Author Topic: New Hardcore Mod  (Read 4649 times)

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« on: 2005-09-07 06:45:37 »
Hi, seeing as elentors hardcore mod seems to have stopped and my one was more of an experiment then a mod, i wanted to make another one based on what you (the people :P ) want.

so..... what do you's want to see changed to make the game harder

The following is a list of stat's that can be changed with the editor for those that dont know.

stats: Hp, Mp, Level, Str, Def, Mag, Mag Def, Evade, Luck, Speed
win: Exp, Gil, Ap, ItemWinChance, ItemStealChance

Kinseek

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« Reply #1 on: 2005-09-07 07:45:53 »
Well, hard from the start.

Just don`t go overboard with HP and Defense for the enemies (cept bosses), the point should be to make the fight harder, not just longer. The key might be getting the attack-values of the enemies just right. And do heavily increase most of the enemies` drainage attacks (those that drain say HP, and give it to themselves). Nothing could be more annoying (in the good sense) of having a foe drain you for 80HP in the beginning of the game and restoring it to himself.

I think higher difficulty might also deem an increase in exp, and perhaps AP, as you are likely to spend longer times levelling (since you`ll often require that). But perhaps making the player spend some time levelling (as in the good ol` days) isn`t so bad either.

ragnarok13

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« Reply #2 on: 2005-09-07 20:34:49 »
Hi, smithie! Here's what I'd like:
 - enemies deal increased damage (x2) - Weapon monsters excluded
 - increase Sephiroth hitpoints (1,000,000+)

That's all that's really neccessary. Increased enemy damage means enough added pressure and challenge in battles.

Here's what I would NOT like:
 - increased enemy hitpoints (except Sephiroth), since prolonged battles would impact the game's great fluidness - short battles are fun and there's plenty of them to make up for that anyway
 - added draining enemy attacks (as suggested by Kinseek above), since it effectively means exactly the same as adding hitpoints - prolonged battles

Modem

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« Reply #3 on: 2005-09-07 21:43:34 »
I feel that the damage of enemies should only be doubled, if at all, outside of Midgar, or, at the very least, at the start of the Shinra Tower.  Any earlier Aerith would get killed in one hit from most enemies, haha.  Up to the tower, maybe just double their HP.  Upping the steal chance of the Striking Staff (stealing from the enemy at the Train Graveyard) would be nice as well.  Other than that, I can't think of a way to make the game any better than it already is.

Kinseek

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« Reply #4 on: 2005-09-07 21:54:01 »
Quote from: Modem
I feel that the damage of enemies should only be doubled, if at all, outside of Midgar, or, at the very least, at the start of the Shinra Tower.  Any earlier Aerith would get killed in one hit from most enemies, haha.  

You kidding? Even tripling the damage would still make Aeris shrug off most attacks.

Just doubling the damage a creature that normaly does 10dmg to a char with perhaps 300HP does barely squat to make it difficult. If the patch is supposed to be "hardcore" it should really be hard from the start and in every facet. Not just "a little harder, but still pretty darn easy".

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« Reply #5 on: 2005-09-08 03:57:22 »
Here's what im thinking so far.

changes will take place from once tifa joins your party as that is when a inn first becomes available along with an area to level up. First boss will also be changed.

standard creatures
- def & mag def increase
- ap reward increase (current ap sucks)
- gil increase (i can never seem to afford anything extra in shops)
- str & mag increase
- steal/win rates increased
- all creatures may be given at least one type of elemental defense
- creature drain attacks increased because draining 1 hp like it currently does is pathetic

uber creatures
- all of the above changes
- hp & mp increase, for a longer challanging battle
- customised so that creatures that use attacks that damage them selve's cannot be damaged by magic and a few other surprises
- exp increase to insure the player gains a level, standard creatures will be left the same to not ruin the flow of the game

what do yous think about 100% or 50% win & steal rates??
also im thinking about significantly increasing each creatures unique feature.. so if a creature is meant to be fast he will become extreamly fast.

you feedback is greatly apreciated

sfx1999

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« Reply #6 on: 2005-09-08 04:00:38 »
Maybe if you made it like FF3, where if you didn't kill the boss fast enough, you got owned. At least that is what happened to me.

ragnarok13

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« Reply #7 on: 2005-09-08 08:35:55 »
You must beware of overdoing it. A creature must be beatable in many ways, if you make it so resistant that only a few strategies work, then all the people that don't know the game damn well will get shafted. That's OK with Weapons, but not much else.

Quote
what do yous think about 100% or 50% win & steal rates??
Win rates are fine as it is. Perhaps raise them slightly? Steal rates should be increased somewhat, but certanly not as high as 50%. I also fail to see, what this has to do with increasing difficulty. It reduces it, if anything.

Quote
also im thinking about significantly increasing each creatures unique feature.. so if a creature is meant to be fast he will become extreamly fast.
There are too many creatures to make them really unique based on the (few) stats. I also think you should focus on simple changes that make the biggest difference first, instead of starting a huge task of fine-tuning each creature right away. It might take a bit too long and I'd personally like a mod that's not half-complete as so many others.

That's why I suggested only two simple changes to start with, which are really all you need for a good start, and you can continue from there, if you'll still be up to it.

Kinseek

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« Reply #8 on: 2005-09-08 08:56:38 »
Quote from: smithie
changes will take place from once tifa joins your party as that is when a inn first becomes available along with an area to level up. First boss will also be changed.

Why not make the first enemies harder also? It worked very well in elentors patch.

Quote from: smithie

standard creatures
- gil increase (i can never seem to afford anything extra in shops)

I don`t think you should do this. I tend to always be able to get * just* the things I need with normal playing, so if you really want the extra stuff you kill some more enemies.

Quote from: smithie

- all creatures may be given at least one type of elemental defense

*All*? Couldn`t you rather give those that look like they should have some elemental defense?

Quote from: smithie

also im thinking about significantly increasing each creatures unique feature.. so if a creature is meant to be fast he will become extreamly fast.

Then comes the problem if the creature is "meant" to be anything. But yeah, it could be cool with some "specialization".

Marc

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« Reply #9 on: 2005-09-08 12:29:34 »
Actually, having played Elementor's patch up until Cloud's flashback I think that his patch was just right.  He did change hitpoints and damage but that didn't necessarilly make the fights longer, maybe one or two rounds longer for normal enemies.  Bosses were longer but alot more challenging.

I'd try and reach him and use the values he had so far if he's okay with it.

I know I also would have liked a change in some elemental resistance in monsters starting from the world map with a few exceptions such as the sewer monster in midgar which actually ends up hitting himself for about 80% of the damage so we should make him water immune so he'd be resistan to his own attacks.  I also suggested giving him a ridiculously low amount of hp but having him absorb his own water damage so you'd actually need to dispatch him in only one turn forcing the player to use timing and strategy while defeating him.

jut my two cents.

ragnarok13

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« Reply #10 on: 2005-09-08 14:26:11 »
Just noticed one thing: if you give all enemies elemental damage, it will make the game easier, not harder. The player will just figure out the element in the first battle, and then equip absorb equippment. He will become invincible to that monster, effectively. And if ALL monsters will allow for such twinking, the game will become a joke. Physical and non-elemental DMG are the only way to go, if you want the monsters to really be more powerful.

Quote
Actually, having played Elementor's patch up until Cloud's flashback I think that his patch was just right. He did change hitpoints and damage but that didn't necessarilly make the fights longer, maybe one or two rounds longer for normal enemies.
Two rounds more than... original two or three rounds? :wink:

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« Reply #11 on: 2005-09-09 12:28:07 »
Quote from: ragnarok13
Just noticed one thing: if you give all enemies elemental damage, it will make the game easier, not harder. The player will just figure out the element in the first battle, and then equip absorb equippment. He will become invincible to that monster, effectively. And if ALL monsters will allow for such twinking, the game will become a joke. Physical and non-elemental DMG are the only way to go, if you want the monsters to really be more powerful.


elemental defense not damage.. in other words the enemy will asbosrb the magic not the other way around. This way the "ALL" materia will be less effective at wiping out groups in one go. also i tried this out on a boss it works quite well, stops players from doing stupid stuff like ice on a metal boss who would just shrug it off in real life.

as with the gil increase, my characters always seem to be way too high of a level because of the fact that i spent alot of time collecting money just to afford all of the characters weapons. but if its not wanted i wont put it in.

I tried increase the creatures unique features but it makes virtually no differense at all so this will probly not be done. the stats dont have as much effect on the game as i hoped. you would think that a boss with full magic def would be immune to magic.. but it doesn't work that way :(.

the first enemies will be harder, they just wont seem that much harder because there rather piss weak to begin with and i want players to have enough potions to be able to beat the first boss. im replacing the assualt gun from the boss with a tent so you can heal yourself after the battle and this makes you buy it from the shop later on(which no one has ever purchased before  :)  )

ive uploaded a more comprehensive .doc file with a better list of modifiers that will be applied to creatures. check it out here

http://www.geocities.com/b_smithie/HardcoreProject.doc

the only other changes i can think of at the moment might be an increase in the defense of standard creature's, so read the doc and let me know of what you think of it so far. The mod will not be made until everything is decided upon, this is to avoid conflicts in the scene files and it is much quicker to make this way.

you will also notice that the level of the creatures has no modifier, this is because no extra experience (except bosses) is given, this way your characters level will progress as normal. let me know if you want this changed but this is how i would like it.

one last unrelated thing i would like to know. How much expience do characters not in your party recieve?, ive noticed they tend to gain levels pretty quick when i would rather them not gain any when im not using them.

-------------------------------- EDIT / ADD --------------------------------------

Just found another editor which includes formation's, it might be possible at a latter date to include more battles against 6 creatures, i know i would seriously like this, what do yous think about this?? If possible i know i would like the chance to run into 6 monsters anywhere in the game. sounds cool to me.  :wicked:

kini

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« Reply #12 on: 2005-09-09 13:29:15 »
i realy hate Master Tonberry maybe lower his HP from 44444 to 4 lol

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« Reply #13 on: 2005-09-09 13:35:41 »
Quote from: kini
i realy hate Master Tonberry maybe lower his HP from 44444 to 4 lol
'coz that truly will be hardcore to kill kim :P

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« Reply #14 on: 2005-09-10 07:15:46 »
hehe .. imagine having to fight more than one of those basterds.. i know i would lose

ragnarok13

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« Reply #15 on: 2005-09-12 09:32:25 »
Quote
elemental defense not damage..
Oops... sorry about that.

Quote
stops players from doing stupid stuff like ice on a metal boss who would just shrug it off in real life
So you're thinking of a complete overhaul? I was more hoping for a simple difficulty increase to start with... Perhaps someone won't like all these changes and would only want difficulty increase, it would be nice to have that patch first, and then upgrade it further to the next level, having both versions available.

Quote
you would think that a boss with full magic def would be immune to magic.. but it doesn't work that way
I was hoping for the same thing when morphing for those sources... didn't turn out as good as I hoped :) I always wondered how Ruby Weapon can then be so resistant to physical attacks and assumed that monster statistics work different than players...

Quote
hehe .. imagine having to fight more than one of those basterds.. i know i would lose
You could increase it to two. I wouldn't mind ;)

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« Reply #16 on: 2005-09-13 04:00:09 »
Quote from: ragnarok13
So you're thinking of a complete overhaul? I was more hoping for a simple difficulty increase to start with... Perhaps someone won't like all these changes and would only want difficulty increase, it would be nice to have that patch first, and then upgrade it further to the next level, having both versions available.


easy done.

Stage 1, Attack Damage Increased.
Stage 2, Attack Damage Increased, Boss Hp + Def Bonus
Stage 3, Attack Damage Increased, Boss Hp + Def Bonus, Elements Applied.

something like that i guess. applying the elementals is going to take some time.

one thing im not sure on is should i increase the health of standard monsters.

------ add -------

also ive decided that there will be no extra rewards whatsoever as it defeats the purpose of making the game harder, the only reward that will be changed is the assualt gun on the first boss. That way players have the choice whether they want to buy it or not from the shop.

ragnarok13

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« Reply #17 on: 2005-09-17 08:28:39 »
Quote
one thing im not sure on is should i increase the health of standard monsters.

I wouldn't, but it's your call.

Kinseek

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« Reply #18 on: 2005-09-17 12:14:07 »
Quote from: smithie

one thing im not sure on is should i increase the health of standard monsters.

I think you should. One thing that makes the game easy is that many of the enemies, both in the beginning and later on even, can go down in even just one physical hit. So increasing the damage they do means little if you are capable of taking them out on your first or second move (slash-all, much of the materia, limits etc.). If the fights are overall to become harder, they must also be longer so that the enemy actually gets to utilize its damaging attacks against the player who has a wide arsenal of spells and abilities to easily take them out.

Though if you do; I would look into increasing exp and ap values so that you don`t spend forever grinding enemies.