Author Topic: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap  (Read 9172 times)

Covarr

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hian

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #1 on: 2015-09-29 05:26:25 »
It looks like strawberries. Most long-time users of RPG maker are better at mapping than that. And, you can find a lot of indie graphic designers etc. who could make better tiles and sprites like that for a relatively affordable price.

SE, shame on you for releasing strawberries like this.

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #2 on: 2015-09-29 09:38:00 »
I refuse to call it "FF5 on Steam".

Should be "FF5 on Android"! Anyways... I don't see the problem with all this. Guy's looking too much into little things? I played the entire game (the superior version on Android), and it was great enough it got 1st place in my favorites list with FF7. Suddenly when that the game showed up on Steam, of all the places one could bend over to, its now looking that bad? Why didn't he complain about it when it was on Android.

SE better stay this way, especially on Android. I don't even get the fuss over the art style.

NFITC1

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #3 on: 2015-09-29 12:47:15 »
It's an upscaled port of the mobile edition. Of course it's going to be trash at higher res. If you don't zoom in on that image it's not quite so obviously bad.

Covarr

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #4 on: 2015-09-29 13:48:29 »
A lot of the issues are pretty minor, but I think the seams between tiles are utterly unacceptable, and I thought this about the Android version as well. It's not hard to make your background art tile correctly; dozens if not hundreds of other devs manage to do it on a regular basis.

I might buy this game when I get my next paycheck tomorrow and see about replacing the graphics with art from the SNES version. I have no clue how difficult this will be, but it's worth looking into, anyway.

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #5 on: 2015-09-29 15:25:07 »
A lot of the issues are pretty minor, but I think the seams between tiles are utterly unacceptable, and I thought this about the Android version as well. It's not hard to make your background art tile correctly; dozens if not hundreds of other devs manage to do it on a regular basis.

I might buy this game when I get my next paycheck tomorrow and see about replacing the graphics with art from the SNES version. I have no clue how difficult this will be, but it's worth looking into, anyway.

Tried looking to do the replacement (if only as a proof of concept) as a mod for FFVI Android. The issue here is that I can't re-scale Terra SNES properly to Terra Android, and thus I can't seem to replace it properly. The game (V) is perfectly perfect with the graphics intact, and I didn't see the seems on my Android runs either. I suggest the Android version for that matter. No, you won't miss anything on Android, its the same game.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #6 on: 2015-09-29 17:16:07 »
I'm with Covarr on this one. Pretty much everything is fine except those hideous tile seems. We have those in some of the FF7 battle fields and they make me cringe.

MetaLink

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #7 on: 2015-09-29 18:18:21 »
Playing the game on 640x480 has the same problems as 1080p

Someone has already extracted and created a converter for the sprites,(http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ff-modding/discussions/1/517142892058143800/) problem is that there are about 3000 character sprites to replace

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #8 on: 2015-09-30 00:04:10 »
Playing the game on 640x480 has the same problems as 1080p

Someone has already extracted and created a converter for the sprites,(http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ff-modding/discussions/1/517142892058143800/) problem is that there are about 3000 character sprites to replace

3000 character sprites? Ouch. That seems too much to change an already fine character art. Plus, wouldn't replacing the sprites with SNES ones create... a really big and noticeable visual clash as opposed to the official art?

hian

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #9 on: 2015-09-30 01:33:53 »
I refuse to call it "FF5 on Steam".

Should be "FF5 on Android"! Anyways... I don't see the problem with all this. Guy's looking too much into little things? I played the entire game (the superior version on Android), and it was great enough it got 1st place in my favorites list with FF7. Suddenly when that the game showed up on Steam, of all the places one could bend over to, its now looking that bad? Why didn't he complain about it when it was on Android.

SE better stay this way, especially on Android. I don't even get the fuss over the art style.

Personally, I'd say this looks horrible across the board. After the remakes of 3 and 4, I'd expect a high-quality 3D remake, not what looks like RPGmaker trash made by people who just started out with 2D modelling. Seriously, this looks so bad I'd rather play the original.

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #10 on: 2015-09-30 05:14:42 »
Personally, I'd say this looks horrible across the board. After the remakes of 3 and 4, I'd expect a high-quality 3D remake, not what looks like RPGmaker trash made by people who just started out with 2D modelling. Seriously, this looks so bad I'd rather play the original.

And the original looks... worse? As in the details aren't made clear out and its mostly pixelated? Not that I'm trashing the 16-bit pixel art style, I love pixels myself. But there is a big difference between art that feels more consistent with the box art of the original game and working and RPG maker trash, and this is far from a RPG maker trash, oh by the way, if the FF Wikia is correct on that one, the guy who made the sprites you're desperate to replace is the very same guy who made the originals, at least for FFVI, and he's suddenly been demoted to someone who just started 2D modelling? If FFV or FFVI were to be released a bit later, I believe this art style would've been the norm. You're lucky the game had a visual refresh and extras; FF7 and FF8 had none. The iOS port of FF7 is also not to par with the port of VI. As someone who liked the extras of VI, I really don't know how to feel about getting original FF7 and FF8 on Android; and I'd play them again.

Nah, really, what's so bad about it that it makes you want the originals more? Even if it isn't the best, it certainly is better and more expressive than the original.
« Last Edit: 2015-09-30 05:17:23 by Pooka »

hian

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #11 on: 2015-09-30 07:51:52 »
And the original looks... worse?

Not really. The style of the original works well with the low resolution of the system it was running on - Now, it just looks empty and uninspiring.

As in the details aren't made clear out and its mostly pixelated? 

Who cares? Heard about impressionism? Art isn't judged by how well you can make out details.
The problem with up-scaling an old game like this is that there were very little in terms of details due to the low resolution, so if all you do when you up-scale/remake it is essentially up the resolution, or make high-res remodels of the original textures, everything ends up looking empty, bland and uninspiring.


Not that I'm trashing the 16-bit pixel art style, I love pixels myself. But there is a big difference between art that feels more consistent with the box art of the original game and working and RPG maker trash, and this is far from a RPG maker trash, oh by the way, if the FF Wikia is correct on that one, the guy who made the sprites you're desperate to replace is the very same guy who made the originals, at least for FFVI, and he's suddenly been demoted to someone who just started 2D modelling?

As a person who's used RPG-maker since I was a kid, still do at times, and am a part of a booming indie-development community I can tell you that these sprites and tiles are actually worse than most of what is done among the people in the community who make their own resources.

If this was the guy who made the original sprites and tiles, that's irrelevant. It just means he hasn't progressed as a sprite-artist, or was given really strawberriesty directions by the producer. I'm not "denoting" him whatever that's supposed to mean - I am simply commenting on his work on this title - which was abysmal - and that's bad considering whomever did that work probably got better payed than a lot of indie-artists I know who'd have done a better job if they had the chance. Waste of money and time that is.

If FFV or FFVI were to be released a bit later, I believe this art style would've been the norm. You're lucky the game had a visual refresh and extras; FF7 and FF8 had none. The iOS port of FF7 is also not to par with the port of VI. As someone who liked the extras of VI, I really don't know how to feel about getting original FF7 and FF8 on Android; and I'd play them again.

Red-herring. Non of that is relevant to my complaint. Whatever might be the case about the other titles, this is still strawberries.
I was never one of the people who asked for or necessarily felt a need for remakes/remasters to begin with. If non of the titles got
any new touches what so ever, I'd be fine with that, because guess what? I enjoyed them, and still enjoy them as is.

Nah, really, what's so bad about it that it makes you want the originals more? Even if it isn't the best, it certainly is better and more expressive than the original.

That's your view of it. To me, it makes my eyes bleed, and so I won't buy it, or play it. What makes me "want" the original more is that the original looks just fine for its age - the remake doesn't. It looks horrible, especially granted the other better remakes SE have already released. It's lazy and sub-par.
« Last Edit: 2015-09-30 07:54:17 by hian »

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #12 on: 2015-09-30 18:29:57 »
Not really. The style of the original works well with the low resolution of the system it was running on - Now, it just looks empty and uninspiring.

Exactly. Trying to rescale it for a today-ish resolution probably isn't an ideal solution either. Trying to eat the 'strawberries' is a much better idea. Just eat them. They're sweet. Not sure when did strawberries become bad.

Who cares? Heard about impressionism? Art isn't judged by how well you can make out details.
The problem with up-scaling an old game like this is that there were very little in terms of details due to the low resolution, so if all you do when you up-scale/remake it is essentially up the resolution, or make high-res remodels of the original textures, everything ends up looking empty, bland and uninspiring.

No, and probably don't need. As long as the details can tell me vaguely what is it that I'm looking at, that surely is better than a series of squished pixels that aren't helping in telling me whether that's wearing an armor or a dress. Yes, that's right.


As a person who's used RPG-maker since I was a kid, still do at times, and am a part of a booming indie-development community I can tell you that these sprites and tiles are actually worse than most of what is done among the people in the community who make their own resources.

Okay, but again, I don't understand. Why are we comparing the sprites to that of RPG Maker's? Why aren't we, you know, just look at them without bringing RPG Maker into the talk? Worse than RPG Maker quality sprites or not, they're still quite distinguishable sprites yet also leaving room for you to imagine them in various situations.

If this was the guy who made the original sprites and tiles, that's irrelevant. It just means he hasn't progressed as a sprite-artist, or was given really strawberriesty directions by the producer. I'm not "denoting" him whatever that's supposed to mean - I am simply commenting on his work on this title - which was abysmal - and that's bad considering whomever did that work probably got better payed than a lot of indie-artists I know who'd have done a better job if they had the chance. Waste of money and time that is.

Its "demoting" not "denoting". In admin speak, it means drop a mod's status to a member for example. Just because his art is looking like strawberries to you, doesn't mean he didn't advance. Compare the sprites of the original game and the remake side by side. I bet you're able to tell the characters better from the remade sprites than the original sprites, yet also leaving you the desired room to imagine them beyond the game. Again, just because his art "isn't better" to a bunch of random indie artists, doesn't mean his artwork sucks. The artwork thing goes to full effect when you compare Terra's and Kefka's sprites. Especially Kefka's.

Red-herring. Non of that is relevant to my complaint. Whatever might be the case about the other titles, this is still strawberries.
I was never one of the people who asked for or necessarily felt a need for remakes/remasters to begin with. If non of the titles got
any new touches what so ever, I'd be fine with that, because guess what? I enjoyed them, and still enjoy them as is.

So do I. I enjoy what I enjoy based on gameplay, graphics is a second matter here. However, as evident from FF7's re-releases, people are wanting a new thing out of it instead of the same old game, and they'd badmouth the heck outta SE for not doing that. That's to say that you and I are just a minority. That still doesn't change that the sprites are better than the original ones.

That's your view of it. To me, it makes my eyes bleed, and so I won't buy it, or play it. What makes me "want" the original more is that the original looks just fine for its age - the remake doesn't. It looks horrible, especially granted the other better remakes SE have already released. It's lazy and sub-par.

Good for you. However, with the remake, I get controls that are based all around the touchscreen; so faster and more efficient inputs. With the official GBA translation, there is little room to Woolseyism (while there is no proof the original translator for the PSX version is Woolsey that I could find, it still sounds like something. Salsa anyone?). The built-in music player after the game's end is also a worthy addition, not to mention that the soundtrack is of untampered SNES quality; which is to say great. And the bonus dungeons and the likes, etc. Even if I supposed the original sprites were suddenly better, sacrificing the sprites for these other features is a deal with me. Just because random RPGM spriters are better, doesn't mean the sprites are bad. I thought that when comparing an updated revision to an outdated revision of anything, we test them against each other; not against other things in the same category but otherwise unrelated.

hian

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #13 on: 2015-10-01 12:34:19 »
Exactly. Trying to rescale it for a today-ish resolution probably isn't an ideal solution either. Trying to eat the 'strawberries' is a much better idea. Just eat them. They're sweet. Not sure when did strawberries become bad.

You do know that strawberries is this forums auto-correct for the word "s h i t"?
I think I'll avoid eating that thank you very much.

No, and probably don't need. As long as the details can tell me vaguely what is it that I'm looking at, that surely is better than a series of squished pixels that aren't helping in telling me whether that's wearing an armor or a dress. Yes, that's right.

Maybe you should check your eye-sight then? I had no trouble making out what things were supposed to be in the original game.

Okay, but again, I don't understand. Why are we comparing the sprites to that of RPG Maker's? Why aren't we, you know, just look at them without bringing RPG Maker into the talk? Worse than RPG Maker quality sprites or not, they're still quite distinguishable sprites yet also leaving room for you to imagine them in various situations.

Because we live in 2015 and were talking about a game made by a major AAA game development and publishing company, which means that it's reasonable to expect a certain level of quality from their products, and that it's ah-okay to criticize them for not making products on par with those reasonable expectations.

If low-/mid-tier sprite artists working for a lick and nothing can make better 2D sprites and tiles than people working for SE at full pay, then that begs the question why that is. The answer is most likely either "laziness" or "ineptitude", and I am not going to enable or support that by paying for it.

Its "demoting" not "denoting".

Spelling mistake. Point still stands - I have no idea what that is supposed to mean in this context. I am not in a position to demote anyone, and the criticism would be true regardless of whether or not you think I shouldn't because it's a person who's been working in the industry for a long period of time. In fact the opposite is true - if this is the best we can expect from a long-timer in the industry, that is extremely tragic and even more worthy of criticism.

Just because his art is looking like strawberries to you, doesn't mean he didn't advance. Compare the sprites of the original game and the remake side by side. I bet you're able to tell the characters better from the remade sprites than the original sprites, yet also leaving you the desired room to imagine them beyond the game. Again, just because his art "isn't better" to a bunch of random indie artists, doesn't mean his artwork sucks. The artwork thing goes to full effect when you compare Terra's and Kefka's sprites. Especially Kefka's.

Firstly, I did qualify my sentiment by stating that it wasn't necessarily his fault as he could have received bad directions by the producers, or worked under other limiting conditions, so you selectively latching unto that point is completely inane.

Secondly, it all depends on what you mean by advancing. Whatever limitations or lack of quality present in his original original sprites, they were excused by the hardware limitations of the time. Now, they are not. Considering the advances in technology, the time between this release and the original, and the level of even amateur sprite artists in the larger gaming community these days, it is not unreasonable to expect more from him, and him making what he made is either indicative of laziness, incompetence or company idiocy. Barring the last, I'd say it's a fair characterization to say he hasn't advanced much as a sprite-artist.

So do I. I enjoy what I enjoy based on gameplay, graphics is a second matter here.

Of course graphics come in second (on a general basis). However, the game-play is largely the same no? Also, it's not like this game exists in a vacuum. If it makes me eyes bleed, which it does (of course figuratively speaking), then why should I play it? Does it offer anything that makes it so good that other "prettier" games can't out-compete it, especially considering I've already gotten the story from the original?

However, as evident from FF7's re-releases, people are wanting a new thing out of it instead of the same old game, and they'd badmouth the heck outta SE for not doing that. That's to say that you and I are just a minority. That still doesn't change that the sprites are better than the original ones.

So what? How does this have any bearing on the argument? I am not making an argument for why this game shouldn't be or why other people shouldn't play it - I am simply making the argument that it's graphically speaking sub-par and disappointing considering that it's made by SE - which it is.

Why are you harping on about this?

Good for you. However, with the remake, I get controls that are based all around the touchscreen; so faster and more efficient inputs. With the official GBA translation, there is little room to Woolseyism (while there is no proof the original translator for the PSX version is Woolsey that I could find, it still sounds like something. Salsa anyone?). The built-in music player after the game's end is also a worthy addition, not to mention that the soundtrack is of untampered SNES quality; which is to say great. And the bonus dungeons and the likes, etc. Even if I supposed the original sprites were suddenly better, sacrificing the sprites for these other features is a deal with me.

Good for you then. Personally, I hate touch-screen controls with a passion and avoid them like the plague. It's the primary reason why my phone is an Xperia Play.

I don't need built-in music players, because when I listen to music, I listen to music on the MP3 player function on my phone, and when I play games I play games. Listening to music in a separate player within a game has always seemed like a completely redundant and trite feature to my mind.

Bonus content is a plus though - but then again, I'm not really a completionist and play FF games largely for the story, so I'm not going to buy a game for any of those features if looking at the game makes me want to strangle puppies.

Just because random RPGM spriters are better, doesn't mean the sprites are bad.

Yes it does - because guess what, "good" and "bad" as terms relating to quality are relative in relation to competing products.
If non-professionals make better sprites than you on a hobby basis for non-commercial games then your sprites are bad by any meaningful sense of that word. If you don't think so, I double-dare you to provide a functional definition and use of those terms apart from that. If you can't then you really have no leg to stand on it relation to calling this game either good nor bad.

I thought that when comparing an updated revision to an outdated revision of anything, we test them against each other; not against other things in the same category but otherwise unrelated.

Then you'd be wrong. When I evaluate the quality of a game, I evaluate it against games in general - just like when the FF7 remake comes out I'll evaluate how good it is in relation to the 2 decades of other RPGs that have come out in the meantime.
It does not get a free pass for being just as good, or a bit better than the original, if everyone else in the industry, even people on the outside have left it behind in the dust with a new generation of products.

SE themselves have already remade several other FFs in full 3D with lots of added content, remastered music etc. so to make something like this, which isn't even on par with what a team of dedicated hobby-term devs and designers could have made on the most recent rpg-maker software is extremely underwhelming and retrograde.

But hey, you're welcome to hold your lowered expectations and standards. I however, am not going to wast money on something like this and send the message to SE that it's just fine for them to rehash old material with minimal effort.

Pooka

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #14 on: 2015-10-01 17:06:17 »
You do know that strawberries is this forums auto-correct for the word "s h i t"?
I think I'll avoid eating that thank you very much.

No. Thank you for the tip though. Just eat strawberries.

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Maybe you should check your eye-sight then? I had no trouble making out what things were supposed to be in the original game.

By 'checking your eye-sight' you mean squeezing the eye? Alright.

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Because we live in 2015 and were talking about a game made by a major AAA game development and publishing company, which means that it's reasonable to expect a certain level of quality from their products, and that it's ah-okay to criticize them for not making products on par with those reasonable expectations.

These reasonable expectations are for an updated release of a classic to not go with a certain art style, even if it is inherently better than the original game?

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If low-/mid-tier sprite artists working for a lick and nothing can make better 2D sprites and tiles than people working for SE at full pay, then that begs the question why that is. The answer is most likely either "laziness" or "ineptitude", and I am not going to enable or support that by paying for it.

Again, why should I care about comparing SE spriters to random unnamed indie spriters? You compare the 'rerelease' to the 'original', everything has been that way. You don't compare the 'rerelease' with 'another game'. When comparing the 'rerelease' to the 'original' in terms of sprites, the sprites are certainly better. Just because 'another game' has better sprites, doesn't mean there was laziness or ineptitude in the equation.

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Spelling mistake. Point still stands - I have no idea what that is supposed to mean in this context. I am not in a position to demote anyone, and the criticism would be true regardless of whether or not you think I shouldn't because it's a person who's been working in the industry for a long period of time. In fact the opposite is true - if this is the best we can expect from a long-timer in the industry, that is extremely tragic and even more worthy of criticism.

Fine. Its extremely tragic to YOU. Not to me though. Again, you're basing your whole criticism on an art style. Art style wise, its great, and much better than the original. Where is the 'tragic' in that, I don't know.

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Firstly, I did qualify my sentiment by stating that it wasn't necessarily his fault as he could have received bad directions by the producers, or worked under other limiting conditions, so you selectively latching unto that point is completely inane.

I'm not sure what kind of bad direction is there to be seen in the sprites. We're looking at sprites that actually manage to both balance telling the sprite's features and leaving imagination room open. They didn't kill the possibilities of imagination by making the sprite more detailed, and they didn't decrease the features by putting less details.

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Secondly, it all depends on what you mean by advancing. Whatever limitations or lack of quality present in his original original sprites, they were excused by the hardware limitations of the time. Now, they are not. Considering the advances in technology, the time between this release and the original, and the level of even amateur sprite artists in the larger gaming community these days, it is not unreasonable to expect more from him, and him making what he made is either indicative of laziness, incompetence or company idiocy. Barring the last, I'd say it's a fair characterization to say he hasn't advanced much as a sprite-artist.

Really? So just because the sprites turned out to be these, he's either lazy, in-competitive, or the company is idiotic? Sure. I'm an idiot if for example, I prefer my art to look cartoonish over realistic. I'm lazy because I think a noir artstyle is more fitting. I'm incompetent because my artstyle is cutesy looking. Your problem here is not that the art style itself is not good, your problem is that you're comparing random sprites from other unrelated individuals to a set of sprites chosen for the re-release of a classic.

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off course graphics come in second (on a general basis). However, the game-play is largely the same no? Also, it's not like this game exists in a vacuum. If it makes me eyes bleed, which it does (off course figuratively speaking), then why should I play it? Does it offer anything that makes it so good that other "prettier" games can't out-compete it, especially considering I've already gotten the story from the original?

There is a better translation, updated controls for the touchscreen, it has soundtrack, the works. Other than that you're right, the gameplay is the same. However, the extra features, including that its updated over the old one with features I'm expecting of SE ports, is why I love them. This is why FF7's port for iOS isn't clicking with me, having no updated control scheme for battles and world map at all.

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So what? How does this have any bearing on the argument? I am not making an argument for why this game shouldn't be or why other people shouldn't play it - I am simply making the argument that it's graphically speaking sub-par and disappointing considering that it's made by SE - which it is.

If its graphically subpar to other games, not my problem, even if it probably isn't. What matters is that it's graphically better compared to the original.

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Why are you harping on about this?

Because simply reporting the game and putting on a controller overlay for another platform doesn't click with people anymore. This is why rereleases like this are made.

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Good for you then. Personally, I hate touch-screen controls with a passion and avoid them like the plague. It's the primary reason why my phone is an Xperia Play.

I have an Archos Gamepad 2 as well, which is something like an Xperia Play. However, that doesn't mean I hate the touchscreen. Generally, SE makes classics work even greater with the touchscreen. Instead of cycling through the characters with the Square/X? button in one direction, I can just tap a character with a full ATB bar and issue a command. FF6's touchscreen implementation is even better too.

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I don't need built-in music players, because when I listen to music, I listen to music on the MP3 player function on my phone, and when I play games I play games. Listening to music in a separate player within a game has always seemed like a completely redundant and trite feature to my mind.

But to others, it feels like a nice extra. Having "Battle at the Big Bridge" inside the game pretty much playable anytime I want after I beat the final boss is something I like about it.

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Bonus content is a plus though - but then again, I'm not really a completionist and play FF games largely for the story, so I'm not going to buy a game for any of those features if looking at the game makes me want to strangle puppies.

To me, I still occasionally pop up into the Sealed Temple and try owning me some monsters using my relatively overpowered party (all jobs mastered + level 65+), if I wasn't replaying the game at the time.

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Yes it does - because guess what, "good" and "bad" as terms relating to quality are relative in relation to competing products.
If non-professionals make better sprites than you on a hobby basis for non-commercial games then your sprites are bad by any meaningful sense of that word. If you don't think so, I double-dare you to provide a functional definition and use of those terms apart from that. If you can't then you really have no leg to stand on it relation to calling this game either good nor bad.

And again, this is a re-release of a classic game with updated graphics. The graphics of the re-release are better looking than the classic game, therefore the sprites are 'good'. I don't care about indies, aliens, espers, angels, or demons making better sprites than the ones SE made overall, say what you will. What matters is that the sprites are relatively better to the original product. And, even the 'indies' you like to talk about aren't even competing to "FINAL FANTASY V," as that's a game that's been sold since the SNES days in Japan and PSX everywhere else. This re-release is just an extension to that, as is with the other SE ports.

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Then you'd be wrong. When I evaluate the quality of a game, I evaluate it against games in general - just like when the FF7 remake comes out I'll evaluate how good it is in relation to the 2 decades of other RPGs that have come out in the meantime.

It does not get a free pass for being just as good, or a bit better than the original, if everyone else in the industry, even people on the outside have left it behind in the dust with a new generation of products.

I don't approve of comparing an outdated title with outdated standards versus new titles with new standards. You actually want to really evaluate the quality of a 're-release', you'll evaluate it against the old original, as it is then you're comparing the game right by comparing outdated standards in a rerelease with outdated standards in a classic. These re-releases are not meant to compete against the new RPGs of today with whatever advances they brought. Their selling point is more than likely nostalgia.

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SE themselves have already remade several other FFs in full 3D with lots of added content, remastered music etc. so to make something like this, which isn't even on par with what a team of dedicated hobby-term devs and designers could have made on the most recent rpg-maker software is extremely underwhelming and retrograde.

I'm not interested in 3D. Whether the game is 2D or 3D is not of any matter to me. Besides that, they're nearly on the same footing as FF5 and FF6 Android with the extras, only with a harder game instead. Oh, I'd like you to bring me a team of dedicated hobby-term devs and designers and make them recreate for me the FFV re-release in RPG Maker, and make it feel like an exact replica if possible. You keep bringing that up, I want you to show me its possible. Actually, there's one thing I didn't mention about the rerelease, also from the FF Wikia as a source: the whole coding was remade from scratch. So if the game can be coded again and be delivered in a better form than SE has to offer, show me and I'm with you. Mind you, I don't want a mod out of it.

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But hey, you're welcome to hold your lowered expectations and standards. I however, am not going to wast money on something like this and send the message to SE that it's just fine for them to rehash old material with minimal effort.

You're also welcome to compare 're-releases' of old games to the new games of today and mark them a 'F' for having none of the standards of today, even if that's the case by default. This port is actually better than the FF7 port for mobiles you know. Instead of grasping at the sprites as the clutch of your entire argument, why not grasp at the non-graphical extras instead?

yoshi314

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #15 on: 2015-10-01 18:59:28 »
in case someone missed this lengthy writeup on the topic : http://www.fortressofdoors.com/doing-an-hd-remake-the-right-way/

hian

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #16 on: 2015-10-02 05:44:08 »
These reasonable expectations are for an updated release of a classic to not go with a certain art style, even if it is inherently better than the original game?

No, these reasonable expectations are for AAA production companies to make products that don't look like "s h i t" (spelled out for you benefit). Saying "well it looks slightly better than a product made 2 or so decades ago" is no an excuse.

Again, why should I care about comparing SE spriters to random unnamed indie spriters? You compare the 'rerelease' to the 'original', everything has been that way. You don't compare the 'rerelease' with 'another game'. When comparing the 'rerelease' to the 'original' in terms of sprites, the sprites are certainly better. Just because 'another game' has better sprites, doesn't mean there was laziness or ineptitude in the equation.

You don't have to care about anything. That's not the argument. I don't give 2  "s h i t s" about your "feelz" on this topic.
And, no, you're just wrong.
If the sprites in a game released by a god damn AAA company like SE looks looks bad compared to sprites made by teens in their mom's basement on their own dime and time, then that barring some serious issues with the company, this does indeed mean either ineptitude or laziness, because there really are no other alternatives. Have about you make an actual argument instead of just asserting the opposite to be true?

Fine. Its extremely tragic to YOU. Not to me though. Again, you're basing your whole criticism on an art style. Art style wise, its great, and much better than the original. Where is the 'tragic' in that, I don't know.

Your reading comprehension and propensity for straw-manning is another thing that's pretty tragic
I'm not arguing for realistic graphics - if I were I wouldn't be playing the original to begin with now would I?
I am not arguing that you need to find it tragic.
I am arguing that this level of sprite and tile design granted the industry at the moment indicative of bad policy at SE, and that is bad by any meaningful definition of the term when SE has produced several other high-quality remakes before shitting out this travesty on the mobile market.

I'm not sure what kind of bad direction is there to be seen in the sprites. We're looking at sprites that actually manage to both balance telling the sprite's features and leaving imagination room open. They didn't kill the possibilities of imagination by making the sprite more detailed, and they didn't decrease the features by putting less details..

That's all in the realm of the subjective though. I think they easily could have had more detail, been in a different size, had a richer and more diverse color-palette, without "killing the possibilities of imagination", although I am not even sure that's a problem anyways.

Really? So just because the sprites turned out to be these, he's either lazy, in-competitive, or the company is idiotic? Sure. I'm an idiot if for example, I prefer my art to look cartoonish over realistic. I'm lazy because I think a noir artstyle is more fitting. I'm incompetent because my artstyle is cutesy looking. Your problem here is not that the art style itself is not good, your problem is that you're comparing random sprites from other unrelated individuals to a set of sprites chosen for the re-release of a classic.

Your inability to read what I am actually saying and respond in a non-retrograde emotional reactionary fashion is quite frustrating.
Again - it's lazy, or inept to use sub-par sprites and tiles for a remake of a game when you have a multi-billion dollar development and publishing company in your back.

This has nothing to do with realism, art-style preferences, or whether or not the sprites are "true to the original" - it has everything to do with the fact that they're low-quality shoddy pieces of work when you consider the standards of the industry.

Again, there are countless sprite-artists out there SE could have hired who could make cartoony, cutesy, true to the original sprites that look better than these ones. That's a fact. They could also have saved money and given a more deserving person a career. That's another fact. If you pay for this s h i t, you're telling SE that's okay, and they should keep on doing that. That's the final fact.

But by all means, keep on rowing that boat.
 
If its graphically subpar to other games, not my problem, even if it probably isn't. What matters is that it's graphically better compared to the original..

Of course it's not your problem. Stop responding as if this argument is about you and your feelings - it isn't. How old are you 14? I'm not racking on you for liking this game, and you're allowed to like games that other people don't like.
Here's the thing though "well, I'm okay with it" is not a counter-argument to a claim about the quality of a game.

You can love a game that have FPS dropping down into around 10 as much as you want, but that would still be a game with bad FPS - end of story.
You can enjoy those sprites as much as you want, but they're still bad in the context of what sort of sprites are being made out there in the industry.

 
And again, this is a re-release of a classic game with updated graphics. The graphics of the re-release are better looking than the classic game, therefore the sprites are 'good'. I don't care about indies, aliens, espers, angels, or demons making better sprites than the ones SE made overall, say what you will. What matters is that the sprites are relatively better to the original product. And, even the 'indies' you like to talk about aren't even competing to "FINAL FANTASY V," as that's a game that's been sold since the SNES days in Japan and PSX everywhere else. This re-release is just an extension to that, as is with the other SE ports.

Incoherent ramble. Nice.

I don't approve of comparing an outdated title with outdated standards versus new titles with new standards. You actually want to really evaluate the quality of a 're-release', you'll evaluate it against the old original, as it is then you're comparing the game right by comparing outdated standards in a rerelease with outdated standards in a classic. These re-releases are not meant to compete against the new RPGs of today with whatever advances they brought. Their selling point is more than likely nostalgia..

All games compete mack. Nostalgia might be a selling factor for these games, but it's irrelevant to the point that I'm making.
SE has almost infinite resources to make high-quality ports and remasters of their older games. They can do so with care and effort, or they
can do it with minimal care and effort and just hurl shoddy products out to milk the part of the fan-base that has no standards.

The assertion that I ought to only compare it to the original is ridiculous and vapid - that's not how this works.
This is because as time passes, the situation of the company and the effort and resources going into remastered products change.
If this was a remaster on the PS1 I'd have one set of expectations, if it was on PS2 I'd have another, and if it was on PS3 an entirely different
one again.
You're essentially saying that any remaster as long as it's even 0.000001% better than the original is a warranted product, which is, pardon my french, retarded - and you know this deep down as well, as you'd surely start complaining if SE started to released a new "remaster" of this game only doing marginal sprite improvements.

So no, whether a remaster is good or not is something we judge on how it evolves with the time and how much work is done on it.

I'm not interested in 3D. Whether the game is 2D or 3D is not of any matter to me. Besides that, they're nearly on the same footing as FF5 and FF6 Android with the extras, only with a harder game instead. Oh, I'd like you to bring me a team of dedicated hobby-term devs and designers and make them recreate for me the FFV re-release in RPG Maker, and make it feel like an exact replica if possible. You keep bringing that up, I want you to show me its possible. Actually, there's one thing I didn't mention about the rerelease, also from the FF Wikia as a source: the whole coding was remade from scratch. So if the game can be coded again and be delivered in a better form than SE has to offer, show me and I'm with you. Mind you, I don't want a mod out of it.

I keep on bringing it up because it's the lowest common denominator. Seriously, when you're out-competed in terms of quality from that arena of the industry you need to start readjusting your work.

You don't believe that? Tough for you. I could spend some time going through http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/ and pick out some of the higher quality products, some screen-shots, scripts or resource threads etc. but you know what? Why should I waste time spoon-feeding you?
Do your own leg-work. Read up on game-development - have a look at deviant art pages of indie-designers etc.
If you're not even willing to do that, you're not capable of forming an educated opinion on this topic, and as such, whatever you feel or think on this issue is utterly worthless.

But hey, yeah,give me the funds to do this (the same amount as SE gave the original team) and I would. The funny part of this is that the leg-work of the game-play of pretty much all the FF games have already been scripted to a "T" in the VX Ace engine. The brunt of the work would be sprite-work, creating the events, and balancing the battles, since the script, the cinematography and music is already done. You wouldn't actually need to do much coding at all - only adjust the scripts already on the engine, and feed the data/resources into it.


You're also welcome to compare 're-releases' of old games to the new games of today and mark them a 'F' for having none of the standards of today, even if that's the case by default. This port is actually better than the FF7 port for mobiles you know. Instead of grasping at the sprites as the clutch of your entire argument, why not grasp at the non-graphical extras instead?

The clutch of an argument isn't a matter of choice, it's a logical inference from facts, so no thank you, I'm too fond of my reasoning to throw it out the window based on wishes and whims.

Also, I would not accept that it is the case by default that remasters will get "F"s in comparison to modern games. That's a dumb sentiment.

Most PS1 era JRPGs, in my opinion, are still better in most ways that matter compared to most modern JRPGs - and indeed titles like FF7-9, MGS1, Suikoden 2, Vagrant Story, and countless others still stand out as games that compete with modern titles in every way except graphically and in
terms of sound-production.

They're graphically outdated, but then again, they're old, so they're excused because they couldn't have had much better graphics when they were first made. However, the moment a team of developers says "let's remaster them/release them" that's the moment the standard changes because guess what? They're no longer faced with the same limitations, and they now have the means to make something better just like everyone else.
I will treat them according.

I am not making the argument that you have to. You're the one making the argument that I shouldn't and then go on to contradicting yourself with this final paragraph. Cheers.

DLPB

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #17 on: 2015-10-02 05:52:46 »
Given that people keep on buying these money grabbing remakes and spin offs, no matter how shoddy, is it any wonder they aren't trying?  It's not like they have to.  That's been the common theme and consensus for a long time now.  Nothing new here.  The fact they think it's acceptable to do a "remake" or port as badly as this speaks volumes about the contempt they have for the current generation of gamers.  Who can blame them?  Just keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #18 on: 2015-10-02 14:18:07 »
Wow... This is embarrassing to say the least. point 6 is kinda true for the original too btw.

This may be a product of bad business/office policy. The graphics guy was supposed to finish the seams on Monday, but his boss wouldn't allow him report more work-hours on "tile work" for invoicing reasons. Thus the guy had to cooperate the work-in-progress tiles to the finished product.

SE sets a budget, and the poor guys working on it are hard pressed to justify any work that isn't strictly necessary to finish the product.
I can be wrong of course....

In my previous job I had to justify every hour I worked on a product in order to bill the customers correctly. It was a pain in the ass, so I quit.

EDIT: lmao, whats up with the modify option? it doesn't save. The post stays as is...
« Last Edit: 2015-10-02 14:22:49 by gjoerulv »

Covarr

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #19 on: 2015-10-02 15:33:38 »
I see things are getting a bit heated. I just wanna issue a friendly reminder: keep it civil. If I see things getting out of hand, or attacks getting too personal, I will not hesitate to hand out warn levels.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: FF5 on Steam looks a bit very crap
« Reply #20 on: 2015-10-02 22:04:48 »
I see things are getting a bit heated. I just wanna issue a friendly reminder: keep it civil. If I see things getting out of hand, or attacks getting too personal, I will not hesitate to hand out warn levels.