Author Topic: Ripping Model rule discussion (closed)  (Read 27438 times)

halkun

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Ripping Model rule discussion (closed)
« on: 2009-07-31 20:22:36 »
With the invention of Aali's new graphic driver that adds stability and extendability to the PC versions of Final Fantasy, I've begun to see some projects that are not sitting well with me. This post is to explain a new rule and the reason behind it. Hopefully, you guys can understand where I'm coming from. If you don't understand,  well, I'm sorry, but this is how it's going to be.

1) The discussion of ripping models from other games and putting them in to Final Fantasy is no longer allowed.

There are several reasons why this is. I've decided to take a few hours out of my life to explain it to you all. If this disappoints you, I hope that I can explain it for you so that you will get where I'm coming from. If this angers you, were I suggest you wipe the nerd-rage tears from you eyes and complain to someone else. I will not be tolerant to whining. There are many other forums you can go to.

Here is the reason.

There have been several projects that have been shut gown by Square in recent years. The most famous is the Chrono Resurrection, however, what you may not know is a large portion of Chrono Compendium was also shut down. Not only did the shut down a patch project, but also killed the tech related forums and discussion on how to reverse engineer and Chrono game. I was a member of the reversing team for Chrono Cross, and now the talk of simple data formats are forbidden.

2) I am forbidding the discussion of ripping models from PSP games.
 his includes all GMO related discussions. The reason why is this; To get the data in the first place requires a good deal of piracy. This includes modding Sony's firmware on a PSP to have access to the UMD drive, (a "reasonable form of copy protection" per the DMCA.) or downloading an ISO from a torrent. Both are illegal to do in the U.S. (Where I live).

Keep in mind I am also guilty of this and will not be doing this anymore.

3) Also, the discussion of reinsertion of custom game models/backgrounds are going to be strongly curtailed.
It will not be banned, but if your mod requires taking from other things not yours, you may be asked to cut it out. For now, I'm allowing the cosmetic upgrade of existing assets, for example, resolution, and texture updates. Also the recreation of higher resolution art/models are getting a pass.

Changes of "kernel.bin" are also exempt for now because, as a tool, it offers wonderful insight into the internal workings of the game.

Basically it's this; If you made it yourself to help improve the image of an already existing Final Fantasy asset, you get a pass, if you are rehashing work that is not yours, you will be asked to very politely adjust what you are doing.

I am not ruling on music mods for now. Square seems to give it a pass, so I will too.

These rules are subject to change.

Enforcement will be "soft" at first so that everyone has a chance to get used to the new rules. However, over time, expect me to become more active in the enforcement.


This thread will remained open for the discussion of the policy. This is just a rough work, but I decided to get it out as soon as possible so we could define good community standards. If you become disruptive, you will be "disemvoweled". I leave that as an exercise to the reader to understand what that means.
« Last Edit: 2009-08-02 19:30:55 by halkun »

Makubex (Mendelevium)

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So Timu Simisu's project is okay?

halkun

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So Timu Simisu's project is okay?

For now, as it is his own work, and very much a community effort, it stays.

BlitzNCS

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damn, i gotta learn to model for real now, lol.

ultima espio

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Sounds like a good idea actually. Makes people learn to model properly, like myself :-P

Matt2Tees

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So Timu Simisu's project is okay?

For now, as it is his own work, and very much a community effort, it stays.

Lol, thats good to hear, the community is looking forward to the release

halkun

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damn, i gotta learn to model for real now, lol.

This is the attitude I want to see :)

Makubex (Mendelevium)

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Hahah.
I don't like porting from other games.. i tried it... you don't get the same satisfaction.. unless you see a model you made yourself running around..
xD

AlbusJC

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then, the slayersnext's weapons are ok too, right??

What about the other proyects like "phoenix rejuvenation" or a hardcore mode?? is there any problem with them??

obesebear

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While I very much like the idea of porting over models for use in game (it's quicker than waiting on the awesome custom models), whatever you have to do to keep these forums running is A.O.K in my book.

Also, I appreciate the lengthy explanation as to why.

Lionfist

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Quite stupid, for TALKING and showing SCREENS of it isn't harmful, and won't do anything to this forum and their ppl.
Releasing is something otherwhise, but for THIS we got already rules since ages.
So
this is just stupid and puts a stone in the way of newcomers + modding projects.

Tekkie.X

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Quite stupid, for TALKING and showing SCREENS of it isn't harmful, and won't do anything to this forum and their ppl.
Releasing is something otherwhise, but for THIS we got already rules since ages.
So
this is just stupid and puts a stone in the way of newcomers + modding projects.

It still brings up questions of legality, since they are still breaking the EULA.

Square probably won't mind us all putting stuff into to FFVII, it's within acceptable limits, but hacking stuff out of their other games to do means passing content to people who possibly don't own the game the models were taken from.

Lionfist

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Quite stupid, for TALKING and showing SCREENS of it isn't harmful, and won't do anything to this forum and their ppl.
Releasing is something otherwhise, but for THIS we got already rules since ages.
So
this is just stupid and puts a stone in the way of newcomers + modding projects.

It still brings up questions of legality, since they are still breaking the EULA.

Square probably won't mind us all putting stuff into to FFVII, it's within acceptable limits, but hacking stuff out of their other games to do means passing content to people who possibly don't own the game the models were taken from.

Nop', not even for that user that question would exist.
We are a forum board, not a hacker site.

I'm not sure about Square, since they joined with enix they are kinda careful with their copyright stuff, but we had all this sh** before, it only depends on releasing it on here or not.
The Answer is "no".
Talking about it would still be "yes".

(otherwhise we would even need to delete some stickied threads and tutorials how to rip them lmao)

obesebear

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This isn't a hacker site?  C'mon get real.  You are only here because of the hacking/programming others have done that allow the improvement of whatever Final Fantasy you like most.  Not because you enjoy the polite conversation.  There is almost nothing that can't be done to FF7 and soon FF8, same as the chrono compendium.

Showing only screens will bring about new posters begging to know how.
It will be OK I promise you.  I had no idea how to do any of this stuff..but I learned, and as you yourself said, there is a whole stickied thread on how to do it.  If you want the models that bad, get to workin'

seifertemp

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Why has this suddenly arrived now?  This forum seems to have survived for some time without any new rule?  Just saying.

Also, it is not illegal to show links of something...  same way as torrent sites in many countries are protected by the fact the data is not stored in a torrent file.


If we want to outlaw 1 project for being against rules, you may as well close the forum because every mod here from my translation project to ripping any model or modifying any game is somewhat illegal under the limbo like law and that is dependant on many factors, not least which country you are in.
« Last Edit: 2009-07-31 23:44:04 by seifertemp »

Lionfist

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This isn't a hacker site?  C'mon get real.  You are only here because of the hacking/programming others have done that allow the improvement of whatever Final Fantasy you like most.  Not because you enjoy the polite conversation.  There is almost nothing that can't be done to FF7 and soon FF8, same as the chrono compendium.

Showing only screens will bring about new posters begging to know how.
It will be OK I promise you.  I had no idea how to do any of this stuff..but I learned, and as you yourself said, there is a whole stickied thread on how to do it.  If you want the models that bad, get to workin'


YOU get real silly. I think you never were on a real "hacker" site.
And I'm not someone who's begging, for I'm lurking qhimm since ages.  :wink:
And still ,screens+talking do NO harm, in no way, with no copyright problems.
I know what I'm talking about.
And yes,there's a whole stickied thread, but you should've read better: it needs to be taken down with the new rule.
So,
get some glasses, read exactly what i wrote, and see there is a NORMAL conversation in there.


-
And i agree with seifer there.
« Last Edit: 2009-07-31 23:50:04 by Lionfist »

seifertemp

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I am just pointing out the rather flawed thinking here and the nature of it, of course I moved my projects to my own forum and will release them in  multiple places inc torrent.  I have no fear of the bogey man.  

But even so, I will respect the rules here but I can't say I agree with this at all.  Luckily I don't rip models anyway :)

The other thing I have always found laughable is the near frenzy online of people running about telling people they can't even discuss the said item.  P2P for example, is not even strictkly illegal and discussing your intentions to do something ona  forum is not illegal either.

There seems to be this sword of doom mentality that we have a firing squad thought police ready at every and all forums/.  I will believe it when I see it and so far I have never seen it.  The real thought police seem to be the mods and some members (wasn't aimed at this forum btw, was in general) who through fear, go much further than they have to.

That is my opinion, as I said, on a forum you obey the rules, even if they are rather dubious.
« Last Edit: 2009-08-01 00:48:44 by seifertemp »

Jari

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The real thought police seem to be the mods and some members who through fear, go much further than they have to.

Last time wasn't enough for you? :-D

halkun, please split if he wants another go at it.

Prince Lex

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I thought these were the rules anyway? I was wondering why tools were being developed to rip from newer games on here. I was under the impression that these rules were already in place and it was just a lack of mod presence that allowed it to happen.

I may just be thinking this but back before I joined (say 2004 - 2005) would these discussions have been allowed at the time? I remember it being a bit more strict then.

halkun

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Quite stupid, for TALKING and showing SCREENS of it isn't harmful, and won't do anything to this forum and their ppl.
Releasing is something otherwhise, but for THIS we got already rules since ages.
So
this is just stupid and puts a stone in the way of newcomers + modding projects.

This forum was originally for tweaking the FF7PC game to get the game working. It was never a very good engine. The modding aspect came later, and as technology grew, easier. Here is something you may not get...

Modding games has always been looked at with ire to Japanese. To them it's seen as deliberately destroying their art and artistic vision. Modding is largely a western thing, and is somewhat culturally incompatible with Japanese content creators. I'm just asking you guys to respect that idea.

halkun

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Quite stupid, for TALKING and showing SCREENS of it isn't harmful, and won't do anything to this forum and their ppl.
Releasing is something otherwhise, but for THIS we got already rules since ages.
So
this is just stupid and puts a stone in the way of newcomers + modding projects.

It still brings up questions of legality, since they are still breaking the EULA.

Square probably won't mind us all putting stuff into to FFVII, it's within acceptable limits, but hacking stuff out of their other games to do means passing content to people who possibly don't own the game the models were taken from.

Actually, there isn't an EULA in the PC version of FF7. Irregardless, this does not give you free reign to stomp all over other's IP.

The Seer of Shadows

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This forum was originally for tweaking the FF7PC game to get the game working. It was never a very good engine. The modding aspect came later, and as technology grew, easier. Here is something you may not get...

Modding games has always been looked at with ire to Japanese. To them it's seen as deliberately destroying their art and artistic vision. Modding is largely a western thing, and is somewhat culturally incompatible with Japanese content creators. I'm just asking you guys to respect that idea.

I, for one, think that's fair enough :-)

Kudistos Megistos

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This forum was originally for tweaking the FF7PC game to get the game working. It was never a very good engine. The modding aspect came later, and as technology grew, easier.

The pedant in me feels the need to point out that this forum (singular) is "game tweaking". Surely that's pretty much interchangeable with modding?

Here is something you may not get...

Modding games has always been looked at with ire to Japanese. To them it's seen as deliberately destroying their art and artistic vision. Modding is largely a western thing, and is somewhat culturally incompatible with Japanese content creators. I'm just asking you guys to respect that idea.

Are you making this argument to point out that Japanese companies are more likely to send out C&Ds to game modders than Western ones are? If not then I must ask (and please don't take this the wrong way), why should we care?

By the way, it seems that your choice of things to ban is quite arbitrary. For example, you allow us to talk about fiddling the music as much as we like because "Square seems to give it a pass" (even though I'm pretty sure that remixing and then giving away music without the original composer's permission is illegal), but forbid other things that are also illegal and given a pass. Actually, your choices might not be arbitrary, but I don't think they're consistent. Pretty much everything that is done here is illegal, n'est-ce pas? Wouldn't "the recreation of higher resolution art/models" and making a "cosmetic upgrade of existing assets" count as derivative works?

I can't help but wonder whether your decisions about what to ban and what to allow are based more on your personal feelings towards certain kinds of mods than on either the law or the chances that such mods will incur the wrath of Square. There certainly seems to be a theme; mods that don't require much work (i.e. ripping models) are banned but ones that are just as illegal but require more hard work from the modder are allowed.

I do hope that this post won't be seem as disruptive and that I won't be "disemvoweled", whtvr tht wrd mns.

seifertemp

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Kudistos

Have to say I agree with you.  I ahve been in discussion with 2 people who came to me about this new topic and whilst I told them it isn't our forum, I did mention the point that it seems to be a  personal attack on certain mods rather than any legality.

let us be clear, modding the game at all , changing ANY part of the exe or changing ANY part of the program files is illegal by its very nature. (I always find topics lambasting the copy of games as illegal ironic given qhimms is not exactly a picture of legality itself)

The point is, that these things are generally overlooked for older games such as FF7 and I personally would wait until a representative from square came here and told us not to do it.  This is very unliekly to happen and it is further unlikely that they would prosecute any of the moderators or admins of the forum for their members posting links.

The above rules seem to pick and choose what they will allow or disallow, this one stands out to me>

Changes of "kernel.bin" are also exempt for now because, as a tool, it offers wonderful insight into the internal workings of the game.

That seems to suggest "oh well sod it, it is a great mod so don't care"

Any case, I am just making the case that I personally don't like the new rule or where it seems to be heading, but if that is the rule it is the rule.  
« Last Edit: 2009-08-01 03:26:07 by seifertemp »

seifertemp

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isn't as illegal as

To be fair, this isn't how law works....there isn't degrees of "wrong" behaviour.  Personal reasons for not liking a mod are fine and dandy, but not excuses for stopping them.