Author Topic: [FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY) (Read 1265332 times)

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2075 on:** 2013-09-23 20:27:49 »

Forget which of the members was the girl so went with he, my apologies

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2076 on:** 2013-09-23 20:29:32 »

With the English language, he is the closest thing we have to gender neutral, so it's a fair enough guess. XD No worries! ^_^

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2077 on:** 2013-09-25 12:44:48 »

I don't know how many conversations I've had about "Sephiroth clone/copy" but when i read what luksy wrote today, the penny finally dropped.

The word "copy" for us is seen the same as "clone", but this is not what the word means in the story. In this context it means "Project to make another Sephiroth-type person". As in, a process/project to "copy" what they did to create Sephiroth. It does not in ANY way refer to actual copies or clones, or even genetic material. Using the word "copy" really confuses this for a westerner, and I will have to see about using some different approach. As it is now, the word copy is always seen as synonymous with clone, as in genetics.

When you see "Sephiroth-copy" in game (and unfortunately the English localisation used clone too), you immediately think "Ah, a copy of Sephiroth" but again, that is not how it is intended. It simply means "those we tried to make the same as Sephiroth" (via Jenova cells, mako irradiation and so forth). Only Cloud succeeded in this, or at least, partially.

Kaldarasha · « **Reply #2078 on:** 2013-09-25 13:25:08 »

Quote from: Kaldarasha on 2013-06-22 23:55:23

^{from 'Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega', Translations by Ryu_Kaze}

It's the same with Sephiroth, he was an embryo when they inject the Jenova cells in his body, so he was unable to resist to the influence of the Jenova cells.
If we see the happening with the point of view of Hojo, the theory is follow :
If a psychological unstable person, who bears cells of Jenova in his body, this person seems to be attracted by Jenova (because Jenova wants to be one again). That means ,if you put the cells in a persons body which never could reach the requirements of being a SOLDIER, this person should be attracted by Jenova after a certain time. (The theory of the Reunion, rebuilded by Kaldarasha )

So, creating Sephiroth Clones means actually making a Sephiroth alike persons. Remember Hojo wasn't there, so he assume that Sephiroth has lost his mind and wants to join with Jenova. That's where he has made the mistake. The embryo part has made Sephiroth more or less to another (god like?) life form, which surpasses Jenova.

I knew we had this discussion before.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2079 on:** 2013-09-25 13:43:38 »

Yeah that's right. Did I see that before? If I did... I really cannot recall it.

Kaldarasha · « **Reply #2080 on:** 2013-09-25 14:36:36 »

Here it all begins:
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=11649.msg200638#msg200638

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2081 on:** 2013-09-25 14:41:40 »

Ah well... got there in the end. I must have been tired or something to miss that.

Ver Greeneyes · « **Reply #2082 on:** 2013-09-25 14:51:53 »

Either way this seems like a fairly story-central confusion to clear up - good stuff

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2083 on:** 2013-09-25 17:08:31 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2013-09-25 12:44:48

I don't know how many conversations I've had about "Sephiroth clone/copy" but when i read what luksy wrote today, the penny finally dropped.

The word "copy" for us is seen the same as "clone", but this is not what the word means in the story. In this context it means "Project to make another Sephiroth-type person". As in, a process/project to "copy" what they did to create Sephiroth. It does not in ANY way refer to actual copies or clones, or even genetic material. Using the word "copy" really confuses this for a westerner, and I will have to see about using some different approach. As it is now, the word copy is always seen as synonymous with clone, as in genetics.

When you see "Sephiroth-copy" in game (and unfortunately the English localisation used clone too), you immediately think "Ah, a copy of Sephiroth" but again, that is not how it is intended. It simply means "those we tried to make the same as Sephiroth" (via Jenova cells, mako irradiation and so forth). Only Cloud succeeded in this, or at least, partially.

Oh damn, that IS a major context issue. Good on you (and Kaldarasha apparently XD) for figuring that out before release!

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2084 on:** 2013-09-25 18:41:10 »

Oh, and believe it or not, the Japanese game actually uses the English "Sephiroth-Copy" (in kana).

セフィロス・コピー
Sefirosu . kopii

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2085 on:** 2013-09-25 18:44:47 »

It's another case of you really can't blame Baskett for this one, you'd really need to have a full understanding of the game's story to really catch it.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2086 on:** 2013-09-25 23:50:22 »

Another before after

before

Code: [Select]

{CLOUD}
“What the?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“whisper…whisper…
	(sorry
	 I was a little surprised).”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“What happened?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“You remember when the Junon Cannon
	disappeared?
	Actually, Rufus moved it.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Moved it? That big thing……?
	Where…? Why?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“Rufus wants to destroy Sephiroth with it.”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“That cannon operates on Huge Materia. 
	But the Huge Materia has already
	been used in the Rocket Plan.”{NEW}
“So since the cannon's useless right now,
	he decided to move it.”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“To a place where Materia…
	no, where Mako is gathered…”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“And, where is that!?”

after

Code: [Select]

{CLOUD}
“Hello?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“…whisper…
  (Sorry about this,it's come
   as a bit of a surprise.)”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“What has?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“You remember how the cannon
  at Junon disappeared,right?
  Well,it turns out that Rufus moved it.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Moved it?
  That big thing?
  Where? Why?”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“Rufus wants to defeat
  Sephiroth with it.”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“The cannon operates on
  Huge Materia,but he used
  all that in the rocket mission.”{NEW}
“So because it was useless
  at Junon,he moved it.”
------------------------------
{CAIT SITH}
“To a place where materia,no,
  where the most amount of
  Mako can be harnessed.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“And where is that!?”
------------------------------

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2087 on:** 2013-09-26 10:09:57 »

Wow. So how are you going to make this "copy" issue clearer in the text? Sounds tricky.

Covarr · « **Reply #2088 on:** 2013-09-26 16:36:31 »

This seems easily enough worked around through careful wording. "you are a clone" becomes "you were made to be another sephiroth"... This is one where more liberties may have to be taken with phrasing for the sake of getting the meaning across. Simply using the word copy isn't much better than clone, IMO.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2089 on:** 2013-09-26 17:10:55 »

Quote from: The Great Covarrtsby on 2013-09-26 16:36:31

This seems easily enough worked around through careful wording.

So how would you reword these to make it clear that he's not referring to clones, but that whatever he's talking about were still based on an attempt to make them "like" Sephiroth?

Hojo
“I have been waiting for the Reunion to start.
   Five years have passed, and now the clones
   have begun to return.”
------------------------------
Hojo
“I thought the clones would begin
   to gather at Midgar
   where Jenova is stored.”

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2090 on:** 2013-09-26 17:29:44 »

You can do as he just said, or just use "Sephiroth-type" etc. That above quote you have used from the original game is already pretty badly worded as is anyway. And using clone there is completely erroneous to begin with.

Covarr · « **Reply #2091 on:** 2013-09-26 17:32:36 »

I'd have to see Luksy's literal translation to know for sure how to do it, but probably something to the effect of imitations, counterparts, likenesses, knock-offs, facsimiles, carbon copies... MAYBE even replicas. Personally I like facsimile best for those two examples you gave, as it best conveys (IMO) the idea that it's built to be the same, but still done from scratch separately.

I'm sure DLPB has already come up with a solution to this, though. When I do my proofread run, I'll pay particular attention to this.

edit: I half wonder if maybe the original translator meant clone in much the same way Crash Team Racing is a Mario Kart "clone", as a mimicry, and didn't even think of the obvious biological usage of clone as literally made from the original's genetic material.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2092 on:** 2013-09-26 17:33:48 »

Luksy used copy, because that is literally what the Japanese says there (in English using kana), and we hadn't really discussed this at the time

It won't help you.

They aren't replicas though or carbon copies... they are simply people who had had jenova cells injected into them and underwent the same process as sep, so I will avoid all references to "copy" or clone... the word "type" is closest to the meaning I guess, but I will figure out something!

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2093 on:** 2013-09-26 18:29:34 »

Speaking of tricky, this one was a problem. See I think what's happening here is Sep is ignoring Cloud in the scene completely (it certainly looks that way), and so the actual translation is:

Code: [Select]

Sephiroth
“Mother…
  Let's reclaim the planet.”{NEW}
“I have a great idea.
  We'll head to the Promised Land.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Sephiroth…”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“My family!
  My hometown!
  How could you!?”
------------------------------
Sephiroth
“Ha,ha,ha!
  Here they are again,Mother.”
------------------------------
Sephiroth
“With your superior abilities,
  knowledge,and magic,you
  were destined to rule the
  world.”

But they...
Those worthless fools...
have stolen the planet from you and your people.
You need not be sad any longer.

as opposed to:

Code: [Select]

Sephiroth
“Mother, let's take the Planet
	back together.”{NEW}
“I've thought of a great idea.
	Let's go to the Promised Land.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Sephiroth…”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“My family! My hometown!
	How could you do this to them!?”
------------------------------
Sephiroth
“Ha, ha, ha…
	They've come again, Mother.”
------------------------------
Sephiroth
“With her superior power, knowledge,
	and magic,
	Mother was destined to become
	the ruler of this Planet.”

But they...
Those worthless creatures
are stealing the planet from Mother
But I'm here now
So don't worry.

Remember that Japanese does not indicate a difference between the name and "you"/"your", well not from what I've seen. I asked Luksy before and he said there was no way to tell. The scene as is certainly goes to the side of him speaking to his mother alone, and the text beforehand indicates he has no intention of talking to cloud.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2094 on:** 2013-09-26 18:36:05 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2013-09-26 17:29:44

You can do as he just said, or just use "Sephiroth-type" etc. That above quote you have used from the original game is already pretty badly worded as is anyway. And using clone there is completely erroneous to begin with.

I can't see how "other Sephiroth" works in that situation, nor "Sephiroth-type". Seems very tricky to me.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2095 on:** 2013-09-26 18:39:18 »

Sephiroth type is certainly better than clones being placed into the game...

But I will sort something out, at the least, the clone error won't be there.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2096 on:** 2013-09-26 18:40:09 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2013-09-26 18:39:18

Sephiroth type is certainly better than clones being placed into the game... But I will sort something out, at the least, the clone error won't be there.

Maybe you could refer to them as "Jenova experiments"? Something along those lines? :-/

Dark Phoenix · « **Reply #2097 on:** 2013-09-27 00:39:02 »

Products of the Jenova process?

Rundas · « **Reply #2098 on:** 2013-09-27 01:00:40 »

Quote from: Dark Phoenix on 2013-09-27 00:39:02

Products of the Jenova process?

Too long and elaborate.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2099 on:** 2013-09-27 01:02:18 »

Quote from: Dark Phoenix on 2013-09-27 00:39:02

Products of the Jenova process?

You have to remember all this has to occur in normal dialogue a number of times. That isn't going to look good with "He is a product of the jenova process, I created" etc etc. It is way too verbose. It has to be a recognisable and concise description of them and what a scientist would use. Sephiroth-copy is meant as a scientific description of the creations.

In fact, if you look at thesaurus, it may be possible that "copy" came into being by bad original understanding of English? One synonym is "type" and the other is "model"

"Sephiroth-model"

"Type-Sephiroth"

etc. We need a word that conveys it is a scientific name for the collection of creations designed to be as good as Sephiroth in ability.

Sephiroth-Method?

Sephiroth-design?

Sephiroth-form

Sephiroth-class

Sephiroth-style

Or imitation.

Although it also has to go with this for example:

Sephiroth
“You were…
Yes,it was 5 years ago…”{NEW}
“Niblheim was enveloped in flames.
Soon after you were created by Hojo.”{NEW}
“A puppet,created from the astonishing
life force of Jenova cells,Hojo's work,
and the power of Mako.”{NEW}
“An incomplete Sephiroth-model.
Not even given a number.
That is your reality.”

Perhaps that works? Sephiroth-model.