Author Topic: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer  (Read 12510 times)

Caledor

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #75 on: 2019-06-22 23:17:40 »
You should read what I wrote.  Devoting massive resources to graphics takes time away from other areas of the game.  You realize this thing has a deadline and a budget... right?

ATM i think the opposite in my optimism. My opinion is that they don't care about budget and they can parallelize work by assigning battle graphics and story to entirely different teams. About the budget i'm convinced they will probably ignore it in the belief that if they do a good job, any budget they put in it will return a hundredfold, while if they screw this up it will haunt them forever. Scrapping most of CC2's work after 2 years only reinforced this belief.

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #76 on: 2019-06-23 12:46:38 »
A company that doesn't care about budget will never happen. Especially Square Enix.  All of their efforts with remakes and spin offs are profit driven and it's certainly not the company it was when it was just Square.  So, I can't agree they'll indefinitely expand on this without further cost (for example, DLC / further games you have to buy).

Passing graphics on to other departments does not in any way mitigate the cost and time of production - mainly because the story is directly tied to graphics (the more story, the more cost). We'll find out one day, but I'll be amazed if they do it justice.  I'm already seeing clear signs and evidence they aren't.

 ;D  But I'll try to leave this thread in peace.  I've got nothing but contempt for their effort so far.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-23 13:18:20 by DLPB »

sithlord48

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #77 on: 2019-06-23 13:30:25 »
FF7Remake is unrealistic are you kidding? There are very very few parts of Pick any FF game that are realistic. That is just a poor argument.

Im going to guess you never played FF15 because if you had you would be able to tell how different the combat is. The combat does look like kinda like 15 but it doesn't function like 15. in 15 you got a few moves when your filled a bunch of attack bars In FF7R its ATB, where the bar fills over time and also with attacks (yeah i hope they drop the with attacks parts). I would have really like pure menu based ATB combat but thats unrealistic so you would hate it. I started looking into the battle system more reading and watching what those played the demo at e3 said (im sure you will just say they are paid to make it sound good).  You can do a block or standard strawberries attacks like a normal attack until your time bar fills up and you get a menu where you can use items etc.. I really hope there is an auto pause mode option for this as i think most of us would want to play that way and you don't have to hold a button like in FF15. Yeah you can map shortcuts for those who don't want to dig thru the menu to find an attack and or spam the same attack alot. Kinda like memory option that many menu based systems have so you can quickly get to the command you want. So i can't really hate on that feature at all as its literally a more modernized method of the memory option.

Do I think that FF7R is doing everything perfectly? NO there is a lot I have concerns about. How are saves gonna work for other parts? Will they just become DLC for this game, sadly maybe the best way to do the episodes to keep a consistent experience thought all parts. ?  Game 1 ends when you leave midgar and is two full blurays ? That alone has me worried Are all the textures 4k or 8k to future proof for ps5? is the game 100% voice acted? is it tons of cutscenes? What is all this data?  what did they add to the midgar section to make it longer? why is sephiroth showing up in midgar in what look to be around bombing mission? More i can't even think of right now. Its looking like this could be done as well as the RE2 Remake so yes I'm excited to see how it turns out.

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #78 on: 2019-06-23 14:01:02 »
It's not a poor argument.  And I'm not talking about realism - I'm talking about believability in the world presented - Storytelling.  They're completely different things.  Unless you think anything should happen for any reason - which is bad story telling. Again, read what I wrote. If you have seamless battles with cutscenes showing your characters shot and stabbed - and then you see Aerith killed by a single stab, how do you reconcile those?  In the original game, you separated battle from story and suspended disbelief.  You can't do that with the remake. That's one problem of 100 I could mention.

It's so sad that so many people don't seem to understand what good fiction is about.

And I'm seeing a lot of suck with this remake already.  You're the one mentioning perfection, not me.

Have you even heard the dialogue released so far?  The characters don't even look right. It sounds like a cheap hollywood film.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-23 14:33:10 by DLPB »

-Ric-

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #79 on: 2019-06-23 15:39:27 »
If you have seamless battles with cutscenes showing your characters shot and stabbed - and then you see Aerith killed by a single stab, how do you reconcile those?

Creepy looking Planetary-scale being with 5 meter sword and glorious white hair>fodder lvl 10 enemy.  It's not that hard.

sithlord48

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #80 on: 2019-06-23 16:17:50 »
It's not a poor argument.  And I'm not talking about realism - I'm talking about believability in the world presented - Storytelling.  They're completely different things.  Unless you think anything should happen for any reason - which is bad story telling. Again, read what I wrote. If you have seamless battles with cutscenes showing your characters shot and stabbed - and then you see Aerith killed by a single stab, how do you reconcile those?  In the original game, you separated battle from story and suspended disbelief.  You can't do that with the remake.

Your argument is a poor argument because this is a literally a trope in the medium. So let me ask you Does this mean chrono trigger or any game where you can see the mobs on screen is strawberries from a realism perspective?


DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #81 on: 2019-06-23 16:24:42 »
You don't understand the difference between realism and believability. Using "trope" as a defence isn't a defence. The original game was very well written. The remake is a bag of strawberries. It's no good keep harping on about realism in a fantasy game, but you really should understand what makes a fiction well written and what doesn't. Fictional worlds have rules.  When you break the rules you've established, you ruin the story. This is especially true when you break those rules purely to show off graphics.  Did you miss the shitstorm that went down with the latest season of Game of Thrones?  Hundreds of thousands of people signed a petition because of how poor the writing had become and how many deus ex machina / plot holes, and so on, had been deployed.

People with half a brain care about good story telling. I'm one of them.  I don't enjoy turning off my brain. I enjoy having to educate you on this even less.

obesebear

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #82 on: 2019-06-23 17:32:51 »
Why does improved graphics equal poor storytelling?  Surely then we should just go back to a time before movies and video games, or even picture books.  Good storytelling is enhanced by quality visuals and audio, not the other way around.

hotdog963al

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #83 on: 2019-06-23 21:47:20 »
I thought the remake was going to be terrible, I was going to avoid it, but DLPB is making me want to give it a chance!

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #84 on: 2019-06-23 22:02:13 »
All of their efforts with remakes and spin offs are profit driven and it's certainly not the company it was when it was just Square.  So, I can't agree they'll indefinitely expand on this without further cost (for example, DLC / further games you have to buy).

Passing graphics on to other departments does not in any way mitigate the cost and time of production - mainly because the story is directly tied to graphics (the more story, the more cost). We'll find out one day, but I'll be amazed if they do it justice.  I'm already seeing clear signs and evidence they aren't.



I can't make my position on this any clearer than that. FF12, 13, 14, 15, the spin offs, the sad "remasters", and Advent Children, and the released info and scenes so far from FF7r all point to me being right.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-23 22:03:44 by DLPB »

-Ric-

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #85 on: 2019-06-24 00:21:02 »
I can't make my position on this any clearer than that. FF12, 13, 14, 15, the spin offs, the sad "remasters", and Advent Children, and the released info and scenes so far from FF7r all point to me being right.

FF12 is amazing. FF14 is one of the most successful MMORPGs ever and 15 is fun as hell. While not as good as the others, 13 is still enjoyable. Next.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #86 on: 2019-06-24 02:13:33 »
12 is good, but it doesn't hold a candle to 10 and prior.

13 is not good...you can like it, that's fine. But others' liking does not convince me it's a good game. No one can change my mind on that.

14 is successful, but success only measures success. I've tried it several times after new expansion releases, and every time something just felt missing. I think it's maybe the good story tied down by boring kill/fetch quests. I don't really do well with MMOs in general.

15 I never played. I watched some videos online but nothing grabbed at my attention to warrant a PS4/game purchase. I can't knock it for that, but it's hard to praise either when first impressions weren't "fun as hell" for me.

FF7:R has my interest, but probably moreso due to nastalgia. It feels more like a battle to hold onto my beloved original, rather than trying to embrace this new vision. Gotta see more before I can begin to parse my thoughts on it.

-Ric-

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #87 on: 2019-06-24 02:51:28 »
12 is good, but it doesn't hold a candle to 10 and prior.

12's pace, voice acting, dialogues and even the combat are all amazing. The story itself is also great. Some of the characters don't have very interesting backgrounds but it's definitely one of the good Final fantasy games.

You should give 15 a go. The combat might not blow you away but the characters are all pretty good and their friendship, leading all the way to the end has some twists that you might not expect. The story isn't bad either but they screwed up by having it split into movies, game, DLC. And well, you can snatch it for PS4 for like 15 bucks so it's not all that expensive anymore.


FF7:R has my interest, but probably moreso due to nastalgia. It feels more like a battle to hold onto my beloved original, rather than trying to embrace this new vision. Gotta see more before I can begin to parse my thoughts on it.

The best thing about it, and a thing that everyone appears to overlook is that you don't need to fight that battle. You can get the remake and enjoy it, you can keep the original and enjoy it. It's a new take on FF7, not a replacement. The original will always be there for you. Available pretty much on any console, tablet, phone. I'm sure you could even get it on some of Samsung's fridges if you really wanted it.

This is why I don't get the whole crying and moaning about the remake. Don't like it? Great. The original is there for you and will always be.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-24 02:59:21 by -Ric- »

gjoerulv

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #88 on: 2019-06-24 08:03:17 »
The best thing about it, and a thing that everyone appears to overlook is that you don't need to fight that battle. You can get the remake and enjoy it, you can keep the original and enjoy it. It's a new take on FF7, not a replacement. The original will always be there for you. Available pretty much on any console, tablet, phone. I'm sure you could even get it on some of Samsung's fridges if you really wanted it.

This is why I don't get the whole crying and moaning about the remake. Don't like it? Great. The original is there for you and will always be.

Welp, it's a huuuge missed opportunity to have a massive production team remaking FF7 legally, the "right(ish)" way, instead of creating FF7R: the DBZ-matrix-realism-crap reboot lol. Same with most of the other FF ports/remakes, instead here it's wasted by cheap and lazy production cycles. But, shrug, I don't really care, SE is pretty much a lost cause in the FF department as far as I'm concerned.

Whereas the cryers may cry, there are at least 10x as many who seemingly just loves whatever SE throws at them regarding FF7r. There are plenty of reaction vids out there with more cringeworthy statements to count.

-Ric-

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #89 on: 2019-06-24 12:55:41 »
Welp, it's a huuuge missed opportunity to have a massive production team remaking FF7 legally, the "right(ish)" way, instead of creating FF7R: the DBZ-matrix-realism-crap reboot lol. Same with most of the other FF ports/remakes, instead here it's wasted by cheap and lazy production cycles. But, shrug, I don't really care, SE is pretty much a lost cause in the FF department as far as I'm concerned.

Whereas the cryers may cry, there are at least 10x as many who seemingly just loves whatever SE throws at them regarding FF7r. There are plenty of reaction vids out there with more cringeworthy statements to count.

Most remasters have been great actually. 10/10-2 look and play amazing on modern generations/PC and include all the international content that the original US release didn't, 12 is AMAZING since it not only includes the international's zodiac job system but it also includes many new additions. 3 for the DS/Android is a great game, 4 is absolutely amazing on the DS and even on Android especially since they went with a more difficult version. 7 plays great on PS4/switch and FF5 for Android is one of the best games I've played. Sure, some of the other ports have issues but most of them are good.

gjoerulv

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #90 on: 2019-06-24 15:40:11 »
Fair enough; aside from FF3 and 4 I can agree with you. The 3D versions of 3 and 4 are rather awkward imo, but admittedly it's 'cause of the style they chose. It feels more like, I dunno, pokemon games...  It may somewhat fit FF3, but personally, I still prefer the NES version. I couldn't recommend any of the original NES versions though. They haven't aged well, considering things like convenient features and those horrible encounter rates.

Kefka

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #91 on: 2019-06-24 17:54:06 »
My thoughts on the remake so far:

Graphics and presentation overall are top-notch, but that was to be expected anyway, seeing as those are the points that SE has been focusing on in all of their main FF games for the last 10 or so years while neglecting more important things like gameplay and story (cough*FFXIII*cough). The character design doesn't look half-bad, save for a few design choices that really left me scratching my head. I understand Tifa's bra, but why would Barret need sun glasses in a city where you can't even see the sky most of the time (the slums being below the plate)?

Anyway, on to the more important points:

The battle system: Personally I would've preferred the classic ATB system, so when they first announced an action-oriented combat system for the remake I felt quite disappointed. I'm not saying that action-based systems are bad in general, but they're simply not my style. Their recent announcement that you should be able to choose between action mode or turn-based mode does make me feel a LITTLE better, at least, but as others have said already, it'll all depend on how they implement that. I can hardly imagine having two different combat systems in one and the same game, so I'll remain sceptical about this one... unfortunately it's impossible to judge the battle system just from watching trailers, as you can't see which/how many buttons the player needs to press in order to perform the actions on screen.

As for the episodic release, that was perhaps the biggest bummer to me when I first heard about it, leaving me with the same questions that so many others have asked already: how are they going to handle level-ups? Or the World Map? Will there even be one? I cannot imagine FFVII without one, yet at the same time, I don't see SE coming up with a world map again, seeing as they've scrapped that idea even for FFXV where such a thing was originally planned. How will data transfer from one episode to the next be handled (not just stats, materia and items, but also treasure chests openend, sidequest completed, dialogue choices i.e. love points for the Gold Saucer date)? Will it be possible to revisit locations from earlier episodes? They very much need to be, seeing as most of discs 2 and 3 in the original consisted of revisiting former towns and dungeons again. But that would mean that all locations have to be present on every blue-ray, and if that's truly the case the very choice of making the remake episodic in the first place becomes... questionable...

Finally, about the 'believability' discussion: I can understand what DLPB means. On older consoles, battles in RPGs were meant to be merely symbolic and not to be taken seriously. There has always been a clear differentiation of what a character can do in a battle, and what he's capable of in 'field mode'. Every fictional world, despite being a fantasy universe only, still has to follow its own inherent rules to maintain credibility within its story. The characters in FFVII were always supposed to represent regular people like you and me, and while their physical capabilities may exceed those of others due to some of them being martial artists and/or having undergone military training, it never went out of control in the original game.

That changed with the Compilation, starting with Advent children: I've only watched AC once, but I still somewhat remember that battle against Bahamut in Midgar. The one that ends with Cloud jumping/getting thrown endlessly high up in the air (you can see the city of Midgar waaaayy down below), slicing Bahamut, and then dropping back to earth and landing on his feet... unhurt! And those are the kind of scenes that rob the universe and its characters of any credibility, for no one can seriously buy that Cloud would ever be able to pull something like that off. It goes against the very nature of the FFVII universe. Or did you never ask yourself: if the party characters were indeed capable of jumping that high, why did they ever bother to climb the floors of the Shinra headquarter by foot? According to AC, they should've been able to just jump from the building's entrance to the top floor and be done with it.

And that's the entire point of the believability discussion. The original game had established a clear set of 'rules' for the FFVII universe (most of which follow the same rules as the real world as far as human physical capabilities go), and AC started to violate those. The characters of the original weren't any godlike superhumans, as they've never displayed any such skills outside of battles. They couldn't jump up to the high voltage pole in Junon on their own, they needed a dolphin to help them. They couldn't just smash through walls in buildings, they had to take the doors. They were meant to be normal, albeit physically well-trained people. Yet AC started to turn them into Dragonball characters, something that simply doesn't fit into this game, and quite frankly has no place in it.

The bottom line is: Anything that happens in battles is there merely for the player's entertainment and has no bearing on the games' respective universe, save for scripted battles that are specifically designed for story purposes (e.g. Tellah getting killed by Golbez, Galuf getting killed by Exdeath, General Leo getting killed by Kefka etc.).

sithlord48

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #92 on: 2019-06-24 18:28:32 »
Quote

Did you miss the shitstorm that went down with the latest season of Game of Thrones?
I've never seen a single episode of Game of Thrones

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #93 on: 2019-06-25 01:18:59 »
Probably for the best.  Season 1 to 4 were exceptional though...  but then they ran out of a good storyteller's material.

@Kefka.  Hallelujah!  Someone who gets it.

The times you see characters doing things that are outside believability are generally where we needed the gameplay to be fun - so various field stuff and battles.  But with the remake, all that's into the fire. It will literally be the case that a single character can die of a stab wound one minute and yet be shot in the face the next without a scratch. 

Advent Children is the perfect example of writers who don't get it.

My review is more apt than ever:

https://www.imdb.com/review/rw3221612/?ref_=ur_urv
« Last Edit: 2019-06-25 01:24:47 by DLPB »

gjoerulv

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #94 on: 2019-06-25 08:52:23 »
Spot on Kefka.

Judgment is still due on the battle system, but one can't deny that the "realism" style they go for, combined with what we've seen so far for the battle system, slaps said realism in its face. Who knows, maybe they'll somehow make it work with its internal logic... No, no they won't lol. It will look cool and all, but you have to leave logic aside in order to enjoy it. That's ok imo, as long as you admit it. That's what you do when you watch just about any mainstream action movie. One may enjoy it, but don't make excuses to try and make sense out of it.

What bothers me the most is not fan reactions, the realistic style or the fact that it will be an ARPG. It's the reasoning from the top-brass-devs in SE. Their reasoning has a very corporate ring to it, and are sometimes followed by leading, manipulative suggestions. Example: "It will be an ARPG, like one would expect." This kind of reasoning doesn't come from the passion of making a game. It's carefully considered reasoning that comes from a AAA company out for your moneh. Suddenly, since "one would expect" an ARPG, making it a traditional JRPG "would be a waste" for many. Its pure BS.

Yes, It's all fine that companies make money and creates opportunities and work for many, but I can still call BS on their sugar-coated statements.

Kefka

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #95 on: 2019-06-25 16:08:42 »
By the way, what are your thoughts on this specific point from the interview?

Famitsu - Nomura Interview. - More accurate translation

  • Nomura-san explains that the shadow that appears at the end of the latest trailer is something that has been added for the Remake. They are called "The Guardians of Destiny" (Unmei no Bannin 運命の番人, video) , and it’s a mysterious existence that appears in front of the party. He hopes that those who played the original game will enjoy these new elements.

"Guardians of Destiny"... if they're indeed what their name implies, then that would be a HUGE alteration to the entire FFVII universe, and not one for the better, I fear. So now there are some new higher beings/deities that control the characters' fate? Making sure they take a certain path in life? Like the Occuria from FFXII, or what? I must say, I'm honestly VERY worried about this...

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #96 on: 2019-06-25 16:13:33 »
It's what I call Lucas Syndrome.  It's where a writer isn't really as good as he/she thinks, but has a good imagination, a lot of money, and an enormous ego.  They then proceed to jot down ideas and bizarre "exciting plot threads", but they have no-one qualified to sift through it and make a coherent tale out of it.  So, you just get a disastrous cobbled together mess instead.

Honestly, Nomura hasn't a clue.  He shouldn't be anywhere near the story.  It's not his forte.  Why fix what wasn't broken?  He clearly has no idea what made the original game's story compelling.  I'm tempted to call him an idiot.

It's no surprise to me that they're doing this, either. I've said it before - this is the company that brought you Hojo-brain-in-a-computer retcon.  They're not Sakaguchi.  There's no-one at the wheel. No-one manning the rudder.  Genesis, Necron... you name it - it's all going to be there.

And I'm glad.  Because this remake is going to crash and burn just like it deserves to.  :-D  When you start a remake by deciding you're going to change everything and do nothing the original core fans asked for...  this is what you get.  I must be one of the biggest fans of this game, and my feelings are all in line with me throwing this lot out of production.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-25 16:21:33 by DLPB »

sithlord48

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #97 on: 2019-06-25 16:21:21 »
Hey say what you want about Lucas but, his movies are holding up alot better then what disney has done since they got a hold of it and its only been a few years...

DLPB

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #98 on: 2019-06-25 16:22:07 »
Hey say what you want about Lucas his movies are holding up alot better then what disney has done since the got ahold of it and its only been a few years...

More terrible doesn't make Lucas' shambles good.  Not to mention Crystal Skull..... At least with Disney, you knew it was gonna be crap.  Their eyes were set on the money and merchandise they could sell from day 1.

sithlord48

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Re: [FFVII-R] 03.2020 - New Trailer
« Reply #99 on: 2019-06-25 16:24:20 »
Idk that is completely fair to blame only him for crystal skull, he only co-wrote it. He wrote and directed ep 1-3 of star wars.