Author Topic: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?  (Read 24754 times)

StickySock

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #50 on: 2014-03-05 17:51:46 »
FFX was a very linear game in the sense that the story shuttled you along from area to area, without leaving a huge amount to explore. The reason why it wasn't a problem is because there are still a lot of extras to do in the games, and secrets to uncover. The story and writing were also great, save for two or three generally unlikeable characters.

People point at 13's flaws of being linear as just the map design. Sure, the map design is laughably linear with no places to go, but that wasn't the only problem. What people (and designers obviously) overlook is the importance of having things to do or discover within whatever map you have. (EDIT: That's the reason why FF13-2 and Lightning Returns still have a weird feeling of linearity, even though the maps are significantly bigger. There needs to be things to do and they need to be interesting). P4G has maps that are as linear as you can get but if "feels" less linear because the areas are jam packed with things to do and secrets to uncover. Not to mention the writing in P4G is absolutely stellar, and makes those secrets so interesting and addictive. 13 had absolutely nothing to uncover until the very end of the game, and when you finally had something else to do (side missions on pulse) it was as boring, bland, and poorly written as the rest of game.

What people are really missing in these games are secrets to uncover and non-essential side missions that are cleverly written or interesting in some way. Square seems to dump most of their money into graphics and QA (most of Square's games run flawlessly, which is admirable when compared to some other companies), but they don't realize that it's those little secrets which reward players for investing their time and attention into the world that makes players really appreciate it. TWEWY and KH are games that seem to understand that, and that's the biggest reason I still have some hope reserved for FF15, despite all the negativity generated from the 13 trilogy.
« Last Edit: 2014-03-05 17:55:22 by StickySock »

gjoerulv

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #51 on: 2014-03-05 19:38:58 »
I believe X was far from Linear.

All FF's (not counting spinnoffs, MMOs and sequels) are linear. Both story and exploration wise. Some hide it more than others. (Even Gta is linear).

Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

Reading through this topic I see some hidden assumptions on what a good game is...

What the hell is wrong eith squeeny? No passion. The top ups may have some passion for their work, but the staff is only doing their job.

Helladen

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #52 on: 2014-03-05 20:25:34 »
Final Fantasy 15 is the key to reviving Final Fantasy. Turn-based battles are not that popular anymore, they are dead in a sense. Bravely Default kind of brings some new life to turn-based battles, but it needs more than that to come back to life.

genesis063

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #53 on: 2014-03-05 20:28:22 »
FFX was a very linear game in the sense that the story shuttled you along from area to area, without leaving a huge amount to explore. The reason why it wasn't a problem is because there are still a lot of extras to do in the games, and secrets to uncover. The story and writing were also great, save for two or three generally unlikeable characters.

People point at 13's flaws of being linear as just the map design. Sure, the map design is laughably linear with no places to go, but that wasn't the only problem. What people (and designers obviously) overlook is the importance of having things to do or discover within whatever map you have. (EDIT: That's the reason why FF13-2 and Lightning Returns still have a weird feeling of linearity, even though the maps are significantly bigger. There needs to be things to do and they need to be interesting). P4G has maps that are as linear as you can get but if "feels" less linear because the areas are jam packed with things to do and secrets to uncover. Not to mention the writing in P4G is absolutely stellar, and makes those secrets so interesting and addictive. 13 had absolutely nothing to uncover until the very end of the game, and when you finally had something else to do (side missions on pulse) it was as boring, bland, and poorly written as the rest of game.

What people are really missing in these games are secrets to uncover and non-essential side missions that are cleverly written or interesting in some way. Square seems to dump most of their money into graphics and QA (most of Square's games run flawlessly, which is admirable when compared to some other companies), but they don't realize that it's those little secrets which reward players for investing their time and attention into the world that makes players really appreciate it. TWEWY and KH are games that seem to understand that, and that's the biggest reason I still have some hope reserved for FF15, despite all the negativity generated from the 13 trilogy.
Going off of this I guess it doesn't help that they are doing what five projects at a time?

StickySock

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #54 on: 2014-03-05 21:36:35 »
All FF's (not counting spinnoffs, MMOs and sequels) are linear. Both story and exploration wise. Some hide it more than others. (Even Gta is linear).

Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

Reading through this topic I see some hidden assumptions on what a good game is...

What the hell is wrong eith squeeny? No passion. The top ups may have some passion for their work, but the staff is only doing their job.

I don't know about that. I would say the director and writers hold most of the blame, though I don't know how high up you would consider their status. The programmers and artists seem to have done an amazing job on all three 13 games. The flaws in the games are more fundamental than just lazy work by the team.

genesis063

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #55 on: 2014-03-05 22:07:40 »
This is a classic case of wishing we knew how things work so we can give our concerns to the right people instead of dumping it all on Nomura.  I love the designs on all their games as well.  I just wish we could tell the people where it is lacking on how we like to see it fixed.

Covarr

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #56 on: 2014-03-05 23:12:50 »
Bravely Default kind of brings some new life to turn-based battles, but it needs more than that to come back to life.
South Park: The Stick of Truth has surprisingly deep turn-based battles, at least from what I've played so far. In particular, I like the "bleeding" mechanic, which is like poison but stackable, and the ability for enemies to swap their weakness on-the-fly by changing stances adds a fair bit of depth also (though not a lot because you can have a melee weapon and a ranged weapon equipped at the same time).

I think the reason turn-based battles aren't popular these days is largely because studios don't have the confidence to try. When I look at recent games with turn-based combat, I see very few games coming out (Bravely Default, Fire Emblem), but those I do see seem to be getting good reviews. I think if more studios would just release these games, they would do well.

LeonhartGR

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #57 on: 2014-03-06 00:14:53 »
The stick of truth is a surprise refreshment for todays standards! I like it as well and wish to play it sometime!
« Last Edit: 2014-03-06 20:24:08 by LeonhartGR »

gjoerulv

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #58 on: 2014-03-06 17:08:44 »
I don't know about that. I would say the director and writers hold most of the blame, though I don't know how high up you would consider their status. The programmers and artists seem to have done an amazing job on all three 13 games. The flaws in the games are more fundamental than just lazy work by the team.

Yes the graphics are amazing.
Lack of passion =/= lazy. It's a lack of passion in general amongst the whole team.
Mass Effect 3 had the same problem.

Oh, Stick of truth. Can't wait to play it!  ;D

SilverSpades

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #59 on: 2014-03-09 03:34:25 »
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.

LeonhartGR

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #60 on: 2014-03-09 13:32:30 »
Stick of truth did what Square should have done with their battle system long ago before releasing the new FFs... And they could still keep their awesome graphics in the game.
« Last Edit: 2014-03-09 13:42:39 by LeonhartGR »

DLPB

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #61 on: 2014-03-09 13:35:17 »
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.

No they're not.  But when you replace a system with another, you should make it work just as well, if not better.  The systems in FF12 13 and beyond are inferior to 7s.   1- 10 had tactics...  the implementation of their battle system could hve been better, but the actual systems are far more intelligent and have a much greater potential.

Having mindless slashing and numbers flying all over with no idea what is going on is lazy design.
« Last Edit: 2014-03-09 21:36:34 by DLPB »

LeonhartGR

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #62 on: 2014-03-09 13:45:18 »
...numbers flying all over with no idea what is going on...

Haha... that sounded so like from the mouth of an old folk (like us though) :D
« Last Edit: 2014-03-09 13:48:05 by LeonhartGR »

Covarr

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #63 on: 2014-03-09 17:38:55 »
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.
I completely agree. There are some very good action RPGs out there. But through fourteen years of turn-based Final Fantasy games, putting that name on it DID imply turn-based. They had a concept, and with each iteration they evolved and expanded upon it... until FFXI, where they began a new trend of making each new entry completely different. Making games with different combat styles is fine, but it was never in keeping with what Final Fantasy was.

cmh175

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #64 on: 2014-03-09 20:03:58 »
Stick of truth did what Square should have done with their battle system long ago before releasing the new FFs... And they could still keep their awesome graphics in the game.

Agreed I was actually impressed with how they did that. Not only that but that they're releasing patches and updates taking care of gameplay issues before worrying about DLC content. Very refreshing with developers like WB Montreal no longer supporting glitches in Arkham Origins and now only focusing on dlc. Who the hell is buying dlc content for a broken game that's likely to never be fixed?

Off subject, but yeah FF and Square have been gradually adapting to western game styles more and more. 

Erdrick The Hero

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #65 on: 2014-03-11 05:23:57 »
What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
There are two sides to this question for me:

SIDE A: The side that has been talked about in this thread: Why did they ruin Final Fantasy?

My first FF game was Final Fantasy for the NES. Sure, the game's almost 10 years older than I am, but my mom kept her NES and all her games around, and now they sit in my bedroom. I grew up playing, besides Mario, SE's two major franchises: Dragon Quest (originally known in the States as Dragon Warrior) and Final Fantasy. Anyways, I went from FF1 to FF7, as at the time we didn't have a SNES. (We have one nowadays, but still don't have IV/VI for it... I've got them both on the PS1 though.) Of course, being like 5 years old when I started being able to read on my own, I never finished either of them because I was an impatient child. We've got every main FF game up to 12 in some form or another now, but I have yet to finish any of them, actually. I'm working on VII now though. But  I've noticed that none of the games past IX, including spinoffs, (besides Itadaki Street which I was able to import - though I got that for the Dragon Quest side mainly) are any fun for me. Besides what has already been mentioned by others, I don't really have anything to add here.

SIDE B: Why won't Square Enix release more Dragon Quest games in the US (or other non-japanese countries)? I mean, seriously! I know this forum is for FF fans, but for those here who haven't played any Dragon Warrior or Dragon Quest game, you really should try one (or mulitple, or all of them) out. Dragon Quest has evolved throughout the years, yes, but it has managed to maintain storytelling and a classic JRPG feel throughout it's run. Even Dragon Quest X, which is an MMO, is fun - even fun enough to play in a language I don't understand. (Unfortunately, though I managed to play during the PC open beta, I cannot afford to pay the monthly fee to keep playing currently. And even if I had the money, I wouldn't be getting what I was paying for, you know, not being able to understand any of the story.) The only DQ game I feel (Beside X, because I can't judge it in japanese) that is lacking in story, is DQIX on the DS. It was disappointing, but I can chalk that up to being an experimental game - it was Dragon Quest's first foray into multiplayer. (Who thought that a multiplayer RPG on a handheld system would work? I guess it worked OK in japan due to the massive fanbase, but internationally I feel it was a bit of a flop.)

Also, I have to agree with Kalderasha about DQ8 being the best RPG on the PS2, but I really didn't like the "enhancements" made for the international release. Chalk that up to notalgia though. Oh, and load times.

Jaki

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #66 on: 2014-03-11 06:24:59 »
.
« Last Edit: 2014-06-19 13:33:48 by Jaki »

DLPB

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #67 on: 2014-03-11 10:27:58 »
What if the next FF is good? Should we ask what the hell is wrong with this thread?

No, that wouldn't change anything that has been said here.  And the chances of the next one being good are almost 0.

Dark Phoenix

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #68 on: 2014-03-12 02:36:11 »
Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

North American FFX had simple Sphere Grid only.

Anyway, I absolutely loathed FFX.  As I said, it was the game that made me stop buying games in the series near release date.  I still rank Tidus one of the most obnoxious main characters ever written for a video game.

Tekkie.X

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #69 on: 2014-03-12 11:32:33 »
I still rank Tidus one of the most obnoxious main characters ever written for a video game.


"This is my story, MY STORY, MY STORY"

fern off you annoying twunt, it's Yuna's story, you're just here for the ride 'cause yo daddy is a giant monster you floppy haired prick.

Shard

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #70 on: 2014-03-12 13:28:26 »
FFX would have been far more enjoyable if Tidus wasn't a worthless moron. It had a really good plot and the battle system was actually really good.

Him and Blitzball ruined that game. Pretty much the only reason I ever replay it is because of Auron.

LeonhartGR

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #71 on: 2014-03-12 15:02:06 »
Thanks guys! I thought I was one of the few who thought Mr. "meh... meh... meh... I'm a dream!" was an idiot...

genesis063

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #72 on: 2014-03-14 10:29:07 »
FFX would have been far more enjoyable if Tidus wasn't a worthless moron. It had a really good plot and the battle system was actually really good.

Him and Blitzball ruined that game. Pretty much the only reason I ever replay it is because of Auron.
Am I the only one that sees him as ignorant?  You have to understand he is brand new to that world.  More or less it really was his story everything in the game was related to him.  The Aeons chose him to end their sleep not Yuna.  So imagine you are in Tidus's shoes in a new world of course you be excited and dumbfounded on countless occasions.  He and Aaron actually had the most sense out of the bunch.  Everyone else is all gun hoe about the whole sacrifice your guardian to become a new final Aeon.  Tidus was the only one to question that it could be a bad idea and it was really fishy.  I think people underestimate him and judge him to much.  As for the father thing who doesn't have atleast some parent issues in your life at one point in time?  On another note yes Aaron was pretty bad ass.

DLPB

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #73 on: 2014-03-14 10:49:21 »
Of course it was "his story", he is the main protagonist that the player identifies with and guides.  And when someone is telling a story from their own perspective, they don't say "let me tell you about my friend's story" .  That's just nitpicking.

I also don't see his voice actor as any worse than what is normally in the games industry.  I thought it was generally very solid for a game.

Nightmare799

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Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
« Reply #74 on: 2014-03-18 15:19:27 »

"This is my story, MY STORY, MY STORY"

f*ck off you annoying twunt, it's Yuna's story, you're just here for the ride 'cause yo daddy is a giant monster you floppy haired prick.

Why so much hate? He was actually pretty pretty cool and likeable. I cant really remember him being ass to anyone ever.

People say he was a crybaby, but I would like to see anyone out of people who played this game being torn away from their world, friends, family etc. , and being thrown into different completely unknown world (or rather age) and being perfectly fine with all that.

Not only that, but the guys father was a drunkard that dissapeared when he was 10 years old (not to say Yecht was a bad person, as he deeply regretted what kind of father he was), and his mother died of anguish soon afterwards. After he finally finds his place in the zanarkand as player of zanarkand abes... *WHOOSH* Nice life you had there buddy, now it is gone.

That is a lot of bad stuff to happen to ONE person, so give the guy a break already.