Author Topic: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally  (Read 17829 times)

Jeet

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #25 on: 2015-04-26 22:32:40 »
Im glad im not alone to realize how fashion-emo ff7 movies(and sequels) are, for me the most important difference was with zack death ( not the movie but similar ) his death was sad to watch, no music, just the sound of the bullets killing a dying zack, he looked pathetic at this moment and that made his death even more awful, two guys shooting a young man full of dreams and projects.

In crisis core, he is smiling vs 65456776555 soldiers shooting at him, where is the sadness in this trash scene? they totally ruined one of the most epic moment, it was like watching a japanese remake of 300.

I  remember a pessismist story, musics and background for most of the game, if the movie was supposed to be fan service they failed

meesbaker

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #26 on: 2015-04-27 09:20:51 »
nobody ever thought about this, ac was only supposed to bring back the ffvii cast in some cheap dead or alive fighting scheme.

StickySock

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #27 on: 2015-04-28 04:28:45 »
Spirits Within and Advent Children are both so poorly written nobody besides die-hard fans (I am one, but even I had my troubles explaining them to others) has any idea what is going on in either of them. They are both technical marvels for the time and absolutely gorgeous animations for sure, but I don't think I really have any other praises to give other than that. For AC I will put up some pros and cons:

Pro: More Cloud!
Con: They ruined his character development and helped create the alternate universe where Cloud is emo and Squall is badass in Kingdom Hearts (I claim it all started with KH1 anyways).

Pro: Tifa, Aerith, and Yuffie are very attractive!
Con: Can't tell them apart from each other or Kadaj or Cloud. They all look like fairly bangable chicks.

Pro: Fight scenes have cool action!
Con: Action drags on too long and some scenes cross the line into absurdity.

Pro: New villains!
Con: The villains are extremely lame and in the worst way possible.

Pro: Sephiroth is awesome!
Con: He has no reason for being in the movie than the other villains sucking so hard.

Pro: The movie has some cool things in it!
Con: For every cool thing there are many more terrible things to bury it.

DLPB

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #28 on: 2015-04-29 17:26:28 »

In crisis core, he is smiling vs 65456776555 soldiers shooting at him, where is the sadness in this trash scene? they totally ruined one of the most epic moment, it was like watching a japanese remake of 300.

That goes right back to how good storytelling works.  Less is often more, and realism often has a far bigger impact on you than crazy, over-the-top scenes. It's why the battle between Vader and Luke in Jedi is  1000000X superior to the prequel fights.  If you watch it, Luke is just smashing him, there is no choreography nonsense that doesn't end.  It's believable and feels real. Spinning around with super light sabres (think back to that stupid General Grevious) comes across as lame, tiresome and unnecessary.  It doesn't make you feel anything.

Seeing Zack shot dead like a piece of nothing in the original game had far more impact. So many people fail to see this.  It's why I have long been against a remake of VII... because I know they'll completely mess this up, just like when Metal Gear Twin Snakes added all those stupid Matrix stunts.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-29 17:48:37 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #29 on: 2015-04-29 18:05:17 »
just like when Metal Gear Twin Snakes added all those stupid Matrix stunts.
As bad as this was, it wasn't remotely the biggest problem with The Twin Snakes. Far worse was porting over the AI and new moves from Metal Gear Solid 2 without tweaking the levels to compensate. At least one boss became far too easy, and most of the carefully crafted stealth segments from the original simply didn't work right anymore. You can't design levels for a dumb AI and then stick in a smart one, y'know?

Jeet

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #30 on: 2015-04-29 18:42:15 »
Totally agree with luke fight, intense, short and realistic, I never had this feeling in the prequels, ( It  looked more  like a cartoon movie with all theses retarded androids and jarjar), and its sad because i really liked the idea of retracing the story of such  interesting characters like vader, and obi. I personally think that  movies follows the same path than videogames, tons of visual and empty story/backgrounds, Of course there is still exceptions..

DLPB

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #31 on: 2015-04-29 19:57:32 »
The mistake with the prequels starts with the word 'prequels'.  The idea to maximize profits to tell a story that wasn't THAT deep and wasn't really needed (in the case of FF7 Preq-Seq they are totally redundant).  A 3 hour film showing how Anakin turned to the Dark Side would have worked wonders (and it SHOULD have been done as a side story to a bigger story, NOT as the MAIN story).  But, you see... they wanted maximum profits, not maximum storytelling. The same problem occurred with the Hobbit prequels...where they made a small book into 3 long CGI battle fests to compensate.  Exact same reason, exact same outcome. The drive for money way, way outdoing the drive to make good art.

And it's being done again with the Star Wars sequels.  Same mindset will only lead to same outcome.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-29 19:59:30 by DLPB »

meesbaker

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #32 on: 2015-04-30 06:47:29 »
Totally agree on what you said DLBP. Prequels are mostly an excuse to get more money out of a popular plot and if the story as already finished you just go back in time and make up some nonsense story about any detail that wasn't fully explained yet (probably as you said, because nobody cared).

There are good prequels though, the third underworld movie for instance :-D

gjoerulv

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #33 on: 2015-04-30 08:28:37 »
As far as I'm concerned AC never happened and is not canon. It's a fanservice fanfic. Turn your brain off and it's cool to look at. That's all it got imo.

meesbaker

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #34 on: 2015-04-30 16:42:30 »
Thats pretty much what I say whenever people bring up AC references or use it as a source on a ffvii discussion. For me that goes for the whole compilation, though. Genesis and all this nonsense wasnt there either.

DLPB

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #35 on: 2015-04-30 17:31:54 »
Thats pretty much what I say whenever people bring up AC references or use it as a source on a ffvii discussion. For me that goes for the whole compilation, though. Genesis and all this nonsense wasnt there either.

There's nothing more annoying than "debating" with someone who actually takes that badly written garbage seriously and as part of the story.  It ain't.  There's only one story in FF7 and that's the original game.  It happens with Trek fans a lot too... they'll defend a badly written story by referencing something in the future... or debating episodes prior as if the future episodes were all preplanned.  It really is absurd. It gets worse when people start to debate what characters would or would not have done.  Like these characters are real people. 

I've seen funny threads like "Who did Cloud like more, Tifa or Aerith?"  The answer is...  the characters are not real, therefore "he" could not "like" anything.  The story doesn't even go into any real detail on that because it's just childish bullstrawberries. What matters is that you can understand and relate to the characters and that they are believable in the fiction.  There is no "What did X think / do / feel" because they aren't real.  It's what YOU feel and how YOU would react in those situations that has meaning.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-30 17:36:36 by DLPB »

Ragna

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #36 on: 2015-04-30 17:34:51 »
As far as I'm concerned AC never happened and is not canon. It's a fanservice fanfic. Turn your brain off and it's cool to look at. That's all it got imo.
Thats pretty much what I say whenever people bring up AC references or use it as a source on a ffvii discussion. For me that goes for the whole compilation, though. Genesis and all this nonsense wasnt there either.

https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/They_Changed_It,_Now_It_Sucks
https://allthetropes.orain.org/w/index.php?title=Ruined_FOREVER_%28Darth_Wiki%29&redirect=no
https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Fanon_Discontinuity
https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Fanon

So anyone feels entitled enough as to say what's the canon or isn't, now? I hate when people think themselves as the owner of a story or series. They sometimes refer to hypothetical inconsistencies, most of the time false.
It's like what's happening now with Dragon Ball getting new content from the original author, Akira Toriyama, and people hating it without even having watched it, sometimes even saying they'd prefer more GT from Toei Animation or that it should have ended after the Freezer Saga on Namek. Similar to Star Wars with the Expanded Universe getting erased and new films being made. lol

This kind of fans are never happy. Never. They are usually the worst kind of fan an author has to deal with.

DLPB

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #37 on: 2015-04-30 17:39:09 »
In some stories, you may have a point.  In FF7, it was designed as a closed story and that's why the additions don't work and retcon. The reason why I and others refuse to accept "ff7 canon" is because it was never designed to exist, is poorly implemented and written, and makes the original story worse when even thinking about it.

It's quite possible, and a lot more sane, to debate a standalone story as standalone. In short, I have absolutely no respect for what the writers did adding the preqs and seqs, and no respect for "ff7 canon". The prequels and sequels should never have happened and they only did because of money.  The same with Star Wars and its ridiculous expanded universe, prequels and sequels.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-30 17:43:53 by DLPB »

meesbaker

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #38 on: 2015-04-30 18:44:44 »
Artema, Im perfectly happy with ff7 because I love that game, I mod and play it and I just ignore anything else about the “compilation“. How an author of Squareenix has to deal with someone like me is none of my business, I never asked for any extra ff7 canon and especially with the stuff that exists it is most obvious that it is only about money. They shall stop raping good old ff7 just for coin I just dont accept that.

Whats making sense is making newer releases of the original game for modern platforms. I really appreciate the steam port, that was well done.

gjoerulv

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #39 on: 2015-05-01 00:14:20 »
@Artema there is truth there. IF you consider fiction as a whole that is. When being franchise specific it can get complicated to pinpoint these terms. Especially when it comes to canon vague franchises such as the FF universe.

Some people say dissidia is canon. Some people say kingdom hearts is canon. Even ATB could be canon.

If AC is canon then I'm proud to display my "Fanon Discontinuity".

Actually I'm not THAT big of a fan. I guess if an outsider was asked, he/she would probably say AC is canon. However, when that same outsider is asked if AC is necessary in the FF7 universe, they would probably answer no.

AC, if taken seriously, imo, makes FF7 worse. And the more spin-offs and other FF7 related media you drag in, the worse it gets. Imo.

That being said, I can't say I really care much. I do care in the sense I wish it was better. At least it looks cool and has good action and stuff.
« Last Edit: 2015-05-01 00:16:27 by gjoerulv »

Jeet

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #40 on: 2015-05-02 14:50:43 »
If i remember well the  original FF7 team is different from the guys who made AC, if that was EXACTLY the same team i would accept that AC is canon , ofc i'll still be mad but i'll accept the fact(just like for star wars)

The guys who have made FF compilation thought FF7 was great because Cloud and sephiroth was cool looking, had big swords and superhuman powers. They dont give a sh*t about the story itself , the pessimist background, the personnallity of each characters,even Caith sith story  in the game is more interesting than any AC character's.

I remember these guys in a making of saying things like they spent TONS of time on the mouth's animations, visual is cool sure but theses money makers doesnt desserve the word canon on their work,even if they own the rights

Covarr

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Re: Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally
« Reply #41 on: 2015-05-02 15:23:25 »
If i remember well the  original FF7 team is different from the guys who made AC, if that was EXACTLY the same team i would accept that AC is canon , ofc i'll still be mad but i'll accept the fact(just like for star wars)
They were both written by Kazushige Nojima, but AC and the rest of the compilation were kinda mandated by Square Enix rather than written because the actual staff had an idea.