Author Topic: Dance, Monkeys, Dance  (Read 7786 times)

Sad Jari

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« on: 2006-04-29 14:07:22 »
http://www.ernestcline.com/dmd/

WARNING: If you believe in creation and/or do not view humans as animals, you might want to skip it, because you'll probably find it offensive.

However, I don't think that the idea was to emphasize that, but rather offer a new perspective to some other things. It's worth watching and thinking about, anyway.

Thrashamatrix

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« Reply #1 on: 2006-04-29 14:44:31 »
Thanks Sad Jari very interesting, I never thought about it like that, "monkeys" quite amuseing. :)

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« Reply #2 on: 2006-04-29 23:05:18 »
That is by far the most offensive movie I have ever seen. In fact I am shocked and appalled. Shocked. And appalled.


...Eh, actually it wasn't too bad. Even though I believe in creationism I still found it funny. More of a slideshow then a movie.

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« Reply #3 on: 2006-04-30 01:57:10 »
that was depressing, but not a very novel view on society

L. Spiro

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« Reply #4 on: 2006-04-30 03:21:58 »
Actually it is pretty accurate.

And as I was just discussing with my boss the night before, religion is by far the worst, stupidest thing man-kind has ever invented.

I find it quite amazing that even today, when mankind is more intelligent than it has ever been, so many people still mindlessly follow some religion or another like a bunch of clueless zombies, blindly following the teachings of their parents.  No need for proof or substantiation; just allow yourself to be brainwashed and you’ll have bliss from then forth.


We also had a deep discussion regarding those imaginary lines in the dirt.
I questioned whether the lines would ever have been drawn if mankind was as advanced then as we are now.
Long ago, mankind needed explanations for things they didn’t understand.
No congregation of humanity was different at that time; they were all seeking answers, and thus multiple religions were born.
To each group of humans, it seems the only answer for the unexplainable was to create some type of “God” in their own images who was responsible for everything they did not understand.
Thus it is very clear that if we were as advanced then as we are now, religion would never have been invented.

But the lines?
The lines mark more than just personal differences.  They mark greed.
Nearly every line people draw in the dirt was originally out of conquest.
Long long ago that was all that was on mankind’s mind.
Nobody stops to consider this.
Nobody stops to consider the idea that mankind had the wrong mindset back when they were drawing all these lines, and that 90% of all these lines need to be redrawn with actual purposes, or just eliminated.
Mankind is suffering today because of the unnatural way lines were drawn long long ago, and now the damage done is too great to reverse.
Because of the way the lines were drawn the first time, people have too much of a hardcoded mindset that that is how it should be and they just take it for granted, assuming the lines are the end-all-be-all definitive measurement of who is who.
Places such as Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel, and Niger are now completely lost in this concept.
Many of them are groups of people inside the same borders who drew yet more lines that aren’t on the maps.

It never occurred to them that without the lines and without religion, all those people around them are just…

…people.


L. Spiro

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« Reply #5 on: 2006-04-30 07:26:03 »
Anyone that follows a religion that has a reward means they aren't selfless when they do acts of "goodness', they simply do it out of fear of punishment (ie Hell)

Sad Jari

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« Reply #6 on: 2006-04-30 09:58:24 »
Quote from: Lieron
Anyone that follows a religion that has a reward means they aren't selfless when they do acts of "goodness', they simply do it out of fear of punishment (ie Hell)

And anyone who swims, does it to get wet, right?

Rather broad generalization, don't you think?

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« Reply #7 on: 2006-04-30 10:50:23 »
Good people are good people, even if they follow a religion.
Good people do good things because it makes them feel good, even if they follow a religion.

You imply that all people who follow religions should do bad things and go to Hell, or else do good things, be a hypocrite, and go to Hell.


L. Spiro

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« Reply #8 on: 2006-04-30 19:44:45 »
Quote from: Lieron
Anyone that follows a religion that has a reward means they aren't selfless when they do acts of "goodness', they simply do it out of fear of punishment (ie Hell)


No. You can do acts of "goodness" simply out of belief that it is the right thing to do.

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« Reply #9 on: 2006-05-01 00:22:05 »
But what is "right" or "good"? It is simply defined by what God (or w/e) dictates. Something is right because it agrees with what your religion says. Think about it. People dont steal (normally) because they feel they lose soemthing, but out of fear of punishment.

And the swim thin, you expect to get wet though, right? You dont jump in expecting to to be dry after hopping out. Same thing applies, people expect that by doing good things and not bad things they will get rewarded and not punished.

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« Reply #10 on: 2006-05-01 02:09:29 »
Quote from: Lieron
But what is "right" or "good"?

Congratulations, you've discovered ethics, a by now rather well-established disciplinary field of study. I bet if you continue you will discover even more things most of the people around you already know about.

Quote from: Lieron
It is simply defined by what God (or w/e) dictates. Something is right because it agrees with what your religion says. Think about it. People dont steal (normally) because they feel they lose soemthing, but out of fear of punishment.

So Christians around the world are against genetic manipulation because "thou shalt not splice"? And atheists always live purely anarchistic, egoistical lives, because no god has told them not to steal? Sorry, but that statement simply does not work. If you have dropped so far that you need your religion to tell you what specific things you as an individual cannot do if you're going to live in a working society, then the foundation is already rotten. "Thou shalt not kill", well D'UH! Would you like for someone else to be allowed to do that to you? No? Well that's your answer then. The golden principle is rather popular in the theories regarding ethics, I might add. I know that at least I make frequent use of it, intentionally, when faced with severe moral dilemmas. It is not far-fetched to imagine it strikes upon a deeper instinctual attitude from our flock-living days.

If anything, it would be more logical to assume that religion borrowed its central moral code from the existing morals (which have emerged naturally in any human society since the animal days), in an attempt to lend it more credibility and more importantly to keep the rules that enable a stable society. Early religious leaders wanted control over the people, so putting themselves as the issuers of the very laws everyone already obeyed obviously provided yet another means of keeping people in submission. But even if they had not made those rules "official", they would still have been followed, and still enforced.

It's a natural effect, in order for any society to grow above a certain level you need for the people to respect each other's and society's needs, and at a further level you'll need to enforce those rules. But these basic rules would still always originally be self-imposed, even unspoken.

Quote from: Lieron
And the swim thin, you expect to get wet though, right? You dont jump in expecting to to be dry after hopping out. Same thing applies, people expect that by doing good things and not bad things they will get rewarded and not punished.

While I hear the Lord Messiah was allegedly very capable in the use of effective metaphors, you, my friend, is not. This is quite possibly the worst attempted approach of a metaphor I have ever seen; either you completely misunderstood it, or more likely it was none too comforting so you attempted to re-shape it into something which supported your point. Which is less. Pointless, that is. Namely, the original (most prominent) weakness of your argument is still there: that you widely generalize things you seem to just think up as you go.

Very tired, with much apologizings to any intellectual readers for any spelling errors as a result of this.

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« Reply #11 on: 2006-05-01 02:42:42 »
Quote from: L. Spiro
And as I was just discussing with my boss the night before, religion is by far the worst, stupidest thing man-kind has ever invented.

That statement invigorates many questions.

Perhaps mankind was not the original "inventor"?
What if God really does exist and earth is simply a "test" of our faith?
Can you prove that God doesn't exist?
If God does exist, and you die, what would you think?

Believe what you want, I suppose the only way this debate will end is when we die and we'll all learn the truth: Either we cease to exist and lose consiousness forever or we continue to exist in consience, simply without our bodies.

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« Reply #12 on: 2006-05-01 02:46:46 »
Quote
Can you prove that God doesn't exist?

*Sigh*, can you prove that he does?

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« Reply #13 on: 2006-05-01 03:09:17 »
Dinosaur fossils = bible was wrong 0.o

Figured I might as well say that my original comment was kind of meant to start an arguement.. I love arguing religion too mcuh that Ill start talking to the peopel that yell out "God is Coming" or w/e on the street. Usually when I say the kind of thin gin my first post though, they stop talkign and walk off.

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« Reply #14 on: 2006-05-01 03:17:54 »
People believe what you want, be it creation or evolotion god or no god but one thing I will say is that the reason people don't believe in god is because they don't have faith, some people have it some don't, myself I don't but I swear if god popped in my room and said believe in me, I would become a nun (and I am a guy)

For certain people to believe in something they have to see it for themselves they can't just trust something that is in a book which is 2000 odd years old.  

Would earth be such a terrible place if god was real, I think not he would never let it get half this bad, basicaly mankind needs a sign or a miracle to convince the half that are agnostic/atheist to convert them but I also think religon is old fashoined and was used in the middle/dark ages to keep peasants in check, I think we have become to sophisticated for the bible/koran etc...

I also strongly disagree with the churches view on homosexuals as I do not see them as two of the same sex kissing, I see them as two people who love and trust eachother, maybe being brought up around them gave me this outlook but untill the church accepts them they will be cutting out a heavy percentage of a countries population, who would be christians but feel persecuted so they become atheiest/agnostic etc...

I don't know if you people agree, you don't have to, its my opinion.
(God I am tired its 5:16am in South Africa where I live!)

Sad Jari

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« Reply #15 on: 2006-05-01 03:39:25 »
Quote from: RPGillespie
Can you prove that God doesn't exist?

Are you sure that the burden of proof is on the atheist's/agnostic's side?

You know, I saw a pink, three legged, one eyed, Boing-Boing Squirrel yesterday. Can you prove that such thing does not exist? :wink:

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« Reply #16 on: 2006-05-01 03:49:32 »
Sad Jari, Im suprised you are not critising me? :P  (Well I guess miracles, do happen :wink: )

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« Reply #17 on: 2006-05-01 03:56:22 »
Quote from: Lieron
Dinosaur fossils = bible was wrong 0.o

Why is that? Genesis states that God "prepared the earth" for us in 6 days. Perhaps he simply created dinosaurs so we could later have oil?

Quote from: Sad Jari
You know, I saw a pink, three legged, one eyed, Boing-Boing Squirrel yesterday. Can you prove that such thing does not exist?

No I can not, however, since you are an eyewitness, you can prove that it exists and I can  go on faith. According to the bible, the definition of faith is:

Quote from: An ancient prophet
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.


That must've been one heck of a sight  :).

odo324

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« Reply #18 on: 2006-05-01 04:20:09 »
Good movie! I don’t see how it could offend anyone other then the most uptight religious types...

Quote
Dinosaur fossils = bible was wrong 0.o
They are mentioned in Gen 1:24. However, traditionalists refuse to admit such obvious truths and instead preach lies to fill in the holes of traditional logic. IMO, much of the bible has been mutilated over the centuries, due to individuals who wished to make history. Bastards...

Quote
*Sigh*, can you prove that he does?
    Why would it matter? People will believe whatever they want and the only thing humanity will ever do about it is fight.

I think the Tachikomas explained it best.
Quote
And you know that ‘existence of God’ thing that I had trouble understanding before? I think I’m starting to understand it now.

Maybe, just maybe, it’s a concept that’s similar to a zero in mathematics. In other words, it’s a symbol that denies the absence of meaning, the meaning that’s necessitated by the delineation of one system from another. In analog, that’s God. In digital, it’s zero.

Also, our basic construction is digital, right? So for the time being, no matter how much data we accumulate, we’ll never have a Ghost. But analog-based people like you, Mr. Batou, no matter how many digital components you add through cyberization or prosthetics, your Ghost will never be damaged. Plus, you can even die ‘cause you’ve got a Ghost. You’re so lucky. Tell me, what’s it feel like to have a Ghost?

    -- Tachikoma, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (Epo 15 / Time of the Machines – MACHINES DÉSIRANTES)[/list]

    Edit: Fixed a couple of formating mistakes..
    « Last Edit: 2006-05-08 19:26:00 by odo324 »

    L. Spiro

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    « Reply #19 on: 2006-05-01 07:33:32 »
    Quote from: RPGillespie

    That statement invigorates many questions.

    Perhaps mankind was not the original "inventor"?
    What if God really does exist and earth is simply a "test" of our faith?
    Can you prove that God doesn't exist?
    If God does exist, and you die, what would you think?
    And your answer exemplifies immaculately the mindset of religious people.
    It’s not about concrete facts that can be observed; it’s only about the “what if”.
    Ironically, religious people can’t handle it when these games are played on them.
    Perhaps mankind was the original inventor?
    What if God doesn’t exist and Earth is simply a rock floating around the sun?
    Can you prove that God exists?
    If God doesn’t exist, and you die, what would you think, after wasting your whole life on him?

    Why do your questions hold more weight than mine?  Oh!  Because you have the Bible, right?
    But the Bible only has meaning to those who chose to believe it.
    So, then, doesn’t that mean you’re only “right” because you chose to believe you are “right”?

    But hark!  How many religions are there?  And aren’t they all “right” by similar logic?
    So if you’re right, then they are wrong, right?  But why would you be more right than they are?
    Why are you special?  Their books say their Gods are the only Gods.
    Doesn’t that mean you’re wrong?  Clearly they are the ones who are right, right?
    But wait, they can’t all be right, or else you would be right too.
    Now all that’s left is for one egotistical religion to proclaim that it is correct and all others are wrong, or for all of them to agree they are all wrong.





    Quote from: RPGillespie

    Believe what you want, I suppose the only way this debate will end is when we die and we'll all learn the truth: Either we cease to exist and lose consiousness forever or we continue to exist in consience, simply without our bodies.
    Some also believe they will be reborn after they die, but the only thing anyone knows is that you do get at least one life, and it’s this one right here.
    So living this actual factual proved-to-be life that you have right now for the sake of an imaginary skeptical hope-it’s-there life you think you’re going to have (including “life in Heaven”) kind of defeats the purpose of living at all, don’t you think?



    What you have is your imagination.
    It is easy for you to buy into the things people told you as a child while your mind was still vulnerable to brainwashing (not that it isn’t now).
    And using a rebuttal such as, “If God does exist, and you die, what would you think?”, is one of the most traitorous things you can do to your religion.
    I’ll let you figure out why.




    Quote from: RPGillespie
    Perhaps he simply created dinosaurs so we could later have oil?
    Or perhaps the Bible is wrong, the Earth wasn’t created in 6 days, and dinosaurs ruled for many many centuries before “man” was even a sperm in a scrotum.
    A religious person can only raise questions whose only compulsion for substantiation is an assumed belief in the Bible.
    Why don’t you (all religious people) try to pose questions that actually have substance, or admit that your own questions, when asked back at you, cancel your questions out 100%?



    Quote from: RPGillespie
    …you can prove that it exists and I can go on faith.

    No, he can’t prove it, but you may still go on faith, because you also can’t prove he didn’t see it.
    That’s the whole foundation of religion in a nutshell.
    And you missed it.

    You think religions would last if they could be proved (and I mean blatantly) wrong?
    Religions are tricky bastards.
    They are specifically designed to be so abstract that they can never actually be proved wrong.
    Why don’t you read your own Bible, and Bibles from other religions, with this in mind, and try looking for all the ways they use abstractions to obscure their “facts”?


    And don’t even think about going off on how history books aren’t more substantiated than the Bible simply because I didn’t see the historical events myself.
    The things I see today align quite well with most of the teachings in history books.
    I can see landmarks, buildings, geological structures, etc., that fit historical descriptions quite well, unlike with anything that is said to have occurred in the Bible, particularly the great flood.
    Even history books know when to admit to things they simply can’t explain, such as Stonehenge.

    Quite amazing that ancient humans literally knew everything, from how the planet was created to its flat shape.
    I guess humans have really just been getting dumber over the last centuries, huh?


    L. Spiro

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    « Reply #20 on: 2006-05-01 09:26:27 »
    Quote from: Thrashamatrix
    People believe what you want, be it creation or evolotion god or no god but one thing I will say is that the reason people don't believe in god is because they don't have faith, some people have it some don't, myself I don't but I swear if god popped in my room and said believe in me, I would become a nun (and I am a guy)


    That's logic. If God were to appear to everyone on the boards when we log in and tell us that we are sinners and shut down our monitors with mere willpower, heck we'd be a Christian FF-Related forum in mere hours. (And we'd all start praying devotedly for the Q-Gears project to be finished...)
    However the point your making is exactly that what religion is all about. Like L. Spiro said it's believing in something you cannot see and can only hope there is. I have lots of discussions on this with a Christian friend of mine, and he states that God could easily show himself to all beings and make them obey him. However, he does not want that because then his followers wouldn't love him. They'd worship him out of  fear not faith. Therefore he doesn't show himself but he wants you to trust him. I disagree with him on this matter. He does what many religious people do, reason in circles and pre-assume that God exists.

    I've come up with a little theory of my own on Christianity. There is an explanation for everything. In Christianity there are only three things you need:

    1. God's Love
    2. Satan
    3. Wonders

    All the good in the world is God's doing out of love for his children. All the bad and wrong things are either punishment from God or the work of Satan. And everything we can't explain: Wonders. (Please feel free to attack me on this one.)

    I also believe religion was invented by man for several reasons:

    - The explaining of the unknown -- many of today's great religions were started quite some time ago. The world's leading one's: Christianity more than 2000 years ago, Islam 1400 years ago. People back then simply couldn't understand why certain things happened. The couldn't re-create the events themself, thus it had to be a greater power.
    - Power. Very important. Religion has throughout the centuries been used as an instrument for power by many, many rulers. Both high church officials as well as worldy emperors. Religion was a binding factor and a very effective way of getting people to do your bidding. Important figures merely had to announce their decision was one of God and millions of people blindy obeyed.
    - Resistance. Religion has also been used as a means of fighting the established government. Think Luther, Calvin. Many of the princes in the Holy Roman Empire (that's the same territory that we now today call Germany) used turning to protestantism as a way of legally disobeying their catholic emperor. (I'll spare you the precise dates)
    - Money. To speak with South Park: "What's better than having people believe you? Having them pay your for it!". The church has always, always been rich. Both the christian as well as islamic "churches" were (and still are) a very wealthy establishment. During the Middle-Ages many bishops, cardinals and even ordinary priets had vast amounts of money, originally intended for the church.

    I also have to disagree with L. Spiro on the statement that religion has to be one of the stupidest things man ever invented. Not at all, it actually is one the smartest things ever invented. An easy, cheap and fast way of having people do your bidding and paying you for it. Ofcourse nowadays things are different from the Middle-Ages, however take a look at this site: Clicky

    Take a look at the numbers and be astounded. Well you probably knew, but still.

    Religion has done more harm in this world than anything else. An interesting thing to do is to create a small list of the greater conflicts and wars in the world from the last, say, 50 years, and check for each one of them if and how religion was involved. You'll be amazed.

    Just to point out one more thing. I also think religion can be a beautiful thing. To be so sure, to have something eternal and vastly powerful to hold on to, to experience that amount of love, it must be wonderful...

    I'm just to much of a critic I guess...

    Thrashamatrix

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    « Reply #21 on: 2006-05-01 14:51:38 »
    Just an idea, why doesn't someone change the subject it is more of a "Why are we here?" topic, methinks :P

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    « Reply #22 on: 2006-05-01 15:22:47 »
    Quote from: L. Spiro
    Actually it is pretty accurate.

    And as I was just discussing with my boss the night before, religion is by far the worst, stupidest thing man-kind has ever invented.

    I find it quite amazing that even today, when mankind is more intelligent than it has ever been, so many people still mindlessly follow some religion or another like a bunch of clueless zombies, blindly following the teachings of their parents.  No need for proof or substantiation; just allow yourself to be brainwashed and you’ll have bliss from then forth.


    We also had a deep discussion regarding those imaginary lines in the dirt.
    I questioned whether the lines would ever have been drawn if mankind was as advanced then as we are now.
    Long ago, mankind needed explanations for things they didn’t understand.
    No congregation of humanity was different at that time; they were all seeking answers, and thus multiple religions were born.
    To each group of humans, it seems the only answer for the unexplainable was to create some type of “God” in their own images who was responsible for everything they did not understand.
    Thus it is very clear that if we were as advanced then as we are now, religion would never have been invented.

    But the lines?
    The lines mark more than just personal differences.  They mark greed.
    Nearly every line people draw in the dirt was originally out of conquest.
    Long long ago that was all that was on mankind’s mind.
    Nobody stops to consider this.
    Nobody stops to consider the idea that mankind had the wrong mindset back when they were drawing all these lines, and that 90% of all these lines need to be redrawn with actual purposes, or just eliminated.
    Mankind is suffering today because of the unnatural way lines were drawn long long ago, and now the damage done is too great to reverse.
    Because of the way the lines were drawn the first time, people have too much of a hardcoded mindset that that is how it should be and they just take it for granted, assuming the lines are the end-all-be-all definitive measurement of who is who.
    Places such as Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel, and Niger are now completely lost in this concept.
    Many of them are groups of people inside the same borders who drew yet more lines that aren’t on the maps.

    It never occurred to them that without the lines and without religion, all those people around them are just…

    …people.


    L. Spiro


    Some people would find that offensive i dont belive in religions i like to belive in Evolution is what created us all

    Sad Jari

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    « Reply #23 on: 2006-05-01 15:36:13 »
    Quote from: AOD
    Some people would find that offensive, i dont.

    Ok.

    Quote from: AOD
    Belive in religions.

    I would rather not.

    Quote from: AOD
    I like to belive in Evolution is what created us all.

    Wait, we were created because you like to believe in evolution? Damn.

    And for crying out loud, why did you quote Spiro's entire post?

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    « Reply #24 on: 2006-05-08 20:31:47 »
    Quote from: Thrashamatrix
    ...why doesn't someone change the subject it is more of a "Why are we here?" topic...
    :lol: And you used the original subject because.... ?

    Quote from: Emerald Weapon
    All the good in the world is God's doing out of love for his children. All the bad and wrong things are either punishment from God or the work of Satan. And everything we can't explain: Wonders.
    Well, I can certainly understand how you came to that conclusion. :|
    God is good, Satin is bad, and Unknowns are wonders created by God... Bla, bla, bla... IMO, it's a pretty normal & yet typical view at Christianity. The scary thing is the amount of Christians actually believe that to the letter!

    Quote from: Emerald Weapon
    An easy, cheap and fast way of having people do your bidding and paying you for it.
    How could this view include Christianity's origins? It's true, through out history many people have used any popular religion to promote there own personal agenda. However, although it's a funny thought, who would start a religion for the sole purpose of generating money centuries later? If anything, Christianity must have been first used to promote rules and order amongst ancient civilization (aka the early tribes of Israel, depending what your views are). I would be intrested in hearing some examples, tho.

    Quote from: Emerald Weapon
    Religion has done more harm in this world than anything else.
    Yet you stated earlier in your post that you 'disagree with L. Spiro on the statement that religion has to be one of the stupidest things man ever invented'. So Ur indirectly showing support for it. :-P

    Quote from: Sad Jari
    why did you quote Spiro's entire post
    To lazy to "cut-the-fat". Hmm, must be a programmer... We're a lazy bunch, for sure.

    Quote from: L. Sprio
    ...mankind had the wrong mindset back when they were drawing all these lines...
    Even today, drawling lines is the easiest solution to comprehend. That's why we have all sorts of countries. Drawing from your example, the separation of countries are effectively imaginary lines. So the question in this example becomes: Why do we have separate countries? Because every group has their own opinion. Religion is just one example of this phenomenon. In this sense, governments are no different. Whether religion is involved or not, there will always be imaginary lines in the sand. (I must say, that is quite an interesting concept tho.)


    Note: Sorry I don't touch on any other religions. Christianity is the only one I have ever actively educated myself in.