Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)  (Read 1557021 times)

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3100 on: 2016-04-01 17:19:00 »
I read somewhere that Carry Armour's Lapis Laser was hidden element in the J-ORG version; that would have made a big difference to challenge runs if it had survived the trip overseas. I think the Marine's (or was it Attack Squad) Smoke-Shot also survived and still carries Hidden; you can avoid the status this attack inflicts with Hidden protection. I think. Maybe.

Edit: Big thanks to DH for the donation; my memory remains foggier than a chocobo sage, however.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 17:20:31 by Sega Chief »

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3101 on: 2016-04-01 17:23:38 »
Holy strawberries, you guys were right. I have never used added cut before, but I have got Added Cut = Steal (level 2) linked and with 2x counter and command counter deathblow Cid just got 5 crits in a row for a total of 20~k damage. I guess elemental also plays a big part of that damage output, but hell he hits hard and is constantly under shield so he won't die.

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3102 on: 2016-04-01 18:13:22 »
I read somewhere that Carry Armour's Lapis Laser was hidden element in the J-ORG version; that would have made a big difference to challenge runs if it had survived the trip overseas. I think the Marine's (or was it Attack Squad) Smoke-Shot also survived and still carries Hidden; you can avoid the status this attack inflicts with Hidden protection. I think. Maybe.
I may test for this when I get home, but I highly suspect that you are wrong.

Did you know that there are various enemies such as the Sahagin that are weak to the physical elements, such as Punch? Although the effect would be "can't miss", not x2 damage.
Also, the Corvette takes double damage from Confusion, and Palmer takes double damage from Sleep. Not sure what's going on in Pr Cl though, the resistances state Reflect and Manipulate, respectively, although I know from testing that their weaknesses are Sleep/Confu, and Terence's Enemy Mechanics FAQ confirms this.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3103 on: 2016-04-01 18:44:15 »
I may test for this when I get home, but I highly suspect that you are wrong.

Did you know that there are various enemies such as the Sahagin that are weak to the physical elements, such as Punch? Although the effect would be "can't miss", not x2 damage.
Also, the Corvette takes double damage from Confusion, and Palmer takes double damage from Sleep. Not sure what's going on in Pr Cl though, the resistances state Reflect and Manipulate, respectively, although I know from testing that their weaknesses are Sleep/Confu, and Terence's Enemy Mechanics FAQ confirms this.



This is from a default Steam FF7 scene.bin.

NFITC1 mentioned somewhere that the PrC tool has some of the statuses mixed up in the elemental bit, so it's the tool that's wrong.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 18:46:38 by Sega Chief »

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3104 on: 2016-04-01 18:57:23 »
That's the first time I hear about the Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch. I always thought there was only Cut/Hit/Shoot. (Learned of Shout because of Bahamuts in NT).

Also, I never found the reason of it, but all Aerith limits have the Hidden element. Did you change it in NT Sega Chief ?

I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).

Put a non-elemental Materia like Barrier or Cover or something into Cloud's weapon and then combine it with Elemental for 2x damage (doesn't work for his Limits, which use separate formulas/elements).
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 18:59:58 by aquecoucou »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3105 on: 2016-04-01 19:06:12 »
That's the first time I hear about the Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch. I always thought there was only Cut/Hit/Shoot. (Learned of Shout because of Bahamuts in NT).

Also, I never found the reason of it, but all Aerith limits have the Hidden element. Did you change it in NT Sega Chief ?

I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).


NT uses physical elements to an extent; along with Bahamut's Shout, Protect Vests will halve Shoot damage. Cut, Hit, and Punch don't have any weaknesses/resistances associated with them. As for Aeris' Limits, I didn't change them to Hidden; that's probably a default .EXE thing. Elemental should work with any of them; in the Kernel, every Materia has an Element with Hidden being the 'default' one if there's no obvious element for it. That being said, give it a try with Cover and let me know if it doesn't.

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3106 on: 2016-04-01 21:09:12 »
I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).
I wouldn't really take anything on Wikia as gospel. To my knowledge ALL non-elemental Materias will pair with Elemental to grant "Hidden", with the exception of other Support Mateiras, and Restore (and Possibly Full Cure???). As Sega mentions, if Cover does not grant Hidden please be sure to let us know. In fact, I may just test this for myself.

@Sega - yes, while Smoke Bullet does indeed carry the Hidden Element property (as does a number of Status changing attacks), the Attack Strength is 0, so the move doesn't inflict any actual damage, and as far as I am aware of, Hidden (elemental) protection will not nullify Status changes. I'm not 100% sure, but i am 99.9% sure of this, and I'd probably put money on it  ;)

-Edit- Ok, I've just been looking around for other Status changing attacks that use the Hidden Element, and I've found a few, the Dorky Breath's "Funny Breath" being one of them. Looking at the differentiation between Funny Breath and Smoke Bullet, I can see that Smoke Shot is a physical attack, whereas Funny Breath is a magical attack.

Are you suggesting that a physical Status changing attack can be blocked by pairing Elemental with whatever Element that status changing attack holds (similar to how poison works)? Ok, now I HAVE to test. I'll report back.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 21:58:14 by DynamixDJ »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3107 on: 2016-04-01 21:51:26 »
@Sega - yes, while Smoke Shot does indeed carry the Hidden Element property (as does a number of Status changing attacks), the Attack Strength is 0, so the move doesn't inflict any actual damage, and as far as I am aware of, Hidden (elemental) protection will not nullify Status changes. I'm not 100% sure, but i am 99.9% sure of this, and I'd probably put money on it  ;)

-Edit- Ok, I've just been looking around for other Status changing attacks that use the Hidden Element, and I've found a few, the Dorky Breath's "Funny Breath" being one of them. Looking at the differentiation between Funny Breath and Smoke-Shot, I can see that Smoke Shot is a physical attack, whereas Funny Breath is a magical attack.

Are you suggesting that a physical Status changing attack can be blocked by pairing Elemental with whatever Element that status changing attack holds (similar to how poison works)? Ok, now I HAVE to test. I'll report back.

Oh, you were meaning the status-blocking thing? I'm not 100% sure myself, I think I threw it on a set-up once in NT and the attack missed. Might have just been a natural miss, but I was assuming it was similar to how Poison works (though that might be hard-coded and unique, like Earth). I also read in one of the FAQs that absorbing an element meant that the statuses it inflicts are actually healed off you instead but I've not tested that at all.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 21:53:10 by Sega Chief »

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3108 on: 2016-04-01 22:44:18 »
Oh, you were meaning the status-blocking thing? I'm not 100% sure myself, I think I threw it on a set-up once in NT and the attack missed. Might have just been a natural miss, but I was assuming it was similar to how Poison works (though that might be hard-coded and unique, like Earth). I also read in one of the FAQs that absorbing an element meant that the statuses it inflicts are actually healed off you instead but I've not tested that at all.
Holy [swear]ing [swear], I don't [swear]ing believe it!!!!! I (we) have just discovered a new way of using Hidden that none of the sources document!!!

Ok, I battled with the Attack Squad, and all of their Smoke Bullets failed to cast Darkness, with perpetual "misses". So I unequipped the Mystile, toned all of my characters down to Lv 15 (and removed all Source bonuses), and gave the players a Lv 1, 2 & 3 Elemental. Guess what? Same result, except the Lv1 Elemental did not nullify Darkness (as you would expect).

So, does this just work with "Hidden" physical attacks, or does it also work with magical attacks too? Over to Nibelheim I went to fight the Dorky faces. YES!!! Not once did Curses or Funny Breath inflict player 2 or 3 with Silence or Confusion. The "miss" sign pops up, which would normally suggest that one is vulnerable but the attack missed, but we all know there are cracks in the coding, and we've just found another one! Nice work!!!!

I'm now going to go on a scavenge to find all "Hidden" attacks in the game, and then I'll do some more tests. My walkthrough is now going to be getting mulled over I feel, as I know have a much better strategy to offer for at least the Shinra Mansion. I'm excited to see how many other areas Hidden can now be taken advantage of   :) :D ;D

Oh, and there was no HP restore with the Mastered Elemental. I suspect that only applies when you are Poisoned, as the poison damage has the Poison Element, so you heal yourself every time the poison kicks in.

-edit- I'v just tried it with the Cover Materia too, same result!
« Last Edit: 2016-04-01 23:08:53 by DynamixDJ »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3109 on: 2016-04-01 23:43:27 »
Holy [swear]ing [swear], I don't [swear]ing believe it!!!!! I (we) have just discovered a new way of using Hidden that none of the sources document!!!

Ok, I battled with the Attack Squad, and all of their Smoke Bullets failed to cast Darkness, with perpetual "misses". So I unequipped the Mystile, toned all of my characters down to Lv 15 (and removed all Source bonuses), and gave the players a Lv 1, 2 & 3 Elemental. Guess what? Same result, except the Lv1 Elemental did not nullify Darkness (as you would expect).

So, does this just work with "Hidden" physical attacks, or does it also work with magical attacks too? Over to Nibelheim I went to fight the Dorky faces. YES!!! Not once did Curses or Funny Breath inflict player 2 or 3 with Silence or Confusion. The "miss" sign pops up, which would normally suggest that one is vulnerable but the attack missed, but we all know there are cracks in the coding, and we've just found another one! Nice work!!!!

I'm now going to go on a scavenge to find all "Hidden" attacks in the game, and then I'll do some more tests. My walkthrough is now going to be getting mulled over I feel, as I know have a much better strategy to offer for at least the Shinra Mansion. I'm excited to see how many other areas Hidden can now be taken advantage of   :) :D ;D

Oh, and there was no HP restore with the Mastered Elemental. I suspect that only applies when you are Poisoned, as the poison damage has the Poison Element, so you heal yourself every time the poison kicks in.

-edit- I'v just tried it with the Cover Materia too, same result!

Avoiding Funny Breath would be handy; confusion is a huge pain and those Smoke Bullets are really annoying as well. Smoke Bullet was the only one I knew of that had Hidden on it though, besides Ultima Beam.

On the subject, there's a wee secret with the Dorky Faces. Dunno if it's guide-worthy, but might be a nice factoid when writing about the area: https://youtu.be/qpN5qJbb7io

Yuffie1983

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3110 on: 2016-04-01 23:54:04 »
If you are using the 7TH heaven Iro how do you go about patching the game with hot fixes and the Flevels and to keep it up to date. Thanks for any help in advanced.

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3111 on: 2016-04-02 00:09:12 »
Avoiding Funny Breath would be handy; confusion is a huge pain and those Smoke Bullets are really annoying as well. Smoke Bullet was the only one I knew of that had Hidden on it though, besides Ultima Beam.

On the subject, there's a wee secret with the Dorky Faces. Dunno if it's guide-worthy, but might be a nice factoid when writing about the area: https://youtu.be/qpN5qJbb7io
I actually noticed Ascend when I was looking into the Dorky Face, but I didn't question it as I thought it was an unnamed attack. Speaking of which, how do you toggle an attack name's appearance when used? I can't seem to find this anywhere.

But yeah, that move is definitely cool, and is most definitely guide-worthy, well, my guide anyway; I'm trying to go to another level with it. i intend to (eventually) sit down with the AI script for every single enemy, to then translate it into plain, normal understandable English (to the non-technically minded). I would have picked that move up myself, but it's nice to know about it in advance!!

Also, I have defense against Funny Breath for 2 characters by that point in the game (Added Effect & Peace Ring), now I have a third defence for Confu, provided that the Elemental is Lv 2 by that point, which I really can't remember if it should be or not (without copious amounts of grinding)

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3112 on: 2016-04-02 00:23:00 »
Is the second and third fight with Cid's Protege meant to be so easy? The love buster died in one hit and so did the dragon. One bolt 3 with 2300~ damage managed to kill the dragon and it just felt a bit cheap.
EDIT: After checking in PrC it has 255 health, I'm sure that's a mistake.
Also, I can't seem to get the encounters for Yuffie's and Cloud's level 4 limits. I am on Disc 3 and for some reason the Cid one was the only one I was able to get.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-02 00:27:06 by FifulX »

HeaN

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3113 on: 2016-04-02 00:24:15 »
Spoiler Alert! Just wanted to say THANK YOU SegaChief for this USELESSS Enemy! Hate you!

SPOILER ALERT

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3114 on: 2016-04-02 00:29:41 »
Nullifying statuses from Hidden attacks could also be handy in Mt. Corel against the Cokatolis (petrify smog) and would let you keep your softs.

Edit: Ah yeah but you won't get an Elemental lv 2 at this point :(
« Last Edit: 2016-04-02 00:33:27 by aquecoucou »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3115 on: 2016-04-02 00:30:38 »
If you are using the 7TH heaven Iro how do you go about patching the game with hot fixes and the Flevels and to keep it up to date. Thanks for any help in advanced.

You can't, I'm afraid. I need to update the IRO on my end. There is a patch thing, but I dunno how it works.

I actually noticed Ascend when I was looking into the Dorky Face, but I didn't question it as I thought it was an unnamed attack. Speaking of which, how do you toggle an attack name's appearance when used? I can't seem to find this anywhere.

But yeah, that move is definitely cool, and is most definitely guide-worthy, well, my guide anyway; I'm trying to go to another level with it. i intend to (eventually) sit down with the AI script for every single enemy, to then translate it into plain, normal understandable English (to the non-technically minded). I would have picked that move up myself, but it's nice to know about it in advance!!

Also, I have defense against Funny Breath for 2 characters by that point in the game (Added Effect & Peace Ring), now I have a third defence for Confu, provided that the Elemental is Lv 2 by that point, which I really can't remember if it should be or not (without copious amounts of grinding)

Elemental won't reach Lv.2 naturally by that point, if I remember right. Although maybe with Platinum Bangles you can; it's been a long time since I played vanilla outside of a challenge run.

Is the second and third fight with Cid's Protege meant to be so easy? The love buster died in one hit and so did the dragon. One bolt 3 with 2300~ damage managed to kill the dragon and it just felt a bit cheap.

Sounds like someone left debug HP values in again :v
I'll patch both it and the IRO tonight.

Spoiler Alert! Just wanted to say THANK YOU SegaChief for this USELESSS Enemy! Hate you!

SPOILER ALERT

Someone on another stream got super paranoid when he approached the second web blocking the back of the cave and started talking about 'what if there's a giant red super spider in this web?! D:' so I made a red super stinger and then didn't put it on one of the webs.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3116 on: 2016-04-02 00:35:55 »
Spoiler Alert! Just wanted to say THANK YOU SegaChief for this USELESSS Enemy! Hate you!

SPOILER ALERT

that enemy's not useless. iirc it has a rare steal and a super rare steal.

dont remember exactly what the super rare steal was but it was something i really needed at the time

FifulX

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3117 on: 2016-04-02 00:40:28 »
Hm, is the "where is the thing" file in the documentation up to date, because I'm having problems getting some of the events like
Spoiler: show
Cloud's in Shinra Mansion and Yuffie's when talking to Godo


On another note, what is the deal with the Curator? Is that even beatable or is it just a joke boss?

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3118 on: 2016-04-02 00:40:56 »
Speaking of which, how do you toggle an attack name's appearance when used?
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=16155.0

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3119 on: 2016-04-02 00:57:15 »
Hm, is the "where is the thing" file in the documentation up to date, because I'm having problems getting some of the events like
Spoiler: show
Cloud's in Shinra Mansion and Yuffie's when talking to Godo


On another note, what is the deal with the Curator? Is that even beatable or is it just a joke boss?

I'll double-check their flags.

And the deal with the curator is that you do not enter the Midgar Diorama outside of visiting hours.

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3120 on: 2016-04-02 02:43:47 »
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=16155.0
Thanks!! The last hour of learning has been interesting!

I've stood down on listing every attack that uses Hidden, as it's too big of a shift in focus from the current projects I've got on the go, but I do plan on making an "Attack Data Chart" at some point; that'll be the time to look further into Hidden!

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3121 on: 2016-04-02 03:32:46 »
I once worked on something that generated enemy ability information. These have Hidden element:
Dorky Face's Curses
Hell Rider VR2's Electromag
Dorky Face's Funny Breath
Demons Gate's Petrif-Eye
Cokatolis's Petrify Smog
Attack Squad's + Marine's Smoke Bullet
Gagighandi's Stone Stare
Bagrisk's Stone Strike
Ultimate Weapon's Ultima Beam

In the JORG version:
Ultimate Weapon's アルテマビーム (Ultima Beam)
Flower Prong's エネルギー吸収 (Energy Siphon)
Garuda's おどり (Dance, both of them)
Bandit's かつあげ (Hold-up)
Griffin's くじゃく (Peacock)
Sea Worm's, Land Worm's サンドストーム (Sandstorm)
Joker's ジョーカー (Joker)
Bagrisk's ストーンストライク (Stone Strike)
Joker's スペード (Spade)
Attack Squad's スモーク弾 (Smoke Bullet)
Joker's ダイヤ (Diamond)
Twin Brains', Chekhov's にらみ (Stare Down)
Dorky Face's のろいの言葉 (Curses)
Bloatfloat's バキューム (Vacuum)
Godo's ビーストソード (Beast Sword)
Dorky Face's ファニーのいき (Funny Breath)
Unknown's ブラスター (Blaster)
Kyuvilduns's へばりつき (Lay Flat)
Grenade's, Bomb's ボム爆発 (Bomb Blast)
Yang's ヤン自爆 (Suicide Yang)
Dragon Rider's ライダーブレス (Rider Breath)
Carry Armor's ラピスレーザー (Lapis Laser)
Twin Brain's, Chekhov's 吸収 (Absorb)
Bandit's 強奪 (Mug)
CMD. Grand Horn's, Bagnadrana's 毒ブレス (Poison Breath)
Killbin's 物理攻撃 (x)
8 eye's 眼力 (Eyesight, all four of them)
Demons Gate's 石化アイ (Petrif-Eye)
Cokatolis's 石化スモッグ (Petrify Smog)
Gagighandi's 石化にらみ (Stone Stare)
Desert Sahagin's 砂鉄砲 (Sandgun)
Hell Rider VR2's 磁場転換 (Electromag)
Flower Prong's 花粉 (Pollen)
Serpent's 龍宮の舞 (Dragon Dance)
« Last Edit: 2016-04-02 18:59:32 by JBedford128 »

Skirmish

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3122 on: 2016-04-02 07:28:36 »
Now that I know there might be an event for running the game at rank 0, I already know what my next run will be seeing how great the fort condor battles reward is if you don't miss any out.
As someone doing the Rank 0 run, I would have to say the most difficult thing so far has been stopping the Train with the Mega-Materia from crashing into North Corel. Nothing like uttering the phrase "Hurry the f**k up!" while X-ATM Scorpion is "Processing...". After quite a few tries I finally managed it with 7 seconds left on the clock.

As a reference point, after saving North Corel from further destruction, I had Cid at Level 48, Vincent at Level 50 and Yuffie at Level 51 and that was after obtaining alot of EXP during the whole thing. With the EXP rates in 1.4 I'm not sure what level the enemies for this section of the game are designed around, I've fought a few random battles here and there (Mainly for gathering some Enemy Skills) but haven't done any real grinding so to speak.

Skirmish

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3123 on: 2016-04-02 09:50:52 »
Just decided to check on something. With the final Fort Condor battle, if you let the enemy invade you'll fight a miniboss called CMD. Grand Horn. Now this boss isn't too tricky (Large amount of HP, Moderate Strength Physical and Earth attacks and a Poison Breath attack. Can still cause problems for Front Row characters), however is it intended that he gives you absolutely nothing for beating him? Nothing to Steal, 0 EXP, AP and Gil for defeating him aswell.

Is it possible you can look into this because I have known bosses to be cheap on the spoils of victory, but this is just... wow...

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #3124 on: 2016-04-02 10:43:38 »
you're not ever supposed to let them reach the fort

you dont even get the prize for defending if you let them reach it