Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)  (Read 1940778 times)

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7150 on: 2018-08-01 03:12:10 »
Quote
Darkside is an obvious candidate, and Flash could be good for it as it has that nice effect on its animation.

 Maybe Morph could ignore or alter defence of the target (with it's original effect of turning defeated enemies into monsters still in place)?

Yes to both, good ideas. Morph is wasted really, as it's one of the few attack commands that can be paired.. and it's relegated to the most tedious part of the game. Flash all... I've always personally disliked it, it's either overpowered or useless.... feels like a complete waste of skill, prime canidate for a revamp in NT.

Quote
Something that uses MP to boost attack power might be nice, and give a physical damage-dealer something to push their MP toward instead of support magic.

That could be very interesting if done right, could really mix things up and tone down on the monotony of spamming attack/2xcut etc


could "possibly" take a look at mug. I don't know, it's a nice skill I suppose if you just wanna farm items on top of attacking, but personally, I feel it's again a bit of a waste of a skill, especially in NT, where you don't need to worry about farming anything. It's annoying losing steal and accidentally killing a boss because of mug. Personally, I wouldn't lament the loss of mug, if it gave you the ability to add another form of attack that added diversity to the game.

Or going with the "thief theme" I'm pretty sure in some final fantasy you could use a "quick attack" that allowed you to use a regular melee attack at normal damage, but it increased the amount of turns you'd get from it at the expanse of MP. Could maybe try something like that tacked onto mug.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-01 03:24:32 by jugend »

Vaylen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7151 on: 2018-08-01 08:23:35 »
Getting into a bit more detail on offensive options...

Darkside is obvious and a fine addition. Probably a natural pair with HP-Absorb.

Morph at 50% dmg would be a decent early option for Added Cut and make Morphing less painful(Corel Train was so annoying ~.~).

MP-Boost for physicals is a real good idea. Makes MP management an actual thing(Instead of just sticking anything non-mag power related on physical characters without much cost).

An independent materia with an effect like~ "Attack never misses, can hit far away enemies(Not long range, though)". Simple effect, but the kicker would be the stat boni, granting strength/luck at the cost of MP/Mag.
Overall, more command or independent Materia that boosts offensive stats would be interesting:
You'd be encouraged to use stuff like Sense on physical characters due to the stat boons, giving them more to do than smash that Attack command. Shouldn't always come with stat reductions(Or caster-stat reductions), to keep hybrids viable. There is some space to create spells meant for physical attackers, too.

Another possibility would be a seperation between luck-based and non-luck based builds - more attack-effects based on Luck, materia that increases critical hit modifier... While strength builds get consistently more attacks off; Could also create some attacks (partly)based on Dex, vit/spr or even Mag for more diversity. Some nerfs to current multi-hit materia may be in order(For example, 2x Cut lowering crit modifier). Creates a seperation between "fast and weak" and "heavy and big". (Basically Yuffie vs Cid, in terms of offence).

I'll just list some more effects I can think of, which could be used in any way~

Execute(high damage increase vs enemies below certain HP threshhold, based on enemy Max HP).
Stat-Decreasing attacks(Causes physicals to decrease any number of stats by a percentage for a few turns, non-stacking, non refreshing, with some sort of cooldown before it can be re-applied - would be a unique support-space for physicals).
Cover+Counter Command(Relegates a character to take any damage for an ally for a turn, countering 100% with attack; Needs some cooldown system).
Counter-Stance(Causes all allies to counter with Attack for a turn)
No-Effect, stat altering materia
Focus-Command(Drastically increases Critical-Strike chance for next Attack and/or Strength and/or ignores defence).
Taunt (Hit enemy has a higher chance to target the attacker; could be support, independent or command).
Big-Game Hunter(Increase damage vs target with high current health)
Wild Swings(Chance for an additional attack)
Revenge(Increase Attack Power whenever an ally dies)
Limit-Gauge altering effects(As physical attackers rely more on their limits)
Lucky Pill-Effect for a limited time on a spell/command(Usable once per battle)
Rage(Berserks the user for a limited amount of turns).
Added Spell(Chance to cast linked spell with Attack)



Hopefully, some of these ideas find use on equipment/materia  or even innates. I do not know what and what isn't possible to do in this game, so some may just be impossible to implement.


Edit: Just ran into a bit of a problem. Fighting the Zolom to get Alpha, but it never uses it. I did try to get it into low HP, too. Any help would be appreciated!
« Last Edit: 2018-08-01 10:34:13 by Vaylen »

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7152 on: 2018-08-01 18:09:07 »
Quote
Execute(high damage increase vs enemies below certain HP threshhold, based on enemy Max HP).
Stat-Decreasing attacks(Causes physicals to decrease any number of stats by a percentage for a few turns, non-stacking, non refreshing, with some sort of cooldown before it can be re-applied - would be a unique support-space for physicals).
Cover+Counter Command(Relegates a character to take any damage for an ally for a turn, countering 100% with attack; Needs some cooldown system).
Counter-Stance(Causes all allies to counter with Attack for a turn)
No-Effect, stat altering materia
Focus-Command(Drastically increases Critical-Strike chance for next Attack and/or Strength and/or ignores defence).
Taunt (Hit enemy has a higher chance to target the attacker; could be support, independent or command).
Big-Game Hunter(Increase damage vs target with high current health)
Wild Swings(Chance for an additional attack)
Revenge(Increase Attack Power whenever an ally dies)
Limit-Gauge altering effects(As physical attackers rely more on their limits)
Lucky Pill-Effect for a limited time on a spell/command(Usable once per battle)
Rage(Berserks the user for a limited amount of turns).
Added Spell(Chance to cast linked spell with Attack)

These are some cool ideas, but unfortunately as far as I know, to add a new skill, you have to replace one. So it's quite limited in what you can actually add.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of refashioning things like morph/mug/flash all into other skills that could add a lot of utility and diversity to attack commands, or even just tacking on effects to them while keeping the original morph/steal aspect of the skill.

There really is a lot of issues though. The limited amount of attack commands means you'd really want to add commands that would be worth it, and ideally, they wouldn't taper off into uselessness by being greatly outdone by multicut. Not sure how you would go about that though....

The fact that morph/mug can be paired with support materia, could potentially change things though. Maybe a few tweaks to support materia for command materia, could potentially make things a lot more interesting.

And like Vaylen said, counter command as is basically just a worse version of counter, making some tweaks to other command materia, and double pairing it, while increasing the availability of said materia in earlier game, could really open things up. Things like darkside + hp absorb (tweaked hp absorb to 20% from 10%?) , with darkside + command counter.
And like Sega Chief implied, if you could do something where you expend MP for command attacks, then you open up further options with MP absorb/hp absorb etc.
Very tricky to balance though, as you'd essentially be adding in another new element into the game, when it hasn't been balanced for its inclusion.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-01 18:12:56 by jugend »

donkeyswitch

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7153 on: 2018-08-01 19:26:46 »
Hello everybody

I'm having the hardest time on the regular fight in the battle square. I've tried a bunch of different strategies but so far I've only beaten it once. If I focus on damage, the status effects screw me. If I try to protect myself from status effects, then I can't keep up with damage. Does anyone have a strategy or tips to beat this thing? I can usually get to the 7th fight without issue but then I end up dying there 99% of the time.


kamek523

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7154 on: 2018-08-01 19:46:09 »
@Sega Chief. So I started working on an updated enemy item document for the most recent release. I thought I should ask for permission before I continue it. Based on NT v1.5 July 17 2018 Arrange Mode. I'm using the original document as a base and Proud Clod to fix the outdated info. I also decided to add a column for enemy skills. Check it out, let me know your thoughts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MmDYoYU9tnwSEQtX-5covRk4a8Sy87Im8cPGHZu2b58/edit?usp=sharing

Neidhart

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7155 on: 2018-08-01 21:47:51 »
Sega Chief ive got a problem at the Shinra HQ where you have to enter the elevator with Aeris. After pressing the button the fight beginns but the ATB bars doesnt fill. Nothing happens anymore. Its just two elevators how are going down. On one side is my team and on the other side the Boss. Im using the Steam version with 7th Heaven v1.54. Im also using the ff7_bc.exe.

My load order is:
Battle Models - Weapons
Field Models - Objects
Animations
Battle Models - Characters
Battle Models - Enemies
Battle Textures
Field Models - Main Characters
Field Models - Non-Player Characters
FF7 NT IRO July 2018
Media - Music and Sound
Menu - Avatars and Backdrops
Minigames
Spell Textures
The Reunion - Beacause and Menu Overhaul
World Models - Characters
World Models - Enemies
World Models - Vehicles
World Textures

Your mod is just insane even when im not already that far. Im playing it on the arrange mode and i do love the extra challange.
Anything i can do to fix that bug?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7156 on: 2018-08-01 23:59:34 »
Hello everybody

I'm having the hardest time on the regular fight in the battle square. I've tried a bunch of different strategies but so far I've only beaten it once. If I focus on damage, the status effects screw me. If I try to protect myself from status effects, then I can't keep up with damage. Does anyone have a strategy or tips to beat this thing? I can usually get to the 7th fight without issue but then I end up dying there 99% of the time.

Try using Cloud's Force Stealer weapon, it should alleviate some of the pressure of healing by absorbing back the damage you deal. Red's Limits should also be able to drain damage as HP and he has the added bonus of gaining Strength + Magic as turns go by. As far as statuses/elements go, the enemies coming out are always the same so an added effect or two to cover the nastier ones should improve your odds.

@Sega Chief. So I started working on an updated enemy item document for the most recent release. I thought I should ask for permission before I continue it. Based on NT v1.5 July 17 2018 Arrange Mode. I'm using the original document as a base and Proud Clod to fix the outdated info. I also decided to add a column for enemy skills. Check it out, let me know your thoughts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MmDYoYU9tnwSEQtX-5covRk4a8Sy87Im8cPGHZu2b58/edit?usp=sharing

I'm fine with that, it'll help other players.

Sega Chief ive got a problem at the Shinra HQ where you have to enter the elevator with Aeris. After pressing the button the fight beginns but the ATB bars doesnt fill. Nothing happens anymore. Its just two elevators how are going down. On one side is my team and on the other side the Boss. Im using the Steam version with 7th Heaven v1.54. Im also using the ff7_bc.exe.

My load order is:
Battle Models - Weapons
Field Models - Objects
Animations
Battle Models - Characters
Battle Models - Enemies
Battle Textures
Field Models - Main Characters
Field Models - Non-Player Characters
FF7 NT IRO July 2018
Media - Music and Sound
Menu - Avatars and Backdrops
Minigames
Spell Textures
The Reunion - Beacause and Menu Overhaul
World Models - Characters
World Models - Enemies
World Models - Vehicles
World Textures

Your mod is just insane even when im not already that far. Im playing it on the arrange mode and i do love the extra challange.
Anything i can do to fix that bug?

In situations like that, the best thing to do is disable mods one at a time, reattempt the fight, and ascertain the source of the problem that way. But it's more than likely something to do with Battle Models so I would disable the Battle Models - Enemies one first, then try disabling Battle Textures if that doesn't work.

Also, make sure you're using the most up to date IRO from this thread rather than the catalog IRO. It's available from Page 1.

HautSaus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7157 on: 2018-08-02 00:56:06 »
Aeris' Wizard Staff's description (Restores HP - +30 Mag) doesn't match it's effect which actually restores MP when used in battle.

Vaylen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7158 on: 2018-08-02 07:50:15 »
Snip
As far as I know, Osmose was a completely new materia(In Black Chocobo, it appears as "DO NOT USE"). So there might be some space.
Additionally, a lot of those abilities could be innates or tied to equipment.
Especially tying some of them to weapons would be interesting. For example, the listed debuff-effects could appear more often on Barret or Cait Sith, giving their attacks more utility(Those two are the tankiest characters out there, after all). Cid's current innate also feels very lackluster - I had it proc once so far and it is simply... boring. I am taking some inspiration here from another FF mod I enjoy(Brave new World), which had weapon quirks as a core part of it and the builds of characters. For example, spears had "auto-cover" on them and usually gave HP boni for lower strength, but with the option to double-wield them(Foregoing a shield for high offence). This made the setups very specific and unique.
One categorize weapons into similary unique categories(A current example would be Aerith's healing stuff and Vincent's weapons focusing on status effects). Bumping up the uniqueness of weapons even more drastically by giving them more complex differences is a space ripe for exploration.

Another possibility would be to add passive effects(unlocked via materia growth) onto a lot of the command materia(Like Morph, Steal) and refashioning the stats on them to fit the passive boni(Like the mentioned execute).
But~ We would need to know how much space there is actually left to add new materia first.

Another possibility would be, if UI and the like allow it, to add a new command similar to magic called "Skills", which would contain steal, morph, mug etc. etc. That way, you could slam steal and morph onto one materia and have both commands available at the same time. It would need to function similar to the "Magic" command we already have, but encompassing commands instead of spells.

Lastly, another possibility to differentiate characters more would be "personal" abilities.
Via levelling, story events, limit unlocking or whatever, a character could unlock more abilities, unique to himself. This is basically an extension of the "innate" system. Cid, for example, would learn stuff like "Execute", "Wild Swings" and "Focus". This system would add a whole new dimension of possibilities for unique characters. A strong, unique character base is a good thing. Currently, for example, my Barret and Cid are very similar: Physical Cover/Counter users with support magic and attack-enhancing abilities. Very similar base, difference being Cid is more damage focused and Barret is more defensive. If I decided to go for frontline Barret, though, Barret would probably just be a worse damage/defence hybrid than Cid.
A more complex innate system would "fix" that.

The main problem with a more complex innate system is, that it might inhibit build-variety... Shoe-Horning characters into certain roles. However, that is already the case for most characters anyway via their base stats(Don't try to build a mage-Barret, for example).

Neidhart

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7159 on: 2018-08-02 10:37:01 »
In situations like that, the best thing to do is disable mods one at a time, reattempt the fight, and ascertain the source of the problem that way. But it's more than likely something to do with Battle Models so I would disable the Battle Models - Enemies one first, then try disabling Battle Textures if that doesn't work.

Also, make sure you're using the most up to date IRO from this thread rather than the catalog IRO. It's available from Page 1.

I turned off the Animation mod. It works now. Guess there was a problem either with the 60 fps battle or the doubled animation speed. I downloaded the 7H IRO Version
[17th July 2018] from the first page. Since its the only one working for 7th. I also followed the installation steps at page 1. But the ff7_en.exe didnt work for me cause steam started and game was on vanilla. Since i use the menu overhaul i tried out the ff7_bc.exe from your IRO folder. And that works fine so far.

Vaylen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7160 on: 2018-08-02 11:07:55 »
Small question: I'd like to have a roadmap for all the optional endgame content(Materia Caves, Weapons, ancient forest etc. etc.).
At around which points/Which levels should I do them?

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7161 on: 2018-08-02 12:51:02 »
Quote
As far as I know, Osmose was a completely new materia(In Black Chocobo, it appears as "DO NOT USE"). So there might be some space.

I believe (could be wrong), that Osmose is a refashioned poisona, and that there is space for new materia, but not space for skills? So you take poisona off heal, and make it it's own materia and change into osmose (I think).

So to  add new skills, you'd have to find redundant or at the least, skills that dont get much use so I guess something like..exit?

I like your ideas on how to create character distinction, I think anything that can help with that is a worthwhile pursuit, but I have no idea the feasibility of any of it....
« Last Edit: 2018-08-02 13:05:48 by jugend »

Vaylen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7162 on: 2018-08-02 13:20:12 »
I believe (could be wrong), that Osmose is a refashioned poisona, and that there is space for new materia, but not space for skills? So you take poisona off heal, and make it it's own materia and change into osmose (I think).

So to  add new skills, you'd have to find redundant or at the least, skills that dont get much use so I guess something like..exit?

I like your ideas on how to create character distinction, I think anything that can help with that is a worthwhile pursuit, but I have no idea the feasibility of any of it....
As mentioned, Osmose is listed as "DO NOT USE" in Black Chocobo, making me think that there indeed is space for new materia, albeit not necessarily much. But we got to wait on a statement on this.


Lots of the ideas mentioned would require some time put into them. Assuming implementation is possible(and without hassle), that leaves balancing and creative work - something that is made a lot easier through, for example, this forum.

UpRisen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7163 on: 2018-08-02 13:47:25 »
there are slots for new magic, items, and materia. but not for new commands afaik. You can see the empty IDs in wallmarket.

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7164 on: 2018-08-02 16:35:46 »
So I finally decided to make the ultimate weapons, the reason I held back was because I really wanted to know every weapon option I was using inside out, and get the most out of them.

I've been testing the ultimate weapons for a while, and personally, I'd like to see them get alot of tweaks.

I've found that all character balance has been lost since getting them. I was hoping that upon aqquring them, they would be a slight bump up in damage at the cost of stats, so if I really wanted to pump out extra damage, I'd stick it on pure offence character, and keep the other characters with weapons that stats complimented their builds. But I havn't found this to be the case, all of the ultimates seem to render all other weapon choices obsolete.

The problems go beyond that though, for example, I was using Cid as my main frontline damage with partisan, and due to his huge luck, he was my best damage dealer.
Now with the ultimates, he's literally hitting 2 to 3 times less than other characters. Yeah, he's self healing, that's nice and cool and all? But it's a niche that's essentially forced onto him, that removes my original intent for him. Now hes hitting 2k and 4k crits, while yuffie/tifa etc are all up in the 7/8/9k. Essentially, as long I'm using these ultimates, Cid is now worthless in the role I designed him for in comparison with the other characters.

It's also thrown away any other build variations that I had. Barret as a frontliner? Pointless now. His missing score is basically 2 times the damage of his strongest short-range weapon, with no setup and long range.

Cid with Grow Lance in back row? Again, pointless now, before his damage was on par with Barret from the back row, but now Barrets doing double Cids damage with missing score.
Same deal with Vincent.
etc etc

Characters are now pigeonholed into a role, or they suffer immensely. The balance even among the ultimate weapons themselves is quite off in itself, some are absolutely god tier, while others in terms of overall reliable damage per turn, and weapon efficiency fall very, very far short. Which means, if I want to maintain efficiency or rather not massively nerf myself, I just have to drop certain characters as they now longer are comparable to the others. Why use a tank thats doing 2k max, when I could use one whos doing 5k+? thats 8k vs 20k per turn.

I feel that the balance before aqurring ultimate weapons was excellent. Everything was finely tuned and no one massively outshone other characters (without having a balancing downside, but now I feel that's all lost.

I don't know if that was the intent? To just make the ultimates crazy powerful and imbalanced even among themselves? Just as like the last bit of variation to the game? Or is it just an oversight? I'd really like to see the Ultimates fall in line with the other weapons in the game, but maybe that's just me.


Heres just a few examples, these are all done with 255 attack vs 70 def cloud for consisteny and ease of testing.

Ragnarok:

Ultimate weapon:

Max Ray:

Pilebanger:

Missing score:

You can see the damage jumps are ludicrous. I can't be bothered to upload more, but Tifa and Yuffie do even more damage, and people like Cid/vincent with no differnt formula are just doing 2k.

I'd also like to point out that Clouds damage being contingent on his HP, invetiably means that, he is significantly less reliable than other high tier attackers.
And because hes reliant on high HP, it means hes further nerfed by using Touph/Championship/circlet, as the healing penalty now effects him twice as bad as not only is his life at stake but his damage too.

Because of this, I should just use Barret/Yuffie/Tifa, as Barret in the back row as a tank, is a much more consisntely high damage dealer than cloud as a pure attacker. And Yuffie and Tifa are just wrecking machines.

The only Ultimate that I don't find that balance breaking is Vincents, could be because I don't use him so much. But so far, it seems like what I'd envision for the other ultimates, a decent jump up in damage, but nothing that renders all other weapon choices obsolete. I also like the damage of Venus Gospel, it's a good step up, and like to see similar results for others, but the self-healing in itself is just broken.

Maybe it's just me, but I really feel like the ultimate weapons should add diversity, not take it away. Perhaps, others just  prefer ultimate weapons to truly be "ultimate weapons" where no others can compare, I can accept that if that is the case.

Personally, what I would like to see to really distinguish the weapons from the others, without breaking them, say something like; Cloud +25/30 Str on Ultimate weapon, normal damage formula.
This way, if I want a pure offence weapon, i'll use this, and the strength of the weapon will give me more build variety with armour/accessories, but if I really want cloud to have more survivability, I'll still use Ragnarok. Could change Appocalypse into a + dex or luck weapon at the same time.

You could follow the same sort of theme for all characters.

Say for example, Barrets Longe range weapons never have Vit or Spr on them. But to really cement this as his "Ultimate long range weapon" this could have +20 vit/spr, with normal damage formula, and reduce it's attack. And change Pilebangers attack to that of missing scores, change it's bonus to + dex, then change Max Ray to have an extra 10+ magic. And finally, you could change the triple AP weapon into long range, +30 dex, but less attack then Pilebanger, so it would be the most offensive long range weapon.

So you'd have;

Highest attack and most damage = frontline pilebanger  (49 attack, +30 dex?)
Highest damage from back line weapon, with lower attack than pilebanger, but high dex for good damage = triple ap weapon (45 attack, +30 dex?)
best tanking weapon, but low damage = missing score ( 44 attack, +30 vit/spr)
highest magic and back row but not no vit/spr bonus, so can't compare for tanking to missing score (42 attack, +30 magic?)

Those are just rough numbers I pulled out of the air, obviously not exacts, just a rough guideline for an idea and the same principle could be applied to all characters.



Sorry for the essay again, I feel quite strongly about these examples, and how I think you can create diversity and horizontal options through the end game weapons, without elevating one massively over another, and thus taking away all freedom of choice.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-02 16:45:16 by jugend »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7165 on: 2018-08-02 22:27:12 »
Aeris' Wizard Staff's description (Restores HP - +30 Mag) doesn't match it's effect which actually restores MP when used in battle.

Ah, my bad. I'll sort it out.

As far as I know, Osmose was a completely new materia(In Black Chocobo, it appears as "DO NOT USE"). So there might be some space.
Additionally, a lot of those abilities could be innates or tied to equipment.
Especially tying some of them to weapons would be interesting. For example, the listed debuff-effects could appear more often on Barret or Cait Sith, giving their attacks more utility(Those two are the tankiest characters out there, after all). Cid's current innate also feels very lackluster - I had it proc once so far and it is simply... boring. I am taking some inspiration here from another FF mod I enjoy(Brave new World), which had weapon quirks as a core part of it and the builds of characters. For example, spears had "auto-cover" on them and usually gave HP boni for lower strength, but with the option to double-wield them(Foregoing a shield for high offence). This made the setups very specific and unique.
One categorize weapons into similary unique categories(A current example would be Aerith's healing stuff and Vincent's weapons focusing on status effects). Bumping up the uniqueness of weapons even more drastically by giving them more complex differences is a space ripe for exploration.

Another possibility would be to add passive effects(unlocked via materia growth) onto a lot of the command materia(Like Morph, Steal) and refashioning the stats on them to fit the passive boni(Like the mentioned execute).
But~ We would need to know how much space there is actually left to add new materia first.

Another possibility would be, if UI and the like allow it, to add a new command similar to magic called "Skills", which would contain steal, morph, mug etc. etc. That way, you could slam steal and morph onto one materia and have both commands available at the same time. It would need to function similar to the "Magic" command we already have, but encompassing commands instead of spells.

Lastly, another possibility to differentiate characters more would be "personal" abilities.
Via levelling, story events, limit unlocking or whatever, a character could unlock more abilities, unique to himself. This is basically an extension of the "innate" system. Cid, for example, would learn stuff like "Execute", "Wild Swings" and "Focus". This system would add a whole new dimension of possibilities for unique characters. A strong, unique character base is a good thing. Currently, for example, my Barret and Cid are very similar: Physical Cover/Counter users with support magic and attack-enhancing abilities. Very similar base, difference being Cid is more damage focused and Barret is more defensive. If I decided to go for frontline Barret, though, Barret would probably just be a worse damage/defence hybrid than Cid.
A more complex innate system would "fix" that.

The main problem with a more complex innate system is, that it might inhibit build-variety... Shoe-Horning characters into certain roles. However, that is already the case for most characters anyway via their base stats(Don't try to build a mage-Barret, for example).

The weapon effects themselves are fairly limited compared to FF6 and mostly revolve around damage-dealing rather than support effects, and different types can't be equipped between characters either (although it can be set so that characters can equip anybody's weapon, if you don't mind the visual discrepancy of, say, Cloud looking like he's holding Buster Sword when he's got Cid's Spear equipped).

One idea might be to try and get the weapon ID and jump the .exe to the section that handles Cover if it finds a match (or elsewhere for different effects). Challenge of that though is tracking it all down and setting things up.

Materia generally can only have one effect on it so some work would be needed to add an additional effect like a growing stat boost. It's an interesting idea though.

Innates are currently handled through Character AI, for which there is a limited amount of space (about 2000-2100 or so bytes). As of the current build, the space being used is sitting at about 2016 bytes total so very close to being full. There's just about enough there to give each character one innate, but multiple effects would likely be too much. Be nice if you could maybe choose between 2 (bit like how Barret's works differently depending on which Row he's in) but space is pretty tight.

I turned off the Animation mod. It works now. Guess there was a problem either with the 60 fps battle or the doubled animation speed. I downloaded the 7H IRO Version
[17th July 2018] from the first page. Since its the only one working for 7th. I also followed the installation steps at page 1. But the ff7_en.exe didnt work for me cause steam started and game was on vanilla. Since i use the menu overhaul i tried out the ff7_bc.exe from your IRO folder. And that works fine so far.

7H uses the ff7.exe I think, rather than the steam version. FF7_EN.exe is for steam only, but I included it with the IRO pack just in case there were instances where people could use 7H with the steam launcher/exe or something. ff7_bc.exe is fine too, that's just a ff7.exe modified with menu overhaul.

Small question: I'd like to have a roadmap for all the optional endgame content(Materia Caves, Weapons, ancient forest etc. etc.).
At around which points/Which levels should I do them?

Very rough roadmap, your mileage may vary:
North Crater (power up; bring a sneak glove to get weapons and use left-up path for Materia), Materia Cave Blue/Purple or Ultimate Weapon, some Lv.4 Limits, Normal/Special Battle, Extra Battle: Silver Match, Materia Cave Yellow/Red or remaining Lv.4 Limits, Ruby/Emerald Weapon, Kalm Traveller, Extra Battle: Gold/Platinum Match, and then O??a if you can find it.

I believe (could be wrong), that Osmose is a refashioned poisona, and that there is space for new materia, but not space for skills? So you take poisona off heal, and make it it's own materia and change into osmose (I think).

So to  add new skills, you'd have to find redundant or at the least, skills that dont get much use so I guess something like..exit?

I like your ideas on how to create character distinction, I think anything that can help with that is a worthwhile pursuit, but I have no idea the feasibility of any of it....

There's space for more Materia, just not used them yet. I didn't know until recently that those empty spots could actually be used as Materia, I thought they just broke the game.

snippity snip

Until about last November or so(?) I had no real capability of modifying the .exe properly. That was about the time, or a little before, that DLPB took me under his wing and started showing me the ropes. Thanks to his help, I got a bit more comfortable with the whole thing and while I'm still pretty green on modifying assembly, I can at least get some things done now that I couldn't before.

And one of those things is adjusting the damage formulas used by Ultimate Weapons. The issue I was faced with when NT was being put together is that I know how strong those modifiers can be, and that some are flat-out better than others when it comes to damage. I had two options; either drop the unique formulas they use for standard ones, or just bite the bullet and keep them as-is.

Now I've got a third option of adjusting their formulas directly (same with the other special weapons like Yoshi, Powersoul, Masterfist, etc). But I want to wait until I do a full respec before messing around with damage formulas and the like.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7166 on: 2018-08-03 10:16:47 »
Thanks for the clarifications.
I wonder how hard-coded the limitations are. Not my field of expertise, sadly. Is there no way to increase space for innate abilities?
If not, maybe some workaround could do. Materia seems to be able to support more complex effects... So would it be possible to equip a character with a second, "hidden" armor? This hidden piece of equipment would be auto-equipped and automatically contain materia. I can already see how this could create a range of problems, but it's a start, maybe?
Another possibility would be, if one could limit Materia to certain characters. So instead of having a new "innate", you would need to equip the materia for the effect to take place. Tinkering with the amount of materia slots for balance. The Materia would then evolve via story-events. So everyone would have a "personal" materia that bestows them its effects.


In terms of weaponry, abolishing the idea of truly "ultimate" weapons in favor of a broad range of weapons, each fitting(or enabling) a different playstyle is an idea.
That said, I am fine with not every character being wildly diverse, as long they got a good weapon for each of their "main" styles(Like Cid - Crit and/or Tank).
Some characters would naturally get a wider variiety of "ultimate" weapons(Like Vincent, being a Str/Mag/Tank hybrid), but that's not a bad thing. Caster Barret feels strange anyway.



Oh, and thank for the roadmap. I always feel lost when it comes to optional content and either end up doing it too early or too late ~.~

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7167 on: 2018-08-03 14:30:02 »
Quote
Until about last November or so(?) I had no real capability of modifying the .exe properly. That was about the time, or a little before, that DLPB took me under his wing and started showing me the ropes. Thanks to his help, I got a bit more comfortable with the whole thing and while I'm still pretty green on modifying assembly, I can at least get some things done now that I couldn't before.

And one of those things is adjusting the damage formulas used by Ultimate Weapons. The issue I was faced with when NT was being put together is that I know how strong those modifiers can be, and that some are flat-out better than others when it comes to damage. I had two options; either drop the unique formulas they use for standard ones, or just bite the bullet and keep them as-is.

Now I've got a third option of adjusting their formulas directly (same with the other special weapons like Yoshi, Powersoul, Masterfist, etc). But I want to wait until I do a full respec before messing around with damage formulas and the like.

Oh, I see, for some reason I just thought it was conformer that was the problem, I misinterpreted your response on discord. Looking forward to what you have in the works.
I'm gonna go ahead then, and just consider the ultimate weapons, anomalies that really aren't part of NT balance then, just an addition if you want them. So any feedback I give will not include them anymore, and thus be focused on pre-ultimates balance.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-03 14:32:37 by jugend »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7168 on: 2018-08-03 15:59:50 »
Thanks for the clarifications.
I wonder how hard-coded the limitations are. Not my field of expertise, sadly. Is there no way to increase space for innate abilities?
If not, maybe some workaround could do. Materia seems to be able to support more complex effects... So would it be possible to equip a character with a second, "hidden" armor? This hidden piece of equipment would be auto-equipped and automatically contain materia. I can already see how this could create a range of problems, but it's a start, maybe?
Another possibility would be, if one could limit Materia to certain characters. So instead of having a new "innate", you would need to equip the materia for the effect to take place. Tinkering with the amount of materia slots for balance. The Materia would then evolve via story-events. So everyone would have a "personal" materia that bestows them its effects.

In terms of weaponry, abolishing the idea of truly "ultimate" weapons in favor of a broad range of weapons, each fitting(or enabling) a different playstyle is an idea.
That said, I am fine with not every character being wildly diverse, as long they got a good weapon for each of their "main" styles(Like Cid - Crit and/or Tank).
Some characters would naturally get a wider variiety of "ultimate" weapons(Like Vincent, being a Str/Mag/Tank hybrid), but that's not a bad thing. Caster Barret feels strange anyway.

Oh, and thank for the roadmap. I always feel lost when it comes to optional content and either end up doing it too early or too late ~.~

A long time ago, each character had an 'endgame' armour along with their ultimate weapon that only they could equip. It was a bit restricting though, so in the end I got rid of it and made the armour available to all characters. What you describe with a hidden armour likely isn't feasible unfortunately.

It is possible to semi-'lock' a Materia onto a character by placing it into a 'non-slot' of a weapon or armour; it can be removed using certain options like remove-all/exchange however. It'd all be a bit cumbersome to set up.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7169 on: 2018-08-03 23:03:34 »
A long time ago, each character had an 'endgame' armour along with their ultimate weapon that only they could equip. It was a bit restricting though, so in the end I got rid of it and made the armour available to all characters. What you describe with a hidden armour likely isn't feasible unfortunately.

It is possible to semi-'lock' a Materia onto a character by placing it into a 'non-slot' of a weapon or armour; it can be removed using certain options like remove-all/exchange however. It'd all be a bit cumbersome to set up.
Cumbersome~minity is a price you gotta pay for EVOLUTION!!!

Jokes aside, "specialized" armor, assorted into tiers, could be a good possibly. I see how it gets too restrictive - on the other hand, if you give multiple options per character(With a few of them overlapping), this could create choice and variety.

Disabling the "remove all" option would be a start. It is, I guess, a rather underused option anyway. If the bit of tedium added via removal of "remove all" is added as a cost, the prize would be a much more diverse cast. There is value in that, from my perspective.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7170 on: 2018-08-04 13:30:51 »
This has been on my mind for some time now, and the more I delve into the end game content, the more abundantly clear it becomes. Long range weapons are quite simply, broken/overpowered/balance breaking.

I'm someone whos obsessed with character balance and their overall worth in comparison with others, comes from my history with competitive fighting games, so I really don't like to see characters have something over another that is too advantageous, with no drawbacks.

Long-range weapons are fundamentally broken. -50% damage reduction and full damage. On it's face, how can anyone who frontlines compare with that? They just can't, theres nothing that makes up for it at all. You basically just get free damage reduction and normal damage, while frontliners take 50% more damage and do the same damage. Barret is god tier, yuffie is god tier, cid with long-range weapons is god tier. The more I used Cid with Grow Lance, the more I realized how overpowered it was. Before he was above cloud as a frontliner in what he brought to the party in terms of overall worth. Now that I've put him in the backrow, he gets +50% more damage reduction, for minus 7? attack, which I very easily make up, it's absolutely no problem whatsoever, now there is absolutely no comparison between him and cloud, he is so much better than him in terms of overall party worth.

The only real advantage you get from frontlining is the possibility of more LB's, but that isn't enough to make up for the advantages you get from sitting comfortably in the back with a long range weapon. I'd like to see something change about this, though, I really don't know if it's feasible. Backrow should have some sort of built-in offensive damage reduction, as balance wise, it's completely unfair for one character to take 50% less damage, and still dish out equal damage.

I don't really know how to handle it. As I said, maybe some sort of built-in damage reduction for backrow, maybe even slower limit charge speed? Or frontliners could have increased critical hit? Or even faster limit building? There needs to be something, as the worth of +50%  damage reduc elevates anyone who backlines with a longrange weapon so far over any frontliner, it's completely unfair.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-04 13:33:13 by jugend »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7171 on: 2018-08-04 15:57:10 »
This has been on my mind for some time now, and the more I delve into the end game content, the more abundantly clear it becomes. Long range weapons are quite simply, broken/overpowered/balance breaking.

I'm someone whos obsessed with character balance and their overall worth in comparison with others, comes from my history with competitive fighting games, so I really don't like to see characters have something over another that is too advantageous, with no drawbacks.

Long-range weapons are fundamentally broken. -50% damage reduction and full damage. On it's face, how can anyone who frontlines compare with that? They just can't, theres nothing that makes up for it at all. You basically just get free damage reduction and normal damage, while frontliners take 50% more damage and do the same damage. Barret is god tier, yuffie is god tier, cid with long-range weapons is god tier. The more I used Cid with Grow Lance, the more I realized how overpowered it was. Before he was above cloud as a frontliner in what he brought to the party in terms of overall worth. Now that I've put him in the backrow, he gets +50% more damage reduction, for minus 7? attack, which I very easily make up, it's absolutely no problem whatsoever, now there is absolutely no comparison between him and cloud, he is so much better than him in terms of overall party worth.

The only real advantage you get from frontlining is the possibility of more LB's, but that isn't enough to make up for the advantages you get from sitting comfortably in the back with a long range weapon. I'd like to see something change about this, though, I really don't know if it's feasible. Backrow should have some sort of built-in offensive damage reduction, as balance wise, it's completely unfair for one character to take 50% less damage, and still dish out equal damage.

I don't really know how to handle it. As I said, maybe some sort of built-in damage reduction for backrow, maybe even slower limit charge speed? Or frontliners could have increased critical hit? Or even faster limit building? There needs to be something, as the worth of +50%  damage reduc elevates anyone who backlines with a longrange weapon so far over any frontliner, it's completely unfair.

One thing I can do is reduce the damage reduction and damage-dealt penalty to close the gap.

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7172 on: 2018-08-04 18:27:38 »
Quote
One thing I can do is reduce the damage reduction and damage-dealt penalty to close the gap.

That's good, I was looking for something like that for wallmarket, but couldn't find anything. Another workaround I was thinking if that wasn't feasible, was to up the crit rate of short-range weapons.

jugend

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7173 on: 2018-08-05 14:42:12 »
Another point I'd like to bring up, would be one of my problems with new threat (which is rare) which is that weapon choice at end game, and later game (probably the game in general?) for damage, is almost completely irrelevant, if you aren't talking about things with broken formulas (ultimate weapons/powersoul)

So for example, I'm at 255 attack with Ragnarok, if I switch down to buster sword it's only 23 less attack, the differnce is extremely minimal. The power through weapons alone is almost inconsequential because of the huge stats that you get through ranks. So since I reach max attack so easily and the differnce between starter weapons and end game weapons, is only about 26 points, their effect on your power feels very inconsquential.

And because of this, anything that has a bonus at the expense of weapon attack, is supposed to be an implied handicap, except it never is, because that few points in less weapon damage is almost irrelevant. For example, force stealer heals hp, but its 20 attack down, but that doesn't matter because I can still hit 255, and the worth of that full heal is worth more than the 20 or so attack. Same with vincents high crit weapon, 24% crit? for some 10 attack down than other weapons, but the crit is worth to much, and the 10 attack easily regained. Same deal with Cid and grown lance, something like -8 attack from partisan, but that's absolutely inconsequential and the long range bonus is priceless.

I think, this does ultimately make weapon choice... somewhat irrelevant for anything outside of slots. I would like to see more differnce between say, ragnarok and buster sword powerwise. I'm not sure how this could change, maybe, bring down the amount of stats gained through rank? And up the amount of attack weapons give?

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7174 on: 2018-08-05 19:28:24 »
Just to add to that

ragnarok;

buster sword;


Of course, it will be more pronounced with crits and on lower def targets, but I'm finding at end game, the damage difference pretty consistently negligible. I know the system is fine tuned so i'd say it's very hard to tweak in any way, I'd just like to see the weapons makeup alot more of the overall brunt of your total attack, because atm, you can basically equip any weapon as long as you want, use a power wrist, and it's the same attack, I don't think weapons should have that little weight.

In the original for example, it's 18 attack for buster sword, and 100 attack for ultima weapon, the differnce is massive. Though I don't think it's a huge deal, I do think something like an overall tone down on the amount of stats you get from rank up could benefit the game, and allow you to give more weight to weapon choice.

 the brunt of your attack comes from

44-50 for end game weapons

30-40 for starter str

120 max for rank up str (cloud)

35 for acc

20/40 for armor

the amount of weight in the  stats from ranking up is extremly high imo, and taking away alot of meaning in weapon choice, I think this could be an area to take a look at
« Last Edit: 2018-08-05 19:36:52 by jugend »