Author Topic: Entertaining an idea  (Read 25917 times)

Senti

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Entertaining an idea
« on: 2010-08-31 18:31:00 »
Been entertaining the idea of using the UDK (Unreal Development Kit) to recreate FFVII in a fully 3D FPS/RPG style like Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core. If this project was to kick off, it would require checking for original FFVII installation files, etc. to run. In other words, you don't have a valid install of the original FFVII, it won't even install with this. What I have in my head is vision of full custom models of everything in the game, and recreating the entire game as it originally is, with a new field/world map system and a new open battle system (where you actually do battle in the field/world maps instead of battle maps), and with a true "real time" feel to it, not turn based (like DoC).

Before I take this project any further then strictly being in my head, I would like to get some feedback from the rest of you here on what you'd think about such a project, and if I it does go beyond just an idea, if any of the many talented modelers/graphic artists/Programers here would be willing to hop on board.

Like I said, it's currently purely a concept idea, looking for some feedback.

Covarr

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #1 on: 2010-08-31 18:50:15 »
I like everything about this idea except for replacing the turn-based battle system with something realtime; it would be better if it played like the original.

The problem is, I doubt many people here would be interested in working on something so large in scale. In many ways, Team Avalanche's overhaul is much easier because it's more recreating existing resources. Not only that, but most of the talented folks around here are already devoting a tremendous amount of time to TA's project.

And, if it's this much improved from the original game, S-E's lawyers are more likely to go after us for it.

Shankifer

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #2 on: 2010-08-31 18:52:46 »
Not going to agree with the whole "FF7 must be installed" deal with you on this. Considering it will be completely made from scratch, I think all the rights other than the ideas for the game belong to you, and unless it is a moral thing for you, you should feel free to distribute it freely. Just a thought.

For the project in general though, I absolutely love the idea!
In fact you inspired me to pick up an old project in Morrowind for creating a FF7 Mod lol.

I simply cannot stop thinking about how epic your project is though, even in the idea. Imagining it is making my brain melt.

I feel like I want to say more lol, but I just don't know exactly how to put it :P

I'll wait for some response from you, then see what I have lol.

Definitely very interested though. I'm game for helping out too, where i can.

Gromtar

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #3 on: 2010-08-31 19:10:25 »
Hm,

the idee is nice but i think, if your going to do this dont use the Unreal def kit.
What i mean is, Epic Games is a ("konkurrent" sorry dont know the correct english word) rival to Square Enix so it wont be a good idee to use this  ;)

Quote from: Shankifer
Not going to agree with the whole "FF7 must be installed" deal with you on this. Considering it will be completely made from scratch, I think all the rights other than the ideas for the game belong to you, and unless it is a moral thing for you, you should feel free to distribute it freely. Just a thought.

I think it is a good Idee to check if the orginal is installed or a ff7 psx cd is in the cd drive, even if the sources are not from Square Enix/Eidos but the rights for the name "Final Fantasy7 etc." lies with them.
But if you make sure Square Enix/Eidos will have their share with this, you minimize the risk to get sued.

Shankifer

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #4 on: 2010-08-31 19:31:32 »
Chance of getting sued is pretty low atm considering Eidos has dropped FF7 off their radar, and Sqeenix is releasing Final Fantasy 14. The legal issue would only lie in the name as well. As long as all the Models were NOT created by Sqeenix (or any other game/company for that matter, meaning he could use all TA's models if he asked nicely and offered credit MAYBE ;D) in theory, the release does not need to have a checker.

If there are any Sqeenix illegal-work-hunters lurking these forums, please be sure to correct me if I'm wrong in what I say  ;D

The copyright law means that you can't take something that someone has made and use it. Like stealing, I can't break into a person's house and steal a painting. I could, however, create a replica of the painting myself. Same concept with the model thing.

Doing this project would be infringing on less (if any) copyright laws than Team Avalanche. Simply because they are modifying Final Fantasy Seven's actual game files.

You'd think Sqeenix would give Qhimm-forums a break considering we troubleshoot a game that they probably don't even troubleshoot anymore lol.

Bosola

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #5 on: 2010-08-31 19:33:23 »
Not going to agree with the whole "FF7 must be installed" deal with you on this. Considering it will be completely made from scratch, I think all the rights other than the ideas for the game belong to you, and unless it is a moral thing for you, you should feel free to distribute it freely. Just a thought.

No, no, no, no. You cannot adapt someone else's intellectual property and release it. Not even if you do so for free, create all the assets yourself and pet a kitten on the way. I can't circulate my own Simpsons novels, sell a fanmade Half Life episode or even use a ground-built 3d engine and my own assets as part of, let's say, a project called Chrono Resurrection. In fact, what we're doing in disassembling the code is barely legal already. Please don't jeopardize our work with incorrect copyright advice. This work would neither be transformative nor an acceptable 'derivative work'.

In fact, I'm dubious that adding a CD-check would be sufficient. You're still distributing something that could be adapted into a 'free' FF7 with a little hex editing. No-CD cracks are just a matter of tracing the assembler in a debugger, and unless the OP has some particularly nifty code obfuscation up his sleeve, I really don't think S-E will be too impressed.

Please be careful with this, Senti.

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #6 on: 2010-08-31 19:44:34 »
the idee is nice but i think, if your going to do this dont use the Unreal def kit.
What i mean is, Epic Games is a ("konkurrent" sorry dont know the correct english word) rival to Square Enix so it wont be a good idee to use this  ;)
Actually, that's not ture.
Epic has used this version of the engine for their in-house games Unreal Tournament 3, Gears of War, and an improved version for Gears of War 2. Due to aggressive licensing, this current iteration has garnered a great deal of support from several big licensees, including Atari, Activision, Capcom, Disney, Konami, Koei, 2K Games, Midway Games, THQ, Ubisoft, Sega, Sony, Electronic Arts, Square Enix, 3D Realms and more.
Square Enix has used the unreal engines to do some of their games.
Not going to agree with the whole "FF7 must be installed" deal with you on this. Considering it will be completely made from scratch, I think all the rights other than the ideas for the game belong to you, and unless it is a moral thing for you, you should feel free to distribute it freely. Just a thought.

This is to bypass any copyright BS, yes it would be using all custom models based on the original, but the story and likeness rights still belong to Square Enix, and could be considered copyright infringement. Requiring the original FFVII to be installed would make this considered a mod to the game.
I like everything about this idea except for replacing the turn-based battle system with something realtime; it would be better if it played like the original.
If it gets done how I envision it, it would be you controlling one of the characters at any given time with the others as backup with computer AI, but you can swap out which one you control and which ones are with you that the computer controls through a revamped PHS system. Dropping the turn based system would give it a much faster pace and also make the difficulty go up a bit I think. But again, it hasn't even gone beyond my head and anything is subject to change before it goes any further.
Not going to agree with the whole "FF7 must be installed" deal with you on this. Considering it will be completely made from scratch, I think all the rights other than the ideas for the game belong to you, and unless it is a moral thing for you, you should feel free to distribute it freely. Just a thought.

No, no, no, no. You cannot adapt someone else's intellectual property and release it. Not even if you do so for free, create all the assets yourself and pet a kitten on the way. I can't circulate my own Simpsons novels, sell a fanmade Half Life episode or even use a ground-built 3d engine and my own assets as part of, let's say, a project called Chrono Resurrection. In fact, what we're doing in disassembling the code is barely legal already. Please don't jeopardize our work with incorrect copyright advice. This work would neither be transformative nor an acceptable 'derivative work'.

In fact, I'm dubious that adding a CD-check would be sufficient. You're still distributing something that could be adapted into a 'free' FF7 with a little hex editing. No-CD cracks are just a matter of tracing the assembler in a debugger, and unless the OP has some particularly nifty code obfuscation up his sleeve, I really don't think S-E will be too impressed.

Please be careful with this, Senti.
Already thinking about that, hacks/cracks can be made for anything. Aali's drivers can be easily modified to bypass the no-cd check, as well as any other mods you find for FFVII. This idea of mine itself, the way I see it in my head, would be dependent on the original FFVII game to be installed and be labeled as a "Mod" or an unofficial "expansion pack" to the original, not a stand alone game, its hard to explain how I'm seeing it in my head, not to mention how it might be done, but it would not work without the original game in place. Not trying to bring down the suits on anyone, which is one of the reasons I'm looking for feedback on this.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-31 19:51:56 by Senti »

Bosola

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #7 on: 2010-08-31 19:53:00 »
Quote
Already thinking about that, hacks/cracks can be made for anything. Aali's drivers can be easily modified to bypass the no-cd check, as well as any other mods you find for FFVII.

Aali's drivers stay on the safe side, because they don't contain any S-E content. 'Content' doesn't include just digital assets produced by S-E employees, but script, story, concepts etc.

Quote
This idea of mine itself, the way I see it in my head, would be dependent on the original FFVII game to be installed and be labeled as a "Mod" or an unofficial "expansion pack" to the original, not a stand alone game, its hard to explain how I'm seeing it in my head, not to mention how it might be done, but it would not work without the original game in place. Not trying to bring down the suits on anyone, which is one of the reasons I'm looking for feedback on this.

I just can't see you circulating something that wouldn't include a self-contained unauthorized remake. I don't want to see you spend three years+ on this, only to get shut down on day four of release by a CnD. If you think companies like Sony and S-E don't pay attention to the efforts of 'little people' like us, go ask Halkun about the time Sony took him to court.

Stay safe.

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #8 on: 2010-08-31 20:02:29 »
I just can't see you circulating something that wouldn't include a self-contained unauthorized remake. I don't want to see you spend three years+ on this, only to get shut down on day four of release by a CnD. If you think companies like Sony and S-E don't pay attention to the efforts of 'little people' like us, go ask Halkun about the time Sony took him to court.

Stay safe.
I know all about it, I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to copyright laws and such, which is why, if it ever made it to development and a release, it would come out as a mod or unofficial expansion pack to the original and be dependant on the original being installed. If S-E wanted to they could shut down everything on here right now as everything done to mod the game requires reverse engineering their program, which is illegal to begin with. The same could be said with any modding project on the internet, as well as any porting of likenesses to other games (FFVII custom images ported to WC3 or any other game) is considered copyright infringement and can end up with a C&D. If it came down to it and your situation did happen, however, at least myself, and any other person working on it, would have the versions for ourselves to do as we please on the individual level.

Shankifer

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #9 on: 2010-08-31 20:09:55 »
From http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Quote
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Seems sufficient to me.

On a side-note, Senti, I would love to hear more about what your lists of wants and needs are for your project :D
« Last Edit: 2010-08-31 20:11:55 by Shankifer »

Covarr

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #10 on: 2010-08-31 20:17:02 »
Shankifer, I think you misunderstand. All that means is that Square Enix can't copyright the rules to the game. If we wanted to make a clone with the same battle system, they couldn't stop us. However, game data is copyrighted, as is the story, dialogue, characters, etc.

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #11 on: 2010-08-31 20:28:00 »
On a side-note, Senti, I would love to hear more about what your lists of wants and needs are for your project :D
Pretty much, everything. I can do a bit of everything myself, though I'm far from "skilled". I'm one of those "jack of all trades, master of none" type people who pick up things here and there and can do a touch of it all, but mainly I like to come up with ideas and possible solutions to problems. Which is the reason for the topic of the main post, it is merely an idea I'm entertaining currently, checking feedback and such before I proceed any further. There are also two other situations that could be done in relation to the release of this project should it reach completion.

1) Obtain a distribution license from S-E for FFVII likeness rights and story concept for free distribution.
Pros: Would completely bypass the copyright problems and allow the project to be distributed as a stand alone file.
Cons: None really, other then the fact that no one can profit off the distribution in any way short of asking for donations to keep any relevant distribution servers online.
(Yes, something very similar has been done with a commercial game)
Dare we say it? Free release of Mechwarrior4 cleared for launch

If you've been following the drama surrounding the free release of Mechwarrior4, than you would be aware that the initial announcement, made last summer, was a bit premature. After nearly a year since the announcement came, MekTek Studios is pleased to announce, that Microsoft Legal has given the all clear for the free release of Mechwarrior4. This hallmark movement by Microsoft Games couldn't come at a better time, as the Mechwarrior community is attempting a rebirth, amidst announcement of a Mechwarrior Reboot. Thank you Microsoft.

A few weeks ago we stuck our neck out and announced that our studio was struggling to see this release through to the end. We also released our MekPak 3.1, through our distribution and patching system MTX, which gave our developers an opportunity evaluate any unknown bugs. We're glad our announcement and release worked, and we have many to thank for raising awareness, as the release of Mechwarrior4 is now imminent.

Some of the people we'd like to thank, to name a few, are those reporting gaming news such as Joystiq, Bluesnews, BigDownload, Fragland, Gamespy, IGN, Shacknews, and Slashdot. We'd also like to thank all major gaming forums for keeping this topic in discussion and not letting people forget about the promise of a Mechwarrior free release. Of course, we'd like to thank our partners for pressing Microsoft to allow for the release of Mechwarrior to the community including Smith and Tinker, INC., Virtual World Entertainment, LLC., and Catalyst Game Labs. And finally we'd like to thank our community and the Mechwarrior fans for standing behind MekTek when things appeared to be at their worst. Thank you for your continued support. Please stay tuned for the release launch!


by Vam, Wednesday, 21 April 2010 14:48, Comments(0), read all
2) Submitting finished product to S-E as a free-lance "remake" for them to review/distribute at their leisure.
Pros: Again, bypasses the copyright problems. Possible "royalties" from the re-release, pending an agreement between remake developers and S-E.
Cons: Only S-E would be able to distribute it, and likely would charge for it.

Similar situations have also happened in the past, though none, to my knowledge, of a direct remake of a game. However it is certainly a feasible situation as it gives S-E a remake their fan base wants with them having to put out minimal effort.

But anyways, like I said, if I was to go ahead with it, I would need the assistance of coders/modelers/graphic artists, etc. (Which this site is not lacking any of those in the least.)
« Last Edit: 2010-08-31 20:30:00 by Senti »

Shankifer

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #12 on: 2010-08-31 20:43:49 »
Quote from:  U.S. Copyright
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it.

That says to me: Square cannot say "He took my idea!" or "He took my title!"

Quote from: § 106A. Rights of certain authors to attribution and integrity
(3) The rights described in paragraphs (1) and (2) of subsection (a) shall not apply to any reproduction, depiction, portrayal, or other use of a work in, upon, or in any connection with any item described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of the definition of “work of visual art” in section 101, and any such reproduction, depiction, portrayal, or other use of a work is not a destruction, distortion, mutilation, or other modification described in paragraph (3) of subsection (a).

This is saying basically, that any reproduction (not COPY) portrayal, or other use is not a desruction of a work of art as long as the work of art that is being depicted is a one of a kind. which is what it means by "(A) or (B) of the definition of “work of visual art” in section 101"

As for your ideas of going about it, using the first would be best if you wanted to just reassure yourself to not get hounded for it lol.


As for helping you on in the project, I would be happy to do simple work such as modeling simple things, making images to use for backgrounds. Developing simple textures (I've made a few for easy-modding games like fable, and Morrowind before, just fuzzy on the conversion thing and I would require UV Maps :P) like weapons, grounds, walls, and so on. I would also gladly help with any dialogue or event ideas. I really need to check out the program you're going to use though and see how difficult this would be. I think asking TA for some models would be an okay idea. They look good and they're already planning on distributing them freely in the release.

Happy to help however I can :P

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #13 on: 2010-08-31 20:51:13 »
UDK is free to use for non-commercial purposes now, and free to download through their site here. I also have 3ds max to do the modeling.

Shankifer

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #14 on: 2010-08-31 20:56:21 »
3ds WOO ^.^

from August - July I have access to Maya which I know pretty well. So I would be willing to do a couple simple monsters or something. but that's for another time. I'm gonna check out UDK. To help pull some ideas together it might always be a good idea to compile a list of things you want/need to do in this remake

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #15 on: 2010-08-31 21:06:05 »
To put it simply, everything.

 Would need to do full scale 3D, high-res models of every field map and the entire world map. Then of course there's the custom graphics for every thing (NPCS/spells/enemies/vehicles/etc.) in game, not to mention the animations for each and every one of them. And that rough guestimation of 3+ years before release would probably be an optimistic one, more realistically it'd probably be about 6+ years, depending on the number of others willing to assist and their relative skill levels. Doing it on my own would likely push it up to 20+ years. (Speaking of working in free time, of course.)

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #16 on: 2010-08-31 21:17:51 »
Quote from:  U.S. Copyright
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it.

That says to me: Square cannot say "He took my idea!" or "He took my title!"

It says to me that Squeenix will lose the legal case if you fight them hard enough, but they'll be able to bankrupt you with the costs of frivolous lawsuits. That's what happened with Bleem!; Sony didn't win any cases against them, but they put them out of business by suing them until they couldn't pay their fees. Squeenix are a bunch of arseholes when it comes to copyright, so they might do the same thing.

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #17 on: 2010-08-31 21:27:51 »
Like I said before, if it came down to a C&D, those who worked on it would have the project for themselves. Wouldn't fight it in court unless I had a good attorney on hand that would do it free of fees. Not to mention if it came to that, you could counter sue them based on harassment charges and mental anguish, you'd be surprised how much you can get from one of those cases, and it's an avenue that Bleem! never did explore, at the very least a counter suit for court costs/attorney fees is warranted in such a case, as filing suits against a person knowing you can't win but doing so in an attempt to bankrupt them via attorney/court costs is tantamount to thievery without the gain on their own sides.

See, I can play the arsehole game as well, there are many ways you can turn the tables on a company for suing you and winning.

But, that's beside the point, will "cross that bridge when we get there" as the old saying goes. In such an infantile stage as the idea is in, I'm not that concerned with the legalities of the project, so much as the feasibility of it, namely candidates on board, comments and suggestions, etc.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-31 21:30:07 by Senti »

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #18 on: 2010-08-31 22:01:52 »
 My post will be kind of harsh, but realistic. Assuming it's a fan project it's already doomed in the moment you posted it. Why? Couse it's just an idea and not even deeply thought, ideas die fast if people doesn't get paid for it or if they don't join seeing that it have arms and legs and is already started. Sure if you ever worked about any commercial product you can think somebody that just know a little bit about everything can be project leader, can start it or whatever. Fanmade stuff is light years far from that. If you don't show a skill in doing something yourself nobody will really give part of his life to make your dreams/visions come true. You don't give any work from self other than spending some time on google in excitement after you probably got excited with similar project with the difference it didn't had your dream story/characters etc.

 Modding a game is something that's on the edge of legality and all depends how company which have rights to it will look at the project. Idea of a completely new game, on different engine and what's worst based on FFVII isn't even modding anymore and more it hits value of Square brand, and most likely will be instantly considered by them as illegal nevermind protections you could use. There were similar projects when people taken characters/story from one thing and tried to make a remake at other game engine. Just look at Quake3A mod which started as DBZ mod, pretty soon, before even finishing their work, they needed to abandon all DBZ related stuff ending with something completely different.

 Using new graphic engine to show copyrighted characters is a NO-NO as it makes the company loosing money, shows people that they can wait for freeware instead of buying new original creations of company which owns copyright and even if you could make it somehow legal, they would put you down one way or another. Just going to the court with it would be nothing for them if they could gain by stopping you, your private budget would pretty much die taking off the project very fast soo think over it a few times before you get some more briliant ideas. In other words there are two things you must always consider whose toes you wanna stand on and how much you weight. In this case althrough company is big we can assume owners are japanese which makes their feet very small leaving those toes very sensitive and pretty much anything big enough will be a pain they'll kick off and make sure it doesn't return.

 You should surely read at least once this sticky topic:
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=8759.0
 If you think it's not your case couse your idea is something else, read again, and again untill you understand Halkun's words from this topic trully and understand that this idea shouldn't leave your head or at least leave it in other place as such project here would be risky for whole FFVII modding community.

 Don't get me wrong idea isn't stupid, but it's far from briliant as most people here thought about something like that at least once, but even optimist wouldn't start anything alike looking at some of examples Square shown in the past. If you really want/must learn it the hard way, feel free to try, just make sure you don't risk this modding community with your ambitions. In other words, I would politely ask you to do it somewhere else. >.>

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #19 on: 2010-08-31 22:40:01 »
My post will be kind of harsh, but realistic. Assuming it's a fan project it's already doomed in the moment you posted it. Why? Couse it's just an idea and not even deeply thought, ideas die fast if people doesn't get paid for it or if they don't join seeing that it have arms and legs and is already started. Sure if you ever worked about any commercial product you can think somebody that just know a little bit about everything can be project leader, can start it or whatever. Fanmade stuff is light years far from that. If you don't show a skill in doing something yourself nobody will really give part of his life to make your dreams/visions come true. You don't give any work from self other than spending some time on google in excitement after you probably got excited with similar project with the difference it didn't had your dream story/characters etc.
Didn't come up with it based on anything I saw anywhere else, a number of different things actually sparked the idea, number one being the amount of boredom due to, in my opinion, a lack of worthwhile games being released currently. There are several other reasons I thought about this to begin with, which I won't go into detail here.

Modding a game is something that's on the edge of legality and all depends how company which have rights to it will look at the project. Idea of a completely new game, on different engine and what's worst based on FFVII isn't even modding anymore and more it hits value of Square brand, and most likely will be instantly considered by them as illegal nevermind protections you could use. There were similar projects when people taken characters/story from one thing and tried to make a remake at other game engine. Just look at Quake3A mod which started as DBZ mod, pretty soon, before even finishing their work, they needed to abandon all DBZ related stuff ending with something completely different.
There are several games out there which have fan-made "mods" for other games and anime, in fact the DBZ community has countless recreations over several game engines, complete with custom models that recreate it in good quality. In fact, there is one game engine that I think would work perfectly, properly modified of course, with a DBZ theme. That would be the game engine used for the IronMan PC games.

Using new graphic engine to show copyrighted characters is a NO-NO as it makes the company loosing money, shows people that they can wait for freeware instead of buying new original creations of company which owns copyright and even if you could make it somehow legal, they would put you down one way or another. Just going to the court with it would be nothing for them if they could gain by stopping you, your private budget would pretty much die taking off the project very fast soo think over it a few times before you get some more briliant ideas. In other words there are two things you must always consider whose toes you wanna stand on and how much you weight. In this case althrough company is big we can assume owners are japanese which makes their feet very small leaving those toes very sensitive and pretty much anything big enough will be a pain they'll kick off and make sure it doesn't return.
Again, this has already been done with countless "mod" projects and custom models over various different platforms. S-E would lose no money as none of it is "official" in any way, and any remake they might do (even though they say they won't be doing any) would be, more then likely, different then the custom fan made models done.

You should surely read at least once this sticky topic:
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=8759.0
 If you think it's not your case couse your idea is something else, read again, and again untill you understand Halkun's words from this topic trully and understand that this idea shouldn't leave your head or at least leave it in other place as such project here would be risky for whole FFVII modding community.
That talks about the ripping of models and the use of "content not your own". In the case of this possible project, all materials used would be custom made, not ripped models. The only thing that would be directly "reused" from the original would be the story itself, retold in a different way. I've read that sticky several times, if you notice I'm not new to the forums, and before I registered I did "lurk" the forums for quite some time before I found a need to voice any of my own comments, I actually remember when that rule was put in place, and was done so because of the discussing of ripping Crisis Core models into Final Fantasy VII, which not only requires the hacking of the PSP, but also the deconstruction and reverse engineering of a new game engine created by S-E. As stated in that rule, the use of complete custom models based on the looks from other games is still allowed.
Don't get me wrong idea isn't stupid, but it's far from briliant as most people here thought about something like that at least once, but even optimist wouldn't start anything alike looking at some of examples Square shown in the past. If you really want/must learn it the hard way, feel free to try, just make sure you don't risk this modding community with your ambitions. In other words, I would politely ask you to do it somewhere else. >.>
I know that it is more then likely not the best idea for a game, the idea I had for a playstyle of this remake would be most aptly described as a TPS/RPG like Dirge of Cerberus was, but a bit more advanced in the options, allowing you the equipment and materia options available in the original (complete with summons) but in a real-time style. I, personally, think it would be awesome to play the FFVII game in such a playstyle, which is the reason for the idea. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for more then the issue of legalities.

As far as taking the discussion elsewhere, if the moderators think that my idea and the discussion of such in any way jeopardizes the rest of the operations here then they are free to give me their own C&D and delete the posts. Not trying to sound mean here, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and I respect everyone and their own opinions. The modding community is certainly one that can't afford to be naive about legalities, though what I'm envisioning wouldn't be any more dangerous then a combination of the Q-Gears and the new Avalanche Project (more specifically, the bombing mission), which would be updated graphics on a new game engine. Only differences between those two projects combined and what I'm attempting to do is, Q-Gears requires reverse engineering FFVII (HUGE no-no in the programming world), and my own idea would be a rework of the original story into a different game style.

EDIT: Just realized, after all these posts, that I miss clicked when doing my original post, was intended to be posted in the General section instead of here, if a mod would be willing to move this over there, give the go ahead to continue here or give a C&D, it would be much appreciated.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-31 23:44:26 by Senti »

Miseru

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #20 on: 2010-09-01 00:20:30 »
 I wrote to read this Halkun topic untill you understand why this happen, not what's happening.>.> The case is if you even consider doing a game with modern graphic engine based on THEIR idea(story/characters etc.) you'll be a threat to their $ making machine and you can as well consider yourself being warned or even sued depending on the mood of rightfull owner of stuff you reuse(meaning everything counting story/characters/logos/weapons, etc. not just models/graphic which most seem to understand reading mentioned above topic >.>). Basically that topic should be taken more generally couse if you take it just like that - literally, you end not talking about any FF7 models as you generally rip existing models to change them, soo any kind of modding FF7 can be literally taken as ripping models too. It's not against the rules through couse Square gives a pass on it as long as they doesn't see it as a minus on their $. Something that can be seen as a minus for Square even by a second rate economist, just can't pass.

 Besides like I wrote before I don't belive any free project can be born by discussing something everyone at least once thought before. Get to work first, then if you do some decent stuff others maybe join, don't count that people will form a team just becouse you dream about something soo much that you don't care being sued in the future. I doubt there are any skilled people selfish enough to continue doing stuff for themselves or starting it knowing they'll not be able to release it. It's fun doing things for others, fame or just simple pleasure from sharing own hard work with others, project that is destined to be closed down from public and can be a huge problem for all of the creators private lives later on will just not gain attention of people that actually work more than talk. So to speak I'm off the topic as I have opinion based on past experience from other forums, that such topics aka "huge ideas with 0 work put in at the time of announce" end to be +postcount for creators without really leading anywhere.:3 Don't take it personally, just any discussion about starting something rising it's uselessness along with size of the project, and is opposite to amount of people that you have on the start. Making practically a new game with new models, on new engine, with copyright/legal problems, while starting with 1 person that name self as unskilled in everything = fail. That's a short version of my harsh thoughts about this.

 I'm not a mod nor have any other power in here to say it's good or bad, just state opinion that people should take more responsibility for topics they start and think twice if it really could turn good even for just them, or could turn bad to whole community. But like I stated I don't belive this will lead to anything, so I lost interest in it. Have fun if you start anything, and good luck to not have problems from that, couse by that overgrown optimism you don't seem to be aware how big companies(at least THIS one) treat their intellectual value.>.>

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #21 on: 2010-09-01 00:37:34 »
I was planning on possibly going ahead with it after seeing what others thought of the idea. Like I said, I can do it myself, though at my skill level in the various parts of game design it would take quite a long time (hence the 20+ years remark). If enough people like the idea then I'm definitely going to go ahead with it, if for nothing else my own, and anyone else involved, personal enjoyment (Square can't say jack s*** about it if you don't distribute, and would take a court issued warrant to cease your computer just to prove you were in the wrong before they could take it to trial).

halkun

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #22 on: 2010-09-01 00:50:53 »
Allow me to put in my two cents.

I'm going to be as clear as I possibly can. I know it might seem a little rough but I think, in this case, it's really important.

You are not going to make jack shit.

Sorry, but you aren't, and I'm going to tell you why.

In the short introduction you gave us, you demonstrated that you wanted to make a game with an engine you did not make, with characters you did not make, and then had the balls to ask for programmers, modelers, and graphic artists to make things that you are not going to make. This leads me to believe that you really don't have the intent of making really anything.

This is really a pet peeve of mine...

It's fun to play pretend. It really is. It's fun to indulge in fantasy of making a game, being the big guy and calling the shots. Hell, I do it too! But, really, what you are doing is a silly hypothetical. Have you even made something as trite as a Tetris clone? A Pong game? If you had an ounce of creativity in your body, you would sit down with a simple pencil and paper, and try and create something...anything! all by yourself. Sponging off the work that someone else did shows an intellectual laziness that really bugs the holy hell out of me. It bugs the holy hell out of Square too.

Now, before you call me a hypocritical bastard, listen up!

One of the many joys in my life is to take things apart to see how they work. It started when I tore apart a washing machine when I was 12. All I had was a toolbox and a front lawn. My mom was really pissed, but I learned something. When I got into computers I was doing to the programs I owned. I even made a very professional sector editor when I was 13 and was doing hex dumps before I was in high school. I pick apart, break down, and digest. It's why I run the wiki and the reason why Gears (the doc that documented for the first time the innards of FF7) was made in the first place. Q-gears was something I started and exploded into something I couldn't control when Akari took over. One is a tear down, and the other is a rebuild. Notice that Q-gears itself doesn't even take FF7 data naively. In the end. It's an engine for you to make what you want.

The up shot is this.. Big dreams? Awesome! Cool plan? Great! But if you didn't even take the time to put a pencil to paper, your words are aren't worth the electrons used to put them on my screen.

As an addendum; make your own characters, your own story, your own world! You would be surprised much more you love them because they are yours. Then, and only then, can you be a complete dick when someone steals it from you.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-01 01:11:02 by halkun »

obesebear

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #23 on: 2010-09-01 01:20:50 »
OH SNAP!

Senti

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Re: Entertaining an idea
« Reply #24 on: 2010-09-01 01:35:01 »
Actually, I have made several of my own games using other engines, using the same engine that created Final Fantasy VII: Dark Cloud I created my own game a long time ago called Chaotic Era, a simple single player RPG based loosely on the D20 pen and paper system. I also created the pen and paper version of Chaotic Era at roughly the same time and ran it as a game for 6 years with a group of friends. I'm also a former mod writer for the RPGA during D&D 3.5 and the Living Greyhawk campaign, and have designed and coded several game trainers/hacks for various games, first one starting with the original Diablo by Blizzard. I've done quite a bit of my own fantasy art on paper, not based on anything in particular, nor have I ever published anything that was completely and originally mine online aside from a few poems as I'm tired of inconsiderate pricks who will find someones drawing, story or the like, throw in minor modifications and call it their own original work without so much a mention to the original author of said works.

I've worked in development teams for Delta Force Xtreme mods (http://www.ngs-squad.com/ disbanned a few years back), Warcraft 3 map development (http://www.herowarsee.com/ created some of the best Aeon of Strife style maps on the WC3 engine, which there are still offshots of those maps being made to date, and have assisted in the development and bug testing at http://www.redscull.com/ for the map Swat: Aftermath), and Unreal Tournament (the original, had a work in progress mod based around melee weapons more then ranged weapons, dropped when my hard drive crashed with the only backup I had and over 90 hours of work put in).

I also know basic programming in C/C+/C++, Java, Jass, Perl, AHK scripting, PHP and your basic HTML. Implying that I only want to be lazy and sponge off the work of another is a pet peeve of mine. What I was looking for wasn't someone to do the work for me, but someone to more or less bounce ideas off of and help make it better where my "basic" skills alone would be lacking in luster. As I said, I'm far from the best at the things I can do, but just because I'm asking if anyone might be willing to assist in a possible idea of mine in no way means I'm unable to do it myself.

The major reason behind this post was for me to get the idea out and see how I felt about it, as well as others, after discussing it. Some people are able to sit down and start doing something out of the blue without thinking about it or discussing it, where as I prefer to have a seat, put things out on the table to analyze it from each direction and get input from others of similar mindset about said idea. I can sit here and squeeze out idea after idea which at first glance seem pretty kick ass but when viewed from another angle you find gaps and holes, sometimes these can be "patched up" so to speak, others they can't. I also like to come up with new ways to do things that are already around, such as what this topic was about, an idea to do FFVII in a different play style then it was originally done, while keeping the original story and setting in tact. Yes, I'm primarily a thinker, but that in no way, shape, form or fashion means that I won't or can't act on an idea if I like it enough to take it from concept to development.