Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 2036128 times)

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3400 on: 2017-02-24 11:18:10 »
You don't have to bug report the 7H version right now. The catalog uses an older version because I am holding off on updating until R06 is released. After that, we can start bug reporting.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 11:26:10 by EQ2Alyza »

Rekhaizen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3401 on: 2017-02-24 11:24:39 »
I would, however, love to hear an answer to my question. Roughly how many Japanese characters would you estimate the game has?
If your concern is whether there are "enough Japanese characters" in the game to warrant keeping the names of the items you mentioned intact it's irrelevant because they are inherently Japanese in nature. Along with any others that have retained their Japanese descriptor in Beacause. This is backed up not only in how they are written, but by artwork/renders from the developers themselves.

Omamori - http://shillatime.org/finalfantasy7/accessory/amulet.jpg
Hachimaki - http://shillatime.org/finalfantasy7/accessory/headband.jpg

There is no official art/render of the サイン色紙 key item, but 色紙 are not simply paper one signs an autograph on. They're certain kinds of boards or paper that originally have been used for calligraphy, but now see a variety of uses in the modern day: parting messages, illustrations, and including autographs [from celebrities/famous figures].

Some words or ideas from other cultures you can't just  translate to to whatever closest resembles it in your own. I can recall DLPB and Luksy going over this very issue a long time ago. Whether it was this thread or the old one I forget. Should Beacause change the Sushi Plate meal in the Wall Market to Rice Roll or something to that effect because it isn't distinctly clear to an English player or one not familiar with Japanese cuisine?

As for your worries of unnecessary word changes due to being synonymous, or losing intent or flavour... Last Elixir, Bomb, Pike, Rod, Hammer, and Neck Hunter are literally that when you translate the katakana. The question here isn't why they were changed for the sake of it, but why did the original localization change them at all?

I don't know why this is still a topic of contention as DLPB has defined his rubric countless times before. I can't defend or explain every outlier case that doesn't follow it (ex. Hyper to Stimulant), but the vast majority do. Remember, the project isn't intended to outdo the flair or pizzazz of the original localization. The actual relocalization aspect of Reunion applies mainly to the dialogue anyway. Everything else: terms, weapons, names, etc., has already been explained to take a more literal approach.

I understand your concerns, as I was originally on that boat before, but you have to face that's just how it stands. If all else, you can always revert the things you dislike with the appropriate tool as suggested before. I know someone has done so with Green_goblin's PS1 port of Beacause on RHDN.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3402 on: 2017-02-24 12:27:31 »
@PetrucciJohn:  Yes, that's an error. The Reunion Database (see first post) logs all such errors, but this one is a new one.  I have added it.  Thank you for your report.

@Rekhaizen: Thank you.

@ThunderPeel2001: I will respond to your remaining points now.  But first I want to say that I do not understand or fathom one bit why you would be critical of terms that you have a choice to use.  That does not seem at all logical to me.  You knew already that certain item names and character names were completely optional and yet still used those default names as a basis of attack?  I really don't understand.  If someone is giving you the option of different coloured shoes and you attack the store manager for offering you shoes in colours you don't like, that wouldn't be at all rational.

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Eg. Hyper becomes the very literal and dull "Stimulant"

Whether it is "dull" is an opinion.  But here's the problem with your argument: The opposite item (the one that causes Sadness) is Tranquillizer.  "Hyper" is not near the opposite of a tranquillizer. It's been plucked from nowhere. Try and get "Hyper" from 興奮剤. It makes no sense and is a bad localization - even if you personally think it sounds better. Again, if we carry on down that road, we can change anything to be anything, which is not the purpose of this retranslation.  I absolutely dread the disaster this would have been if someone else had done it - It is little wonder to me that nearly all fan based retranslations are a total meltdown. Picking and choosing when to apply your own criteria based on "sounds better to me" is a no-no.

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"Bomb's Fragment" (shrapnel is the perfect word for this)

Except that this is a fragment from the ENEMY called Bomb, which the Reunion Database notes.  So no excuse. Do you think I'd force such a literal term if there wasn't a damn good reason?

Your other criticisms of "changing for the sake of it" are not valid, because the items were not changed for the sake of it. There is always a reason - even if to be in-line with the original Japanese, actual real life weapon or item, or other logical reason.

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I should really reserve judgement until I feel brave enough to actually try the translation for myself.

Yes, you really should.  I wouldn't dream of criticizing something I hadn't even played. I also don't understand why you would have to be "brave" to try our relocalization.  The original is always going to be there, and you aren't avoiding sniper fire in Afghanistan.

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So feel free to ignore me (I actually fully expect you to, you must have responded to these sorts of comments hundreds of times by now).

I can assure you, all further questions of this nature will be ignored :P

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I do have one question I'd love for you to respond to, though: How many Japanese characters did FFVII have?

Luksy will have to answer this. as I don't know.  I recall the English version had text around the same length as Return of the King.

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I wonder if we could Kickstart a fund to have Alexander O Smith do a proper translation...

I sincerely doubt his relocalization would be all that much better than ours, despite the fact he is a professional.  That's not being big headed, it's just a fact that we've done a very good job, and some errors take an enormous amount of research and playthroughs.  I doubt he'd do a perfect job.  He didn't on FF8 by a long chalk (the ending boss battle dialogue is beyond rubbish). He'd do things better than us - but also things worse than us.




« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 14:48:01 by DLPB »

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3403 on: 2017-02-24 13:41:24 »
Except that this is a fragment from the ENEMY called Bomb, which the Reunion Database notes.

I'm curious, was it a conscious choice to use "Bomb's Fragment" rather than "Bomb Fragment"? The former sounds a bit odd, like it's a fragment belonging to (a) Bomb, rather than a fragment of a Bomb. I could see it working in a sentence ("Here, have a Bomb's Fragment") but on its own it looks strange. Maybe that's just me.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3404 on: 2017-02-24 13:49:22 »
Beacause there is no way to know it belongs to Bomb without "Bomb's".  Plus ボムのかけら means literally "Fragment of Bomb".

If anyone can give me a way to explain that this is a piece of the enemy Bomb that's better than what we have, I am all ears. The problem is it's just an item name - and has to be concise.  Even now it's still not obvious that this is the enemy  Bomb.

It does seem that other FFs have called this "Bomb Fragment" http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bomb_Fragment

But I think that's even less clear - so I'll stick with Bomb's.  Bomb is a living being - so the fragment belongs to it.  There is also "Bomb's Right Arm". Changing it to "Bomb Right Arm" would equally make no sense.

This is another thing @ThunderPeel2001 needs to take into consideration.  The FF canon is ironically what we've used and Shrapnel is not (because Baskett didn't know it was part of the enemy).
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 16:36:40 by DLPB »

whgang99

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3405 on: 2017-02-24 15:14:41 »
It's a Japanese character too with a different meaning - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%87%B6#Japanese

凶 (hiragana きょう, romaji kyō)
ill fortune

"Ill fortune."

See The Reunion Database (link on first post)

It is an ill fortuned attack because the attack can inflict paralysis.
Thanks. I never knew it had such meaning in japanese. (and also that it inflicts paralysis)

PetrucciJohn

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3406 on: 2017-02-24 16:28:05 »
You don't have to bug report the 7H version right now. The catalog uses an older version because I am holding off on updating until R06 is released. After that, we can start bug reporting.

Apparently it was an overlooked error. Here's hoping to v6 soon so that you can update it in the catalog!

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3407 on: 2017-02-24 16:30:12 »
There have been an abnormal amount of those type of errors, many of them were found by a professional book editor who also used software to find them.  The human brain is insufficient.  I thought after his check that there wouldn't be anymore - but there are always surprises.

The human brain is awful at noticing double words and missing prepositions and conjunctions—especially when the error is between lines.

Covarr did a full proof check and is extremely proficient in English.  I did more than one check. A professional book editor used software (and I have forgotten who it was  >:().  I've just had to accept this.  ;D
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 16:38:57 by DLPB »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3408 on: 2017-02-24 18:19:11 »
I am going to disable Aali's frame limiting in favour of mine, since it also limits every other module too.  Actually, Aali's driver has already got everything it needs to limit all other modules... he just didn't disable the limiter they use. Would have taken him about 10 minutes, so it's kind of weird he never got round to it.  Oh well.

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3409 on: 2017-02-24 20:31:29 »
[...]Neck Hunter are literally that when you translate the katakana. The question here isn't why they were changed for the sake of it, but why did the original localization change them at all?
Because it's localisation. With the English names transcribed into katakana the people who choose the names might not even have a good idea of English. "Evil Wrap" (or Ibiru Rappu) might sound good to a Japanese audience but "Bad Wrap" far exceeds it as a good name for an English ear. The puns! Neck Hunter is another fair example, because "Head Hunter" barely changes the original meaning and adds in the wordplay.

You might view adding these cases of wordplay as unfaithful, but the Japanese version uses wordplay, and there will be times where that's untranslatable. The pun in ミラージュ on Mirror (ミラー) and Mirrage (ミラージュ) sort of comes across in English, but it's a lot more obvious in Japanese.

Though I won't defend changing サーチアイ to "Scrutin Eye". That pun's just bad.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3410 on: 2017-02-24 20:50:30 »
Sometimes that's true.  But more often than not, Baskett changed them due to either faulty thinking (sword and item names being renamed so an English audience will "get it") or because he simply didn't know any better (such as "Bomb's Right Arm becoming "Right Arm").

There are too many examples of poor translation as opposed to localization choices. Nomura also places the names of enemies on his drawings, so he clearly has a decent grasp of English and certainly wanted them named that way. There's no doubt that some terms are from a lacking understanding of English, but it isn't for me or anyone else to start riding roughshod over their wishes. That's not the job of a localizer. Changing Stimulant to Hyper, or Gold Needle to Soft (for example), isn't good localization.  It's simply unprofessional.

That's not counting the numerous mistakes, like Gighee (Ziggy).

I don't share the philosophy of most professional localizers like Alexander O Smith, or Baskett, or Woolsey.  I don't think they have any right whatsoever to interfere with certain things unless they have permission directly from the writers. There's a point where a localizer can cross over from localizing to writing - and it shouldn't happen (Yes, I have also done this at times. In extreme cases).  It's not their job to do that - no more than it is their job to change Midgardsormr to World Snake or Murasame to Village Rain. There is always a bit of grey area, but, for me, there is far too much liberty taking by professional localizers. It even happened with FFX - The Judge - Or, more correctly, Die Richter - becoming Penance.  To name one thing.

We can all argue over Neck Hunter and Head Hunter - but I am fairly certain  the original writer knows the difference between a neck and a head. I didn't consider it at all detrimental to use the one that the writer decided on.  On the other hand, I did not use "Super Ultimate War God Supreme Slash" [Omnislash] or "What???" [Enigma]. I agree Head Hunter sounds better, but that's the exact point I am making here.  "Sounds better" is not a good argument.

We HAVE localized.  We've just done it on the side of caution and with respect to the writers as much as possible.  We haven't got the philosophy "Anything goes". We also try to preserve cultural and mythological references as much as possible. That's the key difference.

Edit.  Let me be clear: I am not saying we have no contradictions or that everything we've done is perfect.  There isn't such a thing. But we've stuck to the philosophy I have just mentioned. In my opinion, that leads to far less contradictions and downright oddities that would otherwise creep in.  The changing of Gold Needle to Soft is a great example of what can go wrong when you have a philosophy of playing god with someone else's work. 
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 21:41:57 by DLPB »

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3411 on: 2017-02-24 21:55:05 »
I assume a Neck Hunter doesn't collect necks. I would assume they target the neck, and thus remove the head. A Head Hunter removes and collects heads.

As for Nomura knowing English: Well if we were to follow the artwork Bomb would be "Bom" and Yang would be "Yan". :p

Although yeah, VII has more bad cases than good cases. There have just been a few times I've thought "oh, that's a clever improvement" in amongst the "why just 'Wig'?"s.

This isn't to say there's anything wrong with trying to be as faithful as possible. I expect fan-translations to be more literal than liberal because their only purpose is to give a foreign product to an audience already interested in the source. Professional translators want to transform the product to fit in well with a new English audience. I have to say I didn't think about FFX's or XIII's text and dialogue much when I first played them. It was only when I saw scenes with the original Japanese text and audio compared that I was concerned with the number of liberties been taken.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 21:58:17 by JBedford128 »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3412 on: 2017-02-24 22:01:16 »
If the intent was to show that the enemy collects heads, then I'd be ok changing it.  But there's no way to prove that.  It could equally just be that the creator of the monster wanted it to be original. This enemy could simply slice heads off at the neck.  I dunno - like with 100 other things, we'd need to know what the original creator intended and how ok he is with it being changed.  Even professional writers seldom get that kind of help. Where possible, I've gone with the writer.  But there are numerous examples where I haven't.  But a lot of thought went into when and where to do that. There is a balance at least.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 22:03:28 by DLPB »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3413 on: 2017-02-24 22:10:54 »
Apparently it was an overlooked error. Here's hoping to v6 soon so that you can update it in the catalog!

You were lucky on that one :P

Normally, I don't see DLPB give much attention to 7H reports.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3414 on: 2017-02-24 22:11:53 »
Also, there is already a "Head Hunting" move in FF7. I think it's by an entirely different enemy?

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3415 on: 2017-02-24 22:14:16 »
You were lucky on that one :P

Normally, I don't see DLPB give much attention to 7H reports.

Normally, it's not specific enough that I can see it's an error on my side.  I'll always check text, since it's always very possible that it's my fault.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24 22:23:30 by DLPB »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3416 on: 2017-02-24 22:19:21 »
Yes, and I always encourage users to post in the 7H forum first. If it's an issue with compatibility or an error with the 7H setup, then it has no business being reported in the mod thread. But if it's a specific bug that I can't do anything about, I'll then have it sent to the mod thread.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3417 on: 2017-02-24 22:22:59 »
 8-)  Sounds good!

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3418 on: 2017-02-25 13:59:21 »
If your concern is whether there are "enough Japanese characters" in the game to warrant keeping the names of the items you mentioned intact it's irrelevant because they are inherently Japanese in nature.

Nope. Nothing to do with characters in that sense at all. I'm just interested. The question has absolutely nothing to do with Beacause or DLPB's choices whatsoever, and I only ask because DLPB is in a good position to answer it being the probably the world's foremost expert on the script.

I understand your concerns, as I was originally on that boat before, but you have to face that's just how it stands. If all else, you can always revert the things you dislike with the appropriate tool as suggested before. I know someone has done so with Green_goblin's PS1 port of Beacause on RHDN.

Yep, I'm not interested in antagonising DLBP. I just wanted to share my thoughts as someone who has actually taken the time to analyse and consider his choices, rather than someone complaining for the sake of it, but I don't want to argue about anything and that's why I suggested we just move on. From his responses, it seems I fundamentally disagree with his philosophy towards the translation, and that's not going to change for either of us.

Personally I just wish he'd stayed focussed on fixing things that are confusing for the player and got in the way of the storytelling, and left it at that. (The original item/enemy names still have value to people following guides/walkthroughs, for example.) Instead he's treated this as a completely fresh translation, and that's his prerogative to do so, and I just have to accept it.

I've actually finally installed Beacause and started playing with it, and aside from a few minor matters of personal preference, it's already proving to be a vast improvement. As I said before, I'm incredibly impressed by the attention to detail he's poured into it, and I'm very grateful his translation exists.
« Last Edit: 2017-02-25 14:43:00 by ThunderPeel2001 »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3419 on: 2017-02-25 14:15:48 »
It's already undergoing a proof check of the Japanese text v our retranslation, so things are going to improve further.

ThunderPeel2001

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3420 on: 2017-02-25 19:55:58 »
DLPB, I guess you've seen this bug before? Where a character now goes in front of the menu system during a battle? It happens when Aerith does her Level 4 Limit Break, for example.



The 60fps thing is amazing, and I love the new menu (although I miss Summon instead of Sum) but I can't tell if the camera is slightly crazier or if it's just a z buffer issue that's putting characters infront of the menu system?
« Last Edit: 2017-02-25 19:57:58 by ThunderPeel2001 »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3421 on: 2017-02-25 20:08:38 »
See The Reunion Database before posting bug reports.  Already logged. 

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3422 on: 2017-02-25 20:14:51 »
Ok.

Why did you remove the Quit menu option, btw? As someone who plays over SteamLink this was a VERY useful feature.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3423 on: 2017-02-25 20:21:03 »
It wasn't in the original game and wasn't well implemented either.  Is there a reason why Alt + F4 doesn't work as well?

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #3424 on: 2017-02-25 20:44:04 »
Yes, I play over SteamLink as I just said. I don't have Alt-F4 :( I now have to force close it through Steam. Not the end of the world.

The reason it wasn't in the original game is that you just turned off your PS when you were done. Console games of that era didn't have "quit" options. The PC version should really have a quit option, as you can return to the operating system afterwards, even if it's just for players who don't know about Alt-F4.

Actually that makes me think of one great feature that Reunion could have: Remove the need to press 'X' on the keyboard before playing. Or allow a controller to skip past it. It's a stupid thing they added that makes lives difficult for SteamLink owners!

Edit: One more question. Have you altered Cloud's control in any way from the Steam release? I swear he's suddenly incredibly more difficult to control with an analogue stick. Is it just my imagination?
« Last Edit: 2017-02-25 20:49:48 by ThunderPeel2001 »