Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)  (Read 867061 times)

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3075 on: 2016-03-31 22:13:55 »
I was wondering what sort of damage formula is used for the "Attack" command, as it seems very underwhelming. Everyone on my team, including Cid (whose magic is like slightly over 1/3 of what his STR is) does more damage with level 2 spells than Attack. On the other hand the Deathblow also misses too much to be reliable physical damage. Is magic meant to be the 100% time go to, or is my gear just weak (strongest weapon I currently have is apocalypse) and I'm struggling with the Pearl Weapon and the four materia caves, I got close to killing King Bomb once but I ran out of ethers and perished a long death.

On another note, it's not possible to select the "do nothing" option when talking to the Corel NPC that teleports you into saucer areas with the gold ticket, so you always have to trek back if you by mistake talk to the NPC or decide not to go to the saucer.
« Last Edit: 2016-03-31 22:18:05 by FifulX »

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3076 on: 2016-03-31 22:25:30 »
I was wondering what sort of damage formula is used for the "Attack" command, as it seems very underwhelming. Everyone on my team, including Cid (whose magic is like slightly over 1/3 of what his STR is) does more damage with level 2 spells than Attack. On the other hand the Deathblow also misses too much to be reliable physical damage. Is magic meant to be the 100% time go to, or is my gear just weak (strongest weapon I currently have is apocalypse) and I'm struggling with the ...

If you compare Attack to a spell, you have to compare it on an enemy who isn't weak to your spell used. Else if you use the weakness, use elemental + magic materia to compare. STR chars are handy for many situations, not only to Auto attack. Taking the Cid example, you can build him STR/LCK which will catch up the magic damage by critting. There are a lot of good materias for STR oriented characters and keep in mind they will have way more HP since they don't have any magic materia equipped.
I don't know your setup so I can't help you much more but I might suggest you getting Cover, two or three Counterattack materias on Cid, link a deathblow with command counter and such on. I'm unsure if it's possible on NT but Steal (level 2) materia + Added cut should allow you to hit twice a turn (I'm also unsure if x4 materia is available, if it is, x4 will be better ofc)
« Last Edit: 2016-03-31 22:42:57 by aquecoucou »

Skirmish

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3077 on: 2016-03-31 22:33:33 »
Actually, it's +5 for every stat, +10 for 2 stats and +5 for a third stat which results in 2 stats at +15, one at +10 and others at +5. Btw, when thinking about it, it's sums up at 8*9*55 = 3960 sources. Thanksfully it's in the long run because pressing 4k times the same button to increase stats would have driven us insane ^^

Now that I know there might be an event for running the game at rank 0, I already know what my next run will be seeing how great the fort condor battles reward is if you don't miss any out.
I will say I've been very impressed with the Fort Condor rewards. Everything so far has been useful and if I haven't missed anything then I've just done Fort Condor Battle 11 for Remedy x10, just after waking the Sleeping Forest with the Lunar Harp in Bone Village.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3078 on: 2016-03-31 22:41:06 »
Actually, it's +5 for every stat, +10 for 2 stats and +5 for a third stat which results in 2 stats at +15, one at +10 and others at +5. Btw, when thinking about it, it's sums up at 8*9*55 = 3960 sources. Thanksfully it's in the long run because pressing 4k times the same button to increase stats would have driven us insane ^^

Oh, is it? Whoops. I can't even remember my own nonsense ^^'

I was wondering what sort of damage formula is used for the "Attack" command, as it seems very underwhelming. Everyone on my team, including Cid (whose magic is like slightly over 1/3 of what his STR is) does more damage with level 2 spells than Attack. On the other hand the Deathblow also misses too much to be reliable physical damage. Is magic meant to be the 100% time go to, or is my gear just weak (strongest weapon I currently have is apocalypse) and I'm struggling with the
Spoiler: show
 Pearl Weapon


On another note, it's not possible to select the "do nothing" option when talking to the Corel NPC that teleports you into saucer areas with the gold ticket, so you always have to trek back if you by mistake talk to the NPC or decide not to go to the saucer.

I'll fix that NPC. As for Attack, you need to make some preparations to beef up your physical damage output. Consider using some of the following:
-) Elemental Matera + [Element] in the weapon, 2x damage
-) Added Cut + Command/Spell for additional damage (Deathblow and Mug are the common ones, for a makeshift 2x-Cut).
-) STR boosting equipment: Power Wrist, Gigas Armlet, Edincoat, anything that raises it.
-) Front Row for short-range attackers (Back Row imposes a 50% damage penalty to physical attacks).
-) Counter Attack and Command Counter can be used to generate more free physical attacks.

Another thing to consider is the defence of the enemy; some will have noticeably higher physical defence or magical defence. Pearl Weapon has 200 Defence vs 170 Magic Defence, but both these stats drop to 55 when his chest-plate opens for his big attack. Put a non-elemental Materia like Barrier or Cover or something into Cloud's weapon and then combine it with Elemental for 2x damage (doesn't work for his Limits, which use separate formulas/elements).

The general balance of Physical vs. Magical is that physicals are fast-animation and cost no MP while spells take some time + MP to use. Physicals though can generate more hits overall and have the ability to land 2x damage from criticals, with stacking counter attacks, command counter, Added Cut, 2x-Cut/4x-Cut, and Limits. It's easier to build the STR stat as well thanks to the Weapon value adding onto the character's strength.

Where Magic comes in is with the versatility that's available at a given time and it's higher damage overall. By contrast, the support Materia for Magic isn't quite as potent. Quadra only doubles the damage output because it halves the base damage dealt with the drawback of only being effective for as many charges it has (5x max), while MP Turbo and Magic Counter can both drain MP at a quick rate. I think the potential damage is higher for Magic though, which is the way it should be. There needs to be a pay-off for using that MP and setting up all the Materia for the spells.

I've been told by some that physical attacks are too strong but then other players will tell me that Magic seems to be the end-all. In the vanilla game, there is a definite point when physical attacks will outstrip magical ones and it's based on Level and the availability of Materia that will multiply it's damage output. In NT, Level gets synched at 44 and those Materia are shuffled around a bit with all the equipment changes so I'd say it's in constant flux; there'll be times when physicals have an edge but others when magic has it. It depends when you unlock stronger spells, find weapons & Materia, and what characters you happen to be using for certain stretches of the game.

I will say I've been very impressed with the Fort Condor rewards. Everything so far has been useful and if I haven't missed anything then I've just done Fort Condor Battle 11 for Remedy x10, just after waking the Sleeping Forest with the Lunar Harp in Bone Village.

Well, I'm glad; someone said they were useless consumables and only useful for selling ;-;

Skirmish

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3079 on: 2016-03-31 22:48:59 »
Well, I'm glad; someone said they were useless consumables and only useful for selling ;-;
The funny thing is when it comes to item use, I am extremely cheap which is why I absolutely love Osmose as a spell, that with Magic Counter can allow me some bonus MP back when attacked. However since I am doing a no drugs (Sources) run, at some point I am going to need those items badly due to my party being significantly weaker than normal.

Speaking of MP costs, I encountered a Hungry in the Corel Valley just before the Forgotten City. It had 100/100 MP but it kept saying it's MP was depleted, what exactly is it trying to cast because whatever it is, it costs more than it's Max MP.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3080 on: 2016-03-31 23:28:23 »
The funny thing is when it comes to item use, I am extremely cheap which is why I absolutely love Osmose as a spell, that with Magic Counter can allow me some bonus MP back when attacked. However since I am doing a no drugs (Sources) run, at some point I am going to need those items badly due to my party being significantly weaker than normal.

Speaking of MP costs, I encountered a Hungry in the Corel Valley just before the Forgotten City. It had 100/100 MP but it kept saying it's MP was depleted, what exactly is it trying to cast because whatever it is, it costs more than it's Max MP.

That little bastard isn't still trying to cast Pearl, is he? I could have swore I changed it to Lagomorph. Oh well.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3081 on: 2016-03-31 23:52:35 »
physical is useless up until you complete tifa's holy trinity.

then by that time she's ferning wrecking strawberries so hard you forget she was worthless for the bulk of the first disc

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3082 on: 2016-04-01 01:15:32 »
Nah, Throw is love. Throw is life.

Also, Tifa is not useless in early disc 1. Her first "upgrade," courtesy of Hell House, gives her +30 dex at the cost of some str. She attacks/chucks things like Bolt Plumes, Fire Fangs, and Vampire Fangs (obtainable in Midgar easy) so quickly, it out-classes anything you can do with other characters/materia for a good while. Once you get to +50 dex + Haste, it's over.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 01:36:01 by Bowser9 »

JLOUTLAW

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3083 on: 2016-04-01 02:04:35 »
How do I download the new New Threat v4.0 from 7th heaven?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3084 on: 2016-04-01 02:28:27 »
How do I download the new New Threat v4.0 from 7th heaven?

It's not in the catalog yet; there's a makeshift IRO supplied with the Main Installer though.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3085 on: 2016-04-01 02:35:11 »
Nah, Throw is love. Throw is life.

Also, Tifa is not useless in early disc 1. Her first "upgrade," courtesy of Hell House, gives her +30 dex at the cost of some str. She attacks/chucks things like Bolt Plumes, Fire Fangs, and Vampire Fangs (obtainable in Midgar easy) so quickly, it out-classes anything you can do with other characters/materia for a good while. Once you get to +50 dex + Haste, it's over.

why, sure, i'll spend 2 hours farming useless strawberries when i can move on with the game.

throw also costs money. money i was always strapped for until disc 2 when i realized all those crystal swords i stole sold for a hell of a lot of money. glad i took the time to swipe em.

30 dex just means she hits for junk damage more often. doesnt mean much when spells are doing triple her per turn damage for a paltry amount of easily restored mp.

if you say her damage is good, did you overlevel?
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 02:37:02 by selius »

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3086 on: 2016-04-01 03:23:19 »
Nah, it's never 2 hours for the morphs, and you only ever need to morph maybe 5 of any type of creature that morphs into those items while you run to the next boss, which is insanely easy with Tifa and high dex. If you're spending that long to morph things... then yeah, don't use Morph or the item strategy unless you're comfortable with it. Max speed settings, counting hits, etc; it's not for everyone.

Why are you strapped for Gil? Sell all your Phoenix Downs and Ethers and just chuck the cheap rods. Or don't. It's clear you don't like Throw, but I haven't had any issues with it, so I'm calling it out as a valid strategy. I also just have a long history of geeking out over it. Sega Chief knows.  ;)

I wasn't talking about pure physical attack damage. You misread my post. However, if I had to use just physical attacks, there are plenty of setups for str/dex that will give a turn advantage, starting from Shinra HQ, which isn't that much slower in real time compared to magic so I'll do it just to change things up.

How dare you; I never over level in NT. Ever. I love rare steals to the point where I always run away from fights if I haven't already killed the enemies therein at least once (so I can fill out my morph/steal list).
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 11:11:39 by Bowser9 »

JLOUTLAW

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3087 on: 2016-04-01 03:32:17 »
It's not in the catalog yet; there's a makeshift IRO supplied with the Main Installer though.

I have to be honest..... I don't understand what you mean. Is the file in the 7th heaven or is it in the new threat main download?

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3088 on: 2016-04-01 03:34:35 »
@JLOUTLAW
Ah, Sega Chief must be referencing the old mediafire upload that included a bunch of things. The current link just as the installer, so you'll have to wait.

EDIT: Whoops, it's part of the zip archive.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 03:42:59 by Bowser9 »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3089 on: 2016-04-01 03:37:08 »
why, sure, i'll spend 2 hours farming useless strawberries when i can move on with the game.

throw also costs money. money i was always strapped for until disc 2 when i realized all those crystal swords i stole sold for a hell of a lot of money. glad i took the time to swipe em.

30 dex just means she hits for junk damage more often. doesnt mean much when spells are doing triple her per turn damage for a paltry amount of easily restored mp.

if you say her damage is good, did you overlevel?

https://youtu.be/23x9DN6AL94

Jenova's defensive values:
Physical Def: 104
Magical Def: 118
Difference of 14 (negligible, enemy defence stats aren't doubled like they are for the party in NT)

Total Damage Output for Tifa and Aeris, set up to maximise their roles as STR and MAG damage-dealers, using Elemental for Tifa and Quake for Aeris to get 2x damage and both at the intended area soft-cap of Lv.21. I've included values that take out the Node damage from it (the small enemies that spawn later):
Code: [Select]
Aeris
1161 (Shiva Summon)
424
420
414
436
422
436
412
463 + 175 + 0 (Antipode, all enemies)
124 (Fire, on Node enemy)
430
422
436
430
434
436

14 Attacks overall (16 if counting Nodes)
= 6713 w/o Node damage
= 7475 w/ Node damage

Tifa
324
336
324
320
332
415 + 437 (Limit)
334
334
324
593 + 656 (Limit, struck Node enemy)
407 + 454 (Limit)
318
322
326
318
336
672 (crit)

16 Attacks overall (17 if counting Nodes)

= 6533 w/o Node damage
= 7782 w/ Node damage

For traversing areas with random enemies, the best thing to do is fit your physical attacker up either with a common element (Fire/Ice/Bolt) to clear out weaker enemies faster or give them something a bit more niche to deal with tougher enemies (Holy, Earth, etc). Early on, I tend to use a physical attacker for mop-up if a spell doesn't kill a weak random rather than waste a second cast on it.

But there's nothing wrong with the physical damage so long as you set up for it. Each individual hit will usually be weaker, but the Limits help cover for that (so long as you're not sitting in the back row with sadness, that is).

I have to be honest..... I don't understand what you mean. Is the file in the 7th heaven or is it in the new threat main download?

If you download the Main Installer, there will be a couple of folders inside. The one called 7H contains the IRO I made for people to use while we get the bugs squashed for Alyza's catalog update to NT.

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3090 on: 2016-04-01 03:43:30 »
That's awesome, Sega Chief. It's nice to see the numbers compared side to side like that.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 03:56:13 by Bowser9 »

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3091 on: 2016-04-01 07:36:48 »
Nah, Throw is love. Throw is life.
Was wondering, what is the best way you found to stack gils when needed ? So far, using a Gil plus materia, I'm farming raptors in front of bone village, they die quickly enough and drop 27k gil per fight but it's an uncommon encounter.

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3092 on: 2016-04-01 08:55:40 »
@aquecoucou
Huh, if you're just looking for more consistent cash flow at your current point in Disc 1, you can just farm at Wutai's Hokage Rock. TBH, with Gil Plus you could farm anywhere the story takes you. You could even grind a bunch of spare materia and make a killing just off of the returns, but... I mean, if you really needed/wanted to?
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 09:09:15 by Bowser9 »

GeoFlare

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3093 on: 2016-04-01 10:34:44 »
I have to say, I have no problems with Tifa and her damage output. She consistently deals damage on par with that of the spell casters and even more with the DeathBlow materia. Also her limits tend to just pump out damage incredibly fast since I really don't use a tank. Tifa is generally always in my party along with Aerith. The two of them plus Cloud have got me to the Temple of the Ancients without a problem (besides my little love/hate relationship with Powersoul Keeper).

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3094 on: 2016-04-01 12:35:16 »
Thanks for the answers guys. I was also wondering, what do I link elemental with if a monster is not weak to any element? Do I link a non-elemental materia or will my damage still go up with a random element they're not strong to?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3095 on: 2016-04-01 13:23:46 »
There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

Your damage stays the same if you have an element set to your weapon but the enemy has no weaknesses/resistances to it. The trick for physical attackers is to pick an element that will help for the random fights that take the longest/cause the most trouble. Fire/Ice is generally good for a lot of the common enemies that appear in larger numbers; when in doubt, use Fire/Ice because there will always be an enemy on the route that has this weakness (unless it's a Shinra facility, in which case Bolt can be handy).

Edit: Almost forgot, as part of a small difficulty upgrade I'm making a change to the button press in Reactor No. 5: https://youtu.be/dOoIyU1J-cY
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 13:34:55 by Sega Chief »

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3096 on: 2016-04-01 15:14:13 »
So when a monster is not weak to anything, it's better to use a different materia or just put elemental in armor with whatever they throw at you, right? Also, I was wondering what causes the bombs in the Bomb King fight to explode, sometimes they take 2 attacks (including the one by King Bomb), sometimes they don't explode at all, and it's been largely confusing.

Yuffie1983

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3097 on: 2016-04-01 15:45:04 »
There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

Your damage stays the same if you have an element set to your weapon but the enemy has no weaknesses/resistances to it. The trick for physical attackers is to pick an element that will help for the random fights that take the longest/cause the most trouble. Fire/Ice is generally good for a lot of the common enemies that appear in larger numbers; when in doubt, use Fire/Ice because there will always be an enemy on the route that has this weakness (unless it's a Shinra facility, in which case Bolt can be handy).

Mr Chief will the IRO packaged with the installer work with other mod, like graphical ones.

Edit: Almost forgot, as part of a small difficulty upgrade I'm making a change to the button press in Reactor No. 5: https://youtu.be/dOoIyU1J-cY

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3098 on: 2016-04-01 15:46:44 »
So when a monster is not weak to anything, it's better to use a different materia or just put elemental in armor with whatever they throw at you, right? Also, I was wondering what causes the bombs in the Bomb King fight to explode, sometimes they take 2 attacks (including the one by King Bomb), sometimes they don't explode at all, and it's been largely confusing.

It's very rare that an enemy will have no elemental weakness, but there are a couple that don't. You can't guarantee what random encounter you'll fight next (sort of), but there's no harm in keeping it on. Unless it's a boss with no elemental weakness, in which case it'd be better to use it for defence/not at all.

Bomb King has an attack called Ignite Fuse, which inflicts the Dual-Drain status. You need to dispel this off, or use Regen on the affected Bomb to cancel it out.

Mr Chief will the IRO packaged with the installer work with other mod, like graphical ones.

It should do.

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3099 on: 2016-04-01 15:58:41 »
There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

For those that don't know, Hidden can also be utilized in the main game of FFVII. Equipping Elemental with a non-elemental Materia (excluding all support Materia and Restore) onto your armour will grant resistance to the Hidden Element, in which only one attack uses - Ultimate Weapon's Ultimate Beam. There are several more enemy attacks that use Hidden, however none of them cause actual damage, so you cannot defend against it (Status changing attacks).

Trivially, in the Jap original game there were a total of 15 attacks that caused damage which used the Hidden, or "10th" Element which you could defend against, however all but one (Ultimate Beam) had the hidden element changed to one of the 5 physical elements (Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch).