Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Tool-The Reunion [R06c]  (Read 1600071 times)

UpRisen

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma: 12
  • Again... AVALANCHE is born again!
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4475 on: 2019-04-03 00:45:30 »
Form is generally used to reference shape or layout "form the clay, THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM, Form up maggots!"

Combine that with critical thinking of "there is no way that this option makes me fill out paper work in the menu" and the use of Form naturally makes sense from a language choice. It means exactly what the option does in game.
Formation would be more clear, but that would stretch the size of the menu box which would mess up other part and thinking about, or just pressing the button, would instantly allow you to understand what the option does.

And before anyone tries to use the "first time player" counter argument for clarity it is irrelevant in this case as they would not know the actual function of it in either case and therefore have no impact on their play experience.

bigsassy

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4476 on: 2019-04-03 01:05:10 »
Combine that with critical thinking of "there is no way that this option makes me fill out paper work in the menu"...
Ok, fair point :P

BUT!
Form is generally used to reference shape or layout "form the clay, THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM, Form up maggots!"
Your first two examples implies "Form" is generally used to change a single character, as opposed to your entire team.  And I think other people would think the same thing (e.g. "What's 'Form' do?  Oh, now cloud is selected.  CAN I CHANGE CLOUD TO HIS FINAL FORM!?").  Ok, all my examples are terrible, but my point is that "Form" doesn't communicate you're performing an action on the team.

But I agree with you that pressing the button would allow anyone to very quickly understand the purpose of the menu item.  "Form" works fine.  And if "Formation" fit we wouldn't be having this conversation.  But I'm not sure the shortened version (i.e. "Form") is a better name for the menu option than "Order".

Anyway, that's my two cents.  I'm going to stop https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding now and get back to lurking...
« Last Edit: 2019-04-03 01:09:41 by bigsassy »

ouchie0kids

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: -2
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4477 on: 2019-04-03 01:18:48 »
9 years in the making of the mod is a very well deserved respect and i apologise that i came a cross as rude, It was never my intention, It just English language is a pain, i'm going to be honest, only reason i can read now is because of this game, i had no interest in letters they just looked like a load of scribble on paper when i was younger, the art and story of what was going on in final fantasy i wanted to know what the characters were saying. so yeah i can guess i was defensive on the subject, I also just got done reading the interview Burke did, which was very enlightening.

also yes that is correct UpRising, but as you stated formation is a very long word, which is why i believe they chose to go with order when they ported it in English, as Form has multiple meanings it can cause trouble for those that don't know English very well, but i also believe the choice of picking order was to make translating it to other countries slightly easier, as i believe the game was translated from Japanese to English, then from English to German, French etc

also thank you bigsassy for what you have put, you explained things much better then i could ever do so is very helpful for me
« Last Edit: 2019-04-03 01:23:22 by ouchie0kids »

LordUrQuan

  • VirtualBox dweller
  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 468
  • Karma: 0
  • LOAD "FF2J",8,1
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4478 on: 2019-04-03 01:43:53 »
Quote
Formation > Order > Form
I haven't done any hacking on FF7, but living next door to Demiforce while he was working on FF2j, one of the things that repeatedly came up (usually with him bursting through my dorm room door ala Kramer on "Seinfeld") was character space limitations getting in the way.  Trying to faithfully translate something like "Death Knight" which required only three or four kanji simply didn't work.  The same issue almost certainly plays a role here... "Materia" is seven characters, and is the widest option on the menu.  Widening that block to fit "Formation" (nine characters) would probably start crowding out the level and limit bars, so then it becomes a question of how to shorten.  Being an adventure/combat game, the term "Order" makes me think "Order of Battle," making it a fitting option.  "Form" on the other hand conjures up images of Vincent's various limit breaks.

Quote
Google translate
Hah!  Wifey (who is not a native English speaker) and I often amuse ourselves with its feeble attempts at idiomatic speech.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4479 on: 2019-04-03 10:54:59 »
Let's clear some things up

1. 9 years is a bit of a misnomer - as much of that time has been filled with long gaps of inactivity as Japanese speakers have lives to lead and thus it's been an on-going process.

2. The "Form v Formation" thing, as others have pointed out, is entirely due to space considerations (the menu looks CRAP having "Formation") .  The very idea you can't learn the odd new word or phrase in a menu is ridiculous.  Also, Order is used on another menu.  I have been very careful and consistent. Do you not imagine that in 9 years I haven't triple and quadruple checked this - and discussed it ad nauseam with the end user?

3. That query and every other query in the last 2 days has been raised before.  It's the reason I specifically do not accept any feedback on non dialogue (and even dialogue feedback is out of the question given I get feedback from Charlie Beer, Luksy, and Covarr - and we'd be here for 1000 years if I started allowing that).  With any professionally made game, you do not have a direct dial up to the author to air your gripes and demand things be changed.

This retranslation is going to be no different from this point on. The only people I will be accepting feedback from are Covarr, Luksy, Charlie Beer, Green Goblin, and Caledor. These people are directly associated with this project.  Although there are a few people on my own discord server that I'd happily discuss issues with.

This thread is not here to ask for changes, or demand changes, or air gripes.  It's here for things that are genuine mistakes.  Spelling mistakes would be considered a bug, for example - as it is factually a mistake - not a preference.

Items in Green (but especially red) in The Reunion Database are up for discussion - IF you have some evidence they are wrong.

tl;dr  This thread is not a wish list and I am long long past accepting requests.

On the plus side, R06 allows the executable (menu) text to be changed from a simple text document in realtime - along with box width changes - so you can do it yourself. I slaved away, so you can come here bitching.
« Last Edit: 2019-04-03 11:08:06 by DLPB »

marsrunner

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4480 on: 2019-04-03 13:48:17 »
Every time I look at this forum to check on the Reunion's progress, I am also nervous that one too many people are going to be rude or demanding of you and you're just going to say "Forget it, I'm only releasing this to the people who have worked on it!" I wouldn't blame you, actually. It must get tedious responding to (or even just reading) questions from people who are jumping in at the tail end and clearly haven't tried to learn anything about the project by just, ya know, reading the actual thread they are replying to. They can't be bothered to read a thread but you are supposed to put in all the time you have, gratis, and continue to answer the same questions over and over again. How do you do it? And why? :)

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4481 on: 2019-04-03 15:50:07 »
There's no danger of that - but I think I am going to have to put a statement on main post explaining the reason why people may be being ignored.

I've got a lot of patience and dedication - but clearly diplomacy is long gone with certain queries.  R06 isn't too far away.   8)

bigsassy

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4482 on: 2019-04-03 20:00:37 »
Items in Green (but especially red) in The Reunion Database are up for discussion - IF you have some evidence they are wrong.
One last thing, then.  You should change the color on the "Form" entry from green to something that shows it's not up for discussion.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4483 on: 2019-04-03 22:48:28 »
One last thing, then.  You should change the color on the "Form" entry from green to something that shows it's not up for discussion.

It's never been in green.  It's always been in White.

Additionally, it even tells you why it's been cut short:

たいけい   "Lit. Battle Formation
[Cut due to space limit]"   Form
« Last Edit: 2019-04-03 22:50:20 by DLPB »

bigsassy

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Beacause - The Retranslation Project
« Reply #4484 on: 2019-04-04 00:51:24 »
When I looked at the spreadsheet entry yesterday before posting it was highlighted green for me.  It's the only reason why I waded into the conversation.  It was a different shade of green, so maybe someone else reading the spreadsheet had highlighted it by selecting the cells?

Anyway, my mistake and my bad :-[

And thanks for all the work on this.  I'm really looking forward to R06.

Salk

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 495
  • Karma: 14
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4485 on: 2019-04-04 08:26:42 »
DLPB,

I, like many others, have been long time fans and supporters of this great project. I know I have not earned or acquired any right to give suggestions or advice but, hoping to not do any harm discussing the Formation/Order/Form choice, I was wondering: could "Lineup" perhaps be a word that may fit well in this case?

Godspeed and thanks for all the work!

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4486 on: 2019-04-04 10:38:55 »
Hi, Salk.

Lineup works - but it's more related to starting members than to a formation.  It's not really a definite direct synonym (in football - starting lineup). Even if you can take it that way, it's no more than a preference over Form. It doesn't make any real difference.

This is moot regardless, because R06 let's you change exe text with notepad.  So people can do whatever they want.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/form

Form is literally correct.
« Last Edit: 2019-04-04 10:41:38 by DLPB »

Salk

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 495
  • Karma: 14
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4487 on: 2019-04-04 15:02:16 »
Hello DLPB,

thanks for your reply. What you say makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.

We are all looking forward to celebrating R06 together once it's out. I know there will be R07 but R06 is a milestone of capital importance.

Cheers!

Perfect Zell

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4488 on: 2019-04-04 15:27:34 »
Yes. Please keep up the good work DLPB and the entire Reunion team. I for one am also very much looking forward to the next release. The previous 2 releases revitalized my interest in modding the PC version of Final Fantasy VII. I empathize with the fact that you have been working on a labor of love for so long and yet, like Rodney Dangerfield, you get no respect.

Bzduras

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4489 on: 2019-04-05 07:00:31 »
I've just registered to say "thank you", Reunion really ignited the long lost love for the series (mostly due to the poor ports that SE is into nowdays) in my heart and I can't be more excited to see R06 in the future.

damerell

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4490 on: 2019-04-05 14:11:17 »
i'm a native British speaker

I'm pretty sure DLPB is also a native British English speaker, and your English is terrible - your posts in this thread have misspelled words, incorrect grammar, run-on sentences punctuated only with commas sprinkled at random, a general lack of capital letters, and so forth. The very expression "native British speaker" is not particularly idiomatic.

... that said, I think "Form" is a bit awkward, too. I know, not taking feedback, but is there room for "Form." making it clear "Formation" has been abbreviated?

LordUrQuan

  • VirtualBox dweller
  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 468
  • Karma: 0
  • LOAD "FF2J",8,1
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4491 on: 2019-04-05 14:34:49 »
... that said, I think "Form" is a bit awkward, too. I know, not taking feedback, but is there room for "Form." making it clear "Formation" has been abbreviated?
Room, yes, but that would make it visually inconsistent (it would become the only choice with a punctuation mark). 

damerell

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4492 on: 2019-04-05 14:56:46 »
Room, yes, but that would make it visually inconsistent (it would become the only choice with a punctuation mark).
I suppose I would say that it would be the only choice with a punctuation mark because it is the only choice that has been truncated.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4493 on: 2019-04-05 15:05:59 »
Again, this is moot. You can change text manually in R06.   8)

Also, Form is a word - it is a synonym for formation and for order / arrangement.

Ver Greeneyes

  • Cool newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4494 on: 2019-04-05 16:39:57 »
Apologies, I can't resist putting in my 2 cents. I think 'form' is only synonymous with ordering / arranging as a verb. Form as a noun doesn't really come close - only definition 10 on Merriam-Webster is remotely similar. Even as a verb it's not intuitive - you can 'form' a line, but only 'form up' really comes close to 'getting into formation'. It's tricky, but I think either 'order' (as in sorting order) or 'lineup' (the starting lineup for battles) would work much better.

youffie

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4495 on: 2019-04-05 16:41:47 »
Hello to all, I was just wandering, I saw there is this Mod out there called Project Omnislash, and I saw that it uses DLPB Reunion Menu and I was wondering
Does it have permission for that ?
Is it another mod but that look exactly like reunion menus ?

Just curious before I download anything, one can never be sure.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4496 on: 2019-04-05 17:20:38 »
Order can't be used - it's used elsewhere.  And, yes, I am using it as a verb - or as a shortened noun.  You guys can use whatever you want with R06.

No matter what you use it is never going to do the Japanese justice -   Battle Formation

Come on, people.  A whole page dedicated to the word Form? This isn't Sesame Street.
« Last Edit: 2019-04-05 20:12:45 by DLPB »

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
  • Karma: 309
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4497 on: 2019-04-05 20:47:34 »
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god.

Shakespeare says case closed.  8)

lucidusatra

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4498 on: 2019-04-05 21:48:22 »
Hey, I love the translation. I just want to report, I checked the "American English" box when I was installing, but I've still encountered a few instances of characters saying "different to" instead of "different from." I wish I'd written down when I saw it the first time, but I know the second time it was Tifa talking to Rufus when you first meet him on top of Shinra HQ. Anyway, it's not a huge deal, I just thought I'd mention it. Is there a way I can go in and correct those lines myself, or do I need to wait for the next version of Reunion?

Ver Greeneyes

  • Cool newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4499 on: 2019-04-05 23:11:05 »
'Form' there means either 'shape' or something like grace/posture, so I'm not sure how it strengthens your case? Anyway I've said what I wanted to say, it doesn't bother me either way.