this is that it's never been removed or altered in any of its re-releases while other issues were.  Someone would have to actively be a jackass and go out of their way to juke the game at the Lethe River to take advantage of it, lol.  And if someone really wanted to go that far, then that's just the way they wanted to play the game, there's no point in trying to stop them. It's like people using a cheat code.  Cheat codes don't need to be removed because they don't ruin the experience of the game.. they're cheat codes, they're not part of normal play.  They're there for people who want to have fun playing the game that way, and everyone else just plays normally.


Quote
Although perhaps the error here is that it respawns. 

I don't think it would bother anyone if the respawning was changed to only occur after leaving the area and returning-- doing that sounds like it might be the perfect fix if you really want to get rid of that exploit.  I always hated that it respawned right away myself.


Quote
Still, holding the button does create other issues - such as being able to accidentally proceed without a confirmation of action.  That's usually something a design will avoid.

True but all of the Final Fantasies are like that.  Having that feature is an intent of the creators to make the experience run more smoothly for the player.  Removing it may get rid of the occasional misselection, but it will make the entire game more tedious as a tradeoff.  The creators of the game knew what they were doing and consciously chose to set things up that way to avoid that tedium.  And everyone who uses that feature realizes that there's a risk that if they're too overzealous or not paying attention they could make a mistake.  And that could happen anyway if someone was grinding and pressing "confirm" rapid-fire and looked away for a second to take a sip of their Dr. Pepper and then looked back to realize they made a misselection.  I feel like giving people the choice on how they like to control their game is treating them as adults.  The same as RPGs that include the optional, imperfect "auto-battle" option for people who want to use it to zip through the tedious parts of battle.


Quote
The game does tell you how to move in the operation list by a guy on the highwind.  The square button is not noted from what I recall, and it seems to me that moving that way is actually aerodynamically impossible. It always struck me as stupid. The Ragnarok in FF8 (and airships in ff9) doesn't have any similar operation either.  But I am definitely removing the square button operation.  I feel it is nearly certainly an oversight - and it definitely leads to further bugs.
Yeah.  It's too bad it has to go but I get you here.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3367 on: 2017-02-12 04:51:12 »
I'll add the button confirmation as an option.  I'm still unsure how to proceed with The Reunion.  I've recently worked out how to use "hooks" and so now I can take over entire functions and rework them how I want - just like Aali's DLL does. The question is how much the Reunion exe changes should be external - and how much should just be part of my new dll.  It's conceivable that I will make The Reunion simply part of an option.

Or at least part.  Certainly the frame limiters will all now be fixed using my DLL. Automatically.

Shasta McNasty

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3368 on: 2017-02-12 05:07:50 »
Awesome!  Many thanks for adding that in.  :-D

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3369 on: 2017-02-12 18:12:46 »
I have checked the PSX version (as well as the PSX demo) and the sound effect behavior is the same as on PC. It's mostly designed for a static camera. Magic effects seem to be played centered and clever as they are, they tried to have the camera focused on the effect's sound source. For me would be a workable fix to have the sound set to mono for the battles. That's not a nice solution, but better than have wrong stereo sound.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3370 on: 2017-02-12 18:32:44 »
Thanks for that, Kal. I can force centred sound effects (with stereo).  I'll add it as an option for people.

I think they made a balls of it tbh. The sound balance value itself is always updated, btw...  It's only when the effect is played that it is used.  So it might even be possible to add full transition in.  Assuming it isn't broken too.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-12 18:34:45 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3371 on: 2017-02-12 18:36:03 »
In other news, Charlie Beer / shikun  is our latest recruit (whether he survives the test that, so far, only Luksy has passed, remains to be seen :P ).

Welcome aboard!

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3372 on: 2017-02-14 00:52:58 »
I've been looking at the credit screen again.  I know how to fix the frame limiter there now.  It's always been broken - like the other modules.  problem with this one is that it's completely broken - so without vsync you get a frame rate as fast as your cpu can process. I'm sure most of you have seen this.  Well, that's fixed.  I'm adding all of this code to the DLL. It's going to take me an enormous amount of time to get to grips with all the options I am adding and stuff... but by fuck I will do it.,  :)

The credit screen is still not fixed, though, because now I have to make it look like the PSX version.  Delays and timings and speeds are different.  My OCD won't let me leave it.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-14 00:54:46 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3373 on: 2017-02-14 03:48:27 »
All those hours wasted editing all that sodding assembly... when I could have been using a DLL.  It's been a bit of a hard road to get to this point though!  But we're here.

Rather than handwriting assembly and being forced to use QPC from Aali's driver.... here is the basic frame limiter (more being added to it in time - but this example works fine for 60fps modules)

Code: [Select]
Procedure NewFrameLimiter; stdcall;
Var
  ClockTarget, LoopTime: Int64;
Begin
QueryPerformanceCounter(startTime64);
LoopTime:= StartTime64;
ClockTarget:= round(Frequency64 / 60) - (StartTime64 - LastTime64);


While  LoopTime - StartTime64 < ClockTarget do
QueryPerformanceCounter(LoopTime);


LastTime64:= LoopTime;
End;
« Last Edit: 2017-02-14 03:49:58 by DLPB »

Salk

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3374 on: 2017-02-14 16:51:02 »
Reunion is getting more and more sophisticated.

I am looking forward to version 0.6!

By the way, congratulations to Charlie Beer for joining the former one-man team! ;)
« Last Edit: 2017-02-15 05:14:31 by Salk »