Author Topic: The voice in clouds head ....  (Read 3764 times)

Tsunamix

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The voice in clouds head ....
« on: 2016-09-27 23:47:26 »
Who is this voice?
I'm pretty sure it's Zack but i'm unsure

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #1 on: 2016-09-27 23:56:01 »
It's not Zax.  That would be impossible, since Cloud can't hear like Aerith can (and I don't think people all stay in the Lifestream having a party anyway - they are reincarnated as other things) - he is not an Ancient.

It's Cloud. The real Cloud urging himself to remember the truth - that his life is being fabricated based on Zax's life.  This is extremely hard to understand in the original localization. Every time Cloud goes to sleep or is otherwise unconscious (and sometimes even when he isn't - like in the Church speaking to Leno/Reno) he starts to urge himself to remember the truth.

In Reactor 1: "This isn't just a reactor / This is more than just a reactor"  - urging him to remember what happened at the Nibl reactor.

In Aerith's Home: Remembers his mother before his home was burned down. Trying to remember the mission and the significance of it on his current ego problem.

In Reactor 5: The part where he confronts Sephiroth. In the real story, he throws Sephiroth down into the reactor.  But in the fake version, he doesn't.

In the church: Remembers that he fell down in Mt Nibl as a child and "only grazed his knees"  "back then".

Every single time it is the real Cloud trying to break free.

Perhaps the best place to understand this is at the Honeybee Manor... at least it is with the relocalization:

Code: [Select]
{CLOUD}
“Huh? You?”{NEW}
“What are you doing here?”
------------------------------
#cy 48
{GRAY}‘That’s what I was about to ask you.
 Should you be wasting time like this?’
------------------------------
#cy 48
{GRAY}‘Think you alone can solve all the
 problems in that little head of yours?’
------------------------------
#cy 96
{GRAY}‘You must have realized by now that
 nothing changes when you only ever
 look at things from afar?’
[This may need a slight tweak in time, but I think
it's pretty good like this too.  The idea is "When
you don't do anything about things. When you
just sit back and watch"]
------------------------------
#cy 96
{CLOUD}
“What are you saying?”
------------------------------
#cy 96
‘Looks like it’s moving.’
------------------------------
#cy 96
{CLOUD}
“What is?”
------------------------------
#cy 96
‘Wake up!’

The "wake up" command is literally telling himself to break free of the lie.  Sephiroth also uses it to Cloud - but, knowing Cloud's messed up, he is doing it to gain an advantage over him.
« Last Edit: 2016-09-28 00:06:11 by DLPB »

Tsunamix

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #2 on: 2016-09-28 00:38:56 »
Well i'll be. Nice. I actually thought in the church it was his mother speaking. Damn this seems like a spoiler in my voices mod ..

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #3 on: 2016-09-28 00:47:27 »
Definitely don't use normal Cloud voice.  Use a generic voice that isn't used elsewhere, or something. :)

Tsunamix

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #4 on: 2016-09-28 00:52:48 »
I'll alter his somehow like a thought breaking in but it may still be noticable

Tsetra

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #5 on: 2016-10-16 05:23:38 »
Sorry for jumping in relatively late but I really just wanted to post here because this is one of the worst explained things in the game even though it's HUGELY important.

As said, the voice is Cloud. The game points out a couple things to you but in a crappy way: SOLDIERs have to be mentally fit to undergo the Mako showering otherwise they lose their own ego in the well of information it brings on. Also, JENOVA even in cellular form reads the memory of others and adapts to them.

So, we know Cloud is taken in by Hojo for experimentation and basically overdoses on Mako for 5 years. He's also injected with JENOVA cells during his time. This is also important: during this time Zack is wearing his SOLDIER uniform and Cloud is still in his standard military outfit.

Cloud loses his own ego and becomes catatonic. Hojo suspects Sephiroth is still around somehow and wants to make remotes for him he can basically use (the game mistakenly calls them "clones") which is what he's trying to do. Since Zack is already a resilient member of SOLDIER the experiments don't have much impact on him. Cloud however succumbs easily and thus Hojo is successful on him.

Zack escapes and takes Cloud with him so they can escape to Midgar. Zack stuffs Cloud into a spare SOLDIER uniform at this point before they are attacked and he dies, giving Cloud his buster sword. Cloud's JENOVA cells start to pick up on Zack's memories and coupled with their convos and what Zack has shown him, Cloud at this point genuinely thinks he is a former member of SOLDIER going to Midgar to be a mercenary because that's what Zack was going to do. When he sees Tifa, his JENOVA cells tweak out again for a bit and he gets her memories of him which conveniently just reinforce the idea that he went to become a member of SOLDIER and that his name is Cloud. So everything makes it seem like he really was a member of SOLDIER, he wasn't lying or having a traditional mental breakdown, he was under the influence of Mako poisoning and JENOVA cells.

His flashes and the voices in his head, as explained, are from his real memories trying to emerge. Other than that, it's all JENOVA cobbled memory.

Finally, when he finds Hojo, Hojo calls him "the failure". He calls him that because he mistakes him for Zack whom his procedure didn't work on. In fact, Cloud was the successful one and the procedure did work. And regardless of his reasons he thought he may have had, he ultimately reunited with JENOVA and Sephiroth as his cells subtly commanded him to do.

It's a shame this detail isn't better hinted at in the story because it makes it so much more intriguing and still to this day is one of the most misunderstood parts of the storyline.

EDIT - Also, the Ultimania spells out far more plainly the details in how JENOVA cells read memories.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-16 05:43:31 by Tsetra »

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #6 on: 2016-10-16 06:27:28 »
Well explained :)  And yes, that's what "The Reunion" is - as Hojo says in the game.  All of Jenova's cells come back together, a bit like the T1000 in Terminator 2. Since Cloud has Jenova cells, he too was "summoned" - along with all the black cloaked people. 

Should also be noted that the procedure didn't work on Zax because his will was too great.  Cloud's will was not strong and so he was manipulated. At least, that's how I read the scene with Cloud explaining this.

The "clones" thing is literally written in English (kana) as "Copy".  This is also really annoying, since it isn't literally a "copy" of Sephiroth, but a copy of the PROCEDURE used to create Sephiroth. In other words, it's the process.  I've debated removing "copy" and using "Sephiroth - Type"  or something... but nothing seems to really work properly.What the writers should have done is given the project a name in FF7. At least later in the game it's explained a bit:

Code: [Select]
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“I never was in Soldier.”{NEW}
“The events from five years ago,
  all the stuff about Soldier,it
  was an illusion that I created.”{NEW}
“I left my village looking for glory,
  but never made it.”{NEW}
“I was ashamed of being so weak.
  Then I heard Zax talking about
  himself…”{NEW}
“I mixed his life with my own
  and created a fantasy.”{NEW}
“I’ve been trapped
  in it ever since.”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“An illusion?
  Sure had me fooled.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Physically,I’m very similar
  to someone in Soldier.”{NEW}
“Hojo’s Sephiroth-Copies are nothing
  special. The process used to create
  them is identical to the one that’s
  used on members of Soldier.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“You see,those who are a good
  prospect for Soldier aren’t just
  irradiated with Mako…”{NEW}
“Their bodies are actually
  injected with Jenova cells.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“For better or worse,only the
  strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}
“This has nothing to do with
  Jenova’s Reunion,either.”{NEW}
“It’s just that if the process is used
  on someone who’s weak-willed,
  like me,they lose themselves.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“A man born from Jenova
  cells,Sephiroth’s will,and
  his own weaknesses.”{NEW}
“That’s… the {CLOUD}
  that you all knew.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“The master of my
  own illusionary world.”{NEW}
“But I don’t need illusions anymore.
  It’s time to stop living a lie,and to
  start being myself.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You mean the stubborn,
  moody {CLOUD}… right?”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“Ha!
  Some change that is!”
« Last Edit: 2016-10-16 10:44:06 by DLPB »

Matski

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #7 on: 2016-10-16 21:55:24 »
I take it that the reason members of Soldier don't turn up to the Reunion is because they're too strong-willed to let Jenova take control of them. I don't know why but I never liked that idea that all Soldiers have Jenova cells. It could have been easier just to write it so that Soldiers were only infused with mako, saving many players wondering why the entire Soldier unit didn't show up at the Northern Crater.

Tsunamix

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #8 on: 2016-10-16 23:14:35 »
This is pretty damn deep guys. The original reason i asked this was because i wanted to know how to voice this. I feel like if i get my original cloud actor to do it even in a strange way it would be a huge spoiler for new players. It would just suck. At any point does this voice say something to a point we know it's cloud so i can morph another actors into clouds and people be like "Oh crap, That's cloud!?"

Tsetra

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #9 on: 2016-10-17 00:50:30 »
Your best bet would be to use a "Young Cloud" voice that only ever comes back up again when Cloud and Tifa fall into the lifestream at Mideel. As Tifa digs through Cloud's memories, he can use that voice in those memories (when it's specifically a younger Cloud speaking) allowing the player to realize that's who the mysterious voice is.


I take it that the reason members of Soldier don't turn up to the Reunion is because they're too strong-willed to let Jenova take control of them.

Pretty much. The reunion was just a theory when SOLDIER was formed so you wouldn't think applicants were screened for that reason, but the cells messing with memories would definitely require members who were confident in who they were. As a result, they wouldn't feel the same need to go to the reunion and most definitely didn't, seeing as you fight their ranks even after the initial Northern Crater incident.

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #10 on: 2016-10-17 05:32:09 »
That does still leave a plot hole though... since the entire thing was supposed to reassemble. Or perhaps not.

Kaldarasha

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #11 on: 2016-10-17 07:00:32 »
The voice must be a mixture of his children (there are two) and young alter ego and does need some distortion filters. As it is his mind and the mind itself has no voice, I would leave it as text only. Stylistic-wise a good opportunity to make it outstanding.

Bosola

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #12 on: 2016-10-17 20:38:45 »
Yes, 'clones' is a very unfortunate choice of terminology indeed. When Sephiroth reveals Cloud was never the man he thought he was, I'm sure a lot of players interpreted 'clone' to mean Cloud was some kind of artificial, genetic copy, grown in a vat somewhere.

I'm not sure what translation I'd use myself. 'Derivative'? 'Imitation'? 'Analogue'?

Covarr

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #13 on: 2016-10-17 21:52:33 »
My first thoughts were 'facsimile' and 'replica'... but neither really conveys quite the right meaning. 'Reproduction' or 'counterpart' are maybe a little closer, as is 'analogue'. Alas, I am not convinced there's a word in the English language that means exactly what is needed.

Ultimately, DLPB's choice, copy, is at least tolerable and much better than clone.

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #14 on: 2016-10-17 22:06:38 »
N
Yes, 'clones' is a very unfortunate choice of terminology indeed. When Sephiroth reveals Cloud was never the man he thought he was, I'm sure a lot of players interpreted 'clone' to mean Cloud was some kind of artificial, genetic copy, grown in a vat somewhere.

I'm not sure what translation I'd use myself. 'Derivative'? 'Imitation'? 'Analogue'?

None of those or even the word "copy" work since they all miss the intended meaning of the process rather than the person (although imitation is not bad).  It's a ridiculous writing choice that led to this, but anything is better than clone. I used copy since that's what the kana is and it has also been discussed under that term, so changing it would probably lead to even more confusion. It's a no win situation unless we want to cheat entirely and just create a name for the process itself.... which I'm not really allowed to do.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-19 06:32:51 by DLPB »

Tsetra

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #15 on: 2016-10-19 06:06:44 »
That does still leave a plot hole though... since the entire thing was supposed to reassemble. Or perhaps not.

Hah, yeah I agree with it being sort of a plot hole. I almost wrote something about it but decided I wasn't about to touch the issue. Future works in the franchise just make it worse in regards to JENOVA, but I digress. :)

genesis063

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #16 on: 2016-11-16 19:19:19 »
Keep in mind there is a deleted scene that Cait tells the party what happened.  I assume it is after Cloud telling them not sure though.

DLPB

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #17 on: 2016-11-16 19:27:39 »
It's at the same time, but removed because Cloud does it instead (it's mostly the exact same information worded differently). It's not a deleted scene in the sense it was meant to be used - it was definitely meant to be left out.

Science Is Bigoted

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Re: The voice in clouds head ....
« Reply #18 on: 2016-11-26 21:59:01 »
The word "remote" is good, but maybe you could call it an imprint.  You put a mark on someone, biologically and spiritually, that gives Sephiroth a chance to manipulate them if they are weak-willed.

A better word would be "infection".  A Jenova infection grants you improved abilities, but it also allows Sephiroth to manipulate you if you can't resist him.

Look at the Ex-Soldier in Junon at the end of Disc 2.  He's on the third floor of the last shop in the far side of town, by the cargo ship.  I guess as you age and your will slips, Sephiroth can take over.