Author Topic: [SPOILERS] Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes [SPOILERS]  (Read 26120 times)

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #50 on: 2015-12-20 21:28:36 »
Well, I disagree, Ric.  "Really." People who like atrocious music are akin to those who think random smatterings of paint on walls is talented or "art".  They try to come up with some pseudo-intellectual argument also.  But the truth is it just sucks and so do they. There is a reason why some songs and artists survive the test of time, and others do not.  Bieber will be forgotten in years to come.  How many people still listen to the Spice Girls compared to say, Led Zeppelin?

I'd wager you that there is a direct correlation between intelligence and so-called taste. Not a perfect straight line correlation - but there nonetheless. In fact, I know there is.  Almost every single person I've met who is as dumb as a brick is either into modern pop ('90s onwards, I'm talking about), rap, or gangsta hip hop. None of them enjoy classical music. Very few enjoy older bands. It's no coincidence. Clearly, there are exceptions - but that's not the argument here.

Also, a lot of these people are conformists who "enjoy" an "artist" because of the image.  I had a deaf friend who was "in to" Tupac.  When I noted that he was deaf, so how could he like the music, he gave me a lousy excuse that he could still feel the beat.  It was nothing to do with "the beat" and everything to do with the gangster image (himself a wannabe gangster at the time).

But you know what - this argument doesn't lead anywhere except OUTRAGE and counter arguments I've heard 100 times before and dismissed.  But it's my opinion and, well, that's that.  If that makes me an ass or arrogant or any other label you wish to use - cool. I look forward to other people's reviews regarding this film, good or bad.  Metacritic is quite informative at the moment also.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-20 21:56:25 by DLPB »

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #51 on: 2015-12-20 22:17:47 »
Well, I disagree, Ric.  "Really." People who like atrocious music are akin to those who think random smatterings of paint on walls is talented or "art".  They try to come up with some pseudo-intellectual argument also.  But the truth is it just sucks and so do they.

Again, atrocious to you does not mean atrocious to other people. You obviously have an issue with anything that doesn't suit your own personal taste or beliefs so whatever, why do i even bother.

But it's my opinion and, well, that's that.  If that makes me an ass or arrogant or any other label you wish to use - cool

And you're 100% entitled to it. However you could just either try to express it in a not-so-negative way or simply not express it all because in the end of the day, people who enjoyed the movie will not care about your opinion, just like people who listen to Justin Bieber will not care about your opinion.
How about respecting the fact that people are entitled to enjoy whatever it is that they enjoy? Be it music, movies, or videogames regardless if you think they are good or not?
Your opinions don't make you an ass or even arrogant, the way you express them shows a complete lack of respect towards anyone who might have different views than you though.

But the truth is it just sucks and so do they.

With that being said, so do you.

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #52 on: 2015-12-20 22:39:42 »
ok, didn't read anything to avoid getting spoiled... Gonna see it within a week probably.

My predictions, without saying if it's good or bad:

Play on nostalgia. Convoluted story. Good visual effects (duh!). Semi-intresting characters. Luke is  heavily involved with the "twist". New threat (kinda obvious) that rebells defeats against odds.

These are kinda no-brainers, but still, am I right or am i right?

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #53 on: 2015-12-20 23:06:10 »
ok, didn't read anything to avoid getting spoiled... Gonna see it within a week probably.

My predictions, without saying if it's good or bad:

Play on nostalgia. Convoluted story. Good visual effects (duh!). Semi-intresting characters. Luke is  heavily involved with the "twist". New threat (kinda obvious) that rebells defeats against odds.

These are kinda no-brainers, but still, am I right or am i right?

You're not going to believe how much worse it actually is.  But plot hole bonanza and rehash of Episode IV would be close. Oh, and throw in some politically correct rubbish too.  Mix it in.  I'd like to say that "I am not sure" or "I didn't think they'd do that" but from everything I am reading and hearing, they've done pretty much everything I expected... except one thing.  And that thing is so so CRAP and insulting.  But I will wait until you've seen it and see what your opinion is.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-20 23:10:27 by DLPB »

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #54 on: 2015-12-20 23:17:26 »
Politically correct and Feminist positive? Not really, Gwendoline Christie's Captain Phasma who was claimed to be a strong female character, ends up having 6 lines, 3 to 4 minutes of screen time and being about as much use as a chocolate fire-guard in hell on a very hot day, the troopers she commands have more personality.

olearyf2525

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #55 on: 2015-12-21 01:17:17 »
Completely agree with DLPB on this one, hollyweird peer pressure/conformity. Same happened with the Hobbit.

Spoilers. Link instead of direct image. ~Covarr http://i.imgur.com/TmV1ILm.jpg?1
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 05:31:23 by Covarr »

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #56 on: 2015-12-21 03:46:29 »
I'm not even sure if that constitutes a spoiler :P

Covarr

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #57 on: 2015-12-22 06:02:55 »
Okay, having just seen it, I feel qualified to weigh in. I had avoided saying too much in this thread before seeing it, because I like my opinions to be informed. I won't get too specific, but I'm still going to throw a SPOILER WARNING on this post.

Spoiler: show
First off, the problems: There are indeed serious plot holes. It's clear they've tried too hard to stick too close to the plot of A New Hope, and in many cases fallen short because of it. The action sequences are too bright and flashy, making it often difficult to follow what's going on. Too much of this movie is spent with characters running, and the movie as a whole is paced too fast. The fanservice is there, and in some cases it works (Han Solo) and in some cases it doesn't (C-3PO).

But despite all that, I still liked the movie. For all it does wrong, it also does a lot right:

1. The characters are interesting and well developed, and the dialogue is good. One of the biggest problems I had with the prequel trilogy is that there was no internal conflict for any of the characters; everyone was either good or evil. The whole crux of the prequel trilogy was that Anakin was conflicted between the light side and the dark side, but we never really saw that conflict, since he was pretty much all the way dark side from the start. The Force Awakens has no such problem. Nearly every character has some sort of internal conflict they're struggling with, some sort of emotional or character-driven obstacle to overcome, and these things are all believably done and shown in their actions instead of explained through dialogue.

2. There was no unnecessary division between comic characters and serious characters. The movie had its funny moments, and it had its tense moments, and it had its character drama, and those were all done with the same people. No "serious Obi-Wan, slapstick Jar Jar" nonsense. This makes all the characters more relatable.

3. The character relationships were complex, and grew as they got to know each other, based on their actions. Relationships grew naturally, with characters feeling one way about each other at the beginning of the film, another way at the and, and a believable, realistic journey between the two.

4. Some of the more immediately obvious things that seem like fanservice for its own sake, like Kylo Ren (the Darth Vader looking guy in the mask) are done like that for the sake of subverting them. His Vader-style look is a deliberate from of misdirection, and used to good effect in the story. I don't wanna get too specific, but he really is not Vader at all.

5. There is considerably less CGI than in the prequel films, and what CGI is there is well done. The film is stuffed to the brim with practical effects, such as many aliens being obviously people in costumes, BB-8 (the droid) being entirely non-CGI, etc. The film could definitely have been done with less CGI still, but it's not obscenely overindulgent with it like the prequels were.

All in all, it's certainly not as good as the originals, but also not guilty of most of the sins of the prequels. It's obvious they attempted to make something good and not a lazy cash-in. The end result is something that is deeply flawed and derivative from a plot perspective, but has heart. I attribute this almost entirely to the fact that the dialogue and characters were good. Those are always what makes or breaks a movie, and this one got that right. If you can only see plot and not characters, you'll hate it, but if you can see the whole thing for what it is, it's pretty decent.

CGI over substance
It has both.

bad acting
The acting is mostly pretty good. The only person I thought was not was Carrie Fisher, which is strange because she was good in the originals.

lack of originality
Intentionally subverted, which should be obvious to anyone who saw and understood the film

leftist propaganda
Not remotely. I was keeping an eye out for this throughout the entire movie, and could not find a hint of it. Unless you're suggesting that simply having the lead be female is propaganda, which is utterly ridiculous.

plot holes (there are dozens in this film)
I can't argue with this. The plot was the weakest part of this film.

bad script
I disagree with this more than anything else in your post, for the reasons I stated above. Good characters, good inter-character dynamics, and good dialogue. These are the hallmarks of a good script.

fan service
Intentionally subverted, which should be obvious to anyone who saw and understood the film.


I will reiterate this, because it needs reiterating. I do not think this is a perfect film. I think it's ridiculous that anyone gave it 10/10. But as I don't see things in extremes, I also don't think "not perfect" is the same as "terrible." I'd give it a solid 7/10. There is room for improvement, but it was good enough that I enjoyed it.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-30 16:08:35 by Covarr »

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #58 on: 2015-12-22 06:25:05 »
I mean casting a black person simply because it ticks a box, and having a female protagonist who is wonder woman simply to show us how "equal" (or in this case, better)  women are to men.  From what I hear, she fixes Han Solo's ship despite him knowing it back to front (and her knowing nothing) and also kicks the arse of someone experienced in the Force with little or no training whatsoever. It's been commended by a lot of critics for its "feminist" touch.  I call casting people because of gender or colour blatant progressive liberal agenda (Same thing happened with Deep Space Nine and Voyager).  Having a woman kicking arse and fixing things with no build up at all is leftism at its worst in films. I am more than happy with a true strong female protagonist done correctly (Ripley from Alien and Aliens, or the resistance leader on Mars in Babylon 5. In fact - Ivanova in B5 too), but not this sort of garbage (Kira in Deep Space Nine).  It reminds me of all modern day soaps - whenever men and women compete at something, women always win.  It's become a tired cliche and films like this deliberately peddle it.  And, of course, they want to tick a box and appeal to women for the sheer sake of it.  Never mind if the situation is absurd or the believability is zero.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 06:38:15 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #59 on: 2015-12-22 06:36:07 »
I mean casting a black person simply because it ticks a box
The black person wasn't to tick a box. He was right for the role. Having seen it, I wouldn't cast anyone else. Did you say the same about Lando? Do you say the same whenever a black person is cast in anything? He was a good actor, and it's downright insulting to J.J. Abrams to assume he was cast just for that (and also doesn't make sense, considering Abrams showed with the casting of Into Darkness that he doesn't give a rip about race when casting.

and having a female protagonist who is wonder woman simply to show us how "equal" (or in this case, better)  women are to men.
I never got the impression that's why they did that. They had a female protagonist because she and the black guy have a Han/Leia dynamic. Otherwise it would've been two guys, and if they tried to do that there'd be accusations of them doing it just to show a gay couple.

From what I hear, she fixes Han Solo's ship despite him knowing it back to front (and her knowing nothing)
This is not remotely the case. mild spoilers. The ship had been stolen from Han and left on her home world for quite some time. It is heavily implied that she'd had a chance to take a look at it over the years, and she makes two repairs throughout the film. The first before he even appears, and the second is to some modifications that were added years after the ship was stolen from him and he wouldn't have had any way of knowing about. It's not remotely suggested that she's better with ships than him, or even better with this ship, just that she was in the right place at the right time and he wasn't.

and also kicks the arse of someone experienced in the Force with little or no training whatsoever.
This is the only one of these that is a real problem, and I will not argue with it. But even so, I have every reason to believe it would've been exactly the same problem with a male lead, because it was rooted in the film's pacing problems.

Your other complaints come across as totally uninformed, and just make it obvious you haven't seen the film and are speaking on hearsay. It is exceedingly evident to me, who actually saw the film, that the vast majority of your opinions on it are based on half-truths and misinformation. Look, if you don't wanna see it, don't see it. You were absolutely right to say earlier in the thread that it would be dumb to see a movie you think you won't like. But if you don't see it, stop complaining about it, because most of your complaints are based on a heavily skewed version of the film that is totally different from the movie they actually made. Frankly, you come across like you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 06:40:35 by Covarr »

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #60 on: 2015-12-22 06:39:19 »
Considering there are five reviews (at least five) on IMDB heavily criticizing the film for the reasons I have given (and a lot of critics praising the "feminist" approach), I can't agree with that. They saw the film.  So are they wrong too?

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #61 on: 2015-12-22 06:43:53 »
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/reviews?filter=hate

In fact, there's one right there recommended by hundreds.
Quote

9. Clear liberal Hollywood feminist propaganda, I don't mind a strong female lead at all! But did they have to make her a completely unrealistic super woman!? She learns she has force powers, figures out how to use said force powers by her self in what could have only been a couple days at most and beats the hell out of the multi year trained bad guy apprentice!!!

So, people do agree with me.  People who have seen it.

One review is entitled: Feminist garbage!! (126 out of 232 people found the following review useful)

Here's the thing.  You've admitted that these things do happen - so I am wondering how me watching it happen is going to change my view?
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 06:49:41 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #62 on: 2015-12-22 07:00:21 »
There are also at least five (closer to five hundred) reviews that say the film is perfect, and those are also wrong. If people saying it makes it true, then wikiality is reality, and by that very definition the film is an 8.7/10 (which, keep in mind, is higher than I gave it) because IMDB said so. IMDB user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt because the vast majority of IMDB users see the world in black and white. Either something is perfect or terrible, nothing in between.

In actual reality, one-star and ten-star reviews can almost always be discarded, because people decided the score they were going to give and only watched the film to build a case. Ten-star reviewers knew they were going to give a ten-star review before they saw it, and one-star reviewers knew they were going to give a one-star review before they saw it. It's the 3-7 star reviewers who actually have a hint of an idea what they're talking about, but on IMDB they rarely do.

I'm one of the most conservative people I know. I voted for Romney, I voted for McCain, and I get as annoyed as anyone when I see something that smells like propaganda. But despite specifically looking for it, I didn't see it, because though I was searching for it, I wasn't going in with the hopes of finding it. I did my best to go into the film without any bias. I know absolute zero bias is impossible, but I got as close as I could. I was ready to find it great, terrible, okay, mediocre, or anywhere in between.

It's really easy to hate something when you form your opinions in advance, agree with reviews that agree with your preconceived notions, and then disregard anyone that disagrees with you as fanboys, and it definitely seems like that's exactly what you've done here. You decided (and proclaimed) how you felt about it when it was first announced, before even the teaser was shown, and without even a first-hand frame of reference, judged the reliability of reviews entirely based on how well they aligned with what you'd already decided to feel about it. That's the textbook definition of confirmation bias.

All that having been said, I don't think you watching it will change your view. But even if I concede the leftism thing, a good two-thirds of what you have said about the film has been measurably wrong. I'm just asking you either to inform yourself properly before you speak (by seeing the movie) or not to speak. Substantiating an opinion only based on the views of one group is herd mentality, whether you're on the 10/10 herd or the 1/10 herd, and it's better not to have an opinion at all
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 07:02:31 by Covarr »

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #63 on: 2015-12-22 07:24:21 »
I made my opinion based on what I know for a fact is in that movie. It is there and I can make an opinion on it. You may have a point if this was only one or two people making the complaint - but it isn't.  It's very common. An awful lot of people are calling the movie out on it (way too many for this to not be a problem) - and I am one of them - watch or no watch.

I suppose next time I should just pretend I've seen it and structure a response on it - that way I'd have saved us all this unnecessary back and forth.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 07:31:16 by DLPB »

olearyf2525

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #64 on: 2015-12-22 07:56:05 »
“We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmy’s a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest ****ing room in the history of time. It’s just unbelievably white. And I just thought, we’re casting this show and we have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not cast the show with actors of colour?” JJ Abrams

Covarr

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #65 on: 2015-12-22 08:00:16 »


Quote from: DLPB

I suppose next time I should just pretend I've seen it and structure a response on it - that way I'd have saved us all this unnecessary back and forth.
That would just make you poorly informed and a liar, and based on the number of facts you got explicitly wrong about the film, such a lie would become immediately obvious. I suppose that's a good move if you're trying to lose people's respect.

All you're doing here is pooping in the punch bowl. Is it not enough not to enjoy it, you have to ruin it for everyone else who might have enjoyed it too? Angry, poorly informed complaints won't stop anybody from seeing the film, they won't prevent more from being made. Literally the only thing your ranting could possibly achieve is to make people less happy, and I sincerely hope that's not your intent. Heck, the constant obsession with things you don't like can't possibly make you feel better either. At best, you'll share mutual dislike of something with someone else, but there's no joy in that, only salt.

As I said, you're well within your rights not to see it, or even to watch it and not to like it, but if you're not going to see it, then say you're not going to see it and move on like a normal, decent person instead of maintaining an unnecessary and unproductive hostility.

-Ric-

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #66 on: 2015-12-22 13:29:02 »
That would just make you poorly informed and a liar, and based on the number of facts you got explicitly wrong about the film, such a lie would become immediately obvious. I suppose that's a good move if you're trying to lose people's respect.

All you're doing here is pooping in the punch bowl. Is it not enough not to enjoy it, you have to ruin it for everyone else who might have enjoyed it too? Angry, poorly informed complaints won't stop anybody from seeing the film, they won't prevent more from being made. Literally the only thing your ranting could possibly achieve is to make people less happy, and I sincerely hope that's not your intent. Heck, the constant obsession with things you don't like can't possibly make you feel better either. At best, you'll share mutual dislike of something with someone else, but there's no joy in that, only salt.

As I said, you're well within your rights not to see it, or even to watch it and not to like it, but if you're not going to see it, then say you're not going to see it and move on like a normal, decent person instead of maintaining an unnecessary and unproductive hostility.

You are 100% right in everything you wrote, however, it's a battle you cannot and will not win.
"Common sense is not so common."

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #67 on: 2015-12-22 15:25:33 »
@covarr Considering I am largely repeating what other people are saying (because I agree with them) about things that are in the movie, the "lie" would not be immediately obvious at all.  There are dozens of reviews out there saying exactly what I am and they are from people who have watched the film.  You are not making any sense, because to criticize my view as meaningless means all the other people who watched it and are saying the exact same thing are equally invalidated. Me watching it won't change that. And we're going around in circles, so I am stopping here. I will never watch the film anyway, so I'm gonna stay happy and keep my money.

“We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmy’s a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest ****ing room in the history of time. It’s just unbelievably white. And I just thought, we’re casting this show and we have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not cast the show with actors of colour?” JJ Abrams

Thanks for that.  It's making more sense now. I suppose someone with such an insane and twisted outlook on life is bound to let that creep into a film he/she  makes. That's a shocking quote, tbh. And imagine someone with that twisted (and sounds racist to me too) opinion being allowed near a film of this scope.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 15:46:13 by DLPB »

olearyf2525

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #68 on: 2015-12-22 18:03:34 »
Thanks for that.  It's making more sense now. I suppose someone with such an insane and twisted outlook on life is bound to let that creep into a film he/she  makes. That's a shocking quote, tbh. And imagine someone with that twisted (and sounds racist to me too) opinion being allowed near a film of this scope.

Yup, it's not so much what you know as who you know and what you're willing to do to get ahead and fern others over. That's why it's called Hollyweird and uses up and spits out talented people and promotes untalented people.

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #69 on: 2015-12-22 18:17:02 »
I wonder if a film maker said the same thing about black people whether he'd still be directing a "blockbuster".  Not a chance. But it's ok to be racist against white people, you see. I didn't know Jar Jar Abrams views or leanings until you posted that and I went researching.  But, yes, he's a total gone-in-the-head leftist, so no surprises there.  This kind of crap is widespread too.  Leftist film makers and actors are routinely promoted over those with a Right inclination.  This guy stands out to me (he explains how the situation is an epidemic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BaGWg7Lh74

"I lost so many friends on a private level."

I don't agree with everything he says, but he's spot on about Hollywood being a thought police club.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tv-executives-admit-taped-interviews-193116

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5A8VHTyMzg

Quote
“Most of them didn’t Google me. If they had, they would have realized where I am politically,” he said. “I played on their stereotypes. When I showed up for the interviews, I wore my Harvard Law baseball cap — my name is Ben Shapiro and I attended Harvard, so there’s a 98.7 percent chance I’m a liberal. Except I happen not to be.”

Shapiro is a classic.  I love that guy :)
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 18:49:23 by DLPB »

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #70 on: 2015-12-22 21:00:56 »
It was a good movie, can confirm.

I think DLPB has spent more time trolling this movie that he's not seen than the time it would have costed his life in actually seeing it.

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #71 on: 2015-12-22 21:06:43 »
It was a good movie, can confirm.

I think DLPB has spent more time trolling this movie that he's not seen than the time it would have costed his life in actually seeing it.

Stating it's a good movie with no substance isn't really any type of confirmation. And your argument to the person, rather than debating the flaws I listed, is even less encouraging.

Additionally, if I had watched it I'd be a lot angrier because I'd be out of pocket and part of this corporate scam (my opinion).  So, all things considered I am happier to piss against the wind.
« Last Edit: 2015-12-22 21:30:30 by DLPB »

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #72 on: 2015-12-22 21:51:24 »
Well aren't you as positive as the arse end of a battery.

While I did enjoy it, I do see a fair amount of the flaws, Rey in the 2nd half, not enough explanation about Kylo's motivations, who the hell Snoke is etc, hopefully Episode VIII explains some of it.

DLPB

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #73 on: 2015-12-22 22:03:23 »
Yes, my quest to find a film I am happy with continues.  Luckily, Season 6 of Game of Thrones is on its way and I'm almost sure to like that :)

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Re: Star Wars Episode 7: Ticking All The Wrong Boxes
« Reply #74 on: 2015-12-22 22:19:10 »
This thread has now evolved into personal attacks and disrespect. From this point, any personal attack will result in a +20 warning level, regardless of what happened previously in this thread. This thread will also be locked. I am confident you can keep a civilized discussion in here, please don't prove me wrong. ~Vgr