Author Topic: [FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY)  (Read 1265292 times)

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2175 on: 2013-10-07 21:36:28 »
The problem is Tifa doesn't suppose 7 years in that other dialogue, it's stated as a fact (luksy may need to look at that again).  "Actually is had been 7 years".

Cloud didn't pull sword out either, but that's a minor quibble.  :P

Remember, I need explanations that don't use any of the sequels , prequel material.  I am going to look over the full chronology soon and get a perfect answer on everything.  We are debating story points here that have likely been clearly explained somewhere by the writers.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 21:38:34 by DLPB »

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2176 on: 2013-10-07 21:41:33 »
I don't believe I did.  The one with Zax happen in the game.  I just used the extra dialogue because it wasn't added but the scene did still happen they just didn't feel the need to add dialogue before he died.  All the rest happened in the game aswell.  The scene with Zax happens after you go down to the basement after returning from the lifestream.  It was only stated as fact because at the time according to her he wasn't there.  However in the scenes following this is proven false and she actually acknowledges it stating so you where there you came to rescue me.  At this point it is now confirmed that it actually been five years.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2177 on: 2013-10-07 21:55:42 »
Ah, now that makes sense...  but she knows the incident was 5 years ago.  It's the part on the railway station that she mentions 7 years. That's the part that feels weird.  Why would she not know the difference between 5 and 7?

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2178 on: 2013-10-07 21:58:42 »
I think that at this time she didn't know that Cloud was in the soldier uniform so she draw from his last day in the town.  I think this part is also in the lifestream as well isn't it?  I believe it was before the scene where they found out that he was one of the infantry men.

Caledor

  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • [ITA]
    • View Profile
    • Facebook Page
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2179 on: 2013-10-07 22:04:26 »
You mean reunion in Niblheim,caledor...?

Yeah. Cloud remembers having seen Tifa five years before of course. The point is that he tells her that so nonchalantly cause he thinks she should remember too, thinking of himself has Zack. And when he's found by her in Midgar he's in SOLDIER uniform, the one that Zack made him wear before escaping from the Shinra mansion. Basically to Cloud everythink makes sense cause he was beside Zack the whole time, but Tifa obviously can't explain why he knows everything about Nibelheim AND at the same time states he was the SOLDIER sent there.

And yes, Sephiroth never did anything to Cloud. It's the combination of the trauma of Zack's death, the Jenova cells infused into him, his dreams and his weak personality (he would have never faced Tifa again if it meant to tell her he failed to enter SOLDIER) the catalysts for his mental breakdown. Basically he manages to create a fake persona that makes up for his every failure or trauma. Sephiroth controls Cloud later in the game, using his confused state and his power over the Jenova cells inside him to push him over the edge.

Long story short, Tifa thinks it's seven years cause Cloud head was covered by a helmet the whole time being a shinra infantryman, Cloud thinks it's five years cause he remembers having seen her in Nebelheim and has no shame in saying that cause he thinks he was Zack. The only thing that could not make sense is that Tifa actually sees Cloud in the reactor, when he "saves" her shortly before throwing Sephiroth in the Lifestream, but since Tifa faints moments after that she might have tought of that event as the manifestation of her delusions due to their promise.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:10:11 by Caledor »

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2180 on: 2013-10-07 22:06:51 »
Wiki sums it up nice actually.  :P

Quote
It is revealed that Cloud was not accepted into SOLDIER, and that the dark-haired SOLDIER in Sephiroth's memory pictures was Aerith's first love and Cloud's best friend, Zack Fair. Cloud had been present during the incident at Nibelheim, but as a lower-level Shinra guard in a unit commanded by Zack and Sephiroth, and kept his identity hidden from Nibelheim's townsfolk, as he was ashamed of failing to join SOLDIER. After Sephiroth's massacre, Zack, Tifa, and Cloud had all confronted him. Tifa and Zack were defeated, but Cloud was able to stab Sephiroth and throw him into the Lifestream flowing below the town's Mako reactor, carrying with him Jenova's head. Rather than dying, however, Sephiroth's mind was crystallized in Mako, where he could influence Jenova "infected" subjects and reconstruct his body using Jenova's cells. Tifa was rescued and taken to Midgar, before Shinra arrived to cover up Sephiroth's massacre. Professor Hojo used Zack, Cloud and Nibelheim's other survivors to create the Sephiroth clones, performing the same enhancements given to SOLDIER members — a procedure which included Mako infusion - and injecting them with Jenova cells. A few weeks prior to the first events of the game, Zack broke free from his confinement, escaping the lab and taking Cloud with him. With Cloud still in a confused semi-conscious state from the experimentation, Zack headed for Midgar, telling Cloud about his entire life in SOLDIER and suggesting they become mercenaries, in attempts to get Cloud to come around. Zack was killed and Cloud was left for dead within sight of the city by Shinra soldiers. Cloud recovered, took Zack's sword and made his way to Midgar's Sector 7 train station, where Tifa found him. Cloud's own aspirations to SOLDIER and Zack's memories and stories combined, with the help of the Jenova treatment, to create a false external persona; a split personality. The voices that Cloud has been hearing through the game to this point is Cloud's actual, original persona, locked away along with his original memories. Shortly after these events, the mission with which the game opens took place.[28] Realizing all of this, Cloud is able to regain his sanity.

And yes, I get the 7 years thing now. It's BEFORE she finds out the truth.   You are right.  :evil: She thinks it was 7 because she doesnt realise he was there all along 5 years ago.  Clever writers ;)  The last time she saw him was when he left the village to become a Soldier.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:10:33 by DLPB »

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2181 on: 2013-10-07 22:14:42 »
I agree though it neglects some parts.  Cloud stabs him checks on Tifa.  Shortly after Sephiroth recovers holding Jenova's head he walks out the room to the catwalk back in the room Zax tells Cloud to get Sephiroth.  Then the events with Cloud getting stabbed and such happen.  It also neglects what Cloud himself stated saying that is was Sephiroth's will.  This also neglects the fact that Sephiroth's mind was not the only crystilized.  If it just goes by the mind as it suggests then Sephiroth wouldn't have anything to reconstruct from which is actually even stated even in the wiki.  Though I assume the person who wrote that expected you to know already or just simply forgot.

Caledor

  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • [ITA]
    • View Profile
    • Facebook Page
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2182 on: 2013-10-07 22:23:33 »
Wiki sums it up nice actually.  :-P
Exactly. The only thing that bugs me the is the "A few weeks prior to the first events of the game" part. The timeline states that they broke free December 18 of 0006 and they reach the outskirts of Midgar only in late September of 0007, and the bombing of reactor 1 takes place on December 9 making almost a year (51 weeks,  :-P) worth of time :-o
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:25:20 by Caledor »

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2183 on: 2013-10-07 22:25:20 »
Not the original game anyway...  dates aren't recorded at all.  So I guess that comes from preq seq again?

I mean, part of the original game's charm is that you can believe their world uses a different dating system or names for months.... and now it all has to have real world names and dates?  That sucks.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:30:05 by DLPB »

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2184 on: 2013-10-07 22:32:00 »
I believe there are notes of their experimentation results, when they found them and what happened after and why they let Cloud go in the manshion basement which I believe give dates to them.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2185 on: 2013-10-07 22:33:52 »
No they only say X Day X Month X Year  which leaves ambiguity.

Caledor

  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • [ITA]
    • View Profile
    • Facebook Page
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2186 on: 2013-10-07 22:34:02 »
Not the original game anyway...  dates aren't recorded at all.  So I guess that comes from preq seq again?

I mean, part of the original game's charm is that you can believe their world uses a different dating system or names for months.... and now it all has to have real world names and dates?  That sucks.

Yeah it's likely that that is the case, but at the same time I don't remember where it's stated in the game that only a few weeks of time have passed from Nibelheim to Zack's death.

I believe there are notes of their experimentation results, when they found them and what happened after and why they let Cloud go in the manshion basement which I believe give dates to them.
But they are way too detailed... could it be the Ultimania the source for them?

Anyway if isn't told in the original game if it's few weeks or 50 weeks it shouldn't matter THAT much.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:36:33 by Caledor »

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2187 on: 2013-10-07 22:35:28 »
Quote
Yeah it's likely that that is the case, but at the same time I don't remember where it's stated in the game that only a few weeks of time have passed from Nibelheim to Zack's death.

It isn't...  so that's come from elsewhere. imho It's best to stay well away from other sources if you want to enjoy FF7, because the more you read from other sources, the more the story seems to get retarded from all the crap they have added, and retcons they've made and so forth. 
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:37:05 by DLPB »

Caledor

  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • [ITA]
    • View Profile
    • Facebook Page
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2188 on: 2013-10-07 22:40:39 »
It isn't...  so that's come from elsewhere. imho It's best to stay well away from other sources if you want to enjoy FF7, because the more you read from other sources, the more the story seems to get retarded from all the crap they have added, and retcons they've made and so forth. 

So nobody should care  ;-) .
« Last Edit: 2013-10-07 22:43:02 by Caledor »

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2189 on: 2013-10-07 22:40:53 »
I believe that not only does it not say ingame I believe geoghracially it is impossible given Midgar is on another continent.  It would take a heck of alot longer especially given what between the two give how we had to get there ingame meaning the driver would never go in that direction meaning he had to take some off the beaten path roads or maybe not even roads at all.

Caledor

  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • [ITA]
    • View Profile
    • Facebook Page
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2190 on: 2013-10-07 22:49:12 »
Anyway to me it's incredible how only 16 years later some forum users manage to make sense of a much more complicated situation given all the prequels that help for worse and actually care enough to spend their free time in correcting that (and get complained), while the original translator couldn't, never cared, and everyone was happy of their job (FF7 the MASTERPIECE... even if it makes no sense, lol)  :-o

genesis063

  • *
  • Posts: 612
  • Self proclaimed number 1 Sephiroth fanboy
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2191 on: 2013-10-07 22:56:39 »
What can I say I love a game with villians that have god complexes and dude with huge broadsword.  This is something I've realized for a long while and proud to contribute to the debate and bring some valualbe information to anothers mod.  Thanks DLPB for all that you are doing sir I hope to see more works from you in the future.  I also thank you for having this debate with me this was very enlightning.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2192 on: 2013-10-07 22:59:56 »
It was enlightening for me too.  8) 

This one was still awkward but has been fixed:
This one is a very good example of bad flow.

Old
Code: [Select]
{BARRET}
“So let's hear your story…”{NEW}
“You know, the one about Sephiroth
and the crisis of the Planet.”{NEW}
“Let's hear it all.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“…I used to want to be like Sephiroth,
so I joined SOLDIER.”{NEW}
“After working with Sephiroth
on several missions,
we became friends.”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“You call that a friend?”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Yeah, well…”{NEW}
“He was older than me,
and hardly ever
talked about himself.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“So I guess you'd call us war buddies…
We trusted each other.
Until one day…”

new
Code: [Select]
{BARRET}
“So… Your story?”{NEW}
“Sephiroth. A crisis facin'
  the planet. Let's hear it.”
{CLOUD}
“I wanted to be like Sephiroth,
  so I joined Soldier.”{NEW}
“After working with him on
  several missions,we got
  to know each other.”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“You were friends?”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“I'm not sure…”{NEW}
“I mean,he was older than
  me and didn't really talk
  about himself.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“We were more like
  comrades,I guess.”{NEW}
“We trusted each other.
  Up until then…”

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnKl04es5qkqdGdUWHktN09WRXNheHJ4NFhrakl6Vnc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

You can follow our progress there.   :P
« Last Edit: 2013-10-08 04:33:41 by DLPB »

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2193 on: 2013-10-08 10:52:49 »
Ah well, as for the dates thing...  I was wrong, the original game makes it fairly clear that FF7 uses same time and dating system as Earth (which is a shame... I think they should have been more original there.)

It mentions weeks, years, months, and days.  Doesn't name them, but that's scraping the barrel.  I am sure the reason they didn't name them is because that makes the game harder for the writers ;)

Kaldarasha

  • *
  • Posts: 2449
  • Prince of Model Editing
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2194 on: 2013-10-08 11:00:47 »
Quote
...originally planned for the story to take place in New York in the year 1999
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2195 on: 2013-10-08 11:04:04 »
Thank god they didn't do that. 

luksy

  • *
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2196 on: 2013-10-08 13:16:25 »
They kept the concept which evolved into Parasite Eve, which wasn't half bad.

ThunderPeel2001

  • *
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2197 on: 2013-10-08 14:10:27 »
Midgar is its own little world, if you ask me. I don't see why they need to tie it into our world at all...

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2198 on: 2013-10-08 15:01:44 »
In terms of gravity and stuff, it's important.  I mean it's important that you set boundaries.  i.e.  if someone stabbed, they are seriously injured and bleed and can die.  That works well if you are placing them into danger situations because then it matters to the audience (which is one of the reasons why Advent Children/Star Wars Prequels aren't well written because the violence and real life situations are treated as cartoons)...

but using earth's time system and so forth strikes me as lazy.  The writers didn't want to make it hard on themselves figuring out what year such and such happened, and they didn't want to invest time expanding on ff7 mythos.  of course they also had to consider time and schedule... unlike Tolkien.
« Last Edit: 2013-10-08 15:42:51 by DLPB »

knightsoftheround

  • *
  • Posts: 256
    • View Profile
    • Online Art Gallery
Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #2199 on: 2013-10-08 17:42:13 »
They kept the concept which evolved into Parasite Eve, which wasn't half bad.

Wait, so there IS a connection between VII and Parasite Eve? I was telling a friend about Sephiroth's backstory and she said it reminded her of Parasite Eve so oh my gosh. XD