Qhimm.com Forums
Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: dkma841 on 2015-06-15 15:53:32
-
.
-
I very much doubt it. And even if they do "remake" it, they will only screw it up. Assuming they have the source code (which is doubtful), the most people can expect is a few updates. I'd be very surprised if they had put in the resources needed to remake it. The writers have continually stated that it would take at least 4 years because of their insane pandering to Full 3D HD environments.
-
The only thing I'm predicting from Square Enix at E3 this year is a PC version of Chrono Trigger, ported from Android, for 20 or 30 bucks. That's about all the confidence I have in them right now.
-
An FF7 remake is like finding aliens. No one wants them to exist more than me, but after so many years of bad information, I trust nothing.
-
It would require a complete rewrite. It couldn't be converted. Then, it wouldn't really stand up to the length of other titles.
-
hey covarr
how do you know chorno trigger is coming to the pc
-
hey covarr
how do you know chorno trigger is coming to the pc
This video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrSH2wKh6ys
They don't say anything that's actually happening, but the music in the video is Frog's theme from Chrono Trigger, and I don't really think they're gonna make a new Chrono game, so a port of Chrono Trigger to PC seems most likely.
-
I share dlpbs sentiments. Square,s definition of "remake" is laughable at best. Plus, the information is from a site ive never heard of, so im not taking it seriously to begin with.
-
SONY PRESS CONFERENCE 2015. CONFIRMED. IT'S HAPPENING!
-
It's legit, they just announced it. And it looks all Advent Children'd up, both in visuals and story. Dammit.
-
It's happening, huh? Not sure how to feel about it myself. My SE confidence isn't that high. But I'm trying to be hopeful that it'll hold up.
-
Bloody hell. I don't know what to think. I never got this far in the thought process before- it always stopped at "Not gonna happen".
I hope it's good. I won't mind if it's not, I think.
-
To be honest, I am not even hyped or excited for it anymore. I spent years wanting it. Now, it is just sort of 'meh' from me.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kznek1uNVsg Trailer ;)
-
Sorry, got excited. lol
-
Someone pointed out to me that the trailer's narration is not in-universe. It's about a fan reunion, about how the studio went quiet after the PS3 tech demo. From that perspective, it's actually kinda clever.
Just keep Angeal and Edge and all that out of the game and maintain the turn-based combat and I'll be happy.
-
I'll believe it after I sleep and recheck tomorrow, to make sure i'm not in some kind of inception. Holy crap, I totally did not see that coming.
-
.
-
.
-
.
-
This is very surreal. After all the false hope and cashing in on the ff7 name with spin offs it's strange to see it actually happening. Can't wait to see some in game footage
-
I hope they dont mess this up. Sometimes its better to not remake a game.
-
SQUARE ENIX BROKE THE INTERNET. This is like the most awaited remake in the world (Even though I am the VIII guy I'd definitely buy a PS4 and this would be my first game).
-
I know it's only a video, but Midgar looks amazing. Seeing as Nomura has creative control though I guess we'll be treated to more of host club Cloud and hip hop Barret.
-
All I can say is I hope it is good, I was reading that it says "Play it first on PS4". Perhaps it will come to PC, and then it can be modded.
Still, I still have a non-reaction. xD. I guess it is just sinking in.
-
.
-
My jury's going to be out on this one for a while. I completely agree it needed a remake, but unless they add lots of new content it's going to feel short and small next to legit 80+ hour JRPGs. The WR for FFVII without the Yuffie Glitch is under 7 hours. Yes, that is literally blazing through and weeks of optimizing segments, but still a short game.
-
L.Spiro has shine through already that they are working on something great he can't tell us.
I dislike the decision to use the AC or Dessidia 2015 style. I hope they will use the old camera style to keep a little bit the feeling of the original at last but as I knew Japanese devs they will go insane create a super 3rd person action game...
My fear is that they will split the game into three. There is simply to less time until 2017 for the whole game and it's the best way to milk the fans.
If it does then I could care less tbh, not interested in modding a perfectly fine current gen good looking game. The original FF7 definitely needed mods but this? Not really so still getting it for ps4 can't wait
I could imagine that a part of the fans isn't pleased how SE is changing the story again and making the game to another Flat Fantasy title.
So a 'back to the roots' mod seems probably as a good idea.
-
My fear is that they will split the game into three. There is simply to less time until 2017 for the whole game and it's the best way to milk the fans.
Soooooo you're afraid they'll do something they've already done?
FF7:BC
FF7:CC
FF7
FF7:DoC
You want MORE milk?
-
Oh God... let's hope it works well for all us fans! :)
-
This will be dogstrawberries, I promise you. My call is 100% linear gameplay, the return of whiny emo-kid Advent Children Cloud (as opposed to original FF7 crazy Cloud), tie-ins to all the sequels merchandising commercials, super-serious lame-ass voiceovers, no profanity, no on-screen violent deaths of main characters (this seems like an insane call given that Aeris died with a freaking FMV, but nonetheless I'm calling it - and if you need a spoiler tag for that I will beat you), and it will be the most profitable game since the last strawberries-show Square Enix released. At this point it's all about graphics and the brand, nobody actually cares about the gameplay, the story, or the world-building.
It will be the gayest (gay as in lame) thing the world has ever seen.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. They'll butcher it with needless silly matrixesque stunts and probably shoe horn characters from the rest of the franchise. It will be interesting to see how their localization compares to ours, at least. I've been hoping since the merger that they never get round to it, especially after hearing what Kitase et al keep saying about graphics and time (which is why I am surprised they have even started). They're already using the crap AC-type stuff. I can't see them maintaining the original structure at all.
The good news is, the original game will always be here - untouched by their needless meddling. I'm sorry I am so negative on the issue, but it's really hard to get excited given the incompetence at Square these days, and the fact fans are already running around behaving exactly as Square desires. Square know they can rush out a slapdash game and it will sell like hotcakes, and that is never a good thing if you want to see effort put in.
-
I think personally that the voice speaking is directly pointed at us and completely unrelated to the game. It is a non universe voice so its either aimed at us or possibly an unrelated character re-telling the story to someone. That could even open up a new idea for another sequel depending on who he is and how he's tied in or what he has been doing during it. PS his voice is Jiraiya from naruto. In my books another personal win. Thats epic :D
-
i really hope this will be what we want from a remake BUT i know they will ruin it
don't really care i am getting it no matter what thought
so yeah that's my take please don't be negative people have some faith maybe just maybe
also that is the original buster sword but WHYYY what about CC so it never happened or what
any ideas?
-
The worst part won't be however they remake the game but the fanatics that will surge in number. You think "this is the best FF" elitism is bad now? Hah. It'll be opinion and troll apocalypse when it's out.
I expect mostly DLC stuff to make an apperance. Yuffie and Vincent get cut and implemented as DLC, there'll maybe be a bestiary, more achievements, maybe a new special mode in the arena (Bare bones, lots of DLC battles), optional side characters that just show up in battle (DLC) some 1-2 new super bosses (DLC) and maybe even a new dungeon (DLC)
Because no matter how hard they muck this up, how hard they milk it with DLC, the fanatics will buy it all up. Even if each new character (battle only) costs 14,99$ (lets assume 19,99$ for vincent and another 19,99$ for yuffie) and the other stuff also ranges around 10$ each (new dungeon obviously 19,99$) they will gobble it up. All up. With a big spoon. Cramming it down their own throat until they can't even breathe anymore.
The game itself I just expect a lot of 'modernized' changes. Voice acting, 'updated' personalities, (Removal of Barret and Yuffie date scenes), A teleport function of some kind, (Removal of the old or made from scratch 'new' minigames in the gold saucer), Removal / Made From Scratch Condor minigame, Removal of cross-dressing scenes, Combat alterations to make it more 'modern' such as giving it a FF10-2 combat system, and a few other things.
-
Do they even allow VA to be disabled in the options with any of the FFs? Or are you forced to put up with it? I can imagine FF7 faring really badly with voice acting - part of the charm with the original is that you imagine what they'll sound like and I really don't think the game will take well to voices.
-
You could always mute the game entirely and put on the OST via CDs
Otherwise, you're out of luck, final fantasy games generally don't let you mute voice acting.
Also, unskippable cutscenes that are now 5x as long as before because textboxes are gone and it's all spoken dialogue.
Lifestream sequence? A 2 hour movie.
-
Soooooo you're afraid they'll do something they've already done?
FF7:BC
FF7:CC
FF7
FF7:DoC
You want MORE milk?
You have missed the snowboard minigame for mobile... :evil:
At the time I only can wait and see how good FFXV will be after that I make my prediction. For me is Kitase and Nomura not a good news, even if they have a high part in FF7's development. Statements which say that they are proud how well all the FF7 games do work together let me shiver.
-
I wish you were wrong, but I am almost certain you're be right. The designers have no idea what made FF7 good in the first place, so trying to "remake" it is a no-go. You can see already from that one scene where this is all going. The irony is the game would be better received, easier to make, and better overall if they just stuck to the original game and updated the engine, translation, prerendered graphics and difficulty. But no. Let's have full 3d, voice acting, huge cutscenes and totally lose the charm and grit that the original had. They might keep the ATB system but that's a big MIGHT. From reading around seems most suckers out there actually want to have crappy slash slash IQ level 1 game play.
-
It will be interesting to see how their localization compares to ours, at least.
Wo wo wo ! They never said they would go as far as remaking the localization ! :evil:
More seriously, judging from the trailer, they seem to remake a good part of the narration, which is good IMO. As said, the old version will still be there and if they are going for a remake, it's better if they remake more.
Plus, there is indeed the lifetime issue that NFITC1 pointed. I guess you would still have a "makou reactor portion", a "Shinra portion", a "Temple of the ancients" portion... but they would be totally different in the details.
At least that's what I hope, but I'm not an hard-core fan of FF7 so my point of view is surely missing things.
-
Yes, I'll echo some sentiments here. Quite worried about this, I was hoping FF7 remake wouldn't be announced until after FF15 at least. This is too early for me, I was more than happy with just FO4 and Shenmue III. I just hope it doesn't become "Advent Children: The Game" in terms of visual style.. they should be looking to the original as much as possible.
-
Can someone detail to me the AC-Style you're seeing? I mean, I do recognize Barret's handgun as that, but if I stop the video just right...he doesn't look like rapper Barret with anything else. His hair looks like it's the high top style, his torso and arms are heavily muscled and disproportional, and his jacket is the old school brown leather. The same goes for Cloud's outfit being that of Soldier. Midgar also looks a lot darker than the AC movie, as if its life is being sucked away by the reactors. They also referenced the trains and playground from the original.
I'm just curious on others view of AC-style :)
-
Can someone detail to me the AC-Style you're seeing? I mean, I do recognize Barret's handgun as that, but if I stop the video just right...he doesn't look like rapper Barret with anything else. His hair looks like it's the high top style, his torso and arms are heavily muscled and disproportional, and his jacket is the old school brown leather. The same goes for Cloud's outfit being that of Soldier. Midgar also looks a lot darker than the AC movie, as if its life is being sucked away by the reactors. They also referenced the trains and playground from the original.
I'm just curious on others view of AC-style :)
Well for me, I never said it was - I watched the trailer once on my cell phone at an awkward angle, haha. I just hope it has its own visual style compared to what we've been seeing with the FF7 series recently. I'll check out the gameplay videos in more detail.
-
It doesn't look identical to AC, but it is a massive step away from the design and feel of the original game. But the worst part is that they will stuff it full of cutscenes that never end. That, I can do without. Graphics are still the selling point for most, even though that has sod all to do with good game play or story. From the very beginning we can already see the thought process for the game. I'd love to be wrong but I know I'm not going to be. I can see a lot of whinging on the horizon from people who buy it, along with high praise from people who think good graphics make a game.
-
If they add the option to skip the Kalm flashback and Cloud's mind scenes it will be a vast improvement. Yes, they're important to the plot, but they just plod on.
-
I think that when people say it looks like AC, it's because of the way the style leans towards photo-realism rather than the typical Japanese cartoon/manga/anime style of the original game, and I have to say I agree.
Personally, I find that worrisome, because while that style works within the narrative of AC (because AC only contains locations and characters that lend themselves to that style) - the original game contains lots of strange characters, locations, enemies, slap-stick humor, and narrative quirks that would be extremely jarring against a photo-realistic style - which means that they'll probably be removed for the sake of cohesion with the new style. And that, IMO, might stop this from being a remake that a lot of the original fans will enjoy.
Now @topic in general -
I am not necessarily against a remake that steps more in the direction of what a lot of people would consider a "reboot" if it had happened it the world of comics etc. - after all, we already have the original, and I am not sure that I need nor necessarily want a remake that's simply an upgraded version of the original (I still can, and still do enjoy the original as is - and play it regularly in either case).
However because it's a remake I am still going to be, consciously or not, comparing it to the original to see how it stands up - and to be honest, that might hamper my experience of it. Also, even if I'm not sure if I want such a remake now, I might end up wanting it once I see how this turns out.
FF7 was, to my mind, essentially a 90's anime in game format. Everything from the art-style, to the story-telling, to the music screams mid-90's
unashamed, unabashed and tacky glory. That's what made the game great to my mind. Non of that posturing Iphone, Tron, skinny-jeans, hipster, PC bullshit that passes for "cool" these days and have been the dominant art-direction in pretty much everything from MTV music videos to prime-time television since the somewhere around the later half of the 00's.
Personally, I am sick and tired of everything looking like it's been produced by the same people - everything looks and feels like it's been set
in a parallel universe that is the result of a fusion of the Matrix, MGS4, Advent Children, and then presented as if it's being marketed by fucking Apple.
FF7 was a game that had drunks shitting in toilets asking for medicine, drug-addicts, bordellos, bright neon-colors, people randomly getting hit by trucks during combat, cross-dressing, slap-fights, and brightly colored chocobos raced through a track that looked like it was designed by a person on a cocktail of crystal meth and LSD. It also poked fun at strange body-types, flirted with portrayals of womanizing characters, depicted smoking and alcohol consumption all willy-nilly, while smashing physically impossible architectural structures from completely different time-periods and countries together at alarming rates.
In short - FF7 didn't give a flying fuck about anything except being this over-the-top, trippy ride through conventional FF thrown through a blender of anime and 90's pop-culture and political issues.
That's what made the game what it was - it also something that probably won't work in the modern market with the new generation of gamers, despite the fact that the removal of if it also probably what will be seen as shitting all over the original fans, and make the game feel nothing like the original.
The optimal FF7 simply can't be made anymore. It was a product of its time, for the people of its time. People who missed it back then, will probably never really get it anyways, and making a remake in a way that is approachable to the new generations will inevitably compromise the entire soul of the game.
So, let's be realistic and call it what it probably is - FF15 in an FF7 coat. It's probably being made in the same engine - it might even share a lot of the assets (I always found it peculiar how so many of the characters in the original Versus 13 trailers looked exactly like members of the
FF7 cast, but that might have been a coincidence).
Sure, that might be a good game in its own right, and I might even enjoy it if I go into it like that. But even just based on this trailer alone I can pretty much guarantee that this isn't going to be much like the original in any regard except for in broad strokes.
I'm still looking forward to it though. Because even in knowing that this isn't going to be "my FF7", it's going to be "a FF7", and to be honest - that's enough at this point.
I've waited what? 18 years for this? People seem to think that if they screw up now, that's unforgivable - but I am the other way around. Given the change in the times, and all the time that has passed since the original release and the impact that has had on both the producers/devs, and the fans of the franchise, they can't really succeed in my opinion.
I expect them to fail somewhat, and I am okay with that because instead of going into it expecting "my FF7", I'll go into it expecting a new FF7 and try to enjoy it for what it is.
It might fail at this as well, but that's the metric I am going to judge it by, and I'll make that judgement when I play it - not before.
-
If they add the option to skip the Kalm flashback and Cloud's mind scenes it will be a vast improvement. Yes, they're important to the plot, but they just plod on.
I've got skips for both of those scenes in NT :I
-
Y'know, I was really worried about this at first, but something was pointed out to me: Square Enix has a surprisingly good track record for remakes. FF4DS (and later iOS, Android, and PC) had awful graphics and atrocious voice acting, but it was absolutely true to the original in gameplay and story. They made balance changes, but at its heart it was still clearly FF4. FF1 and 2 have been remade several times, and all of these remakes have been well beyond than satisfactory. The FF6 remake for mobile has terrible art and serious technical issues with scaling and tiling, but it also gets the story and gameplay right.
As strawberries as the company has been with spinoffs, direct sequels, and new games in all of their franchises, they simply do not have a history of messing up the gameplay or story in remakes. The closest they ever came to that was FF3 DS, where the added a story because the original didn't even have one. It would be out of character for them to change it; their usual story/gameplay awfulness has been thus far never hurt a single remake they've made.
I legitimately don't think they understand what people liked about FF7 or why it was good, but I don't think that'll be an issue. For the last decade or so, the company has done nothing but "play it safe" wherever they can. That's why those awful FFXIII sequels exist; the first one was profitable, so they built on that. That's why their most unique product in years was Bravely Default, a low-budget 3DS game; if it didn't succeed, it wouldn't be a huge loss. The way to play it safe with this remake is to give fans a remake, not a tie-in product to the compilation. They know that, and as long as they don't give Nomura and Nojima free reign to do whatever they want, we probably have nothing to worry about.
They don't WANT to risk changing it, as that would be more work (and therefore more money) than doing it right, and has a good chance of printing them less money. That's not a creative decision, it's a business decision, and especially after the piss-poor market performance of Lightning Returns, there's just no way they would come to any other conclusion.
Edit: This scene is going to be delightfully cringey and painful in HD. I can't wait to see audience reactions. (http://i.imgur.com/ij7ZfUU.jpg)
-
I cant believe it is actually happening.. i've waited for soo long :o I just hope they'll dont change too much things of the original. Anyways, i think i have to buy a PS4 :mrgreen:
-
I'm still pinching myself, this is too good to be true... Also Shenmue 3. wtf...
-
They just announced the PC version is being ported to iOS. Wtf
-
They have the potential to do a great job, I hope they don't squander this opportunity. Regardless of the quality of the VA's/gameplay/story, this thing is going to look great.
-
They just announced the PC version is being ported to iOS. Wtf
They must have the source code then right?
-
Time to revisit my youth!
-
.
-
According to what I read by someone on this forum not so long ago, they couldn't even get Zack's death right in the "remade" scene for the spin-offs. And that's just one scene. Imagine the poor bastards trying to make the entire game keep to a sensible portrayal of the original story. Not a chance. More chance of seeing a chocobo, flying or otherwise.
-
.
-
Are there any games that fit with the art style and gameplay style of old school PS1 FF games, but with updated graphics (or at least cell-shaded)?
Don't think so.. It's just how the modern world works, I think. If you look at sites like NMA for Fallout, people are still complaining about Fallout 4 not being an isometric game. It seems kind of absurd to me, but then I think "modern" FF fans must view us the same way haha. The attention and money always moves to the "best looking" modern things regardless of gameplay style.
-
The Tales games have a similar playstyle to the retro final fantasies. I'm playing persona3 at the moment and it got me hooked.
-
Y'know, I was really worried about this at first, but something was pointed out to me: Square Enix has a surprisingly good track record for remakes. FF4DS (and later iOS, Android, and PC) had awful graphics and atrocious voice acting, but it was absolutely true to the original in gameplay and story. They made balance changes, but at its heart it was still clearly FF4. FF1 and 2 have been remade several times, and all of these remakes have been well beyond than satisfactory. The FF6 remake for mobile has terrible art and serious technical issues with scaling and tiling, but it also gets the story and gameplay right.
However, they have a extremely poor track-record when it comes to how they treat the FF7 franchise.
Instead of giving people the remake they always wanted, they ignored fan-sentiment to release spin-off upon spin-off that nobody asked for - spin-offs that changed the art-style, retconned everything from story to character personalities, and even added new things that make little to no sense in light of the original narrative.
The question will always be - is this going to be a remake that is made is if all that stuff didn't happen, or is it a remake that's going to
expand upon and acknowledge all the other shit in the franchise that they added in later years?
As strawberries as the company has been with spinoffs, direct sequels, and new games in all of their franchises, they simply do not have a history of messing up the gameplay or story in remakes. The closest they ever came to that was FF3 DS, where the added a story because the original didn't even have one. It would be out of character for them to change it; their usual story/gameplay awfulness has been thus far never hurt a single remake they've made.
However, as far as I am aware, non of the games they've successfully remade has the same mess of an expanded universe as FF7,
so that was never really an issue for these games to begin with.
I legitimately don't think they understand what people liked about FF7 or why it was good, but I don't think that'll be an issue.
If you don't understand this, you can't possibly qualify the later sentiment in this statement.
They don't WANT to risk changing it, as that would be more work (and therefore more money) than doing it right, and has a good chance of printing them less money. That's not a creative decision, it's a business decision, and especially after the piss-poor market performance of Lightning Returns, there's just no way they would come to any other conclusion.
Actually, I think granted the current state of the market, and the production-costs associated with AAA gaming, they wouldn't risk not changing it - because despite what FF7 fans like to think - there are not enough FF7 purists around to justify spending the kind
of cash you would need to spend for a full-blown, fully 3D, fully voice-acted FF7, which means that if that's the kind of game
SE are going to make, they have to make it and market it to a bigger demographic, which is why the safe thing to do here is to change it.
SE aren't stupid. They can see the success and sales-numbers of the new generation of console RPGs, like Fallout, Witcher, and Dragon Age. They are also bound to have noticed the interest and promise of FF15. They're not going to go "Let's release an RPG with game-play conventions from the 90's aimed mainly at a minority of purist fans that's going to cost us millions upon millions of dollars".
According to what I read by someone on this forum not so long ago, they couldn't even get Zack's death right in the "remade" scene for the spin-offs. And that's just one scene. Imagine the poor bastards trying to make the entire game keep to a sensible portrayal of the original story. Not a chance. More chance of seeing a chocobo, flying or otherwise.
That's right. They bastardized the entire Crisis Core plot-line, by making Zack, who was originally not a very good soldier by any stretch of the imagination into this super-hero who could fight hundreds upon hundreds of soldiers at once, or face of against Sephiroth without being instantly one-shot.
The entire death scene of Zack has been turned into this Matrix-esque "This is is Sparta!" emotional jerk-off.
Take into account the addition of pointless and narrative-breaking characters like Genesis and Angeal and the entire thing becomes even worse.
CC was a good game IMO, but it made a mess out of the FF7 lore.
The artwork for original FF7 was anime style, but more realistically rendered. My ideal FF7 remake would be cell-shaded so it looks like this:
http://www.ffcompilation.co.uk/pages/ffvii/images/ffvii_conceptual_artwork/ffvii_conceptual_artwork_020.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080926214004/finalfantasy/images/3/32/Cloud_Portrait.jpg
http://www.ffcompilation.co.uk/pages/ffvii/final_fantasy_vii_concept_artwork.php
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110227161510/finalfantasy/images/1/1a/Cloud-FFVIIArt.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130202111634/finalfantasy/images/4/42/Cloud_Menu_Young.jpg
That's essentially my thought too - or at least if they made it conventional 3D, to do it similarly to Kingdom Hearts "cartoony 3D".
Despite annoying changes to the characters to make them look more cute, and contrived costume changes, the Kingdom Hearts (the original that is, since later editions started using the AC designs for some retarded reason or another) rendering of characters like Cloud and Cid IMO are probably the best modern 3D renditions of the characters there is.
At least by opting for that graphical approach they could keep pretty much the environmental designs, character designs etc. close to the original.
Good luck to the dev team making places like Gold Saucer true to the original with the current direction. lol.
-
I think we can all agree that the best we can hope for is that the game is an adequate remake. Most likely, the game is going to have some issues that will prevent it from being the superior version for us old school fans who play it.
I agree with Covarr that Square makes games that are very faithful to the originals; my fear is that the remake is going to be more faithful to the spinoffs than the original game.
All that being said though, for those of you who are completely appalled by the idea of a remake, please don't ruin it for the rest of us by constantly trashing the idea. I'm not super confident in Square's ability but I would rather there be a remake than none at all. The remake will not do any more harm to the original that the spinoffs haven't already done. If all else fails, we'll still be here patiently waiting for more of Dan's mods.
-
I just hope we get to see the Honey Bee Inn massage scene in true HD.
And I hope to be a part of the project after Final Fantasy XV.
L. Spiro
-
I just hope we get to see the Honey Bee Inn massage scene in true HD.
I can't see that happening, because scenes like that will push rating on the game. When was the last time SE made an FF game with anything beyond a PG-13 rating?
But, we're allowed to hope now aren't we?
-
Must... resist urge... to troll hilariously salty uber fans...
-
Bottom line, we'll just have to wait and see, maybe Tokyo Game Show for something early.
-
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-s-story-could-deviate-from-/1100-6428247/
-
I'm worried more than anything else. This could be great but the art-style has me worrying they're gonna muck it up by stuffing the game with unnecessary melodrama. Part of what I enjoy about the original game is the wackiness/charm and the characterization being full of ordinary dialogue and humor.
I want to be excited but at the same time I've half expected that when the gang rescues Aeris this time, It'll involve running up the side of the shinra building, back-flipping off the wall, bursting through with a spinny halo of buster swords, and a ten minute fight scene with a specter of Sephiroth.
I suppose only time will tell... and if I'm disappointed, there's still NT and the new mod I'll be releasing. (And the many other wonderful projects members of the forum have created)
-
Oh man it would be so cool to revamp the materia system, you could do a lot with it if you're building it back from the ground up. One thing you could do to add differentiation to your characters is have materia grow, as normal, but you lose some growth when you remove it from a slot (gotta break it out!). Cruel choices are fun!
You could also easily add difficulty settings for people to get the most enjoyment out of their time, for new players who just want to hear the story, and returning players who know the system inside out (like you, reading this, eh? ;) ).
Also, what is wrong with it being Matrix-like? Especially as it's a Japanese game, heavily influenced by Japanese animation of the time, and The Matrix is heavily borrowing from the same sources! It just seems like you're unhappy that your Japanese game is TOO JAPANESE, you know? :p
We will probably get to do most of the fighting ourselves, rather than getting fmvs, anyway. And I will be upset if Vincent doesn't do at least SOME tactical slo-mo back-flips!
-
This about the story:
“We’ve announced an HD port version on the PlayStation 4, and then we have the remake coming to PS4,” Nomura said through a translator. “You’ll have this extremely, very, very pretty FFVII existing on the same plane. We feel that if that happens, it’s like, why have the same exact game?
“We think that if a game is on a certain platform and that platform becomes obsolete, then we’d recommend playing the new port version,” he added.
Makes sense, Resident Evil's Remake did something similar to great effect. But I wonder what's meant by obsolete platforms?
...the new mod I'll be releasing.
How's that coming along?
-
I don't think there's anything "Japanese" about that kind of action sequence. There's a lot of Japanese animation which doesn't feature those sorts of things. I do personally find overblown sequences like that puerile. I prefer for the focus to be on the dialogue/character interaction and very rarely do you find the two together. I think the final fantasy series historically has kept the focus off of the action/spectacle (this was relegated to summons and maybe a few FMVs) and on the relationships between the characters.
I hope they don't change this, and I fear that they will.
How's that coming along?
A few weeks back I started working on it a lot again, and I got some cool things done. I made a very good sapphire weapon model, got the encounter working and scripted in. Some other highlights include a shinryu boss with custom animations and a Four Fiends sidequest (Marilith, Lich, Tiamat and Kraken) which are both about half-implemented in the field. Then, I took a long break because I started a new job and have been putting in a lot of extra hours to get familiar with their ENORMOUS legacy codebase, half of which is written in languages I don't have a lot of familiarity with. That situation is starting to ease up now as I have a better idea of what they need me to know and what is never gonna be touched again =p.
I've been meaning to make a blog about my mod, but I'm lazy/prone to procrastination and I've always hated documenting code/projects (much to the chagrin of all my colleagues). I have also had a hard time coming up with a name for it -_-. I definitely have enough to show some videos and I'll get the cool ones up soon (At least sapphire weapon/some of the original bosses I'm proud of). There are some suprises I don't want people to know about until they're playing the mod, but I'd be happy to discuss in a PM =p.
-
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-s-story-could-deviate-from-/1100-6428247/
Pretty much what I expected. I mean, just based on the trailer you can see that they have already taken liberties with the design of Midgard, and the soldiers(or whatever they are) look more like something out of Modern Combat or Killzone, than FF.
It could work - as I said in my first post, as a sort of "reboot" to the series rather than just a remake.
However, even if I welcome such change for the chance to experience something new, I am going to expect something that is as good, if not better than the original in its own right.
If they start cutting content (like removing the world-map, or not replacing it with an expansive over-world), scrapping the original materia system in favor of something that allows for much less customization, or remove iconic story portions without replacing them with something to fill the gap, then the game isn't going to be very good even on its own - especially with FF15 around the corner.
FF15, love it or hate it, has a lot of promise on the content side of things, with what seems to be a pretty huge world to explore, and in that sense (the grand epic adventure sense) it does have the FF feel to my mind, despite the action combat and the lack of an Uematsu soundtrack. If the remake comes out, and it's this rush through a linear Midgard, with this abstraction for a world map a la FFX, without mini-games, or chocobo breeding/racing etc. then it's just going to be a bad game period.
Actually when I think about it - if they plan on doing major changes, then I would rather they stop calling it a remake, and call it a reboot instead. At least that way, there won't be any ambiguousness on SE's part, and it won't feel like they're just trying to cash
in on the franchise by slapping the FF7 name on something that will be essentially different.
In either case - I hope they aren't just going to leave us hanging with that teaser for several months and proceed to give us some info of substance on the nature of the project. As it is now, it could be anything - it could literally just be a rail-shooter loosely following the plot of FF7 =P
Also, what is wrong with it being Matrix-like? Especially as it's a Japanese game, heavily influenced by Japanese animation of the time, and The Matrix is heavily borrowing from the same sources! It just seems like you're unhappy that your Japanese game is TOO JAPANESE, you know? :p
We will probably get to do most of the fighting ourselves, rather than getting fmvs, anyway. And I will be upset if Vincent doesn't do at least SOME tactical slo-mo back-flips!
Matrix IMO had some of the worst fight choreography I've ever seen. Might sound like hyperbola, but I'm a purist on the matter, and a martial arts enthusiast, so I'm a stickler for this stuff.
Matrix has sub-par kung-fu mixed together with what can only be described as Dragon Ball choreography, and those two genres just don't mix very well.
Also, that's not typical of all Japanese action. Japanese fight scenes exist in many different forms. Typically, Japanese martial arts are minimalistic, focusing on economy of movement, not flashy spectacle, and by extension a lot of Japanese fight choreographers in Japanese cinema go for minimalism as well, with the exception perhaps of the chanbara genre.
The phenomenon you think of here is a relatively modern phenomenon born from the Japanese animation industry and a feed-back-loop it has had with western action choreography since the rise and popularity of the Matrix. Go back and look at 90's anime, and the action is, while over-the-top light shows etc. nothing like the Matrix with it's drawn-out annoying exchanges of blows in zero gravity (with some exceptions like Dragon Ball Z)
FF7 was flashy in it's own rights (just look at the limit-breaks), but it wasn't Matrix-esque before AC. The FF7 action was, again, this typical 90's neon-colored spectacle with light-waves, laser-beams and elemental stuff flying all over the place.
In AC, it was suddenly a bunch of back-flips and wall-running, and long sword exchanges almost devoid of magic.
EDIT - I also think that the subdued action in FF7 had a much stronger impact on the narrative than the over-the-top action in AC.
Sephiroth was awesome because he just chilled, and took two swipes at a dragon and killed it - not because he flew around like a fairy on coke and cut scenery into ribbons.
Even with games like FF8, when they had the capability to animate more sophisticated battle sequences, the sword-fight between Squall and Seifer in the beginning was subdued (almost tame compared to AC) suggesting that the battle-choreography of the PS1 games were consciously made stylistic choices of the times (by Japanese people no less).
I am not pissed off that the game might be "too Japanese" - rather I am worried that it's going to end up looking like what Japanese animation is like today, rather than what it was back when the original game was made - because by any account, today's Japanese anime is a constant spectacle of trying to create more and more ridiculous fight scenes by relying primarily on how much it resembles
the bastard child of Devil May Cry 3 and every animation movie made by Monty Oum ever.
And personally, I am sick and tired of that, because it's everywhere else as well ATM.
It's literally every action scene ever nowadays. Time to do something new, by doing something retro.
-
This about the story:
Makes sense, Resident Evil's Remake did something similar to great effect. But I wonder what's meant by obsolete platforms?
How's that coming along?
I would be very happy with a Resident Evil remake approach. Update the menus, models, backgrounds, and cutscenes and you're good to go.
I am slightly curious what the game would look like if done in full 3D, FFXIII/XV style. But then things like dialogue (voice acting vs. text) and music would severely clash with the flow of the game IMO.
-
And, I'm a bit more positive.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-17-it-seems-like-final-fantasy-7s-remake-wont-lose-so-much-of-the-crazy
Seems Nomura is intent on keeping the cross-dressing part in the game, which means Nomura might be intent on keeping the quirks of the original intact in general.
Okay, I'll play ball and tentatively put one toe on the hype-train.
-
Very well explained arguments, I enjoyed the read!
Yeah, I think the FFVIII opening cutscene is a great call, the gunblades felt so weighty and forceful. Sephiroth being menacing, and then being powerful but over-active reminds me of how Darth Vader was shown in the later pictures compared to initially.
REmake is a standard that all these HD upgrades should aim for, it was very well done.
And yay for crossdressing! There should be Rydia, Selphie, Yuna, and Vanille outfits for Miss Cloud! :-* (let best FF girl arguments commence!)
Edit - also, voice acting will now mean we can't name characters, probably... Boo! Cait Sith's real name is totally MilkyPaws and I won't accept anything else!!
-
It's really happening... I'm expecting "FF7 AC the movie the game". I'm hoping it will be good, but -as previously stated by others- the new art style will compromise some of the original atmosphere and feel of the game. It's hard not to be prejudgmental knowing how they fucked up the FF7 universe with all the spin-offs and shit. I don't see them not expanding on added "features" to the FF7 lore. If they ignore it, it's like admitting they fucked it up.
In the end they will do what they believe is more profitable. It's the way business works. The shareholders must be satisfied. Not saying it's bad or good; just the reality of it.
At least the graphics will most likely be awesome. And they alreaddy have the music. Please don't change that too much.
-
.
-
,
-
“If you’re doing a full remake, it must be made with a different approach that matches the times
That's code for exactly what many here have said they'll do (actually, it isn't code. It's plain.). They have no intention of keeping the game mechanics similar. He's already telling us that it's being changed to the same old we see in other games. It's bye-bye ATB and tactics, hello cutscene and matrix and slash-slash. I didn't want a remake to be the same game, but I did want the mechanics to be the same and all areas polished up and made better.
This statement above is the absolute wrong direction to go in.
He absolutely fails to understand what made the original game fun and the areas where it fell down. It didn't lose points for the actual mechanics. It lost points for its terrible English localization, dated engine (by today's standards), and poor IMPLEMENTATION of the design. If they just stuck to the original game and updated it within those confines (for example, adding more games to Gold Saucer, making the game have proper difficulty and balance, updating graphics but keeping the prerendered setup), it would be hailed as a masterpiece. But they aren't doing that.
I look forward to D-Day (Disappointment Day). Now, I'm going to take my negativity elsewhere and avoid all information on this "remake". I have zero interest in that shit and when I'm done with my own mod it will be superior to the remake in every way except graphics. ;D
-
Woo! Channel that emotion!
-
Honey Bee Scene is coming according to their interview with Eurogamer i think lol.
They know this Remake has a lot of hype and expectations to live up to and is their biggest game, from their interview seems like they will try their best not to fu*k this up for the Remake:http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-17-it-seems-like-final-fantasy-7s-remake-wont-lose-so-much-of-the-crazy
Edit: seems someone already posted this link lol :P
That person being me, the same person you're now replying to...
Also, I'm kinda skeptical about this now anyway, because since I haven't seen the original interview in Japanese, and knowing as much Japanese as I do, I recognize that while the sentence they credit him with ("Look forward to it") sounds like a confirmation in English, if the Japanese original sentence was something along the lines of 楽しにしてください(tanoshiminishite kudasai) it's much more ambiguous
and might mean nothing at all.
New info:
Source: http://gematsu.com/2015/06/final-fantasy-vii-remake-winter-update-includes-official-title-other-details-planning
So far I'm liking their approach to this Remake, not gonna just be some quick easy cash in like alot of people here think they will, they're taking it seriously
The problem though - is that there are many ways to take a remake seriously. Whether you're trying to cater to original fans and keeping it close to the source material, or re-imagining it - both approaches require work and dedication. However, either one
of those approaches can end up messing up the game regardless.
As I said before - keeping it very close to the original material runs the risk of making a game that cannot carry it's own weight because
the price-tag isn't going to be compatible with sales if it doesn't have mainstream appeal, whilst giving the game mainstream appeal
given the current gaming populace at large, means making a game that is probably so alien from the original that those who wished
for an actual FF7 remake, not a reboot or re-imagining, are going to feel like they've been left out in the cold, and probably resent SE for it.
People can make the argument that fans should feel like that, but there is pretty much a silent contract between a company and the fans that have bought their previous products and therefore enabled the company to keep on making products to begin with.
The FF franchise wouldn't exist today as it does in its current form without the original FF7 fan-base, and so to release a product that uses the brand-name but pretty much differs from the original in all ways that count is a pretty strawberries move by any standard.
To digress - there is an issue with the gaming industry as a whole at this moment.
The gaming industry has been too tightly tied to the computer hardware race, and then plummeted into a feed-back loop between
raising consumer expectations with their improved production values, and then having to further raise those production values
as a result of those expectations.
This has created a serious problem for the industry, because bigger titles now cost so much to make that the only way
to get loans from financial backers, and be able to pay them back, is to make products for huge demographics of people.
This is extremely problematic when you consider that the gaming market has historically always been niche (a nerd thing) and then
adding the fact that the gaming market is further divided by genres appealing to enthusiasts with very specific taste in games.
How do you resolve this as a game developer? You have to start branching beyond genres, and make a game that can attract as
many people as possible - and that my friend, is the bane of quality art and media, and always has been.
Why? Because individual taste differs to such a degree that to create something that appeals to "everyone" is to create something that
doesn't alienate "anyone", and that requires developers to avoid almost all the genre-specific game-play mechanics that made
most of the original gamers play games to begin with.
Put strategy elements in a game, and those who can't hack it or don't enjoy strategy elements won't play it, so you dumb down the strategy. Action elements that require skills? Same thing.
You keep on reducing to avoid polarizing elements until the game is a bland soup of simple-button presses, auto-play mechanics, and movie-like exposition - which is what pretty much every AAA game ever is nowadays.
Nomura's statement, and the production values of the trailer (if they are anything to go by, pretty much confirms this).
As much as I want to be hyped for this game, I still have this dreadful feeling that we'll end up with a game where you
pretty much only play as Cloud, with the rest of the party on A.I like in recent FF games, where you hold a button to watch him dart about all AC-style, and where materias have been reduced to a simple gimmick.
Maybe Cloud will free-run, because what games don't have that these days? Maybe it'll have a crafting system, because hey, why not?
Maybe it will play like a bastard child of The Last of Us and Monster Hunter, because these games thrive nowadays, so that's what the consumers want right?
I am open to the possibility that a re-imagining of the game would be a good thing - I just don't see it as being likely seeing as it's going to be a AAA title that by extension is going to need to appeal to the mindless drones who think CoD is the pinnacle of gaming, and who wouldn't recognize a quality RPG even if it hit them in squarely in the face with the Buster Sword.
I hope they prove me wrong, but a few vague statements from Nomura, and that trailer isn't enough.
@topic in general
I can't believe they aren't going to give us more info until winter. I mean, wth. Not a very smart move from a marketing perspective, and it does very little to inspire confidence - especially after the development cycles of games like KH3 and FF15.
-
I can't believe they aren't going to give us more info until winter. I mean, wth. Not a very smart move from a marketing perspective, and it does very little to inspire confidence - especially after the development cycles of games like KH3 and FF15.
Marketing? All they have to say is "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" and the marketing is complete. Even without ANY other information there will still be 2 million pre-orders. It will make "Greatest Hits" status in the first week no matter what is done to the game.
I'm with Daniel on this one. I know I'm going to hate this remake as much as I'm already hating the upcoming Star Wars sequel trilogy. I haven't seen a single trailer for it, but from the stills and Disney I know it's going to be a big mistake. On one hand, George "More CGI" Lucas is out of it, but Walt "Make ALL the Toy Lines" Disney will just be a different flavor of garbage.[/rant]
Things to "look forward to" in the remake:
-Aerith revival quest (plus she'll be named "Aerith")
-More flashy limit breaks that last longer
-Extended cut FMVs in 1080p! (Now with blood!)
-Arranged music = Better music
-Five digit damage limits;eight digit enemy HP.
-More active battles
-Smaller overworld;more dungeon crawly
-No random encounters outside of overworld
-Superboss(es?) that exceed damage limit
-Quests that have no real purpose other than to provide an achievement (Or previously existing quest with an achievement attached to it)
-Better(?) chocobo breeding experience (certainly one of the more grind-y things to do in the game)
-Alternate, or multiple, endings
-Nothing is missable
-New Game+ mode
-More Materia
-More dialogical interludes to break up the non-stop action
Yeah. Guess which FF title I've been binge playing lately.
-
-Better(?) chocobo breeding experience (certainly one of the more grind-y things to do in the game)
Chocobos, eh ?
10 bucks it will be replaced by motorcycle.
-
Chocobos, eh ?
10 bucks it will be replaced by motorcycle.
Agreed, and that is a horrifying, horrifying thought.
-
Hian, your summary of why things end up the way they do is spot on. It won't change, of course, because there are always people to replace the purists or the people who want strategy and so on. I think a lot of the original games had a soul because it was a time when the company HAD to create better titles to make something of itself, whereas now it's already got a name and mass market appeal - no matter what happens. I also think there's more to it than just money getting in the way (that's certainly the biggest problem) - I think it's also laziness on the part of the team. They've gotten so complacent and familiar with FF that they don't try nearly as hard.
I do, however, have a morbid curiosity about how they're going to accomplish remaking FF7 with next gen graphics. Everything is telling me that a LOT of content and the basic mechanics will need cutting for them to succeed - especially in the time scale they are stating. The idea that they'd redo all of those scenes in full HD seems highly unrealistic. In fact, Kitase and Nomura repeatedly stated one of the main reasons they hadn't considered a remake was precisely because of the work load needed to recreate FF7 (yeah, they're telling you a 1997 game had more in it than modern FFs right there).
Ironically, technology ended up being the worst thing to happen to gaming. Up to the PS2 the media was too small for a company to do as it pleased without caring about good design. Now they can bloat a hard drive or blu-ray disc. With powerful networking, DLC content reared its ugly head - another excuse not to care so much since things can be "corrected later", or added later (for a nice fee, of course!). And, as you mentioned, we now have mindless graphic-power wars between the consoles to prove who is the daddy. Well, none of them are the daddy because we're going backwards and graphics do not make a game. These days, they only break it.
-
Everything is telling me that a LOT of content and the basic mechanics will need cutting for them to succeed - especially in the time scale they are stating. The idea that they'd redo all of those scenes in full HD seems highly unrealistic. In fact, Kitase and Nomura repeatedly stated one of the main reasons they hadn't considered a remake was precisely because of the work load needed to recreate FF7 (yeah, they're telling you a 1997 game had more in it than modern FFs right there).
I think this partly depends on how long they've been working on this. At the very least, we know it's been in the works since December 2014, based on what Nomura said in the Eurogamer article (it was already in-progress when they announced the PC-PS4 port). However, not much more than that is clear. For all we know, they could've been working on it for several years now, and simply lied about it when they said before that it wasn't happening.
I'm annoyed by what was said in the Gematsu interview, because it does seem like they'll be changing more than I'd hoped, but I'm not going to make assumptions about the length of the game's development cycle when they haven't made any meaningful statements on it.
-
I do, however, have a morbid curiosity about how they're going to accomplish remaking FF7 with next gen graphics. Everything is telling me that a LOT of content and the basic mechanics will need cutting for them to succeed - especially in the time scale they are stating. The idea that they'd redo all of those scenes in full HD seems highly unrealistic.
This is exactly why I'm curious and can't quite write it off. I know what I would love from this remake, but in my heart I only have but a faint glimmer of hope that we'll get it.
I don't want to see every scene with character interactions and plot development cutting away to a loading screen movie. That's FFXIII series storytelling all over again. What they need is a good balance, which I believe is simply remaking the cutscenes from the original and no more. Extend the original FMVs a bit so that it allows us to reimagine those moments from the past through today's technology. I think the original pacing between each of them was perfect and allows the excitement to roller coaster itself up and down. They also don't need to reinvent the style of this universe with any of the spin-off designs or super inhuman blur fights.
I also think of things like the Gold Saucer dates, Tifa torture chamber, Wall Market gym squats, Corel runaway train, Junon parade, etc....All scenes that had you engaged in minigames and personal interactions with your surroundings. I have a feeling some of these might be transformed into the flashy Quick Time Events that we see in recent games like the Resident Evil franchise. The emphasis on those always felt more about flashy graphics rather than character and story development.
-
Hmm, imagine if FF7 remake is wonderful, the Star Wars sequels are brilliantly made, and FF15 is an amazing RPG....
I'd have to disappear for a few years. :P I'm pretty confident I won't have to, but you never know! I'd be happy to be wrong, though!
-
Hmm, imagine if FF7 remake is wonderful, the Star Wars sequels are brilliantly made, and FF15 is an amazing RPG....
I'd have to disappear for a few years. :P I'm pretty confident I won't have to, but you never know! I'd be happy to be wrong, though!
Heh. I'm predicting something more along the lines of:
- FF7 Remake is considerably better than Advent Children or FF13, but not nearly as good (or faithful to the original gameplay and story) as it could and should be. I'm guessing no story points are outright missing, but a lot of unnecessary stuff is added and some things are changed.
- Star Wars sequels are decent movies, and much better than the prequels, but not as good as the original trilogy.
- FF15 is a good action RPG along the lines of what Kingdom Hearts could've been if it was less buttonmashy, but still doesn't feel like a proper FF.
Based on currently available evidence, this is what I think is the most likely future. Not ideal, but things could certainly be worse.
-
I'm going with sucks hard - sucks hard - reasonable but still sucks for me. Haha!
-
I'm going with sucks hard - sucks hard - reasonable but still sucks for me. Haha!
Spot on with my predictions.
I will say in XIII's defense, it was worth the $14 I paid for the PC version (but only barely). I would have sorely hated if I had paid full price for it on a console. I actually like the story better than the battle mechanics. It's nothing like any of the other FFs which could be a big turn off. I still think IX struck the perfect balance of good story and appealing gameplay.
-
Well, I am going to be very excited about this. Put everything on hold and pray that it is a good thing. How much money would you pay to play your favourite game for the first time again?
Afterwards, I'll either be straight back on helping with the mods of the original. Or I will STFU, have faith in square forever and die happy
-
Marketing? All they have to say is "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" and the marketing is complete. Even without ANY other information there will still be 2 million pre-orders. It will make "Greatest Hits" status in the first week no matter what is done to the game.
I'm with Daniel on this one. I know I'm going to hate this remake as much as I'm already hating the upcoming Star Wars sequel trilogy. I haven't seen a single trailer for it, but from the stills and Disney I know it's going to be a big mistake. On one hand, George "More CGI" Lucas is out of it, but Walt "Make ALL the Toy Lines" Disney will just be a different flavor of garbage.[/rant]
Not really.
Marketing in the context of SE and FF7 is about more than putting out the news to engage the general consumer base - it's about the corporate structure in its entirety.
SE saw a huge increase in share value after the announcement - but the longer time passes without significant news, the more of the momentum will be lost. The shares will stabilize and then drop back to the base-line, and the lack of press coverage runs the risk of the less dedicated general public will lose interest in favor of more pressing concerns such as the new Fallout etc.
When this happens, the dev-team will face new difficulties as the above inherently leads to increase in publisher and share-holder pressure, which usually leads to an increase in production pace, and the shortening of dead-lines which ultimately harms the production-value overall.
That's why this is bad marketing - it's bad marketing because they prioritized shock value (probably due to some back-deal with Sony in order to improve the E3 presentation), rather than thinking long-term about the value of the company and the production process.
Things to "look forward to" in the remake:
-Aerith revival quest (plus she'll be named "Aerith")
-More flashy limit breaks that last longer
-Extended cut FMVs in 1080p! (Now with blood!)
-Arranged music = Better music
-Five digit damage limits;eight digit enemy HP.
-More active battles
-Smaller overworld;more dungeon crawly
-No random encounters outside of overworld
-Superboss(es?) that exceed damage limit
-Quests that have no real purpose other than to provide an achievement (Or previously existing quest with an achievement attached to it)
-Better(?) chocobo breeding experience (certainly one of the more grind-y things to do in the game)
-Alternate, or multiple, endings
-Nothing is missable
-New Game+ mode
-More Materia
-More dialogical interludes to break up the non-stop action
Yeah. Guess which FF title I've been binge playing lately.
Some of these aren't bad though.
- Blood in cut-scenes make sense. I always found it jarring how Shinra building was covered in blood after the Jenova break-out, but then the rest of the game was all PG-13, even as Aerith got stabbed to death by Sephiroth.
- Active battles can be a good thing if done right. I am not confident in this teams ability to do so, but it is possible.
Personally, I thought type-0 had a really good set-up for action battles (although a lackluster on the magic side, and terribly balanced...), and I've always greatly enjoyed the Star Ocean games (at least the first 3).
- more dialogue can be done in a great way to provide personality to a game. One of my favorite games of the newer console generations, was Sakaguchi's The Last Story for Wii. It really did everything right from a narrative and character development stand-point that later FF games have failed miserably at.
The thing that really made the characters of TLS come alive was the banter they shared throughout the game - however,
the banter very seldom interfered with the game-play. The characters would be casually conversing whether they were walking around exploring dungeons, or fighting.
FF7 could gain from such an approach, especially if they plan on scaling it up. If they remove the world-map and add a large open world instead, there is much more room for dialogue between characters being expressed as they travel, instead of the characters standing in place and the game-play coming to a halt for prolonged periods of time.
As for limit breaks lasting longer - later FFs have, as far as I know, consistently added options to skip lengthy animations, so I don't really see overly long animations as being something worth worrying about.
Hian, your summary of why things end up the way they do is spot on. It won't change, off course, because there are always people to replace the purists or the people who want strategy and so on. I think a lot of the original games had a soul because it was a time when the company HAD to create better titles to make something of itself, whereas now it's already got a name and mass market appeal - no matter what happens. I also think there's more to it than just money getting in the way (that's certainly the biggest problem) - I think it's also laziness on the part of the team. They've gotten so complacent and familiar with FF that they don't try nearly as hard.
I has a lot to do with graphics as well. Back in the NES-SNES-PS1 eras and up until the later years of PS2, games wouldn't have had mass-appeal no matter what developers did, because the average person just couldn't see the appeal of manipulating a few pixels around on a screen in either case.
Companies back then had to appeal to purists, because apart from kids, purists were literally the only people geeky enough to engage with the strawberriesty pre-00's hardware to begin with.
Now, everyone and their grandmother can sit down with a Playstation - problem is, they aren't there for love of the medium in terms of what the medium can uniquely offer - they are there for the same reason they go to cinemas, or read the Twilight novels -
Light entertainment and quick emotional gratification.
Not judging though - good for them, and good for the devs who want to make stuff appealing to these people - however it is happening at the expense of the kind of products that established the market to begin with, all while abusing fan-nostalgia and fan-loyalty, and personally I find that to be abhorrent to be honest.
I do, however, have a morbid curiosity about how they're going to accomplish remaking FF7 with next gen graphics. Everything is telling me that a LOT of content and the basic mechanics will need cutting for them to succeed - especially in the time scale they are stating. The idea that they'd redo all of those scenes in full HD seems highly unrealistic. In fact, Kitase and Nomura repeatedly stated one of the main reasons they hadn't considered a remake was precisely because of the work load needed to recreate FF7 (yeah, they're telling you a 1997 game had more in it than modern FFs right there).
I can tell you with pretty high level of certainty some of what's going to get cut -
- Enemy model count - FF7 had tons of enemy types, not counting recolors, for a 3D game. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it had more than any other numbered title after it (although 8 and 9 might have come close), and I am fairly certain it has more than any current gen FF.
They're unlikely to pull of all those models in HD next-gen graphics especially considering the amount of unique animations they'd have to make, and it's even more unlikely if they're going for action-style game-play.
- The map will be scaled down, because having a regular world-map won't work thematically with the new visual style, and making an entire in-scale open-world version of FF7's Gaia simply isn't feasible. If the map get's scaled down, the next question becomes what happens to traveling, and what happens to locations that, in the original, were linked to exploration of the over-world? Probably cut, or changed entirely.
- Story will be cut. FF7 just has too much exposition for a modern voice-acted game. It won't make sense to leave it in as is, and so they'll change it, and whatever doesn't fit with the changes will be cut. I can imagine the flash-back scene in Calm being shortened significantly by simply having Cloud narrate over a few choice moments shown in FMVs with a tarnished sepia filter or something to that effect.
In fact, at worst, I can imagine the entire game being rewritten to allow for a more "stream-lined, fluid, and modern narrative structure" where everything that happens from the moment you leave Midgard is changed to a linear FF10 kind of set-up were you skip relatively quickly ahead to the most significant locations, and get rushed into the last battle with Sephiroth under the excuse that the devs want to avoid player "dead-time" running from location to location on a large over-world, and removing places "irrelevant to the plot" to "save time and resources better spent on more important things"(see - graphics and fight scenes).
Ironically, technology ended up being the worst thing to happen to gaming. Up to the PS2 the media was too small for a company to do as it pleased without caring about good design. Now they can bloat a hard drive or blu-ray disc. With powerful networking, DLC content reared its ugly head - another excuse not to care so much since things can be "corrected later", or added later (for a nice fee, off course!). And, as you mentioned, we now have mindless graphic-power wars between the consoles to prove who is the daddy. Well, none of them are the daddy because we're going backwards and graphics do not make a game. These days, they only break it.
This entire paragraph can be summed up with an appeal to a single game franchise - Assassin's Creed.
GG Ubisoft - please go quietly off somewhere and die.
I think this partly depends on how long they've been working on this. At the very least, we know it's been in the works since December 2014, based on what Nomura said in the Eurogamer article (it was already in-progress when they announced the PC-PS4 port). However, not much more than that is clear. For all we know, they could've been working on it for several years now, and simply lied about it when they said before that it wasn't happening.
Since Nomura was taken off FF15(former Versus13) in September 2014, I think this is the earlier date that we can possibly attribute to the beginning of the remake, but that really matters very little when you consider comment like Wada saying it would take SE ten times longer to remake the entirety of FF7 than their work on FF13.
People call this hyperbola, but I can tell you as an indie-developer who's familiar with setting up projects from scratch, that even if it wouldn't take as long as Wada said, it would certainly take longer than 3-4 years granted the source material in relation to the standard they seem intent on keeping when producing the game (unless they off course, cut a lot of content).
I think it's silly to assume it's been in development longer than this for several reasons - even if it had, that would be pointless due to hardware advances over the times (just think about FF15).
Let's say they started the production of FF7 remake somewhere around FF13, or FF Versus 13, this would mean that they were working on an engine that is now outdated, working with animations and texture etc. that would all have to replaced in either case. They'd still have their work cut out for them, adapting and transporting it over to a new engine for the new consoles.
In short, this game has definitely not been in the works from before the FF15 announce, and Nomura's transfer.
And given the re-allocation of resources to FF15, the people who did work on this cannot possibly have been given priority over FF15, which means that they probably aren't even working as efficiently. As far as I am concerned, in light of all this, it's possible that all that exists of this remake right now, despite what Nomura is insinuating, is the trailer and the resources and the environment necessary to make that trailer. Nothing else.
Now, consider the development time of FF15 - now consider the dumps they've made in that game just to make a demo for us to play (the removal of party-play, and the different mechanics associated with the party-play such as 3rd person shooting etc.), and the relatively stream-lined and simplistic game-play of that demo -
A full and true remake of FF7 would require the creation of so many new 3D resources and animations that it would amount to a work-load so huge that even games like The Witcher 3 look like a joke in comparison. Combine that with all the scenes they would have to script from scratch in this new 3D environment, the countless hours of voice-acting and sound-production, the ridiculous amount of bug-testing necessarily to clear a game of that size, and you're easily looking at a development cycle just as long as that of FF15, even without the need for the creation of a new engine (I presume they'll be using the FF15 engine, which will speed up the process quite a lot though.)
At the end of the day - I feel fairly certain that the only way we're ever going to see this remake in time for the anniversary, is if it's a completely revamped game with not even half of the content of the original one. But let's wait and see.
I'm annoyed by what was said in the Gematsu interview, because it does seem like they'll be changing more than I'd hoped, but I'm not going to make assumptions about the length of the game's development cycle when they haven't made any meaningful statements on it.
There is a problem though when no meaningful statements are made - it more often than not implies the fact that there is nothing to say.
Considering the boost in SE stock value after the announce etc. the logical thing to do, to inspire both consumer and shareholder trust would be make a strong and confident stand, sharing what you have with the public.
The reluctance to do this, seems to be an admittance of the fact that there is nothing there of substance to share.
Consider if they had added a game-play video at the end of the trailer - and that game-play video had featured some half-assed FF15-ish combat, and bit of running around in a linear environment - it would crush the entire impact the trailer had to begin with.
The devs and publisher knows this - they'd rather not say anything, than say something that is potentially damaging at this point - and that seems to indicate that something about the project being potentially damaging to the impressions of the consumers being a distinct possibility.
If they had the goods at this point - there literally is no point in not showing it - non what so ever.
-
My gut has been in a very unpleasant knot ever since the announcement. Before E3, I figured it was just another rumor... but it turned out to be true this time. strawberries.
I'm hoping we get something of the overall quality of the VI remake(s, although the only one I've had more experience than screenshots with is the GBA one) just with pretty graphics and a proper translation. I enjoy the action in AC so as long as I have my turn-based battles and they limit it to cut-scenes, I'll actually be quite pleased with that... although I'll be just as fine without it. ...and honestly there ARE ways to make real time fights work and fit in with VII. It could avoid being a deal-breaker depending on how they implemented it.
Final Fantasy's two biggest competitors (in Japan) are Dragon Quest and Tales Of. Never been really into Dragon Quest, but Tales Of has huge plotlines with gorgeous worlds and a strawberries ton of voice acting (skits. Just... the skits alone). I love Tales Of. If you want traditional JRPGs in gorgeous 3D, the series is worth getting into. If they make a Final Fantasy VII that can stand up to the Tales Of franchise (which I'm a HUGE fan of its my favorite JRPG series - Tales of the Abyss is actually second/sometimes tied with VII as my favorite game EVER)...
Anyways, I'm not expecting anything but "its pretty" out of it. I have what I hope it is... but I also have what I expect it will be. If it ends up being what I hope for though... I'll buy a PS4. I will buy a PS4 for just this. In fact, I will fricking write a letter to Square-Enix of America thanking them (I'd write it to S-E of Japan but my Japanese isn't good enough for that). I will buy three copies of the damn game. I'm not kidding in the least. If this is the remake I'm hoping for I will literally buy a PS4, write a gushing letter to Square-Enix, and I will buy three copies of the game. I have the savings to do this and I will do this if I get the remake I've always wanted. I don't think my bank account's in any danger, though... But I will totally take photos and share here if it happens.
If it's what I'm expecting to be, I won't even buy one (and I'll know without buying it cause I have a friend that is going to buy it who understands my tastes, expectations, and can be trusted to report the game to me properly).
ALL THAT SAID... All my love and support for those of you that end up enjoying it. No matter how I end up feeling about it, someone is going to love it as the best thing ever, and I'm very glad for those that do. No fandom is mindless regardless of their tastes as far as I'm concerned - including the oft-harassed CoD fanbase. You like what you like. And everyone could do with more happy, regardless of the source (...unless the source is killing people, causing severe harm to oneself, or anything along that vein. Then maybe you should get help. :P )
Every digit crossed, I guess... Still stressed though.
-
Hey all, used to frequently lurk the forum years ago but lost my email for this .)
I think for remaking games there are (not limited to) three ways to go about it roughly:
- Update - You update the games engine: Resolution, Crispness of Image and Sound, newly rendered Videos. This is what we get with the ports
- Remake - The distinction lies on the creation of assets: If we actually create new assets that have not existed before, I would classify it as a remake, not an update. Here we see newly drawn textures, sprites, sounds and videos. Also dialogue may be updated. The game mechanics are kept. So this is what we get with ports like the Monkey Island Series Remake
- Reboot - You take the style of the game, the characters, stories and feelings and take it as base for developing from scratch. This means you not only add content in the sense that you faithfully update aspects, but you actually reimagine content. So with this, you really have a lot more creative freedom and you may even choose to diverge from the original in key aspects
So we already have an updated version, or something that square thinks is updated at least ( ;=) ).
To them, a remake as by my definition would just appeal to the same consumers as were already targeted by the update release. Instead they go the reboot route and create something with creative freedom to sell it as a new game to a new generation, yet will feel familiar to some.
Obviously, the more freedom you take with the approach, the higher the probability to disappoint fans of the original. I personally would have preferred for them to take approach 1 AND 2 for their first port of the game, just as was done for other FF titles for PS Vita, or e.g. the Monkey Island Series. What they did provide us, was a cash grab, that would not even stand up to what we as a community have produced here. Though off course this way, you could not really criticize them for changing the original now, could you?
So we can assume that they will go the creative reboot route for this one, do 3D scenes of our beloved 2D world, change layouts of places. Add places and characters. Remove characters. Do combat directly in the 3D world, without transition etcpp.
I think we should judge how well the keep the game in line, despite choosing approach 3, not clinge to the hope, that they will implement approach 2 after all.
@hian
"A full and true remake of FF7 would require the creation of so many new 3D resources and animations that it would amount to a work-load so huge [...]"
I think they already took FF15 into a style direction which in parts (!) is close to FF7. Realizing this, they formulated that they could just as well reuse and modify assets from FF15 for FF7. Utilizing this synergy, is the only way to get this project where it needs to go by 2017 and makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.
-
I think of it like the metroid games. Everything is 2D for years. Then a new studio decides to make some changes to a beloved franchise by switching to 3D and everyone raises hell about how it will ruin everything. The game is released, and though it's not like the 2d metroids before it, you still feel like you're playing a metroid game... And it's really really good.
I think that's what we need to expect with this remake. It's not going to be the original, there's too much nostalgia tied to it. But that doesn't mean it won't feel like ff7 and can't still be a great game
-
If the world map is removed then I'm pretty sure I'll never play it. Stepping onto the world map after Midgar was my best game moment ever. I can only hope they're working on improving the world map by populating it with living things and constructions and so on (I guess similar to FFXV).
-
Lol, I laugh at how pessimistic some of you can be. It;s not like the original is running away. And if you only wanted better graphics go install some mods. I hope they change shitloads except for the core story.
-
When a remake shits over the original imho it sullies it. It downgrades it. But what hurts is that a massive potential has been lost - and I think it will be lost. At the end of all this, if we don't get something that is as good as a 1997 game, what more is there to think but "fuck you Square"?
-
But it will no doubt be released on PC, and slowly programs will be made to mod it. Then all the people who see a remake as blasphemy can edit to their hearts content until it is exactly like the original. I simply don't see how this is a bad thing, or how it could garner such animosity over a trailer that showed next to nothing.
-
I won't have people showing up and insulting other members. I have worked hard to eliminate the toxicity that once plagued this forum and replace it with peace, and I intend to keep it that way. Having a strong opinion about the game is one thing, but name-calling and insult-flinging directed at other members is absolutely not welcome here. ~Covarr
-
@hian
"A full and true remake of FF7 would require the creation of so many new 3D resources and animations that it would amount to a work-load so huge [...]"
I think they already took FF15 into a style direction which in parts (!) is close to FF7. Realizing this, they formulated that they could just as well reuse and modify assets from FF15 for FF7. Utilizing this synergy, is the only way to get this project where it needs to go by 2017 and makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.
I already said as much in one of my earlier posts, but it's still not going to reduce the work-load all that much - because unless they're going to build the entire FF7 world using FF15 resources, and replace all the enemies in FF7 with FF15 enemies,
you have to remember that they need to, if they plan on making it true to the original, remake every single city in 3D, design and animate creatures, NPCs, and vehicles, and then off course, they need to script and program all the story segments throughout the world.
These things take a lot of time. Granted, FF15 took as long as it did due to the fact that they made an entire new engine for it before they could even start development, and had tons of staff and resource issues, FF7R will probably suffer similar issues due to the fact that KH3 and FF15 is still in development and probably trumps this project in terms of priority.
The only way I see this game being finished to 2017, is if they do major content cuts - for instance, cutting down on the over-world, removing mini-games, and cutting down on the amount of enemies.
I think of it like the metroid games. Everything is 2D for years. Then a new studio decides to make some changes to a beloved franchise by switching to 3D and everyone raises hell about how it will ruin everything. The game is released, and though it's not like the 2d metroids before it, you still feel like you're playing a metroid game... And it's really really good.
That's a bad analogy. Final Fantasy 7 is a 3D game, following the 2D game Final Fantasy 6. The same can be said for this transition. Which was done pretty well. It does to show that whether a transition is successful has to do with how well the producers understand the previous iterations of the series they're expanding upon, and the hearts of the fans. Granted SE's track-record at the moment, we're warranted in being skeptical of their ability to do either.
Also, a major difference here is that they're not just making "the next game in the series", they're literally remaking a game that already exists.
Furthermore, whether the game is going to "feel like" the original game, is dependent on how similar it is -
For instance, saying that FF7R will feel like FF7 even if they remove the world-map without replacing it with a proper expansive over-world, replacing the battle system with an action based system that may or may not even allow for the control of all party-members, change major story and aesthetic elements from the original doesn't even make sense.
Not saying that this will necessarily happen - but I am not going to run ahead and board the hype-train and assume this isn't going to happen considering what most FF games look like lately.
I think that's what we need to expect with this remake. It's not going to be the original, there's too much nostalgia tied to it. But that doesn't mean it won't feel like ff7 and can't still be a great game.
People need to stop making the nostalgia appeal - they're using the term wrong (you're not though, so good on you - but I still think this needs to be said, so I'll say it anyway)
The fact of the matter is that many of the original fans still play this game today (I am one of those people who pretty much replay
it every other year or so, and have done that since it's release in 97', racking up a playtime exceeding at least 400 hours by now).
Firstly, nostalgia is the emotional response of wanting to return to a past state or former time in one's life - it does not mean having a clouded judgement of that past - and secondly, if you're replaying the game, the game clearly isn't just a part of your past, but of your present as well.
I appreciate FF7 as a game even in light of modern advances in gaming, and still prefer it to most modern RPGs - and I am saying that even as I am playing it next to The Witcher 3 and Persona 4 Golden.
I agree that FF7R can be a good game in its own rights even with lots of changes - I simply think that making lots of changes is 1.) a slap in the face to all the original fans who by all rights were the ones who made the FF franchise into what it is today to begin with, and to be fair, the majority of the people who were asking for the remake to begin with, and 2.) risks making it into a bad game when you consider the direction SE has been going since the end of the PS2 era in relation to the FF franchise.
Making FF7R into a new game actually seems completely pointless -
Why make a remake for a new generation who didn't play the original, and probably don't care about it to begin with? If you're going to cater to a new generation of people who're either ignorant, or not invested in FF7, You might as well make an entirely new FF game and not take advantage of the FF7 name.
The only reason to remake FF7, literally, is for the sake of the people who asked for it - and based on the average response I've seen on forums and polls since the announcement, the vast majority of fans with a voice on the internet who were among the people who've waited for almost 2 decades for this, want the world-map and the battle-system to be largely intact.
The people who're going "I want FF15 in an Advent-Children coating", are literally a drop in the sea in comparison at this point.
Hopefully, SE will do a lot of focus-groups and testing with FF7R, so they don't once again shoot themselves in the foot and make something nobody asked for ever.
Finally, am I the only person who notice the irony in SE trying to appease fans by appealing to the fact that they have some of the same people working on the remake as on the original?
Is that somehow going to erase the fact that non of these people have made a quality FF since the end of the PS2? Is it somehow going to erase the fact that the mind behind quality FFs(Sakaguchi, who's still making quality RPGs mind you) is not involved in this project, or that Uematsu isn't going to be involved either because SE manage to botch their relationship with arguably the two most important factors in making FF games what they are?
I would actually be less worried if they'd passed this project off to entirely different people. Maybe if they'd handed it off to the people responsible for the Bravely series, or given creative control to Mistwalker studios, or even god damn Hideo Kojima (who would probably have transformed the game into something completely different, but at least it would probably be good in its own right).
Nomura though? Present day Nomura?
No thank you, SE. That was a bad move if I ever saw one.
-
I think Sakaguchi is the key part of the equation and always was. I think he was the safety valve to all the crazy ideas and directions. The rudder. And without him it's all just a mess. A bit like Star Wars when it was under the sole control of Lucas. Saying that, I was really unimpressed with Last Story's game play.
-
If I personally gave anyone a bad impression, I do apologize. If it's not what I want I just won't buy it - I believe speaking with my wallet is far more effective than speaking with my words in situations like this.
I mean I AM anxious about it due to being a huge '97!VII fan but I more or less said my piece and won't be bashing it or anything - Like I said, there are people that are going to love it even if I don't like it and I don't want to make them feel bad by ragging on something they like. There are unpopular things I love and it gets pretty upsetting seeing it constantly ragged on by others sometimes.
-
I think Sakaguchi is the key part of the equation and always was. I think he was the safety valve to all the crazy ideas and directions. The rudder. And without him it's all just a mess. A bit like Star Wars when it was under the sole control of Lucas. Saying that, I was really unimpressed with Last Story's game play.
Sakaguchi probably keep things in check, but I also think he was the primary charm-factor. Every game he makes has charm in abundance, and honestly, the biggest issue with the FF7 spin-offs is that they have non of it.
The Last Story was a hit-or-miss for most people. I generally enjoyed the game-play, but I was mostly enjoying it for the story and the characters. I did have the privilege of playing it in Japanese though, so I didn't have to suffer through the English voice-acting, and that's bound to effect my view on the game I guess.
Looking at the games he has directed or produced since quitting Square though, makes it pretty apparent where the original FF charm came from - so there is no wonder why every FF after that has been this "teenage drama"-fest reminiscent of something made by the writers of directors of Vampire Diaries.
-
Nomura though? Present day Nomura?
No thank you, SE. That was a bad move if I ever saw one.
Totally agree with this, I have zero faith in Nomura making something that will appeal to me at this point, I just hope I'm wrong. Square is at the forefront of the pretty boy edge-fest style, and Nomura's the bannerman.
-
Totally agree with this, I have zero faith in Nomura making something that will appeal to me at this point, I just hope I'm wrong. Square is at the forefront of the pretty boy edge-fest style, and Nomura's the bannerman.
My biggest issue with Nomura is that he is essentially a grown ass child when it comes to design. His designs as of late, really remind of something that would come from the same kind of person who picks usernames like XxSephirothdarkengelofdestructionxX when the sign up for forums or MMORPGS.
You know, kids who think that if you take enough "cool" things and slap them on top of each other, it becomes even cooler and more awesome, not recognizing that it just becomes really fvcking cringe-worthy and ridiculous instead.
FF7 was over the top in many ways, but it also knew how to pace itself to avoid devolving into what can only be compared to the later arches of DragonBall Z. AC and the other spin-offs threw all that out the window though, and I just can't see Nomura being able to stop himself from doing this with the remake as well.
Here's my nightmare scenario -
Cloud won't just do a one-handed flip off the train this time around, he'll probably do a tripple spinning back-flip up into the air, then use
his Buster Sword as a skate-board, and slide across the electrical train-cables, then he'll do another super-acrobatic jump and cut down five or so solider whilst still in mid-air before landing on the platform to do his famous victory pose, and looking all cool into the camera.
We'll be served with another one of these scenes probably every five minutes, and probably every single fight as well, until we grow so used to it, and so jaded, that it doesn't even phase us after about an hour of game-play, making each consecutive fight scene feel less and less rewarding to the point where we no longer even bother watching what is actual going on at the screen.
By the time Sephiroth is introduced we'll all be wondering why Sephiroth is even supposed to be such a big deal when pretty much every member of the cast can fight independently of gravity on par with Neo from the Matrix.
-
Here's my nightmare scenario -
Cloud won't just do a one-handed flip off the train this time around, he'll probably do a tripple spinning back-flip up into the air, then use
his Buster Sword as a skate-board, and slide across the electrical train-cables, then he'll do another super-acrobatic jump and cut down five or so solider whilst still in mid-air before landing on the platform to do his famous victory pose, and looking all cool into the camera.
You mean like this? :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apaYkPgaVIQ
-
.
-
You mean like this? :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apaYkPgaVIQ
God damn it all to hell.... I'd manage to phase that completely out of my memories. Thank you so much for bringing it back.
Yeah, Nomura, please don't ever touch another FF game/movie/thing ever again.
-
What I want from the ffvii remake.
1. not a remake but a sequel. Fuck having to play the same story.
2. I want to be able to play everyone. Zack, Angeal, Kadaj, Hojo, Sephiroth and anyone else already dead. Make it so that you can recruit anyone.
3. everyone's advent children outfit+ fusion sword
4. motorcycles maybe in battle as well. idk how but find a way
5. Maybe new outfits for everyone? if they suck we can always not use them.
6. I want to see Honey Bee Inn in its full ultimate glory. idc make it rated M prob will make the game better.
7. new game+ with normal, hard, and insane difficulty options.
8. turn based: honestly, I wouldn't mind if they used ffxv's battle system but leaning more towards turn based.
9. lastly I hope they dont fuck up Cloud overall appearance or anyone else's for that matter. He looks pretty derp in the new dissidia game. Just make him look exactly like in the ps3 demo or advent childern movie.
-
God damn it all to hell.... I'd manage to phase that completely out of my memories. Thank you so much for bringing it back.
Yeah, Nomura, please don't ever touch another FF game/movie/thing ever again.
This is my num 1 issue, sadly. What are the odds the remake won't have scenes like this one? Slim to none?
-
This is my num 1 issue, sadly. What are the odds the remake won't have scenes like this one? Slim to none?
To be fair, I can endure it if it's just once in a while, in the FMVs etc. My fear is that, given the advantages in hardware, the Nomura can't resist the urge to put it everywhere, including in the battle-system a la FF13.
The worst part of it is that if he does that he essentially creates something that is incongruent with the plot. I mean, I can accept Sephiroth's gravity dismissing antics, because he is supposed to be a super-soldier roided on Jenova cells as well as the Mako treatments, but when everybody else start doing it, it cheapens the strength of Sephiroth and essentially makes the statements about Sephiroth's "god-like" status seem nonsensical.
One of my favorite emotions driven by the narrative of the original was the anxiety born from chasing "the man in the black" - knowing that you had to track him down and fight him, but being worried about what would happen to you once you did. This emotion disappears completely when you are an over-powered super-saiyan-esque guy who can fly about like a bird on PCP and cut dozens of people in half without effort.
That's essentially why I couldn't stand Angeal or Genesis, or CC in general either. I mean, there is nothing to suggest in the original narrative that you had a bunch of 1st Class soldiers that were essentially awesome in much the same way as Sephiroth.
Zack went from a small-time soldier that had about 150 HP and was mesmerized by Sephiroth's fighting (if we accept that the original flashback Cloud is actually Zack) and then shot to death by a couple of Shinra grunts, to being a guy that could, at least for a while, hold his own against the legend, and even fight hundreds of grunts whilst tired after just having busted out of the Shinra Manor lab.
-
I'd say the same about all over the top scenes. They cheapen the suspension of disbelief to breaking point and also bloat up the story with unnecessary garbage. But you are right... if all characters are jumping about like in AC, the whole story collapses.
Also, even Sephiroth had a limit in the original game. Take the Temple of the Ancients... after using his super powers to zoom off repeatedly, he then collapses in front of the model tired and takes time to get back up. His powers strain him. I'm not sure many people realized that or even realize what a nice touch that is for believability. FF7 didn't take things too far and it was mindful of realism and its own internal logic.
In Advent Children he is a god with no limits... he flies cutting huge 10 ton rocks with his sword (physically impossible), while cloud also flies with him. Both are knocked into walls at 200 mph without any consideration for the story.
-
Yeah, but I can manage my expectations if it only happens once in a while, and granted that the rest of the game is good. A couple of minus points won't make me dismiss it in its entirety - although I agree I'd rather they do away with that stuff entirely.
Also, to be fair, the original had its share of extreme action as well, some of it physically impossible - such the limit breaks (Meteor-rain and Omnislash stands out in particular, especially since Cloud actually levitates in the former).
The thing with this though, was that these aspects were well paced. Omnislash wasn't made available until relatively late in the game, meaning that it made sense with Cloud's progression and development as a character. You wouldn't expect him to be as strong as Sephiroth such a short time after awakening from the tank in the Shinra mansion.
But, you're right in regards to Sephiroth. I find it funny that Sephiroth could repeatedly strike the tanks in the Nibelheim reactor without slashing them to ribbons, yet can easily cut huge falling slabs of concrete in AC...
The showdown between Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth in the reactor also shows the down to earth power-levels of characters in the game. Even mighty Sephiroth was weak to surprise attacks, and the scene where Cloud throws Sephiroth into the Mako pool through sheer tenaciousness and power of will is such a strong scene which actually works within that narrative given the fact that these characters are essentially human.
Can you really see Cloud running up and backstabbing Sephiroth granted the powerlevels of AC? Would Cloud picking him up be the sword and throwing him into a wall, thus dropping him into the Make pool even make sense?
The introduction of the Dragonball Z levels of power is probably why that scene has been retconned in later editions - which is another thing that really pissed me off.
Seriously, these scenes are some of the best in the entire game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-cbe2gDzCk
-
Yeah, but things like Omnislash are game elements. He doesn't do Omnislash in a cutscene, it's always battle. The unrealistic stuff is there because it has to be for a game to be fun (if you place realistic physics into battle mechanics, the game would not work as a game). But the story was separate to that. In Advent Children they placed the limit breaks into the story, which looked ridiculous. Most unrealistic things in the cutscenes are short and done for dramatic effect.... but they're always mindful of the greater good in storytelling. And reasons are general given for them. When Cloud survives the church fall, he is knocked out. He he is hurt. And the roof and flower bed broke his fall, along with being lucky (and later we find out he is an enhanced human). It makes things believable.
-
Yeah, but things like Omnislash are game elements. He doesn't do Omnislash in a cutscene, it's always battle. The unrealistic stuff is there because it has to be for a game to be fun (if you place realistic physics into battle mechanics, the game would not work as a game). But the story was separate to that. In Advent Children they placed the limit breaks into the story, which looked ridiculous. Most unrealistic things in the cutscenes are short and done for dramatic effect.... but they're always mindful of the greater good in storytelling. And reasons are general given for them. When Cloud survives the church fall, he is knocked out. He he is hurt. And the roof and flower bed broke his fall, along with being lucky (and later we find out he is an enhanced human). It makes things believable.
I can accept that a lot of the battle system functions like an abstraction for what is actually supposed to be happening, but I don't think that rule is consistently always true in FF7.
The final showdown between Cloud and Sephiroth in the life-stream is obviously supposed to be a story-element more-so than a battle functioning primarily as an abstraction, which leaves me to think that the Omnislash and many of the battle-elements are supposed to, at least in part, reflect what is actually going on as well.
I can imagine that if, when they made FF7, they had the know-how and experience to create 3D scenes on par with the battle-scenes in the game, that we would have gotten a lot of the action we see in the battles, outside the battles as well - so Cloud doing flurries of strikes with neon-lights going off left and right isn't really beyond imagining at that point.
The thing though, is that the over-the-top action of the FF7 battles is still stylistically speaking congruent with the general art-direction of the game - However, Cloud swinging his sword to create electrical pulse-waves is still a far cry from flying about like Superman or Son-Goku,
or Sephiroth destroying half of Midgard just by his mere presence, so the same cannot be said for Advent Children.
That's why, personally, I'd hope for some sort of reasonable mid-way solution. Generally down to earth action, with a couple of nifty moves for dramatic flair at the right moment. That's what good battle choreography is all about. Films like Kitano's Zatoichi pretty much does it perfectly, where every strike is simple, yet decisive and then you have a couple of impressive technical feats thrown in at the last moment to either
turn the tables once everything seems lost, or to finish off one of the more prominent bad guys.
This is also what FF7 did so well. The limit breaks, summons, magic etc. start out really simple and all steadily grow more dramatic.
Compare the first fire spell in FF7 with the first fire spell in any later FF game, and see the difference. Naturally, there is a graphical difference as well, but the first fire spell in FF7 is literally just this little "floff" of a flame that passes in a second. Fire 3 with the all materia on the other hand, consumes the entire screen.
That's good progression if I ever saw it.
However, if you start the game out with Cloud dying olympic level acrobatics, and lightning-speed multi-hit combo cuts, then it grows stale pretty fast, and the diminishing returns kick in very fast.
That's why the AC route is not good for game-design or lengthy stories either for that matter.
-
I'd have to disagree on the Omnislash thing. In cutscenes, it is well established that one slash is fatal. One stab kills Aerith, one slash almost kills Tifa. After the battle with Sephiroth, all that's wrong with him in the FMV is consistent with a general fight and not being slashed repeatedly at the head. In other words, the fight scene is just dramatic effect and a game element.
If Cloud could hit Sephiroth in the face with a sword in a cutscene (even once) and he did not die, but Aerith / Tifa are seriously wounded by the same, this issue would be far more obvious and annoying - and that's precisely what will end up happening in the remake. They'll break the wall that exists between the gameplay and the story, as they did in AC. The original FF7 team (or someone there) absolutely understood this.
-
I'd have to disagree on the Omnislash thing. In cutscenes, it is well established that one slash is fatal. One stab kills Aerith, one slash almost kills Tifa. After the battle with Sephiroth, all that's wrong with him in the FMV is consistent with a general fight and not being slashed repeatedly at the head. In other words, the fight scene is just dramatic effect and a game element.
If Cloud could hit Sephiroth in the face with a sword in a cutscene (even once) and he did not die, but Aerith / Tifa are seriously wounded by the same, this issue would be far more obvious and annoying - and that's precisely what will end up happening in the remake. They'll break the wall that exists between the gameplay and the story, as they did in AC. The original FF7 team (or someone there) absolutely understood this.
It's well established that ordinary humans die of one slash - since Sephiroth isn't an ordinary human, certainly not within the life-stream, I don't think that argument makes sense.
I think the more reasonable assumption to make is that the developers simply didn't think that far, nor were really all that worried about it.
You can't really compare Sephiroth to Tifa and Aerith given that Sephiroth is enhanced by Jenova cells and can regenerate pretty quickly (corroborated Lucrecia) and the fact that Sephiroth literally regains his composure mere moments after Cloud stabbed him from behind with the Buster Sword.
I think that if we were to draw a completely line between the fights and the narrative, not a blurred one (which I think would be the case in FF7), then there are a lot of things that become contrived or difficult to justify as well.
It raises questions like how soldiers armed with swords are somehow able to fight and kill people armed with automatic weapons, robots
and monsters (and if you answered magic to that question, it still wouldn't make sense, since a gun and magic would still be better than a sword and magic).
It begs the question why Cloud can survive a fall from several hundred meters up in the air, but Sephiroth cannot survive consecutive hits from a blade, or how Cloud and Co (who're mostly equipped with melee weapons) fought Ultima Weapon or Diamond Weapon, or how Barrett can hit a guy so hard he literally hits the ceiling.
I think the fact of the matter is that FF7 isn't entirely clear about what's actually going on when we're fighting, and as I said, I don't really think Squaresoft even though that far ahead either. I think it's entirely possible that without the technical limitations, that we would have seen different kinds of actions scenes both in field screens and in FMVs, and that while certain scenes were certainly made the way the were made on purpose, other grew organically out of the limitations they worked within, which is why there are discrepancies throughout the game.
No story is perfect, because no writer is perfect - and games are even more vulnerable to logical breaks than media and art like books, because they're made by large teams of people who're not always working in perfect tandem with each-other.
I think the more relevant and apt complaint about the AC style of action is that it falls prey to what we in anime-circles call "the dragonball loop", which is that the more power you endow a character with, the bigger hurdles you have to make in order to make the narrative exciting - and the longer your narrative stretches on, the more powerful you have to keep making the character, until inevitably people start breaking planets with their power.
This is bad writing because it comes a point where your character is so powerful that all conventional story-telling devices etc. cease to work properly as a result.
How does it make sense, for instance, for Cloud and Co to be trapped in an elevator and locked up by the Turks if Cloud is established to be on par with Neo from the Matrix in the first cut-scene of the remake?
This is also why the AC plot-line is so contrived - after all, Cloud already beat Sephiroth once, so he shouldn't really have any trouble doing it again - so the entire Cloud's depression thing, and geo-stigma are probably literally plot-devices made for the sole purpose of making that fight have any kind of arch of suspense.
These are real concerns that relate to the production of the remake.
However, whether Cloud can actually do an Omninslash at the end of the story when facing Sephiroth is not.
That's why some levels of flash and acrobatics can work, whilst a lot of it can't - not because flashes and acrobatics are inherently somehow incongruent with the plot (because they obviously aren't).
They can't be if Cloud is supposed to fight enormous monsters, and people wielding guns with his sword. It has to be reasonable to expect Cloud to fight at a level that is, at least to a certain degree, significantly above that of ordinary humans wielding machine-guns.
The flip side of the coin is of course, that you can't have too much of it either, because, as I've already demonstrated, that breaks the plot as well.
A balance has to be struck for the plot to work - Nomura probably isn't capable of this though, so it doesn't really matter in either case.
-
I did not play crisis core, I also did not know about this trailer.
I was bored 1.30 in and cringing 30secs in. If this happens... fern.
On the story mode/battle scene realism thing, I think the telltale scene was the kalm flashback. The only unrealistic part of the flashback, sephiroths power, was done in a controllable battle scene. Coincidence?
-
I'd say they certainly do think that far (original ff7 team, certainly not the modern!), or you'd see out of control scenes in the FMV and outside of battle (or, at the least, no explanation for the more unrealistic cut-scenes). Battle mechanics work completely different to FMV/cutscenes in FF7 and a lot of games. And that goes for a lot of RPGs.
In AC, Cloud is shot in the face and survives. It gets cited a lot in reviews as a typical absurd moment, and in FF7 that kind of thing only happens in battle. But never ever in a cutscene. In a cutscene the following happens:
Tifa almost dead from 1 slash
Tifa coma 7 days from a fall
Cloud knocked out from fall
Dyne dead from fall
Rufus dead from explosion (retcons don't count)
Pres Shinra dead from stab
Corneo dead from fall (lots of falling)
Zeng seriously injured by slash
Zax dead by firing squad
Heidegger and Scarlet killed in machine explosion (note that this is shown in a cutscene)
And in battle you see: Cloud shot repeatedly by Rufus, bitten by dogs, dolphins from Tifa's feet,
houses that come alive... and so on. Hell, Rufus "survives" your repeated sword slashes in battle and then rides off on a chopper. Clearly, the writers mean for you to interpret that as you fought him but didn't literally hit him in the face with a sword. But that's how games work. You can't plant that logic into a story.
There is most definitely a distinction. I'd say it was good writing and awareness, but it could equally have been a limit of the tech, as Covarr thinks. I am not convinced of that.
-
Sadly, I'm inclined to agree with most of the other people here. A remake would have been nice, if all they were doing was upgrades. Better graphics. Remastered (redone) music and sounds, expanded battle/materia system. However, when SE says "we're changing the story" my brain saw "we're changing the only reason people liked the game in the first place." SE's storytelling in the past decade has been pretty terrible.
I just hope they don't incorporate any of the retconned BS from the spinoffs into the remake, but they probably will.
-
I'd say they certainly do think that far (original ff7 team, certainly not the modern!), or you'd see out of control scenes in the FMV and outside of battle (or, at the least, no explanation for the more unrealistic cut-scenes). Battle mechanics work completely different to FMV/cutscenes in FF7 and a lot of games. And that goes for a lot of RPGs.
No you wouldn't, because as you should be perfectly aware of, animating that kind of stuff back in the early days of the PSX era, was extremely challenging - if not outright impossible.
Even the FMVs of fighting games like Tekken at the time used actual person on person action in their FMVs very sparingly for the same reason.
In fact, as a person who knows how this works - I'd argue that it would take more time, resources, and skill to make convincing animations in the FMVs than in the battle sequences - which should be apparant to laypeople as well simply by looking at the difference of quality in the animation of movement between FF7's fight scenes and the FMVs (hint - the latter is much less fluid, staccato and just bad)
Also, I am not denying that the mechanics work differently - Naturally Cloud and Co are not actually standing in place waiting for ATB gauges to fill up, only to attack once, and then go back into line. It's an abstraction - however, to think that it's only just an abstraction, and that there is no overlap between what happens in battles the rest of the story is IMO patently absurd.
I think the player is supposed to be able to extrapolate from the battles what is actually going on once you remove the floating numbers, the ATBs etc. And as I already said, which you didn't address in your apply, there are just as many discrepancies waiting to happen if you decide to make this 100% dedication to the field fight scenes, and nothing else. Since you didn't actually address those points I see little point in addressing your list - but I will make an exception this time -
Tifa almost dead from 1 slash
Tifa was slashed by Sephiroth wielding Masamune, which should have killed her outright, if not split her in half - especially granted that the blade travels directly through her body. However, again, there is probably a level of abstraction and technical limitation underlying this scene as well.
However, taken for what it is, and nothing more, his scene makes no sense period - again going to show that action sequences and the scenomatography of FF7 is shoddy at times.
Tifa coma 7 days from a fall
Corneo dead from fall (lots of falling)
Dyne dead from fall
Cloud knocked out from fall
You put all these falls in the same list and didn't pick up on the problems it causes for the setting of the game in how inconsistent they show the rules of the game to be?
Tifa fell as a child, and from a height so large a coma is warranted, if it should have killed her outright compared to what apparently kills other characters in the game.
Cloud survives as an adult who's been tinkered with extensively and has his fall broken by a magical flower bed (yet his inner voice said he would have gotten off with a pair of skinned knees back then, which makes even less sense) - what's Tifa's excuse?
As for Dyne, nobody knows how deep that pit went, but granted the logic behind how certain characters (even children) in the FF7 world can survive falls from mountain-tops, maybe we shouldn't even assume Dyne to be dead, just to be consistent? No, of course we shouldn't - but this would make another good example of FF7's selective physics at work.
Rufus dead from explosion (retcons don't count)
Pres Shinra dead from stab
Corneo dead from fall (lots of falling)
Zeng seriously injured by slash
Zax dead by firing squad
Heidegger and Scarlet killed in machine explosion (note that this is shown in a cutscene)
The rest becomes pretty inconsequential at this point -
Falling deaths VS survival falls in FF7 are completely inconsistent, as are melee weapon damage.
If anything, the most consistently dangerous attacks in cut-scenes seem to be gunfire, which makes it even harder to imagine how people like Cloud are supposedly fighting people with machine-guns without a certain level of over-the-top swordsmanship.
And in battle you see: Cloud shot repeatedly by Rufus, bitten by dogs, dolphins from Tifa's feet,
houses that come alive... and so on. Hell, Rufus "survives" your repeated sword slashes in battle and then rides off on a chopper. Clearly, the writers mean for you to interpret that as you fought him but didn't literally hit him in the face with a sword. But that's how games work. You can't plant that logic into a story.
And as I clearly said - there is a blurred line - I did not sat that everything that happens in battles should be taken literally, which would be a very uncharitable reading of my post, if not an outright straw-man, making that point moot.
The point here is that both the plot, and the battles, are inconsistent in their own ways and with each other - but they also tie together when it's convenient for the story-telling, such as in the Nibelheim flash-back and the final encounter between Cloud and Sephiroth in life-stream, which I take to mean that the split between the two is not entirely clear nor even consistent.
How do you think, for instance, the Highwind fight against Ultima Weapon played out? You really think that the limited amount of action outside of the battle-system and the very specific and selective use of battle scenes for dramatic effect throughout the plot is all done as the optimal choice on part of the devs, and not because it was a pain to animated anything, much less battle sequences, with the field models (so much so in fact, that the game keeps on recycling the same mannerism to the characters over and over again)?
There is most definitely a distinction. I'd say it was good writing and awareness, but it could equally have been a limit of the tech, as Covarr thinks. I am not convinced of that.
It doesn't have to be just the one or just the other. What I am trying to point out here, is that there can be cases of both.
They quite obviously chose certain scenes - after all, the reactor showdown between Cloud and Sephiroth, or Zack and Sephiroth could just as easily have been rendered in the battle engine for dramatic effect like the final showdown, so they obviously went with the field models for a reason.
I am simply saying that the large stylistic difference between the battles and the field scenes, combined with selective use of
very carefully picked battle scenes at other times, technical limitations, the nature of the Gaia world with its mix of real and fantasy, and the scope of the battles the story throws at Cloud and Co, seems to suggest that we ought to extrapolate from at least some of what is going on in the battles and imagine it as, at least, partly reflective of what the devs intended to have going on in general if they could have rendered the entire thing exactly the way they envisioned it.
I certainly don't think the writers or devs intended people like Cloud and Sephiroth to be limited to human feats of speed and strength, especially when you consider the blades they are wielding, and the way in which they wield them is already physically impossible.
In fact, with the size and length of Buster Sword, wielding it would be physically impossible even for a super-strong human being, since a swing of it would generate so much momentum it would literally launch the wielder off into the air after it, unless he was nailed to the ground, or weighed a ton or so.
Some things clearly weren't all that well-thought out period. I don't think we should credit the authors, nor the devs of FF7 too much for their work - for while it's stellar in many departments, it also has issues, like all other narratives and works of fiction ever made.
-
I'd say that the person is supposed to use common sense and also fill in the blanks for the narrative to make sense in a game, but it's helped when the writers try (which, with FF7, they do). It isn't helped when they don't (like in AC where being shot in the face is like being flicked). I don't believe the writers were oblivious to this. The game genre is always going to have unrealistic elements and absurd elements (mainly localized to actual battles, if the writers are clever), but a movie should always try to have an internal logic that is true to its fictional setting. Advent Children absolutely doesn't do this, which is one of the reasons why it is universally panned by non-gaming movie goers.
When a game is changed to a movie, some things cannot be "ported". The Weapon battles you mention cannot be ported 100%. What you can do is show magic being used or the Highwind firing at them, and change the story to accommodate them in away that is consistent with physics and the FF7 world. What you can't do is what AC did... show characters using limit breaks, jumping up 100 feet into the air, and attacking these monsters in the most unrealistic way there is.
You can do that in a game battle. You cannot do that in a movie. They are two completely different genres.
This isn't limited to games. If you watch the Red Letter Media review on "Baby's Day Out" you'll see the same criticism. The problem there was that cartoon slapstick was placed into the REAL world we live in concerning a baby wandering around busy streets and dangerous situations - to the point that the story absolutely collapsed. Because cartoons and a real world based fiction are two different genres. It CAN work if the comedy is designed around slapstick (Laurel and Hardy), but not to the extent that Baby's Day Out is asking you to suspend disbelief.
-
I'd say that the person is supposed to use common sense and also fill in the blanks for the narrative to make sense in a game, but it's helped when the writers try (which, with FF7, they do). It isn't helped when they don't (like in AC where being shot in the face is like being flicked). I don't believe the writers were oblivious to this. The game genre is always going to have unrealistic elements and absurd elements (mainly localized to actual battles, if the writers are clever), but a movie should always try to have an internal logic that is true to its fictional setting. Advent Children absolutely doesn't do this, which is one of the reasons why it is universally panned by non-gaming movie goers.
Last time I checked, non-gaming movie goers panned it for its incoherent plot, and its reliance on the viewer already being familiar with the setting and the cast - not the battle-scenes, which as far as I remember, are the very thing being praised by non-gaming audiences as well as the most of the gaming audience as well.
The people who panned that aspect of the movie, were generally FF7 purists like you and me for plot-related reasons, and people who don't like over-the-top battle visuals all that much in either case.
When a game is changed to a movie, some things cannot be "ported". The Weapon battles you mention cannot be ported 100%. What you can do is show magic being used or the Highwind firing at them, and change the story to accommodate them in away that is consistent with physics and the FF7 world. What you can't do is what AC did... show characters using limit breaks, jumping up 100 feet into the air, and attacking these monsters in the most unrealistic way there is.
This is rationalizing - you're not making a coherent point anymore. As much as I agree that certain things cannot be well ported, those things would be that which is inherently tied to the game-play. Being able to fight the weapons relying on personal skill, or generally unrealistic combat is not one of them. Unrealistic combat can be coherent with itself - your complaint here, as is apparent with the example you keep raising, can be summed up as a complaint about inconsistency - it's not really central to whether the fighting is over the top or not, but whether the battle scenarios in FF7 make sense as a part of the plot.
I would argue that they have to be, when you consider the enemies FF7 constantly pits against Cloud and Co, which they supposedly defeat.
If Cloud and Co can defeat the Air-Buster, the Bottom Swell, or the Materia keeper, then they're already fighting at a level far beyond the staccato and slow strikes of the events in the field scenes, and the Weapon fights are merely an extension of that.
I think it's obvious that we're supposed to extrapolate the party's ability to find enormous monsters, and there is no reason to think this cannot be done neither in game nor in movie (in fact it's done often in both) without particular appeals to Highwind firing cannons etc.
I'll grant you magic though, and the Weapon fights could easily be realized by pitting them against summons etc.
You can do that in a game battle. You cannot do that in a movie. They are two completely different genres..
However, this entire line of reasoning is a case of moving the goal-post and largely irrelevant, because we were discussing the change of art-direction in the remake, which is a game, not a movie, and we were discussing the inconsistency in the combat choreography within the original game depending on the scene, which again, is a game not a movie.
Or are you making the argument that the field scenes in FF7 should be treated like a movie, while the battle scenes should be treated as a game?
In either case, it's patently obvious that many movies, series, anime's etc use over the top combat where people smash buildings etc. so that's not a real concern. The real concern is whether or not the building smashing makes sense in the narrative, and in FF7 it mostly doesn't. However, it also wouldn't make sense for Cloud not to be able to over-power machine-gun wielding grunts using his sword, and the combat reflects this, and thus I won't be bothered if the remake cut-scenes reflect this as well (as long as it is done with respect to the power-gap between him and other characters throughout the game).
This isn't limited to games. If you watch the Red Letter Media review on "Baby's Day Out" you'll see the same criticism. The problem there was that cartoon slapstick was placed into the REAL world we live in concerning a baby wandering around busy streets and dangerous situations - to the point that the story absolutely collapsed. Because cartoons and a real world based fiction are two different genres. It CAN work if the comedy is designed around slapstick (Laurel and Hardy), but not to the extend that Baby's Day Out is asking you to suspend disbelief.
But how does this relate to what we're talking about here? We're talking about a game, which is pretty absurd by any standard, being remade, once again, as a game - not transitioning to a live-action movie.
To illustrate -
Omnislash as a technique is no more grating or jarring to the FF7 narrative than characters selectively surviving huge falls, or Cloud and Co fighting and besting large monsters and robotos, or Sephiroth summoning a meteor to make himself a god, or countless of other strange scenes.
The reason AC is jarring is because the action doesn't make sense, not because it is over-the-top.
The reason it would be jarring in the remake, is because you know, just as well as I, that Cloud will be doing Omnislash-like stuff from the very
first 10 minutes of the game, and that's what's going to create a "dragonball loop" and start begging questions down the line when the devs and writers have to create contrived plot-devices to explain sudden shifts in strength, or weaknesses.
The original FF7 didn't have that issue, even if we accept the more extreme of the battle scenarios, or skills/limit breaks - because the progression of these elements is reasonably well-paced, and they increase in tune with the general flow of the narrative.
Cloud isn't fighting Weapons from day 1, he slowly reaches that point together with his team-mates after having gradually fought
more and more drastic enemies and gained more and more materia. And even with all that being said, there is nothing
to suggest that Cloud would have to levitate to the degree of AC, or break buildings to make the weapon fights work -
as I said, they have materia and perhaps other means.
The Monster Hunter Series has pulled off humans versus giant monsters quite well from a choreographic perspective for
quite some time, without appealing to super-saiyan modes.
-
It's pretty clear we're going to disagree on this particular point (mostly - parts of your post are agreeing), but I'll sum my position up as this: I, and many other people, cannot suspend disbelief if the fiction breaks its own internal logic. FF7 original didn't go too far, too often, and allowed me to suspend my disbelief or have the freedom to interpret the story in a way that made sense (for the most part). Advent Children did not, and the remake very likely won't either, for the reasons I stated. The original script could have had Cloud totally unharmed from his fall through that church roof with no explanation given or surprise at surviving the fall given. If that had been the case, the fiction would have been lazy and poorer for it, but the writers DID give a reason and they weren't lazy. A good fiction does not have to make perfect sense or have ultra realism, but it does need to be believable up to a point in order for most people to accept it - even when that fiction is game-based.
A writer can make anything happen if he/she wants to, but not if they want a story that people can respect - and it's this part where AC fails entirely, and where, I believe, the remake will disintegrate as well.
This is a separate issue to the art design problem, but since the new art style is largely a result of them wanting to add eye candy for the sake of it (well, we all know it's also because of how much people rate graphics in importance these days), it will inevitably lead to the issue above... whacky out of control CGI scenes that break the fiction.
-
Yeah, I think that's pretty clear - but it's been an interesting conversation in either case.
And, I agree with your general sentiment - I just think you're making a special exception for FF7 due to your attachment to it (and I am not saying this is unreasonable - it's my favorite FF game for a reason).
Personally, I found the scene were Cloud falls to be very jarring. Unlike you, I don't think the creators provided a good reason for why Cloud survives unscathed (blacking out for a couple of seconds or whatever, hardly counts as being damaged, especially considering his total recovery after waking up), except by asking us to accept it because he "was in soldier", until the narrative makes a habit out of having people survive huge falls with the flashback in Calm, and you start getting the vibe that physics and physiology are much more loose in Gaia than on Earth.
I would make the argument that what makes good fiction is consistency, and that's it. It doesn't matter how unrealistic it is - it matters that the rules of the world are consistent with themselves - that is to say that there is a system to the aspects that are unrealistic by our standards.
I never really though of the in-game battle system mechanics as being inconsistent with the field scenes because the field scenes truly break with conventional realism quite often, whether we're talking about people falling, or the physical feats that the cast regularly must perform whether on screen or off.
As for the art-style of the remake - I really don't understand why they couldn't have opted for some sort of cell-shade, or toonish style instead. It's perfectly possible to have great graphics that don't go in the direction of realism, and that would argue be the best way to keep the game true to the source material.
Although I am not a fan of the changes made to the original plot, Last Order is probably the best FF7 spin-off in terms of the art-direction. If they'd made a game look like that, which is perfectly possible, I'd be more inclined to be positive about the remake.
-
I am very interested in two things.
How much interpretation we will be allowed in a full HD 3D Voice over remake. I mean things like blacking out and hearing voices. In text you think they are your own voice at first, later you are unsure, it could be Sephiroth, etc. How will this be portrayed, will these sorts of scenes be lost. I am concerned that a lot of games these days are heavily tutorial focused and often lead you along.
How will the remake cope with the new feel of the game. This point came out of a conversation with my brother yesterday. A lot of the plot and scenes from the 97 game were pretty close to the bone and though the devs were trying to make it quite serious (I think) it often came out cute. For example Barret being angry, waving his arms in the air. Or the already discussed cloud in a dress scene.
To be honest I hope they go for serious and realistic. This will make it cringy at times. Cloud convincing people that he is a whore... I really hope it makes my skin crawl.
Will they, in the modern day culture, dare to make the terrorists the heroes and soldiers the enemy?
edit: grammar
-
.
-
They should definitely allow you to turn off voice acting, Sunz. And it's such an EASY thing to allow, as well. I can imagine that the VA will get annoying in parts or ruin scenes that people had imagined a certain way and, if there is no way to disable it, that becomes a big issue.
As for "hero" and "enemy", the game later shows Barrett repentant about what he did, and Tifa explaining that what they did can never be forgiven. So it's not like the original game condoned terrorism.
-
To change the pace a bit, and ask a bit more difficult question - If we discard the idea of this being a remake, and more of a reboot, with pretty much everything being different except the general gist of the story, the cast and the setting - what would it take for you people to think of it as a good game on its own merits, and play/enjoy it as such?
-
To change the pace a bit, and ask a bit more difficult question - If we discard the idea of this being a remake, and more of a reboot, with pretty much everything being different except the general gist of the story, the cast and the setting - what would it take for you people to think of it as a good game on its own merits, and play/enjoy it as such?
I love the original game because it go so much right (with exception of Cait Sith, I hate that guy). Changing everything I like just wouldn't work... At the least, the reboot story would have to be a serious gritty tale like the original without the crazy CGI nonsense. If it was made with a serious intent to be more adult (without Cait would be a bonus!) and less for the fanboy screamers, then I could respect it and give it a chance. I respect a fiction when the writers care enough to appreciate the intelligence of the viewer and are creating art that has a soul. So if effort had been placed into the reboot, I'd definitely give it a chance. But the second I saw a scene where Zax is dodging 1000 soldiers and smiling at the camera, the game would go off.
-
I'll play it and probably enjoy it, but I don't really trust them to do the story right in a reboot. One of the biggest criticisms people had for Advent Children was that it didn't make any sense if you hadn't played the game, and I can definitely see them remaking that mistake even in a reboot, which really should be able to stand on its own. I mean, that wouldn't be a problem for me at all, or likely anyone here, as we've all played the original and many of us have played the entire compilation, but it would definitely be an objective problem considering the sheer number of people who will be entering the FF7 universe for the first time.
-
I'm not caught up with the thread yet, but I'll leave this here: SE have become too big of a company to create any game with a soul. Development is not a passion driven (perhaps on a individual level, but not on a global level) process. It's business minded. Your hard pressed to find any true good games that spawn from this mentality. SE and other AAA companies tries to create the new Justin Bieber of gaming with each title, not a marble that will stand the test of time. </rant repeat>
I dare SE to prove me wrong. The shareholders wish that I'm right.
-
Hey guys!
I'm back from my two weeks trip. What did I miss?
:mrgreen:
-
I love the original game because it go so much right (with exception of Cait Sith, I hate that guy). Changing everything I like just wouldn't work... At the least, the reboot story would have to be a serious gritty tale like the original without the crazy CGI nonsense. If it was made with a serious intent to be more adult (without Cait would be a bonus!) and less for the fanboy screamers, then I could respect it and give it a chance. I respect a fiction when the writers care enough to appreciate the intelligence of the viewer and are creating art that has a soul. So if effort had been placed into the reboot, I'd definitely give it a chance. But the second I saw a scene where Zax is dodging 1000 soldiers and smiling at the camera, the game would go off.
These are my minimum requirements to bother playing this game if they decide to change things up completely :
- If they make a real reboot in terms of the story, I think I'd like to see them experiment a bit with some of the original concepts for the game - like making it a bit more like an old-school detective/noir kind of narrative presentation. I'd like them to make sure that the presentation of the story is more streamlined in the sense that integral story moments that were only present as obscure flash-backs in the original, now happen as you progress throughout the main story.
The could also flesh out the characters by adding more "moments"/skits/banter along the road.
- If they absolutely must go with an action system, I'd like an action-ATB hybrid system, where for instance, movement/dodges and attacks are freely available, whilst menu devices like materias, items etc. could only be used upon a full ATB gauge, and where opening the extended attack menu, or changing character stops/pauses the flow of combat to allow for deliberate tactical choices.
- If they scrap the world-map, they need to create some sort of large over-world that allows for exploration on par with the original game - no matter how unlikely or how difficult that may be.
There are also some sins for me, that would make me disqualify the game entirely, reboot or not :
- No party play. If the game goes the FF15 route with your party always being under NPC control, I am not bothering with it.
- If the remove meaningful exploration by using a quick-travel map system like FF10, I am not bothering with it.
- If they opt for an entirely action driven fighting system that doesn't allow for dynamic and strategic party battles
- If they start screwing with the soundtrack, and only use a few of the iconic tunes for certain scenes (like in FF15) and the rest
entirely Uematsu-free.
- If the game has your typical Nomura presentation.
As a side-note -
I liked Cait Sith's design, but I felt that his entire being was somewhat of a poor plot-device. Since it's not a real person, but a remote controlled robot controlled by Reeve, it starts begging questions like if Reeve can spare all that time on using that robot, then why the hell can't he just join your party in the flesh once his cover is blown?
Or, why is Cait Sith a recurring character in the FF7 extended universe, seeing as Reeve would have no reason to keep on using that god damn robot once his true identity was known to Cloud and Co.?
Some of the extended universe titles try to back-peddle by making it so that the cat is not being directly controlled but has it's own personality or A.I and is simply receiving orders from Reeve, but this is never expanded upon nor mentioned in the original, and ignores the fact that in the original script, Cait Sith and Reeve speak with the same dialect (Kansai ben) and are indistinguishable in terms of mannerisms etc.
I'm not caught up with the thread yet, but I'll leave this here: SE have become too big of a company to create any game with a soul. Development is not a passion driven (perhaps on a individual level, but not on a global level) process. It's business minded. Your hard pressed to find any true good games that spawn from this mentality. SE and other AAA companies tries to create the new Justin Bieber of gaming with each title, not a marble that will stand the test of time. </rant repeat>
I dare SE to prove me wrong. The shareholders wish that I'm right.
Look up Bravely Default or Bravely Second to see SE games with soul.
You forget that SE is now a publishing company, and that a lot of the games they publish are not produced in-house, and that even some of the games that are, are being produced by smaller teams for smaller markets, who therefore don't work with the same constraints as their AAA departments.
-
Hey guys!
I'm back from my two weeks trip. What did I miss?
:mrgreen:
SE announced a FF7 Remake at the E3 Sony Press Conference, so we're having a conversation on how glorious the game will turn out.
Errr wait, that's a little off. More like, how glorious the game could turn out IF....
Errr wait, that's not all of it. More like also, how glorious the game will not turn out beacause....
You have a lot of reading to catch up on :-P
-
SE announced a FF7 Remake at the E3 Sony Press Conference, so we're having a conversation on how glorious the game will turn out.
Errr wait, that's a little off. More like, how glorious the game could turn out IF....
Errr wait, that's not all of it. More like also, how glorious the game will not turn out beacause....
You have a lot of reading to catch up on :-P
I think you summed it up pretty nicely though :P
Personally, I'm really looking forward to it. Of course, I'm already aware that it may not conform my own vision of a remake. Additionally, I think the announcement pretty much cans the project I was leading with Team Avalanche (IMO there's little sense for me to pursue a graphical overhaul with my very limited means if SE deploys the resources for it) - I guess I'll just have to find something else to do with my time :)
[My 2 cents]
- For numerous reasons, I believe that a full-fledged remake cannot be a simple overhaul of the original. Graphics have to be overhauled, animations have to be overhauled, gameplay has to be modernized (IMO turn-based is obsolete), and the story has to be edited. What is essential is to preserve the "spirit" of the original game. But how do you do that? That's the big problem, because everyone has its own interpretation of what the spirit of FF7 should be like.
- However, speaking of the "spirit" of FF7, I believe that what was shown in the trailer was promising. Midgar was completely revamped, but you could still feel the atmosphere of the dystopian metropolis, with a very strong "Blade Runner" vibe to it. Additionally, we got glimpses of some details (such as the playground slide in the Sector 5 slums) which rather suggest a faithful re-creation of the environments. So far, so good.
- I strongly disagree with the notion that advanced graphics are detrimental to storytelling. As everybody seems to agree with the fact that the golden era of Final Fantasy games were in the PS1 times, remember that these games had such an impression on us back then because they looked amazing. Visuals are essential to get the player immersed in these fantastic worlds (or to display emotions).
- I do not think it is fair to say that there's no passion in the gaming industry anymore. Productions such as The Last of Us or the Witcher 3 show how much heart was put into these games. Heck, even when watching the active time reports related to FFXV, you should see it. Saying "developers are lazy" when these guys are probably above 50 hr/week on it, it's disrespectful at the very least.
- I'm aware there's a lot of potential for derailment, and it's out of our hands, now. And even if they manage in the future to pull off the best remake which could ever be made, it will make some people unhappy. However, part of the reasons why I'm on the "optimistic bandwagon" is that it seems like SE listens: how they turned around FFXIV and how they made the survey on the FFXV demo are signs of that.
[/My 2 cents]
So, in summary, Yay :)
-
Very true. Despite my criticisms I remain optimistic. I am one of the loud community that begged for a remake and I have got it. What moral standing can I have against it?
This does not make me stop wishing that they would open up preorder tomorrow for £10, take the 20mil and give it half to sakaguchi and half to Uematsu to join the team old bad blood forgotten.
BUT, square does listen and I am excited for it. Shame though my contributions never made it to the game :'(
-
SE have become too big of a company to create any game with a soul. Development is not a passion driven (perhaps on a individual level, but not on a global level) process. It's business minded. Your hard pressed to find any true good games that spawn from this mentality. SE and other AAA companies tries to create the new Justin Bieber of gaming with each title, not a marble that will stand the test of time. </rant repeat>
Unfortunately big companies don't care. The gaming market is so big now that you can release an utter piece of garbage, stamp "EA" or "Blizzard" or whatever brand on it, and it's guaranteed to make way more than it cost to produce.
Most people who call themselves gamers aren't. They're just posers trying to hop on the "gaming is cool" bandwagon. Real gamers actually do research on games before they buy them to make sure they're high quality. Case and point: League of Legends and Call of Duty are two of the biggest games in the world, and they're both awful.
-
- For numerous reasons, I believe that a full-fledged remake cannot be a simple overhaul of the original. Graphics have to be overhauled, animations have to be overhauled, gameplay has to be modernized (IMO turn-based is obsolete), and the story has to be edited. What is essential is to preserve the "spirit" of the original game. But how do you do that? That's the big problem, because everyone has its own interpretation of what the spirit of FF7 should be like.
This is irrelevant unless you presuppose that the spirit of FF7 is entirely subjective, which it isn't. The experience of it is, but the game is made up of individual components that have specific qualities. Saying that AC is true to the spirit of the original, when it's radically changed the art-style for instance, is a pretty meaningless statement to make.
It's very easy to preserve the spirit of the original, if that's what you set out to do - let's not pretend otherwise. The real issue here, is whether or not it makes sense for SE to preserve the spirit of the original, if doing so runs the risk of harming sales for a new iteration of the game that is going to be extremely costly to make.
I agree - this is a reboot, more than a remake. But let's not pretend that a reboot is going to be true to the original in any meaningful sense of the term in regards to anything but the rough strokes, such as the general story, setting, and cast.
- However, speaking of the "spirit" of FF7, I believe that what was shown in the trailer was promising. Midgar was completely revamped, but you could still feel the atmosphere of the dystopian metropolis, with a very strong "Blade Runner" vibe to it. Additionally, we got glimpses of some details (such as the playground slide in the Sector 5 slums) which rather suggest a faithful re-creation of the environments. So far, so good.
I though the new rendition of Midgard was pretty nice in its own right, but I really don't think it makes sense to say that it's true to the spirit of the original, because the original Midgard was not just a dystopian metrolopolis - it was also filled with vibrant colors, and quirky throwbacks to real-life 90's Tokyo, and anime/street-fashion influences - whilst the new one seems to be going for a much more subdued post 2005 architectural spin, and a much more "realistic"(western) look to it with the exception of the road-way systems, and the trains.
Not saying it's bad - but it's certainly not much like the original except in its basic concept.
- I strongly disagree with the notion that advanced graphics are detrimental to storytelling. As everybody seems to agree with the fact that the golden era of Final Fantasy games were in the PS1 times, remember that these games had such an impression on us back then because they looked amazing. Visuals are essential to get the player immersed in these fantastic worlds (or to display emotions).
Nobody said this though - and besides, advanced graphics does not equal realistic graphics. There are plenty of cartoony games that have extremely advanced graphics. Realism is a style, not a sign of graphical fidelity or quality. The argument people are making is that the new art direction is going to jar with the original narrative and plot, unless they change things up - and chances are that the things they end up changing will not necessarily be good for the plot, and it certainly doesn't bode well for how true it's going to be to the original (which can pan out either way - good or bad).
The PS1 games had very good graphics for their times, but with the exception of FF8, the other PS1 FF games all went for a more stylistic look, rather than a realistic one, and their character designs, and story scenarios reflect this. The two are therefore tied together, so if you change one, the other must too for the sake of consistency.
- I do not think it is fair to say that there's no passion in the gaming industry anymore. Productions such as The Last of Us or the Witcher 3 show how much heart was put into these games. Heck, even when watching the active time reports related to FFXV, you should see it. Saying "developers are lazy" when these guys are probably above 50 hr/week on it, it's disrespectful at the very least.
The Last of Us shouldn't be put next to the Witcher in this regard, seeing as The Last of Us is an enormous AAA production that is emblematic of exactly what a lot of people don't like about the AAA industry (bland game-play that ends of being a "jack of all trades, master of non") whilst the Witcher started out as the first-time a passion product from a relatively small, Polish company.
Besides, just because each single component in a development cycle is developed with care and lots of time, does not mean that the entire product isn't lazy or shoddy. That's a fallacy of composition right there.
It goes without saying that the person on the floor who makes the animations for a character or something to that effect is working their ass off, and probably really invested in that work.
However, when the game itself has been compromised by publishing pressure, and financial concerns, that's going to take its toll on the finished product regardless.
The writers and producers might have great intentions, but when they're working within a corporate structure that rewards recycling of old material and puts out dictates based on way too broad focus groups and market studies enforced on threats of withdrawal of founding, then it's difficult not to view the end-product as passionless.
If anything, if most developers had true passion for their medium and cared about making a product as true to their vision as possible, they'd take their projects to crowd-funding platforms and bypass the greedy publishing mafia altogether - which, many of them have started to do.
- I'm aware there's a lot of potential for derailment, and it's out of our hands, now. And even if they manage in the future to pull off the best remake which could ever be made, it will make some people unhappy. However, part of the reasons why I'm on the "optimistic bandwagon" is that it seems like SE listens: how they turned around FFXIV and how they made the survey on the FFXV demo are signs of that.
[/My 2 cents]
So, in summary, Yay :)
I will grant you this though - SE, especially those in the department dealing with FF products have become better, it seems, at listening to their fans.
In the case of FF7R though - my worry is that the real fans of the original games don't actually make up enough of the market they need to cover, to make it worth listening to them to begin with.
They're more likely to listen to the "average consumer" instead, and make this a game for people who want this game to essentially be a playable version of Advent Children, not FF7 - and with that being said, that's not a game I would be interested in playing, nor a game I think would be very good.
But, we'll see. Again, it might become the next best thing since sliced bread.
It's still better to go into this negative, and be positively surprised, than to go into this positively and get negatively surprised - especially after you dished out 60 bucks for it, and maybe even bought an entire console for it.
-
This is irrelevant unless you presuppose that the spirit of FF7 is entirely subjective, which it isn't. The experience of it is, but the game is made up of individual components that have specific qualities. Saying that AC is true to the spirit of the original, when it's radically changed the art-style for instance, is a pretty meaningless statement to make.
It's very easy to preserve the spirit of the original, if that's what you set out to do - let's not pretend otherwise. The real issue here, is whether or not it makes sense for SE to preserve the spirit of the original, if doing so runs the risk of harming sales for a new iteration of the game that is going to be extremely costly to make.
I agree - this is a reboot, more than a remake. But let's not pretend that a reboot is going to be true to the original in any meaningful sense of the term in regards to anything but the rough strokes, such as the general story, setting, and cast.
It doesn't seem like we would use terms such as "spirit" or "true to the original" with the same ideas in mind. IMO, AC isn't "true to the original" because of its plot and character development, not because of its art style.
I though the new rendition of Midgard was pretty nice in its own right, but I really don't think it makes sense to say that it's true to the spirit of the original, because the original Midgard was not just a dystopian metrolopolis - it was also filled with vibrant colors, and quirky throwbacks to real-life 90's Tokyo, and anime/street-fashion influences - whilst the new one seems to be going for a much more subdued post 2005 architectural spin, and a much more "realistic"(western) look to it with the exception of the road-way systems, and the trains.
Not saying it's bad - but it's certainly not much like the original except in its basic concept.
I do believe it's true to the original, personally. I don't think that Midgar is so "filled with neons and vibrant colors". Some elements are (Honey Bee Inn, Don Corneo's mansion), but many scenes are made with piles of rusted beams and worn corrugated sheets (I've been examining the Sector 5 scenes for a while).
Nobody said this though - and besides, advanced graphics does not equal realistic graphics. There are plenty of cartoony games that have extremely advanced graphics. Realism is a style, not a sign of graphical fidelity or quality. The argument people are making is that the new art direction is going to jar with the original narrative and plot, unless they change things up - and chances are that the things they end up changing will not necessarily be good for the plot, and it certainly doesn't bode well for how true it's going to be to the original (which can pan out either way - good or bad).
I do believe that the original art style for the fields was aiming at a "realistic" rendition of the environments, with the technological limitations of the times (lighting techniques, shading techniques, limited color palette, etc.). In my opinion, the chibis of the original game were jarring, and I always thought it needed to be addressed. With that in mind, I don't think that a "realistic" art direction is detrimental, or vastly deviating from the spirit of the original.
The PS1 games had very good graphics for their times, but with the exception of FF8, the other PS1 FF games all went for a more stylistic look, rather than a realistic one, and their character designs, and story scenarios reflect this. The two are therefore tied together, so if you change one, the other must too for the sake of consistency.
Sure, I appreciate that I don't really know how the Choco/Mog summon will turn out with realistic art style :)
The Last of Us shouldn't be put next to the Witcher in this regard, seeing as The Last of Us is an enormous AAA production that is emblematic of exactly what a lot of people don't like about the AAA industry (bland game-play that ends of being a "jack of all trades, master of non") whilst the Witcher started out as the first-time a passion product from a relatively small, Polish company.
The Last of Us being emblematic of what people don't like about AAA industry? Sorry, I can't agree with that.
Besides, just because each single component in a development cycle is developed with care and lots of time, does not mean that the entire product isn't lazy or shoddy. That's a fallacy of composition right there.
It goes without saying that the person on the floor who makes the animations for a character or something to that effect is working their ass off, and probably really invested in that work.
However, when the game itself has been compromised by publishing pressure, and financial concerns, that's going to take its toll on the finished product regardless.
The writers and producers might have great intentions, but when they're working within a corporate structure that rewards recycling of old material and puts out dictates based on way too broad focus groups and market studies enforced on threats of withdrawal of founding, then it's difficult not to view the end-product as passionless.
If anything, if most developers had true passion for their medium and cared about making a product as true to their vision as possible, they'd take their projects to crowd-funding platforms and bypass the greedy publishing mafia altogether - which, many of them have started to do.
In that respect, what I'm rather hoping for is that the devs of the remake of FF7 won't be constrained by some kind of "20th anniversary deadline". I believe we would agree that they'd take their time to polish this one (it's not like waiting for 1 or 2 more years will matter, and for the anecdote, it is actually possible to polish a turd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI)).
Otherwise, I believe that the comparison "Greedy publishing companies" vs "Friendly crowd-funding platforms" is a lot less "black & white" world than what you described.
I will grant you this though - SE, especially those in the department dealing with FF products have become better, it seems, at listening to their fans.
In the case of FF7R though - my worry is that the real fans of the original games don't actually make up enough of the market they need to cover, to make it worth listening to them to begin with.
They're more likely to listen to the "average consumer" instead, and make this a game for people who want this game to essentially be a playable version of Advent Children, not FF7 - and with that being said, that's not a game I would be interested in playing, nor a game I think would be very good.
But, we'll see. Again, it might become the next best thing since sliced bread.
It's still better to go into this negative, and be positively surprised, than to go into this positively and get negatively surprised - especially after you dished out 60 bucks for it, and maybe even bought an entire console for it.
Well, the FF7 community of "real fans" is so broad that it exhibits the signs of the unpleasable fanbase (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase). If you prefer to be negative so that you won't get disappointed, I can appreciate that. But if people decide to dislike it, or be dissatisfied by a product "for the masses" in order to assert some kind of intellectual superiority, I don't find it very constructive.
I'll be remaining reasonably optimistic, but that's just me. If the remake doesn't turn out well, I'll still have plenty of other games to play.
-
AC isn't true to the original because of its crazy endless battle sequences and CGI fests - and I'd say that is an art style also? or at the least, CGI seems to make developers go that route.
-
Look up Bravely Default or Bravely Second to see SE games with soul.
You forget that SE is now a publishing company, and that a lot of the games they publish are not produced in-house, and that even some of the games that are, are being produced by smaller teams for smaller markets, who therefore don't work with the same constraints as their AAA departments.
lol, yes, case in point. Publishing =/= developing. When I say "from" I mean it as "developed by".
Well, the FF7 community of "real fans" is so broad that it exhibits the signs of the unpleasable fanbase (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase). If you prefer to be negative so that you won't get disappointed, I can appreciate that. But if people decide to dislike it, or be dissatisfied by a product "for the masses" in order to assert some kind of intellectual superiority, I don't find it very constructive.
I'll be remaining reasonably optimistic, but that's just me. If the remake doesn't turn out well, I'll still have plenty of other games to play.
I try to have realistic expectation when it comes to new FF titles (or anything). The way I think these game will turn out, as a whole, is something I probably will not like (which, of course, is based on recent things SE have made and the general direction they seem to go). I don't choose it per se. The reality of it just don't favour me if you will. That does not mean I'm depressed/trying being negative or anything.
-
AC isn't true to the original because of its crazy endless battle sequences and CGI fests - and I'd say that is an art style also? or at the least, CGI seems to make developers go that route.
In my opinion, these crazy endless battle sequences have their origin in the storyboarding/script, not CGI. You could very well execute crazy endless battle sequences with a drawn anime style.
-
In that respect, what I'm rather hoping for is that the devs of the remake of FF7 won't be constrained by some kind of "20th anniversary deadline". I believe we would agree that they'd take their time to polish this one (it's not like waiting for 1 or 2 more years will matter.
This is the clincher for me. I think the entire fanbase would agree that they shouldn't rush it.
I'll be remaining reasonably optimistic, but that's just me. If the remake doesn't turn out well, I'll still have plenty of other games to play.
And a Nibelheim to get back to work on ;)
-
No matter what the remake ends up being, I personally will win.
If it's a fantastic remake, I'll definitely enjoy playing that in 2025 when I can afford a PS4.
If it's a good remake, I might play it and enjoy that.
If it's a bad remake, I will certainly enjoy pouring metric tons of salt into people's wounds.
If it's a horrible remake, see above but for an unlimited amount of time.
But most of all, I have zero investment and expectations because having them is one sure way to be disappointed no matter what.
-
The only gripe I will most likely have with this remake is the voice acting. I truly hope that they spend more than $200 of their overall project budget on a decent voice acting director. Advent Children in English made me cringe. Other than that, I am sure they will do a great job. Whether that means the remake closely resembles the original or otherwise. Part of me wants them to take a lot of creative license story-wise and do some things differently, seeing how we've combed through the original with a fine-tooth comb already.
-
What is that ? I look away for a few days and when I'm back there's suddenly a remake in the oven ? ..That's your fault Dan ?
Maybe I should leave and come back again and Half Life 3 will be out.
I've first heard of it yesterday on euronews, I was shocked x) (about FFVII, not HL)
Well....I don't know. I was WAYYY more astonished, amazed and excited when I discovered Qhimm and what mods can do. For me, Qhimm allows for an enhanced FF VII, and the remake will be something like another kind of FF VII than the one we know. If I want FF VII, I play FF VII, and if I want another kind of FF VII I'll play the remake (if I like it). That's the way I feel it, so no real expectations. I'd just wish the remake will be a balanced and subtle game ( that's asking for too much? ).. and please, no stupid gameplay either. If that, I may like it, even if it is a bit far away from the FF VII we love.
But it just cannot be FF VII. It is made and cannot be remade without becomming something different.
And why not put a VR device on the face and feel something different, never as great as what we played when we were teenagers, but a new and still enjoyable experience....maybe.. I just hope it won't be a hollow game.
And if it is AC-like, that may give me a reason to play the spin-offs. But the true FF VII will still hold its very place in that sweet corner of my mind, and remain what it is.
And also, will be curious to see what content the game will bring to mod 98 FF VII.
-
I wouldn't mind a new battle system (called "Modern" mode or something similar) in the style similar to FFXV or FFXIII, but I would like to be able to switch to other characters at any time to control. The characters that are being controlled by the AI, fall into the style specific to them such as Tifa acrobatically applying various basic melee attacks by jumping off of walls, etc - using her environment. The style of the attack when the player selects it, would also be randomised the same way the game decides the style of the attack for the AI. In conjunction with that, players could set commands for the AI characters to give them specific roles just like in FFXII. Also maybe the ability to swap out characters like in FFX and make battles more tactical to take advantage of this feature.
With that, if people didn't want to play a modern battle mode, then there could be a "Classic/Original" mode option where the battle system is like-for-like of the original and there would obviously be an option to switch between Classic and Modern when selecting a new game or changing between the two in-game. Faithful and modernised at the same time, suiting everyone's taste.
I also thought of how some of the mechanics of battles system could work.
The battle mechanics in terms of characters intelligence. With a foe that is susceptible to more physical damage from being attacked from behind, the higher INT an AI controlled character has, the more likely they are to jockey into a position to try and exploit such a weakness. You'd obviously tie it to the foe's INT, to be more aware of its weakness and position themselves where the weakness can't be exploited. The same could apply to a players accuracy, from outright missing the foe, to causing critical hit. Again tied into the foe's agility, the foe could could just dodge the attack like a boss.
I think this would give battles a very natural flow and create a realistic visual representation of the party's stats and a clear visual growth of the characters through out the game, getting, stronger, faster, more intelligent etc. Just like you might see of a player in a sports game.
I've put too much thought into this, as you can tell.
-
lol, yes, case in point. Publishing =/= developing. When I say "from" I mean it as "developed by".
Sorry, I am not a mind-reader - and seeing as SE has been primarily a publishing company for quite some time now, I took "from" to mean "from SE" not "developed in-house in SE" - and seeing as how there is no real distinction a lot of the time, since many teams are made up of contractors to begin with, it doesn't really make sense to draw a line in the sand like that.
There are already rumors going on that this game is primarily being developed by third-party contractors (which would make sense when SE already has so many titles on its plate).
It doesn't seem like we would use terms such as "spirit" or "true to the original" with the same ideas in mind. IMO, AC isn't "true to the original" because of its plot and character development, not because of its art style.
I do believe it's true to the original, personally. I don't think that Midgar is so "filled with neons and vibrant colors". Some elements are (Honey Bee Inn, Don Corneo's mansion), but many scenes are made with piles of rusted beams and worn corrugated sheets (I've been examining the Sector 5 scenes for a while).
Then re-examine them. Even the reactors you visit clearly use color palettes with deep blues and purples, yellows and greens etc.
Even the metal and rust in FF7 has stronger base-colors than pretty much the deepest color in the remake trailer.
The church, and Aerith's house, the glows that emit from the windows and doors of the houses, the market, the neon-signs, electric currents, and all filled with strong, colorful NPCs.
Compare that to the trailer with its subdued grays, and steel, glass and plastic look I can't even begin to fathom how you could compare the two.
I do believe that the original art style for the fields was aiming at a "realistic" rendition of the environments, with the technological limitations of the times (lighting techniques, shading techniques, limited color palette, etc.).
Are you for real? Are we splitting hairs here? Would you prefer it if we used the term "semi-realism"?
It's quite obvious that I was talking about by what degree the game was going for photo-realism - and it quite clearly isn't -
FF7 clearly aimed for style, which should be apparent just by looking at the choice of the character designs, and sketches for the environments.
Calm, Cosmo Canyon, the Church, For Condor - I can keep on going - there is absolutely nothing realistic about the color palettes, the architecture, or the scales used for these environments, and non of that has to do with technical limitations, since there is nothing about the times that would have stopped the creators from choosing more subdued colors, more realistic architecture and scales that actually make sense.
(consider that games like Resident Evil 1 predate FF7 and clearly pulled off realistic pre-rendered backgrounds that had non of the artistic liberties of FF7)
In my opinion, the chibis of the original game were jarring, and I always thought it needed to be addressed.
Thank god opinions are just that - opinions. Have you seen what happens when you put the battle models into the games using the mods on this site? Now that is jarring as hell. The environments were clearly not designed for that at all.
With that in mind, I don't think that a "realistic" art direction is detrimental, or vastly deviating from the spirit of the original.
With what in mind? You have yet to make a coherent point about what the spirit of FF7 is supposed to be, so how do you qualify that opinion?
The original, as I've already said and which you've completely ignored, is game sporting a 90's anime style - all the way from the art-direction to the actual plot and characterizations throughout.
There is a reason people are expressing doubts about how the remake will handle the cross-dressing scene, or the Honey Bee Inn, or Nanaki in a sailor costume, or Gold Saucer, or the Snowboard scene - because by all accounts, these things work well in granted the particular style of the original, and would look weird as hell in the style of AC or the style of the current trailer.
If you start cutting all these things out for the sake of a more sombre game, then again, how much sense does it make to claim that it's true to the spirit of the original?
I'm left to wonder what "being true to the original" even means to a person who'd make that argument.
The Last of Us being emblematic of what people don't like about AAA industry? Sorry, I can't agree with that.
You don't have to. Not taking into account that The Last of Us made it into pretty much every "overrate game" of its year, or of the seventh generation in total - it's literally a boxed collection of every PS3 action game convention ever. Linear design, way too much exposition, bland and repetitive game-play, lots of focus on flash and graphics, and a bunch of token game-play mechanics thrown together despite many of them not really serving much of a purpose except padding out the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCmmYF4rOwo
In that respect, what I'm rather hoping for is that the devs of the remake of FF7 won't be constrained by some kind of "20th anniversary deadline". I believe we would agree that they'd take their time to polish this one (it's not like waiting for 1 or 2 more years will matter, and for the anecdote, it is actually possible to polish a turd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI))..
Optimally, I think they should take their time on it, but I don't think they will. I also think that if Nomura and Co did take their time on it, it might very well end up in development hell like FFVersus13 did.
Otherwise, I believe that the comparison "Greedy publishing companies" vs "Friendly crowd-funding platforms" is a lot less "black & white" world than what you described.
Not really, because I didn't make a black and white statement. I simply said that crowd-funding is preferable to being pushed around by greedy corporations - which it is. Are there issues with crowd-funding platforms? Sure. That wasn't my point though, nor something I feel I had to qualify granted the fact that I qualified exactly what kind of thing I was comparing it too - which was a very specific problem inherent to most larger publishing companies.
Did you do anything to address that point? Nope.
Well, the FF7 community of "real fans" is so broad that it exhibits the signs of the unpleasable fanbase (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase). If you prefer to be negative so that you won't get disappointed, I can appreciate that. But if people decide to dislike it, or be dissatisfied by a product "for the masses" in order to assert some kind of intellectual superiority, I don't find it very constructive.
Well, I am not, so there's that. I am simply voicing my opinion, which is a reflection of how I honestly feel about these products.
If you thought that, then maybe you should examine why you thought so?
Criticizing a art or media for its mass appeal is not a criticism of the people who enjoy it, unless you assume that the only reason they enjoy it is for its mass appeal - however, I am not making that argument.
I've enjoyed many things that have mass-appeal - I am simply saying that when a thing is made with mass-appeal as a starting point, then the thing is going to be bland - and while that might work for a person who's new to that kind of product, it's not going to work for someone who's been jaded by diminishing returns after having experienced multiple similar products.
If FF7R ends up being just another FF15, or the next The Last of Us in RPG form, to me, that's an issue - because I've already played way too many games like that, and they're not that much fun to play anymore.
-
Haha, sorry but had to share this :P
http://i.imgur.com/9Mmy2Us.jpg
-
[...]
I disagree with a number of points that you made (in particular, the degree of realism the game was originally aiming at, and how technical limitations constrained how the environments would be rendered). It also looks like neither of us is going to convince the other of the superiority of his viewpoint. I guess it goes to show that, no matter which direction FF7 takes, it's going to leave many people dissatisfied.
-
This isn't a difficult concept really... the majority of FF7 fans fell in love with FF7 because of its story, battle system, design and everything else that was there originally. And if they change one or all of these, it will not be received well with fans. But they don't care about that since the "fans" are not large enough anymore to bow down to. They'll change it to have mass market appeal, so that means saying bye bye to ATB, sane cutscenes, the original design, dozens of scenes and options, and they'll also "update" the music without giving us an option of having the original. I hated the FFX "remaster" music they did but originally they gave no option to allow the original. I am guessing FF7 will be the same.
In short, they are going to update the game to a new generation. A generation that sucks monkey balls and wouldn't know good game design if Sephiroth smacked them in the chest. I have to admit that I have been DREADING a remake of this game for the last 5 years. Most have done nothing but look forward to it, but I don't look forward to it when it is being handled by those loons. I know that we always have the original game, but that;s about the only good thing I can think of. I suppose when someone craps all over something I feel passionately about (even if they are the original writers), it annoys me. Especially when they are crapping over it purely for financial gain.
If they had announced that the remake of FF7 was going to be pre-rendered scenes and in the spirit of FF7 original, I'd now be really looking forward to it. But even that one small cut-scene makes me want to smash them in the face. If they had used the prerendered setup (in 720p), they'd save a ton of time and the rest of the game would benefit from the extra time available and the fact the style would be maintained. It's already apparent where most of the time and effort is going to be spent - it isn't going to be on good game mechanics or level-headed storytelling. Can't wait to see Zax winking away as he slaughters 100 soldiers again.
-
Not sure if you guys saw this... it's not confirmed true but apparently comes from a reliable source.
http://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasy/comments/3al0kv/leaked_informationinsight_into_the_development_of/
-
Not sure if you guys saw this... it's not confirmed true but apparently comes from a reliable source.
http://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasy/comments/3al0kv/leaked_informationinsight_into_the_development_of/
All that confirms is there will be a KH3 eventually, FFXV is taking too long, and they're trying very hard to make sure all the changes to FFVII doesn't make the game suck. Not winning lots of cred.
-
I want to point out this NeoGAF post (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101145962) from the same guy who leaked that the remake would be announced at this E3. He's got a pretty solid track record for leaks (almost certainly works for Sony), and he confirmed the remake back in February 2014. The game's been in development for a good long while, then, even before Nomura had to leave FFXV.
-
This was posted on TLS. It's something he posted on NeoGAF. I'll try and post them as they come.
So when planning began a long time ago, there were several issues. It's a big game, it's very important to Kitase, and obviously Nomura, and fans. There were other issues here, but we'll just skip to the game. You're going to remake this game. Now, people will say that since there's already a story, music, script, that a lot of the work is done. This is wrong. You have a starting point, but this is very much like building a new game. That takes a very long time.
Since there's a huge difference in technology, and this is the remake of a game that exists, you have to go through, and address everything. You have to get the scenes, and then decide what you're going to do with them. Some stuff is pretty clear, and it's mostly about presentation. For example, nothing major storywise is being changed. No one has to worry about that. Cloud is still a nutcase, Aeris is still going to die, Weapons are going to run rampant, the Lifestream, and pretty much every important story moment is going to be present. That's FF7. You can't change that. But because this is a new generation of technology, and it's a proper game, that alone brings changes from a design point of view.
Now you have a balancing act of lots of small things, and lots of major things. Kitase, I can assure you, is someone who is quite involved in making sure they try to stay as faithful as possible. He's someone who worried the most originally about this project, and he's also someone who's heavily involved right now. And the original writer is back with Nomura too, so it's a big thing.
Let's use examples:
They want to integrate Zack more, so how do you do it? In the original, it's very much an optional thing, but that's not as realistic now. You can flesh it out too, but in order to integrate it, it needs to be placed somewhere. This is a technically a script change, but it's not a bad thing. It also takes work.
Characters like Yuffie and Vincent which are optional need to be integrated.
How do you tackle the implied sex scene in this game? This is going to be in the game, but it's another presentation issue. How do you do it this time, over two decades later?
How do you tackle Cloud beating the hell out of Aeris? It was fine then, but this needs to be thought about. It's kind of an important story beat for his character because of what happens next, so do you want to change it? But at the same time, is it something you're comfortable leaving in, or should it be altered a little?
A lot of the side story stuff, can it be integrated better, or will some of it have to be cut?
They need to change up the Junon infiltration a little. Red XIII being in a suit isn't that big of a deal, but the ship aspect needs to be worked on now because you have a parade, which then leads to boarding the ship, and the big boss battle. This area and sequence has to be overhauled. It's a good amount of work.
Everything related to the story needs to be addressed within the confines of the new game, and the presentation of that new game on current technology. This means going through all of that, and seeing how to fit in the important things, what to flesh out, and what to alter. Basically, you're designing everything again. There's something to work with, but it's much like creating something new due to the work it actually involves.
Separate to that, there are a lot of other things. There are a lot of mini-games in FF7, notably the snowboarding game, and also the Chocobo breeding. With the former, it doesn't make as much sense to have it happen like that, so you need to integrate it all again, but at the same time, you can still leave something as a nod for fans. How do you do this? Is it possible to do that? Then there is also the case of some stuff being replaced, and maybe Nomura wanting to add other mini-games.
Basically, it's a lot of work. They have to prioritise major things with minor things, and as time goes on, they'll probably have to do it again depending on the development progress. This doesn't mean they can't show you anything this winter. Far from it. They're at a place right now, where they have a little to show, but it's a big game, and it's still in its infancy. It's not as simple as if they have something to show, then they're really ahead of the game. They're not rushing this.
It's important to all of them to remain as faithful as possible, but at the same time, create a new FF7 for a new generation of fans as well as old, and something which takes advantage of what is available today. This means design changes, execution changes, alterations etc. And because you're not just creating something new, and have to keep in mind a beloved game, the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful. As time goes on, and more work is done, there'll probably be other changes too. It's also important that the creators create something that they're pleased with because this is a project that's going to take a lot of their investment, time, and effort. It's unfair to not give them a chance to show you their new vivion at least.
This game being announced right now isn't ideal. That wasn't the plan. This time last year, no one was thinking, "Hell yeah, let's announce FF7, and have fans wait a few years again! That's going to be great!"
But the problem is, PS4 isn't doing great in Japan. There are a bunch of issues, FFXV has taken longer than expected, and it's basically a crap situation to be in if I'm frank. So this announcement is there to build some faith, and also try to make people believe that there are a lot of big plans for the PS4. And there is a lot to come, but because of so many issues, it's taken time. Thankfully, since FFXV is around the corner, and KH3 is also progressing well, it's not that bad of a time really. Those games are coming soon, and this announcement happening now, as well as those games releasing should help fans believe more in companies trying their best to get content out there.
It also didn't help that FFXV had a bit of a negative shadow over it with people complaining last year when it was revealed Nomura has been removed, and then again recently when Tabata mentioned the changes. Now people know what Nomura is doing. There doesn't need to be doom and gloom over him leaving. He's busy, he's working on something. Leave him to it.
FFXV, also, can now be focused on as its own entity, and hopefully have people look at it as what it is rather than what they felt it could have been. And this game is actually coming soon, so there's something to be actually be excited for.
-
There wasn't an insinuation of sex in the original (you'd have to scrape the barrel to find it) - that only came about because of a poor localization into English (and people's bad imagination). They were going to have a scene where Cloud and Tifa came out of the chocobo stables, but that never got anywhere other than being a joke.
It's important to all of them to remain as faithful as possible, but at the same time, create a new FF7 for a new generation of fans as well as old, and something which takes advantage of what is available today. This means design changes, execution changes, alterations etc. And because you're not just creating something new, and have to keep in mind a beloved game, the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful. As time goes on, and more work is done, there'll probably be other changes too.
That's simply what I (and others here) am saying but in a more diplomatic and spin-doctor way. That entire paragraph is fighting with itself, too. "Faithful as possible" isn't good enough when they're deciding what "as possible" is.
the cuts you decide to make, or the changes you decide to do, have to be careful.
How about not making any cuts and change only what needed changing in the first place? Oh, of course not. How silly of me :P
Well, I'm just gonna have to hope I am completely wrong on this, but I don't think so. I'll revisit this thread again when it's been out a while. :-D
-
How about not making any cuts and change only what needed changing in the first place? Oh, of course not. How silly of me :P
Yeah exactly.
"But because this is a new generation of technology (...) that alone brings changes from a design point of view."
So he's basically saying that modern technology implies per se realism and modern gameplay ? Like, that is the technology being more advanced now that forces you to make the game like that ?
If they put away the original style, I fear for the spirit of the game.
-
I found some solace in that post, I remain excited.
Also this isn't a debate forum last time I checked, we are all entitled to our own opinions. For example, I did interpret a sex scene between Cloud and Tifa.
What I'm trying to say is that the walls of text attacking each others opinions and ideas are boring and in some cases slightly insulting. Doesn't make for a place where discussion can be cultured.
-
As I said, you very likely only interpreted that because the faulty localization ended up implying it. The original text and the actual scenes simply don't bear it out. You can imagine it happened (that's your prerogative), but the scenes and original text don't support it. Imho that's a good thing, the last thing FF7 needed was teeny sex romp in what is meant to be a heartfelt scene.
-
Yes, but my point was that it doesn't matter. When I played FF7 the first time round I didn't know about language barriers and translations. I enjoyed the game for a) what it was and b) how I interpreted it.
Mainly because the style left a lot to interpretation, as far as I am concerned.
My really big point is that I now feel like I am defending my opinion or my interpretation, surely you can see a problem with that.
-
this is my thoughts about ff7 remake. keep in mind the video was recorded before before E3 i still stand by this while the remake is happening https://youtu.be/md-4ykbDkzQ?t=17m32s
-
"But because this is a new generation of technology (...) that alone brings changes from a design point of view."
So he's basically saying that modern technology implies per se realism and modern gameplay ? Like, that is the technology being more advanced now that forces you to make the game like that ?
If they put away the original style, I fear for the spirit of the game.
Don't be silly. That only means you don't display a scene in 3D the same way you display it in 2D.
ultima espio's quote seems perfectly reasonable to me. It all goes back to the fact that you just don't trust SE anymore. I'm not saying you're right or wrong but that's definitely a wrong thing to fear every one of SE's communiqués and read them with a negative bias.
Just wait the damn game. We don't have enough informations on this remake to have a proper opinion about what it'll look like.
-
My really big point is that I now feel like I am defending my opinion or my interpretation, surely you can see a problem with that.
No more than I am defending the portrayal of the scene, the original text, and MY opinion. If two people differ, then they both have to be defending their position. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.
Just wait the damn game. We don't have enough informations on this remake to have a proper opinion about what it'll look like.
Actually, we do. We have the trailer, interviews, past experience, knowledge of how games get remade, and the current trend of Square Enix and their prequel / sequel cash ins (and the style they took). So far, things don't look so good. This thread is here to debate, good or bad. Why is it that negative opinions on something are always something to be stamped out, but positive opinions are to be embraced, despite any current or prior evidence against such opinions? What makes one more worthy than the other?
-
Don't be silly. That only means you don't display a scene in 3D the same way you display it in 2D.
Well okay, didn't understand it that way, but okay.
It all goes back to the fact that you just don't trust SE anymore.
In my case, that's not a question of trust or not. SE's way of remaking the game may end up going against what I think is the spirit of FF VII, but then I won't be saying that SE is not trustworthy of my personal feel of what makes the spirit of FF VII.
that's definitely a wrong thing to fear every one of SE's communiqués and read them with a negative bias.
FF VII exists and we love it, each one of us for his own reasons, so it is impossible to have no bias in the matter. But as I said in my first post in this thread, I have no expectations, and that is not negativity or lack of trust, it's just that I think that FF VII cannot be remade without becoming something else than FF VII, so I'm not going to compare it to 98/97 FF VII. It'll just be another kind of FF VII, and of course I'll prefer 98/97 FF VII, but the remake may end up being a good game in its own kind.
But I think that having expectations inspired by the original game and comparing it to the remake would only lead to depreciating the remake once it is played, even if it turns out to be a decent game, and that would be a pitty.
-
I'm still not getting the hate.
No game will ever be the original FF7. Because it is literally impossible for any other game to have the exact same dialogue, characters, and art style without it being the original. What SE is doing is remaking (see re-imagining) the original. For everyone already complaining about it before we know anything, you're not going to like it. Not because it won't be a good game, but because it won't be frame for frame and line for line the same as the 1997 one. There is literally nothing they can put out that will make you happy.
It's basically the same reason DLPB's Beacause retranslation gets hate. It's not EXACTLY what we played a decade ago so it's terrible and blasphemous. Thing is, REimaginings and REtranslations aren't horrible if you approach them with an open mind and see them as a chance to revisit old friends. Will it be exactly like what you played a decade ago? Nope. What would the point of that be if not a lazy cash grab. But that also doesn't mean it can't be good in its own right. Sort of like the whole compilation. By no means am I praising it, because at least one of the games seems to me to be a ridiculous cash grab, but by not expecting the same old FF7 with a new bow on it allows them to be enjoyable..... Like i said about catching up with friends you haven't seen in years, you can't expect the relationship to not have changed. It's been over 15 years. You've changed. They've changed. The dynamic is going to be different, but that doesn't mean you have to hate them or be upset that they aren't the same person they were a decade ago. They're going to be a little different, and that's ok.
If you could only buy and play one: A remake with only updated backgrounds and models OR whatever the current remake becomes, I think you'd be a fool to choose the former. We've already played it. Some of us dozens of times. Why on earth would you pay for the same game you already own?
-
I'm still not getting the hate.
No game will ever be the original FF7. Because it is literally impossible for any other game to have the exact same dialogue, characters, and art style without it being the original. What SE is doing is remaking (see re-imagining) the original. For everyone already complaining about it before we know anything, you're not going to like it. Not because it won't be a good game, but because it won't be frame for frame and line for line the same as the 1997 one. There is literally nothing they can put out that will make you happy.
It's basically the same reason DLPB's Beacause retranslation gets hate. It's not EXACTLY what we played a decade ago so it's terrible and blasphemous. Thing is, REimaginings and REtranslations aren't horrible if you approach them with an open mind and see them as a chance to revisit old friends. Will it be exactly like what you played a decade ago? Nope. What would the point of that be if not a lazy cash grab. But that also doesn't mean it can't be good in its own right. Sort of like the whole compilation. By no means am I praising it, because at least one of the games seems to me to be a ridiculous cash grab, but by not expecting the same old FF7 with a new bow on it allows them to be enjoyable..... Like i said about catching up with friends you haven't seen in years, you can't expect the relationship to not have changed. It's been over 15 years. You've changed. They've changed. The dynamic is going to be different, but that doesn't mean you have to hate them or be upset that they aren't the same person they were a decade ago. They're going to be a little different, and that's ok.
If you could only buy and play one: A remake with only updated backgrounds and models OR whatever the current remake becomes, I think you'd be a fool to choose the former. We've already played it. Some of us dozens of times. Why on earth would you pay for the same game you already own?
I feel very much the same way. I remain very curious about how they're going to handle all the various aspects of the remake. There's also much which can be expanded on.
Think of the possibilities!!!
-
I'm pessimistic about the remake because the Nomura - Kitase - Nojima triumvirate has been pushing out what for me is edgy teen pop trash for the last 10 - 15 years. I'd be more than happy to play a complete re-imagining of FF7, but from what I've seen from these people over the last decade I doubt I'll be able to overcome my visceral hatred for the airbrushed Maybelline bullet time brigade.
-
Sorry, I am not a mind-reader - and seeing as SE has been primarily a publishing company for quite some time now, I took "from" to mean "from SE" not "developed in-house in SE" - and seeing as how there is no real distinction a lot of the time, since many teams are made up of contractors to begin with, it doesn't really make sense to draw a line in the sand like that.
There are already rumors going on that this game is primarily being developed by third-party contractors (which would make sense when SE already has so many titles on its plate).
I didn't expect you to read my mind sir (but the post I made about AAA companies may been a bit vague and open for interpretation). We may simply have a different natural reaction on the word "from" in the given context... Or maybe I'm too lazy in my wording. :P In my defence though -and as a correction- I did use the word "create" which imo relates better to the creative process (development) than publishing rights, or whatever you imagine when you conjecture the word "from". I was not trying to make fun of you or anything by the "lol" and whatnot in the latter post, sorry about that.
And, yes, any big company will always have contractors/third party and/or new blood on any project (most projects at least). I used to work for Cisco as a contractor; I know a bit about this. Even though there always were some contractors on every project, the end products -at the time- were always considered in-house developed Cisco products. Do you mean "in-house development" and "third party developed" are such blurred terms that it is debatable whether they should even be distinguished? Just curious, not trying to put you on the spot or anything. The way I see it is that there usually is a clear distinction on who have the creative input vs publishing rights, even if the parties are mixed. With exceptions of course. There probably have been "internal" disputes on who the publishers are and who the developers are.</offtopicish>
I'm still not getting the hate...
I don't if you refer to people like me... :O Pretty much everything said in ultima espio's quote presupposes a mass-appeal minded, realism themed, matrix-esqued FF7R. Which fits the evidence so far. If that also turnes out to be true, then I, most likely, will not like it. Which is based on the recent stuff SE has made, the direction/trend they seem to follow and the evidence of the remake we currently have. I try to strip my expectations (to anything fictional), but in the case of FFs and SE it's kinda hard to do that without giving them the benefit of the doubt. Everything of the above may still be true at release, and I may still like it. I have not decided that I will not like it even though to some I seem to be on the hate-train with no going off. What I'm guessing as of now however, is that I will not like it. Based on the evidence. The reason I voice it is not to spread hate but in an poor attempt to make similar minded people to not automatically buy into this. Hate =/= not liking in my book. What I find a bit troubling however, is this presupposition I mentioned above that have snuck in, seemingly unintentionally everywhere.
Now, as I said before, I understand why SE would do a remake in this manner. As a company they have to survey the marked to conclude what kind of product would be most profitable for them. It's a company mentality not a personal mentality. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are plenty of people in SE who loves what they do, and work with passion.
If FF7 was ever to be remade, and still get a huge coin from the original fans, they are running out of time. In that regard making it now makes sense.
On the topic of "staying true to the FF7 spirit" vs "FF7 rebooted", I would actually love to see a more R-rated-ish rebooted FF7 (no, I don't mean porn). With mature themes, hard decisions and whatnot. Hell, GoT is wildly profitable right now, can't SE get inspired by that? I would love SE to at least make a FF spin off title aimed for us that are tired of PG 13 FFs.
-
This comic is on point (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/14199-It-s-the-shitty-bits-that-count).
-
Pretty much everything said in ultima espio's quote presupposes a mass-appeal minded, realism themed, matrix-esqued FF7R. Which fits the evidence so far. If that also turns out to be true, then I, most likely, will not like it.
That's precisely it. I would prefer no remake to one that just rides roughshod over the original because, to me, that's a real waste of potential. It will also be the game that a new generation identify with as FF7, which is even more sad. I think it's clear that most people against this remake DO want an updated translation and updated graphics - but they also want something that's as intelligent as the original and respects the fanbase. So far, all signs point to this not being so. I don't think people like myself and gj can be considered "haters" or bigots, given we have both finished projects that address some big faults with the original game (translation , difficulty) but... that's just the point isn't it?
Those things needed fixing. They needed updating.
FF7 does not need matrix effects, endless cutscenes, graphic fests, dumbed down battle system, teeny angst, or anything else Square is delivering these days.
In other words, what the pessimists like myself want is a game that ADDS to what was already there, not deducts or completely changes the original. And they're already saying that's exactly what they're going to do. What's to feel happy about? Why bother remaking a game if it is going to have less quality and variety, and more bloat? Does anyone here believe this is being driven by anything other than money? I know all game companies are big business, but the modern Square is the type we don't need and don't like and don't want - FAT CAT BUSINESS. Imho they simply aren't capable of remaking FF7 to any decent standard anymore, and there will be no soul because they lost theirs a long time ago.
Anyway, I think I'm going round in circles now, so I'll bookmark this and pop back when the disaster is on our shelves. :)
-
I'm a bit worried myself, but mostly excited. Final Fantasy has been touch and go for awhile, but Square does do awesome work (been playing Sleeping Dogs Definitive edition). I think it'll be a bit different, but possibly more exciting (fmv's are certainly more entertaining than comic book bubble dialogue). In the end I think it'll be a satisfying game. It's their best game and series, and ultimately their legacy. I'm sure they'll find a good balance between the original game and FFXV/KH game mechanics. Otherwise the game will sell well....like retire and buy a whole country well, but no one will likely ever buy another Square game again. There's a lot riding on this for them.
-
It almost feels like the best PR move Square could possibly pull off would be to "hire" Sakagushi so that his name would be on the directors list (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/AndTheFandomRejoiced?from=Main.AndTheFandomRejoiced). I'm not sure there's so much "bad blood" between him and Square (after all, he still seems to be talking to Kitase regularly), but would he be interested in getting involved in this?
-
Those things needed fixing. They needed updating.
But who gets to decide what needs fixing? Maybe part of the appeal is that it's easy to run through and you don't have to grind and grind to progress with the story. Maybe the story with all of it's quirks and ill-translated names gives it a certain charm and allows the player to better enjoy it than if it had been perfectly translated.
I personally feel that the turn based battles in FF7 are way outdated. I've seen newer games tackle battles with an updated turn based mentality that works well, but is that something that NEEDS to be updated?
"Expect the worst, hope for the best" was my motto for many years. It helps avoid disappointment when things don't go your way. I think it's perfect for all those people already worried the remake will step all over the original. If you're expecting it to be terrible, try instead to be apathetic about it. It doesn't affect you and there's literally nothing you can do to change how SE makes the game. But you shouldn't be upset by it or dreading the release date.
That last paragraph is kind of ass, but basically, who cares if it ends up being terrible? Just don't buy it. Like countless people here I have spent an exorbitantly large amount of time playing and modding the game, it's basically been a part of my life since I was 15. If I hate the remake, oh well, it will be forgotten and I'll promptly move on with my life. But if it's good, well then hell that will be awesome.
-
The person who decides is ultimately the director - and he should know the basics of game design. Everything I get from the current crop at Square is that they don't, but they aren't held to account because of the brand. It's not too hard to see what was wrong with the original:
1. Models are lego, graphics are pixellated because of low resolution. The pre-rendered setup is fine.
2. FMV have same problem
3. Difficulty is far too easy (probably needs a choice between hard / easy at game start)
4. Ties in with 3. The implementation of the materia system and battle system is poor. The design is fine.
5. Localization into English is poor
6. Cait Sith (well, he's here to stay, sadly haha)
7. Some minigames (like Submarine) are unfinished
8. Game could have had more minigames at Gold Saucer
If those things were fixed and updated, the game would still retain everything that made it great and, at the same time, ADD to what was there originally. But such a task would take a competent director and writing staff, a company that cared, and much more time and money than they are willing to spend. Nearly all the budget will go into bloated CGI, high resolution 3D environments, and voice acting. None of which made the original what it was. If FF7 had SNES graphics with everything else intact, it would still be hailed a masterpiece.
In other words, I never wanted a remake to address the graphics in this way. That misses the point entirely about where most effort was needed. All the graphics needed was an update based on the original feel. The interviews so far (and sadly the prevailing mindset elsewhere) is that a remake was only necessary to shove the power of the next gen graphics in our face. That entire train of thought is the worst way to start a remake project. That mindset misses the point entirely. But perhaps not from a money-making side of things. I can already see the 40/40 and 10/10 reviews by big gaming magazines simply because the remake has 1080p CGI environments. Who gives a crap about anything else?
-
The person who decides is ultimately the director - and he should know the basics of game design. Everything I get from the current crop at Square is that they don't, but they aren't held to account because of the brand. It's not too hard to see what was wrong with the original:
1. Models are lego, graphics are pixellated because of low resolution. The pre-rendered setup is fine.
2. FMV have same problem
3. Difficulty is far too easy (probably needs a choice between hard / easy at game start)
4. Ties in with 3. The implementation of the materia system and battle system is poor. The design is fine.
5. Localization into English is poor
6. Cait Sith (well, he's here to stay, sadly haha)
7. Some minigames (like Submarine) are unfinished
8. Game could have had more minigames at Gold Saucer
If those things were fixed and updated, the game would still retain everything that made it great and, at the same time, ADD to what was there originally. But such a task would take a competent director and writing staff, a company that cared, and much more time and money than they are willing to spend.
If fixing these points were the way to your ideal vision of a remake, then things can't be looking too bad because the contributions of the modding community (including your own) are precisely doing that job! Item #1 would be fixed using Kaldarasha's models and yarLson's fields, Item #2 may need more video-editing work (if you go with an approach with upscaling and filtering each frame, it'd be tedious but still manageable), Item #3 and #4: there are difficulty patches (not to mention that if you push the config sliders to the maximum battle speed in "Active" mode, it'd make the game a little harder) which you must know better than I, Item#5 is actually your very own project, Item #6 is a long-term project you intended to carry out, only Item #7 and Item #8 would be a little more difficult to implement (not sure if anybody has been working much on the submarine game). So in the end we'll have Square's remake on the one hand, however it turns out, with certainly a different direction than what you propose, and on the other end we could also choose to play the original with the appropriate collection of mods which will make it faithful to your ideal vision. Is there a harm that they'll be different? If people recognize that your vision is superior (and that graphics do not matter that much), then they too will play the modded version of the original and be content with it, and they will leave Square's remake aside. I'm actually not sure there would be a point for Square to simply make the same modifications to the game as the modding community would (and certainly it wouldn't cost them that much money, if you cut down the budget for the graphic update).
-
You're right that some of those are being addressed and fixed, but a full remake of the engine is unlikely to happen, along with 720p graphic updates to all pre-rendered fields (that will never happen). In short, our changes can only go so far - we do not have at our disposal near unlimited funds and talent. A full remake could do what we have done and much more with the right people in charge. So I'm afraid we just have to go back to my list and my previous posts.
Ultimately any changes we do make will only be seen by a fraction of people and will never be official. If the majority of gamers knew of us and saw our version, I am confident it would hold up well. But you cannot compete with a console and an entire company.
-
A full remake could do what we have done and much more with the right people in charge.
For curiosity's sake, who in your opinion would have been the right people for taking the lead of this project? Sakagushi?
-
For curiosity's sake, who in your opinion would have been the right people for taking the lead of this project? Sakagushi?
I have absolutely no idea. Sakaguchi isn't without faults, but I'd feel much happier if he were at the helm. I don't know enough about the FF team as individuals to say who is the best suited to doing the job right. People who know them better, like Luksy, may be able to give you a better answer.
I wish I was the director. :-D
-
It almost feels like the best PR move Square could possibly pull off would be to "hire" Sakagushi so that his name would be on the directors list (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/AndTheFandomRejoiced?from=Main.AndTheFandomRejoiced). I'm not sure there's so much "bad blood" between him and Square (after all, he still seems to be talking to Kitase regularly), but would he be interested in getting involved in this?
It wouldn't hurt at least...
When it comes to Sakaguchi, imo, he haven't done anything truly great since FF9. Lost Odyssey (best things about LO are the short stories and the music) and Last Story have their charm, but lacks the little extra that made his previous works with the FFs truly great. imo.
Even when it comes to the FF series -amazing as the man is- he tends to be over credited by fanboys. FF1 is kinda his child. 2 - 5 he had a lot of creative influence over. On 6 and 7 he was "only" a producer (if I'm not mistaken), which is very important to the final product, but not as much as being both director and writer. On 8, 10 and 11 he was "merely" an executive producer, whatever that means. In any case he wasn't very involved with those games. On 9 he is credited as producer and scenario. Basically 1 - 7 and 9 are the games he had influence over directly.
In regards to the fan remake vs SE remake: It a good thing SE makes a new FF7. It won't interrupt the potential fan "remakes" of the original. A "true fan remake", in other words, will never be in vain.
-
For curiosity's sake, who in your opinion would have been the right people for taking the lead of this project? Sakagushi?
I have given your question some more thought. I think the answer is - NONE of the staff are the right person for the job in terms of story. In order for a game like FF7 to have optimal game play and story it needs both game designers AND a professional writer. Someone who understands storytelling far better than your average game designer does. It stands to reason. I'd be happy with someone who even knew the basics, but Advent Children / Dirge / Crisis Core / Before Crisis prove the current crop are NOT it. I am not lying when I say I could do a better job with the story than they did with those and that's unacceptable.
-
I think the answer is - NONE of the staff are the right person for the job in terms of story.
Given they're actually the same people as the original writers, I'm left to wonder: would you consider the writing and narration of the original game to have been the result of a very fortunate accident?
-
.
-
It looks like it already has gone back down (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/9684:JP), it seems hard to judge on a day to day basis. I know extremely little about finances, but I find it interesting that their shares has considerably increased during the past year, and quite progressively at that. It rather looks like it would correlate information/media release for FF XV.
-
Given they're actually the same people as the original writers, I'm left to wonder: would you consider the writing and narration of the original game to have been the result of a very fortunate accident?
I think that it was a combination of them spending a lot more time on it, having more passion for it, and being limited by the system itself. Art from adversity. Perhaps they are good enough but they just don'[t care anymore. But for whatever reason, their endeavours after FFX have been poor to say the least. I guess it couldn't have been a fluke given that I really think FF8-10 had some real effort placed in and were certainly not mediocre (well, FF8's plot went out of the window near the end, and FF9's wasn't really THAT good). But everything after has been.
Perhaps what I have been saying for a long time is true - that the new systems allowing so much data and power have ended up taking away time and effort that used to be channeled into the story and game play.
-
Yeah, with all the different opinions I've read regarding the remake across the internet, I am starting to think that the smart thing for Squarenix to do sould be to come out with "Final Fantasy VII Remake Maker". So you can get it just right for what you want out of it! :P
-
Given they're actually the same people as the original writers, I'm left to wonder: would you consider the writing and narration of the original game to have been the result of a very fortunate accident?
In the case of FF it's hardly the 1st time a creative "band" have lost their creative flair. Think of a The Sixth Sense remake. Or a Master of Puppets Remake. Or a Star Wars remake. By the same people respectively. Would I trust that they would pull it off? Not impossible, but given their latest work, being sceptical is not irrational here. It may very well be the most rational position to have in all these cases.
@Gatchaman
Notepad?
-
is happening... reaction video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ubxpEMr3o
-
In the case of FF it's hardly the 1st time a creative "band" have lost their creative flair. Think of a The Sixth Sense remake. Or a Master of Puppets Remake. Or a Star Wars remake. By the same people respectively. Would I trust that they would pull it off? Not impossible, but given their latest work, being sceptical is not irrational here. It may very well be the most rational position to have in all these cases.
You've made a very good point. I guess we would agree that George Lucas' stuff in particular symbolizes that (and I'd understand very well the skepticism in the other two cases). Still, stuff can turn out being different and good (the re-arrangements with the orchestra in S&M were pretty damn good IMO). And for good or ill, nobody is more legitimate than the original authors for remaking it.
-
I guess we would agree that George Lucas' stuff in particular symbolizes that
Y'know, I actually wouldn't agree with this. The first film in the original trilogy was a fill-in-the-blanks of Joseph Campbell's monomyth, and the other two were mostly not Lucas' work. He had a whole bunch of people serving to keep him in check, whereas on the prequel trilogy he had a whole bunch of yes-men who wouldn't dare disagree with the Great George Lucas, praise be unto him.
It's not so much that Lucas has lost his creative flair, it's that he never had it, but the more power he has the more obvious it becomes. That said, I wonder if this might be at least in part the case with FF7 compilation. The original game was directed by Yoshinori Kitase, while everything else in the compilation has been directed by Tetsuya Nomura, relegating Kitase to far more hands-off producer roles. This, among all else, I would say is the chief cause for the drastic shift in tone between FF7 and Advent Children, a shift that ended up sticking to the rest of the compilation.
-
Y'know, I actually wouldn't agree with this. The first film in the original trilogy was a fill-in-the-blanks of Joseph Campbell's monomyth, and the other two were mostly not Lucas' work. He had a whole bunch of people serving to keep him in check, whereas on the prequel trilogy he had a whole bunch of yes-men who wouldn't dare disagree with the Great George Lucas, praise be unto him.
It's not so much that Lucas has lost his creative flair, it's that he never had it, but the more power he has the more obvious it becomes.
Honestly, I wouldn't know. I would still tend to believe he had a major role in the successes of the earlier movies. The Indiana Jones franchise followed the same fate (all of them had the story by Lucas and the direction by Spielberg), I'm not sure he had a smaller part in his successes than he had in his failures.
That said, I wonder if this might be at least in part the case with FF7 compilation. The original game was directed by Yoshinori Kitase, while everything else in the compilation has been directed by Tetsuya Nomura, relegating Kitase to far more hands-off producer roles. This, among all else, I would say is the chief cause for the drastic shift in tone between FF7 and Advent Children, a shift that ended up sticking to the rest of the compilation.
I am not sure that Nomura is that much to be blamed for. Fair enough, he was at the lead of Advent Children, but for the rest of the compilation (BC, CC, DoC) his role was to lay out concepts and design characters. I don't believe he had a significant part in the direction/production. In my opinion, if the story and script are to be considered, then it may rather be Nojima's responsibility.
-
is happening... reaction video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ubxpEMr3o
I'm actually watching this all the way through lol
-
is happening... reaction video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ubxpEMr3o
That is so funny x)
I hadn't even watched the trailer !
-
Modders of the original FF7, does this affect your motivation to continue working on it?
-
Modders of the original FF7, does this affect your motivation to continue working on it?
It reinforces it. Because I already know this remake is going to crap all over the original and that when the nostalgia and hype have died off, the original is going to be replayed an awful lot more.
-
It reinforces it. Because I already know this remake is going to crap all over the original and that when the nostalgia and hype have died off, the original is going to be replayed an awful lot more.
My feelings exactly.
-
Modders of the original FF7, does this affect your motivation to continue working on it?
On my end, I feel there's not much point in continuing (http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=16204.msg229263#msg229263). My time and energy would be better spent elsewhere.
-
I am treating them as separate games from different eras of gaming. I am absolutely in love with the original, so I don't plan to stop being a part of the modding community for it. The only thing that could stop me is if Meteor itself comes crashing down on these forums and we lose everything (aka cease and desist).
-
The only thing that could stop me is if Meteor itself comes crashing down on these forums and we lose everything (aka cease and desist).
That's the matter I was about to post on.
I'm wondering if a remake being out could give Square a reason to summon Meteor.
-
There is one thing I'm really happy about. No more endless remake speculation. No more having to read "when it is happening" or "Rumour confirmed!" "Are they remaking it?" Every single week. After this there will be no more remake talk.
-
Well, when is the FF8 remake coming?
SE is making 7, why not 8, or 9?
FF8 remake would be amazing to see, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.
-
One step at a time :)
We didn't suspect 7 would ever be made, so it's possible with 8 and 9.
-
If they are doing a 20 year remake for each of them, ff8's remake will come in 2019. Plenty of time to discourage them from ruining another good game in the series.
-
There is one thing I'm really happy about. No more endless remake speculation. No more having to read "when it is happening" or "Rumour confirmed!" "Are they remaking it?" Every single week. After this there will be no more remake talk.
Well, when is the FF8 remake coming?
XD
-
Well, when is the FF8 remake coming?
SE is making 7, why not 8, or 9?
FF8 remake would be amazing to see, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.
Sorry to break it to you but not only do you have to wait for 7, 6 is the most likely candidate for a remake. 6 is the third most popular entry in the franchise after 7 and 10, and many consider it to be the best in the series (I don't, but I feel like I should replay it since it has been so long to see if my opinion has changed).
Nomura has recently expressed interest in remaking 5 and 6, since there is a gap between the 4 remake and the 7 remake, making it even more likely that they are up next.
8 and 9 are only really important to those of us who grew up with the 7-9 era, but 8 and 9 have a mixed reception among fans. I know there are fans that love both (I love 9, it's my 3rd favorite FF only slightly behind 7 and 10), but there are those that dislike 8 for its poorly written story and broken gameplay (I'm one of them) and those that dislike 9 for its art style.
Being logical, I'd say 5 gets a remake on a handheld, 6 on a console, and 8 & 9 possibly get remade last sometime way down the line. FF12 remaster is a given IMO. As far as wishful thinking goes, I'd be down for Chrono Trigger remake.
-
As far as wishful thinking goes, I'd be down for Chrono Trigger remake.
I would prefer this over any other FF remake.
Chrono Trigger <3
-
personally i wouldnt mind if they gave the option for a star ocean style battle system.... or a 3d Secret of mana style battle system...
all this whining saying its gonna be horrible because this guy is involved or this guy isn't...ima wait till it is done and see what its like before judgment... cause we all know any real fan is gonna buy it anyway even if it is a steaming pile... just to rip the models for classic.
Really though the people involved are like many of of us and have a deep attachment or so they have said and now boom they are using the job to remake it really how can that be a bad thing
-
I'm a real fan and I can assure you I won't be buying it. I sold my PS3 and I have no plans on buying any modern console. If I was even dreaming of buying this remake, I'd have to see countless videos and reviews beforehand.
The people who are going to buy it are the vast majority of fans who aren't able to see past this money making scheme and are completely incapable of separating nostalgia and reason. I don't think that makes them any more a real fan than I am.
-
I'm a real fan and I can assure you I won't be buying it. I sold my PS3 and I have no plans on buying any modern console. If I was even dreaming of buying this remake, I'd have to see countless videos and reviews beforehand.
The people who are going to buy it are the vast majority of fans who aren't able to see past this money making scheme and are completely incapable of separating nostalgia and reason. I don't think that makes them any more a real fan than I am.
The "no real Scottsman" argument isn't valid in any scenario, so no none of them are more of a "real" fan than you are. On the other hand, labeling the people who buy it as people who aren't capable of seeing a money making scheme or separating nostalgia and reason is also incorrect.
I am a fan who is likely to buy it as long as it checks my own personal set of boxes I'd like to see. For me, as long as they keep the memorable, mature-rated moments (cursing, sephiroth violence, cross dressing, honey-bee inn, etc.), and keep everything reasonable and give it the charm of the original instead of complete fanservice pandering, then I'll be likely to buy it.
Personally, I've said in the past how Kingdom Heart's Sephiroth fight made me dream of an ARPG fight where you could be Cloud instead of Sora, and I've personally always wanted to see it. It is what made me so interested in FFXV, because that combined with the character switching that was showcased when it was still FFVSXIII looked like it could be implemented in FF7 (Prompto's third person shooter section for Barret and Vincent comes to mind). Now that FFXV scrapped the character switching, I wonder if it'll return in the FF7 remake.
I know it's basically heresy to say, but an ARPG with character switching and a deep Materia system is a wet dream to me. With a pause mode similar to what Dragon Age Inquisition was trying to do, but executed in a way that was satisfying, would be basically everything I want in a game. Being able to fight and move freely, but to also pause the action and que up abilities is what I love about the Tales series, but I think that it could be done soooo much better. Basically, I would want a hybrid system that allows careful planning and reaction based combat simultaneously. The reason why that is not going to happen is because that would be almost like making two or three battle systems for the same game, and balancing all of it accordingly. Most hybrid systems are good, but they seem to not be as good at either as games that focus on a single battle system. I can always dream though...
That being said, honestly I'd be down for any combat system as long as the material is implemented in a significant way, and that the battles themselves were interesting to play.
-
The "no real Scottsman" argument isn't valid in any scenario, so no none of them are more of a "real" fan than you are. On the other hand, labeling the people who buy it as people who aren't capable of seeing a money making scheme or separating nostalgia and reason is also incorrect.
Just saying - The No True Scotsman fallacy is an informal fallacy that is easy to get wrong.
To exemplify a general issue with the appeal to the fallacy though -
in the case of Scotsmen, this is determined by legal national status. A person who is not a legal Scottish National is not a Scotsman period. And all who are, are all real Scotsmen period.
The no true Scotsman fallacy only works when the state that is being discussed is ambiguous - and most things are (after all, we could
have a perfectly valid discussion about whether or not legal national status should be the qualifying factors for Scotsmen or not)
It is possible to have discussions about what factors into a state, or what qualifies something as being applicable for certain labels without this being a no true Scotsman fallacy.
In the cases of fans - qualifying your opinion about what you think a true fan is, is not a NTS fallacy.
The NTS fallacy only happens when the opinion of what a true [something] is, is re-asserted as fact as a means of dismissing
objections to the definition you're working with.
As for whether DLPB is incorrect in his labeling of the people who'll end up buying the remake -
You have no way of knowing that unless you read his post in bad faith and assumed he was actually, and literally,
talking about every single person who's going to buy it - which I think is unreasonable. He was clearly generalizing.
And, making a personal appeal is not a rebuttal to his perspective.
I am not going to say that he is correct - but you can't in good conscious pretend to know that he is incorrect either, unless you have access
to some great pool of FF7 fan statistics going into why they plan on buying the game or not.
In either case, you're both making an argument from ignorance.
Personally, I think most of the people who will buy it, won't actually be people who played the original.
Most people will be new to the title and will probably buy it because they think it looks "kewl".
Personally, I might end up buying the game just because I want to know personally, first-hand, how it turned out.
If it's bad though, it'll end up in the "used games" section at the local Tsutaya faster than people can say "You look like a bear trapped in a
marshmallow."
-
whoa gaiz.... clearly i poked a nerve.....seriously peeps not giving things a chance casting judgments before things are even shown,let alone played, thats just silly.(opinion... tiz the interwebz gaiz)
when i said real im going from the ideal point of view as in the peeps that have been praying for something like this for nigh on 18years.... even if it turns out to be a steaming pile one of the industry giants has listened to the masses,remaking a classic...im not saying people are not ff7 fans
anywho sudeki active battle type system would be nice too
-
Just saying - The No True Scotsman fallacy is an informal fallacy that is easy to get wrong.
To exemplify a general issue with the appeal to the fallacy though -
in the case of Scotsmen, this is determined by legal national status. A person who is not a legal Scottish National is not a Scotsman period. And all who are, are all real Scotsmen period.
The no true Scotsman fallacy only works when the state that is being discussed is ambiguous - and most things are (after all, we could
have a perfectly valid discussion about whether or not legal national status should be the qualifying factors for Scotsmen or not)
It is possible to have discussions about what factors into a state, or what qualifies something as being applicable for certain labels without this being a no true Scotsman fallacy.
In the cases of fans - qualifying your opinion about what you think a true fan is, is not a NTS fallacy.
The NTS fallacy only happens when the opinion of what a true [something] is, is re-asserted as fact as a means of dismissing
objections to the definition you're working with.
As for whether DLPB is incorrect in his labeling of the people who'll end up buying the remake -
You have no way of knowing that unless you read his post in bad faith and assumed he was actually, and literally,
talking about every single person who's going to buy it - which I think is unreasonable. He was clearly generalizing.
And, making a personal appeal is not a rebuttal to his perspective.
I am not going to say that he is correct - but you can't in good conscious pretend to know that he is incorrect either, unless you have access
to some great pool of FF7 fan statistics going into why they plan on buying the game or not.
In either case, you're both making an argument from ignorance.
Personally, I think most of the people who will buy it, won't actually be people who played the original.
Most people will be new to the title and will probably buy it because they think it looks "kewl".
Personally, I might end up buying the game just because I want to know personally, first-hand, how it turned out.
If it's bad though, it'll end up in the "used games" section at the local Tsutaya faster than people can say "You look like a bear trapped in a
marshmallow."
Wow, getting super technical on our fallacies are we? Just saying: "it's not really a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, it's actually a (Insert Fallacy)" would have sufficed. It's basically like saying, "you used the wrong word for 'there'", and then continue to breakdown the historical use of every phonetically similar word. You knew what I was meaning to say, the uncalled for lecture seems a little abrasive/defensive, or possibly a little self-congratulatory showboating. I was never asserting any type of superiority in my statement, so I'm not appreciating the condescension here. However, I'm not denying you are correct.
DLPB must have read Izban's post in "bad faith" in order to assume that he was literally talking about every "real fan" was going to buy it then, no? For someone who is keen to "understand" the implications in DLPB's writing, you sure ignored what either Izban or I were "implying" in our posts. Obviously, both DLPB and Izban were making generalizations about a large portion of the actual population they were talking about. But if DLPB was clearly meaning to use a word such as "most", than Izban was as well. If DLPB read Izban's as "all" is it not fair to assume that DLPB's post written in a similar manner was intended to be "all"?
And I'm sorry that my opinions need to say "Personally," before I'm allowed to express them otherwise they are a illogical and ignorant attempts at dismissing DLPB's "facts" because neither of us know everything about everyone. People may not have quantifiable data regarding the opinions they express, but since we are both long time fans (meaning we've talked about the game and discussed with others for years) we both have a pretty good "feeling" (personal estimation) of what that data would turn out to be.
You dismissed everything I had to say, and in a very negative way, based on the technicality of my writing, and not my overall meanings. I was attempting to have a friendly discussion which you have nearly single-handedly ruined any enthusiasm I had for speaking on the subject here. I apologize ahead of time for anyone who feels my rebuttal here is too abrasive as well, but it's this type of posting that gives the impression that there is "correct" way of expressing opinions (apparently using "Personally," on video game "general discussion" board instead of just using common courtesy).
@Izban, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being rude or condescending; it was not my intention, and I apologize. I was merely attempting to say to DLPB that obviously just because you don't buy the game does not mean you're not a real fan, and in the same way just because you buy it does not mean you are too dense/ignorant to understand that it is a money making scheme.
-
You dismissed everything I had to say, and in a very negative way, based on the technicality of my writing, and not my overall meanings. I was attempting to have a friendly discussion which you have nearly single-handedly ruined any enthusiasm I had for speaking on the subject here.
Personally, I believe that I share your subjective impression. In my opinion, I think it is very difficult to have a conversation which does not degenerate into a confrontation.
-
Personally, I believe that I share your subjective impression. In my opinion, I think it is very difficult to have a conversation which does not degenerate into a confrontation.
That seems to be the case. In my opinion, I think people tend to be nicer to those that agree with them, and interpret their posts in a much more positive light.
I agree and I think it is because people tend to be nicer to those that agree with them, and interpret their posts in a much more positive light.
EDIT: Sorry Mayo! I reread my posts to try to eliminate as many possible negative interpretations as I could, then I realized I copied the structure of your previous post. It almost makes it look like I was intentionally copying/mocking if looked out of context.
-
If will turned out good I will buy it.
Honestly this goes the same way as the discussion about Dan's Beacause mod on an other forum. Something actually good is happening and most are against it for some reasons, while other try to defend it.
Ironically I bet that exact the same guys who attacked DLPB's mod are now happy that SE is finally creating a remake and the fact that SE will make changes to the game with which they grow doesn't matter anymore.
At the moment it I can't tell how good the game will be. I have only concerns about the way they present the story and I hope some one is reducing Nomura's great character art to a practical looking way as they once did with the work of Amano.
-
If will turned out good I will buy it.
Honestly this goes the same way as the discussion about Dan's Beacause mod on an other forum. Something actually good is happening and most are against it for some reasons, while other try to defend it.
Ironically I bet that exact the same guys who attacked DLPB's mod are now happy that SE is finally creating a remake and the fact that SE will make changes to the game with which they grow doesn't matter anymore.
At the moment it I can't tell how good the game will be. I have only concerns about the way they present the story and I hope some one is reducing Nomura's great character art to a practical looking way as they once did with the work of Amano.
But what about people like me who are absolutely excited about Dan's mod but are also cautiously optimistic about the remake? I do agree that Nomura's art could use some editing (I don't think that is the term I'm looking for.). I love some of Nomura's art, but I feel he has a tendency to over-design quite often.
-
I'd actually say most people are FOR the retranslation going by overall opinions I've seen online. It varies from site to site (one or two places it's 10-90. Note the 10 is first.), but generally I'd say it's around 70-30. Here at Qhimm's it's even higher than that really.
I certainly don't think criticism of the remake is the same as the one our mod gets - if that were the case, I wouldn't be criticizing the remake. I understand that we have limited info on it, but the info we do have is not a positive thing in my view. Some people aren't bothered if the ATB system gets abandoned and I am. It's looking like that is one of things that will go. I'd think it's obvious why I'd be against that change - because that is a major part of what made me a fan of FF7 in the first place. It IS FF7. I heard the same things when FF13 came out "Oh, well, I didn't really like minigames" and so on.
That isn't a good enough argument. Saying you are ok with change isn't an argument against cutting content or changing the original game in extreme ways.
If this remake deviates in the way I expect and find HIGHLY likely, I won't like it and a good number of the original fans won't like it. There are logical reasons for that to be so. Most criticisms the retranslation get aren't logical because, in that case, we were correcting mistakes - we were not changing the game into something it wasn't or wasn't intended to be. The engine, battle system and everything important is intact.
I'm sure some people are against the remake for the same reason as they dislike our mod. But the two sites I mentioned above that are 90-10 against our retranslation seem to be 90-10 in favour of the remake. That is interesting. I think the die hards out there are happy as long as "canon" is preserved and as long as it's "official". They mostly seem to be against change if it's not ratified by the great God Senix.
Edit:
I also found these nuggets about FF13 and why traditional towns were removed:
In a recent interview with Ultimania, they say that the limit isn't the HD technology, it's the amount of artisanship. "Considering the amount of work to make graphics that deserve HD, it is hard to make towns in the conventional style," said Toriyama. FFVII's graphics were beautiful at the time, but when you consider that we all played them on a 4:3 TV SD screen rather than the 1080p HD behemoths we're all playing games on today, you realize that it's a lot more work for artists to put in to make the game look as epic as Final Fantasy should. That's one reason why FFXIII doesn't have conventional RPG towns.
Kitase agrees, saying that "it is very hard to make games on PlayStation 3 in the same style the games in that era had. Making graphics will take enormous time." So score one for standard definition and the limits of the old pre-HD consoles. Note that neither producer says it's impossible, just a lot of work. So maybe some enterprising young developer will come along and make a solid, HD JRPG in the old-school fashion.
Well, here's an idea... use 720p for FF7 and keep to the same style so you don't need to drop content. Radical!
"Look as epic" - flawed thinking.
-
Wow, getting super technical on our fallacies are we? Just saying: "it's not really a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, it's actually a (Insert Fallacy)" would have sufficed. It's basically like saying, "you used the wrong word for 'there'", and then continue to breakdown the historical use of every phonetically similar word. You knew what I was meaning to say, the uncalled for lecture seems a little abrasive/defensive, or possibly a little self-congratulatory showboating. I was never asserting any type of superiority in my statement, so I'm not appreciating the condescension here. However, I'm not denying you are correct.
Absurd. How defensive can you get?
I took the time to fill out my response, because I know from experience that most people don't react well to having someone
simply assert that they're wrong about something without a reason (ironically, like you did).
I provided a reason as a courtesy, instead of being a douche about it and saying something along the lines of
"Nobody used a no true Scotsman fallacy here. You're wrong, and if you don't know your fallacies, don't use them" or something else to
that effect.
And no, I didn't know what you were saying, because by all accounts, you seemed to be erroneously using a fallacy to make a point in a way
that a lot of people do. I simply pointed that out.
The fact that you responded to my post in the way you did, seems to indicate that A.) you can't handle constructive criticism, or B.) you're projecting all this strawberries over on me, because my reply seemed to peg you exactly for the thing that you now claim I am - "a condescending person engaged in self-congratulatory showboating".
DLPB must have read Izban's post in "bad faith" in order to assume that he was literally talking about every "real fan" was going to buy it then, no? For someone who is keen to "understand" the implications in DLPB's writing, you sure ignored what either Izban or I were "implying" in our posts. Obviously, both DLPB and Izban were making generalizations about a large portion of the actual population they were talking about. But if DLPB was clearly meaning to use a word such as "most", than Izban was as well. If DLPB read Izban's as "all" is it not fair to assume that DLPB's post written in a similar manner was intended to be "all"?
Irrelevant. I was replying to you, not to DLPB - and regardless of what DLPB may or may not have read into Izban's post, your reaction to that was senseless.
But let's play anyways -
DLPB used the word "vast majority", not "all" and so the two are therefore not comparable. Secondly, DLPB has good history on this page - he is generally reasonable - and it's therefore also reasonable to read his posts in good faith. Izban on the other hand, writes like a 13 years old from the 90's who just got his or her hands on MSN messenger, and writes barely coherent posts.
And I'm sorry that my opinions need to say "Personally," before I'm allowed to express them otherwise they are a illogical and ignorant attempts at dismissing DLPB's "facts" because neither of us know everything about everyone.
Nobody said you did. Stop strawmanning.
You said DLPB was "incorrect." That's what I reacted to, because that's not a statement of opinion.
If you think it is, you either need to learn what "opinion" means, or need to learn what "incorrect" means.
It's not possible to be "incorrect in ones opinion".
People may not have quantifiable data regarding the opinions they express, but since we are both long time fans (meaning we've talked about the game and discussed with others for years) we both have a pretty good "feeling" (personal estimation) of what that data would turn out to be.
But they are just that. They're just feelings, and they're in contradiction at that.
So is any one of you more right than the other? I don't know, neither do you, which is why it behooves people to write with a little humility.
The reason I picked on your post, is because your dismissal of DLPB (which I would have no issue with in general, because I don't agree with his statement either) was an obstinate "you're incorrect" statement based on nothing.
Did DLPB say something silly? Yeah maybe he did - you replying with something silly in turn is daft though. You're better than that.
You dismissed everything I had to say, and in a very negative way, based on the technicality of my writing, and not my overall meanings.
What was that exactly? Except for the two first lines I replied to, everything else in your post was a monologue in no way
pertaining to the post that you quoted. Why should I reply to that? I.E I didn't dismiss anything that was pertinent to the reply you made.
I was attempting to have a friendly discussion which you have nearly single-handedly ruined any enthusiasm I had for speaking on the subject here. I apologize ahead of time for anyone who feels my rebuttal here is too abrasive as well, but it's this type of posting that gives the impression that there is "correct" way of expressing opinions (apparently using "Personally," on video game "general discussion" board instead of just using common courtesy).
Get over yourself.
There is a correct way of expressing opinions, and that is as opinions. Saying people are incorrect, and then hiding behind "that's just my opinion", is BS of the third degree. It's lazy, it's condescending and it's rude as F.
Besides, if you're allowed to have "opinions" on whether people are correct or not, so am I and everybody else, so when somebody
replies to you, and takes you to task on your "incorrect opinion" and you react like you just did, you show that you're an over-emotional, entitled
and selective little person.
You don't have enthusiasm anymore? Too bad. People like you ruin my enthusiasm for associating with human beings, so I guess we're equal
in that regards.
@Izban, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being rude or condescending; it was not my intention, and I apologize. I was merely attempting to say to DLPB that obviously just because you don't buy the game does not mean you're not a real fan, and in the same way just because you buy it does not mean you are too dense/ignorant to understand that it is a money making scheme.
If you had actually said that the first time around, I wouldn't have raised an eye-brow.
whoa gaiz.... clearly i poked a nerve.....seriously peeps not giving things a chance casting judgments before things are even shown,let alone played, thats just silly.(opinion... tiz the interwebz gaiz)
No you didn't.
And no, there is nothing silly about managing your expectations based on qualified opinions prior to the release of something.
In fact, not doing that is silly in my opinion.
If you're negative about this release now and the remake turns out great, you'll be positively surprised and the game will feel that much better for it. If it turns out bad, it will just have conformed to your expectations and you'll have lost nothing.
If you buy into the hype on the other hand, and the game turns out good, it will just be what you expected (most you'll
still be disappointed because even if it's good, it doesn't live up to the hype).
If it turns out bad, it will be a massive disappointment instead, and you'll feel like an idiot for investing all that emotion into the hype.
With me now?
-
Keep it courteous, guys. I don't care what opinions you have on the game, but this thread is becoming hostile. If y'all don't cool down a bit, I'm gonna have to lock the thread. ~Covarr
If you're negative about this release now and the remake turns out great, you'll be positively surprised and the game will feel that much better for it. If it turns out bad, it will just have conformed to your expectations and you'll have lost nothing.
If you buy into the hype on the other hand, and the game turns out good, it will just be what you expected (most you'll
still be disappointed because even if it's good, it doesn't live up to the hype).
If it turns out bad, it will be a massive disappointment instead, and you'll feel like an idiot for investing all that emotion into the hype.
You have forgotten a very real middle option: a "wait and see" approach. I don't wanna be too positive about this because I don't deny there really is a high chance they'll Frog this up, but I also don't wanna be too negative lest the game turns out good and I end up looking like a moron for talking Sleep about it. As it stands, they've shown precious little, and for me to form a strong opinion of any sort, whether it be positive or negative, would be foolhardy IMO.
That said, I'm well aware my standards for what I'll enjoy are probably lower, or at least different, from everyone else's. I don't have a problem with broad, sweeping changes inherently, as long as they don't suck in and of themselves (for example, the remake of the movie Sabrina was significantly different than the original, and I thought it was much better for it). I don't necessarily expect anyone to agree with this, but that's how I treat media in general; I'm going to judge it on its own rather than as a Final Fantasy game or a remake, and if it holds up in that respect, I'll have fun with it, and if it doesn't, I won't. I certainly won't judge other people for liking it if I don't or vice versa.
Given that they are going to change things, I'd certainly much rather those changes appear in the form of a remake than patches and updates to the original. People give George Lucas a lot of Slow about changing the original Star Wars, but there really is something to be said about applying creative liberties to a new product rather than halfheartedly MBarriering it onto the original. If nothing else, this allows them to make their changes in such a manner that allows the original to continue existing (Fury you, Star Wars Special Editions), and with a consistent internal tone rather than new material in a framework that really doesn't fit it.
-
Also, I've given Senix plenty of chances. The reason they are still going about making mediocre games is precisely because some will give them endless chances. There does come a point where their track record removes any enthusiasm. And, like Hian said, this is not simply a blind dismissal.
-
Yeah yeah, I am sorry for being hostile. My first post was anything but though. I was replying in kind. Perhaps that's not the smartest thing I could have done, but I am not accustomed to taking shit lying down for no apparent reason.
You have forgotten a very real middle option: a "wait and see" approach. I don't wanna be too positive about this because I don't deny there really is a high chance they'll Frog this up, but I also don't wanna be too negative lest the game turns out good and I end up looking like a moron for talking Sleep about it. As it stands, they've shown precious little, and for me to form a strong opinion of any sort, whether it be positive or negative, would be foolhardy IMO.
I didn't forget it - I just didn't see a point of mentioning it since it didn't pertain to positions held by most people in the conversation.
I don't agree that they've shown "precious little" though (well they have, but not in context). They've shown and said enough to cement the fact that this remake is going to deviate to quite some degree from the original, and very likely in the direction of later spin-off products like AC.
I also don't agree that forming a negative opinion is foolhardy - As I said, if you go in with lowered expectations, there is no real loss so it can hardly be considered foolhardy.
Unless, it's as you say that you're worried about how you'll look if it turns out okay after you voiced
an opinion to the effect that it was going to be bad, which I think is pointless. You can hold an opinion and still qualify it
as something you hold on a scale of probability, not as a certainty - which is what I am doing.
I think it's going to be bad. That does not mean that it will, or that I will have any issue eating those words if it turns out to be good.
There is nothing bad, or embarrassing about being wrong.
Personally, from a perspective of self-development, I think it's better for people to have opinions and learn to be wrong, then for people to avoid having opinions out of fear of being wrong.
That said, I'm well aware my standards for what I'll enjoy are probably lower, or at least different, from everyone else's. I don't have a problem with broad, sweeping changes inherently, as long as they don't suck in and of themselves
Here we agree. My worry though, is that the changes they're planning aren't the kind of changes that would make a reboot/re-imagining a good game in its own right.
(for example, the remake of the movie Sabrina was significantly different than the original, and I thought it was much better for it). And if they are going to change things, I'd certainly much rather those changes appear in the form of a remake than patches and updates to the original. People give George Lucas a lot of Slow about changing the original Star Wars, but there really is something to be said about applying creative liberties to a new product rather than halfheartedly MBarriering it onto the original.
The thing though, is that there is such a thing as good, faithful remakes that aren't just halfhearted semi-upgrades etc.
The Resident Evil 1 HD remake is to my mind, probably the best remake of a PS1 classic (or perhaps of any classic) that I've ever seen.
It manages to be stay the same, and be different at the same time. It's updated in all ways that matter, yet also stays the same
in all ways that matter.
This kinda stuff is possible, and it's because it's possible that FF7R leaves such a sour taste in my mouth after the trailer
and the interviews that we have to go on now.
As DLPB has said several times over - SE has a bad track-record as a company dealing with the FF7 universe, and even
in making JRPGs in general. How many times do they have to screw up before it becomes reasonable to lower one's
expectations of their future projects?
Or are you opposed to lowered expectations in general?
-
It's sad too, because once upon a time I remember being so confident about FF that I could preorder. I preordered FF8 and I think I did FF9 10 and 10-2 (yeah, the one where it all fell apart and I then stopped preordering FF). FF7-10 were so damn good and hardly put a foot wrong. At the very least you were getting something that had been made with passion and effort. But now, you literally could not pay me to play modern FF games.
-
Or are you opposed to lowered expectations in general?
Not so much opposed. People can expect what they want, and I'm in no position to hold that against them, whatever those expectations may be. Personally, I don't like having any expectations at all.
Real life example: I was really disappointed by the Super Mario Maker reveal last year. It seemed underpowered and gimmicky for what it was. Now, having seen the huge improvements made and what they showed this year at E3, I'm really excited for it. On the one hand, I am glad to be proven wrong, but on the other hand, I don't like having to eat my words, y'know? I mean, if you don't mind that, more power to ya. I kinda envy that. But I really don't wanna be in that situation myself, so largely I find it easier to just watch from the sidelines without any expectations either way.
One thing that does give me hope is that Nomura said they won't be adding new characters. I don't know if that means introducing new characters entirely, or not even from anywhere else in the compilation, but it does show that they're at least taking this somewhat seriously, and if they do manage to Berserk this up, it'll be a result of honest incompetence rather than simply not giving a Confusion. I can somewhat forgive misguided passion.
-
I'm going to judge it on its own rather than as a Final Fantasy game or a remake, and if it holds up in that respect, I'll have fun with it, and if it doesn't, I won't.
I too would be inclined to that, but seriously I think that will be hard, very hard.
That game will be a game on its own, okay, a revisited FF VII, another kind... but still FF VII. I can't see myself not thinking about the original if I play the remake, it's just impossible, comparisons will rise by themselves in our heads.
Now if it is for the better, then the greater ! I'll just Berserk my pants and go hug squirrels. If they make something valuable out of a new vision of FF VII, improving on the original, I'll be all for it obviously. And what would be the point of a remake if it's not improvement ?
But now if you tell me that the point is to boost the PS4 sales, well yeah my hopes aren't high at all.
Even if we consider and play the remake as an independent entity I think that comparisons will be unavoidable, and that parts of our opinion will be influenced by them.
We have a high opinion of the original, the tougher for SE, as fans we should be asking them for a piece of work of very high quality. Here I'm not debating what or how your standards may be for an independent game to be enjoyed by you, we're all different persons, different gamers, and that's all good. I'm just saying that the trend seems to be 'Let's hope it's not strawberries' rather than 'Hey it's fucking FF VII we're talking about, you rather give us the dope man!'. But it's more like, oh it's about FF VII? Okay, then anything will do... And that's a pitty. ( here I'm not saying that you Covarr said something like that )
( and shit, you cast Berserk before I did, while I was typing x) )
-
I think one thing people might also be forgetting is that, just because you might have some enthusiasm for the remake, does not necessarily mean you are going to buy it, let alone at full price. I have some excitement, but it's not as though I have a Senix's store linked to my bank account, allowing them to make whatever they want. I was EXTREMELY interested in FF Type-0, but I haven't bought it and am not going to because after I learned more I discovered it was not my cup of tea.
It is logical to have low expectations, because it is basically a win-win, except for when you have to eat your words like Covarr said. That being said, however, sometimes its fun to have a little enthusiasm, to let the announcement brighten your day a little, even if by the time it comes all you have to say is "meh" to it. That exact scenario played out for me regarding Mass Effect 3 (excited initially but never bought it), and I survived it, and I probably would do it again.
I don't think, I may be wrong, but I don't think all viewpoints on the remake are bimodal. It seems to me like more of a gradient of expectations, where Covarr seems to be middle (wait and see), DLPB and hian seem to be lower (nearly convinced it will be crap), and others somewhere between all three. (I personally am more wait and see but undeniably a little happy about the news).
-
I agree, but not with the word "nearly". I feel certain it will be crap haha. But I'll be happy if I am wrong. I just don't expect to be in the slightest. I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo. I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihlaR7ubfOg
yay!
-
It has changed since then...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee2JfoMplUw
-
It's still the same hack slash chaotic system... The original point is still the same imho. It's not as bad as original video but there's still very little tactical thinking going on (and, as usual, one character). Real time combat is hard to pull off. Ocarina of Time did it, but it (and similar) had real thought put into it.
-
Lock, Ice Arrow, hook-shot your icy foe and get near, Fire of Din in his face, slice him with Biggoron sword 8)
Now imagine Cait Sith jumping around everywhere, hitting everything with his megaphone and shouting at everyone ( dubbed by the Nyan Cat ).. Dan's living wet dream
-
I do feel that there is a very good chance that the FF7 remake and FFXV will share a lot of similarities based on the knowledge that they are being made around the same time, that Square spent so much time and money developing the engine for FFXV, and that they seem to be very proud of FFXV and the type of game it is (renaming FFVSXIII to FFXV). I hope that if that really is the case, that FF7 will be able to correct some of the issues people will have in the final release of FFXV (at least when it comes to real time combat).
It's strange to think that these three things are true simultaneously: I am generally accepting of real time combat, many of my favorite games are real time combat, and one of my favorite game series of all time is Zelda, but I don't think that the hacky slashy part of Zelda has been executed very well (as far as 3D entries go. I'm not as experienced in the 2D entries) except for maybe Twilight Princess (don't particularly like this entry overall) and Wind Waker (I love this one though). It is generally too simplistic for my taste.
My personal opinion of hack and slashy 3D combat is that it has been nearly perfected in two different styles: Devil May Cry (1, 3, and 4) and the Souls series (Demon's, Dark, Bloodborne). Devil May Cry is fast & frantic action where the strategy comes from stringing together combos, dodging, and proper use of abilities and skills to kill everything in the most flashy way possible. I would say the complexity of that series rivals that of fighting games in terms of truly mastering characters. The Soul's series, on the other hand, has a very slow and deliberate pace where the goal is to value all of the moves and decisions you make in order to survive long enough to learn enough about the area and/or enemies to make it to the next checkpoint. These two series are why I can't bring myself to dismiss a game based on whether it has real time combat, because if any game could make the gameplay as deep as either of those two in real time I would buy it in a heartbeat.
That being said, it seems most modern third person action games have aimed to be in the middle of the two, in order to not require the thinking present in the Souls series or the reflexes required in the Devil May Cry series, but still retain the flashy action that makes for hype trailers. I guess I just hope in my mind that any game that is announced to have real time combat that it will satisfy me on at least one of those two fronts and am optimistic about the possibility until I am proven wrong.
But I do understand more and more by reading some of the viewpoints here, and elsewhere, that a lot of fans are very attached to FF7's combat, or the combat of the series pre-FFXII in general, and I can similarly understand why the entire series going down this new road can be so frustrating and make Senix seem so short-sighted. I know I'd be confused and frustrated if Dark Souls IV or Devil May Cry 5 were turn based.
-
I agree, but not with the word "nearly". I feel certain it will be crap haha. But I'll be happy if I am wrong. I just don't expect to be in the slightest. I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo. I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:
Personally, I can't really rate my own conviction here. It could pan out in many different ways -
What I can speak to, is my worry and my anxiety, and they are off the charts when it comes to FF7R.
I am not at all sure that it will be bad - I am afraid that I will be bad. I am very afraid that it will be bad.
As for action systems - they generally don't work with party-centered RPGs, which is why I am usually opposed to them in party-centered RPGs.
They can work in single-player RPGs because you only have one bloke to worry about.
The moment you add more, it becomes cluttered - I mean, even if they're just NPCs, they're still a hindrance more often
than not, which is why even in action games, people usually loath missions where you have to keep an NPC alive
as you run through level.
Action systems require immediate focus and twitch sensibilities - that doesn't work well with party-play most of the time,
which is problematic when RPGs often try to tell stories about a party of people going off on an adventure.
Apart from table-top conventions and traditions, that's one of the reasons the JRPG turn-based system was made to
begin with - to allow players to control (strategical control at that) an entire party of characters by themselves.
The ability to micro-manage every move of your entire party is a prerequisite for successful party play,
unless it's a multi-player game, or the A.I is fantastic.
The problem with the former is that this creates a plethora of issues (what if you don't have any friends to play with etc.?),
and the latter is that A.I's simply aren't that advanced yet, and are probably never going to be as good as a character
with a human being the sticks.
The party dynamic was one of the things I loathed about type-0 - I am all choked up trying to fend for the character I am controlling -
too much so to worry about what the other characters are getting up to, and before I know it, they're dying like flies because they're fvcking incompetent (not to mention that this game doesn't have an efficient system for healing characters you're not controlling, since
the spell are next to impossible to target allies with, and going to the menu for items doesn't pause the game,
meaning that the enemy will keep attacking while you're frantically searching for healing items on the menu that covers
the entire screen).
You can side-step all of those issues simply by opting for a turn-based system - or like in the Star Wars - Knights of the Old republic games, add a pause function that still allows you to change characters, queue orders/commands, use items etc.
The issue here is that we know that Nomura is not going to opt for the old battle system - we know that it's likely (though not to what degree) that they'll opt for an action system. The problem is that SE and the FF teams do not have a good track-record of
developing action battle systems.
Every single FF game I've played with an action-centric combat system have been horrible.
Dirge of Cerberus had a miserable camera and a lack-luster combat system that felt like a botched and bastardized child
of early Syphon Filter and Devil May Cry as designed by a bunch of people who hadn't payed attention
to the development of 3d person action games the last decade before they decided to attempt to make one.
Type-0 was, in its most basic form, a joy to play on the PS Vita with two analogue sticks, but it was plagued by horrible
balancing issues, and contrived game-play mechanics like
- no proper means of revival in missions, except for
one spell, and a very limited supply of Phoenix Downs that resulted in the "reraise" state on party members for
a limited amount of time)
- Menu not pausing the game, and pausing the game not allowing you to browse the menu
- No proper way of targeting allies with quick items or spells
- Quick item slot defaulting to empty once you run out of the item you equipped, forcing you to go to the [unpausing] menu
to change it
- enemies getting kill-sight attacks on your party despite the fact that you have no proper revival options, or enemies
randomly going into "aggro" mode where they glow gold and can suddenly one-hit-kill your characters
- Not being able to exchange the 3 primary party-members for reserves unless one of them dies or if you're at
a save-point.
- Not being able to change skills/equipment except at save-points
and the list keeps on going.
FF15 is plagued by horrible camera, a contrived lock-on system, relatively flat combat with no real challenged except by
bosses with ridiculous amounts of HP and DMG.
In fact, the only FF action RPG that isn't horrible of the top of my head, is Crisis Core, but the combat there was limited to one
character, and was still pretty flat and repetitive most of the time.
So, point in case -
If they're going to remove the turn-based(ATB) system - and use an action system, the rate of failure increases exponentially unless they
A.) make Cloud the only playable character, which would be really fvcking boring in a game with a larger than life cast like FF7
B.) introduce a proper pause command menu
As a developer,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the only system that I think could appeal to both old and new fans with FF7R
while retaining strategical party play is a semi-ATB action system -
Perhaps where moving about and attacking/dodging is done in free-time, while item/magic/limit break
are tied to a command menu that can only be opened for each individual character once their respective ATB gauge is filled,
and when opened either stops or slows down time to allow the player to make deliberate choices (also with
the possibility of slowing down or stopping down time whenever else too, such as when changing characters).
That way you could get best of both worlds.
You could even add an option in the menu to adjust the time or slowing of speed that happens upon opening the command menu
to be true to the adjustment of the battle-speed in the original game.
Add a possibility to tie certain skills/items/magic to a quick use function mapped to the d-pad or something to that effect
so the action freaks won't have to scroll through menus all the time to get to the spells they want to use, and you have
a pretty good system going.
You could be dashing about with Cloud in one moment, stop time, change to Barret, fire up the command menu, set up a fire spell,
change back to Cloud and then continue on dashing about without any issues what so ever.
Everybody is happy.
Will SE do this? Probably not.
Unfortunately, I don't think Nomura has the design sense, nor the creativity to actually imagine a system like that.
-
Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>
Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.
Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>
From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.
Gotta Agree with StickySock on the whole Zelda being an amazing game, while lacking a deep combat system(windwaker having the most complex combat in the series), no combo system(scored or otherwise) very limited movelist, sure you have a whole mess of items that shuffle the combat a little, but brass tax is transition is too clunky for it to really shine, Darksiders is an excellent example of a deepish combat system with some RPG elements strapped on, Darksiders 2 the beautiful buggy mess it is takes many steps forward but a small one back in that there is no dedicated way to block. The soul series quite probably one of the deepest/deliberate combat systems floating around in a non fighter, really it only adds a stamina bar and slows down play which in of itself increases immersion. Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.
<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>
Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.
hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian
-
hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian
Yes, which makes me wonder why you made the posts you did to begin with, unless you were trolling for reactions.
That being said, that was a much more reasonable post, despite the snark and your forced insertion of "<opinion></opinion>"
which seems to imply you either missed my point entirely or are persisting in trollish behavior in direct contradiction to the request
of a moderator.
Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>
I highly doubt you speak like this
"whoa gaiz.... clearly i poked a nerve.....seriously peeps not giving things a chance casting judgments before things are even shown,let alone played, thats just silly.(opinion... tiz the interwebz gaiz)" - but whatever, I'll humor you all the same.
As for context? What context would that be? Besides, in regards to your post, it's not the grammar or spelling I was critiquing. I don't mind spelling mistakes - And in your case, it's patently obvious it wasn't done by mistake - it was a conscious choice, and that's what made me make the comment I did.
You didn't type like a baboon on accident - you chose to do so. That's actually worse.
Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.
While separate yes - with different teams and different people in creative control. Now every content creator in SE answers to
a much larger pressure group of financial backers than before, as cogs in a huge economical enterprise that does a lot
more than just gaming at this point.
The first games you mention were all made before the merger, when the structure and scale of each company was completely was completely different, and before they started pumping out half-assed game after half-assed game.
As for the rest :
- Star Ocean wasn't developed by SE, or Squaresoft or Enix - it was developed by Tri-Ace and published by Enix, and now SE.
- Sword of Mana was mostly out-sourced to the co-production company Brownie Brown and is a Nintendo product produced
by Koichi Ishii, who has only worked on Nintendo production for the last decade - the last being the 3DS edition of Major's Mask.
- Secret of Mana is another Square Product that was produced by Hiromichi Tanaka, who hasn't done active work for
SE since the FFIII DS release back in 2006.
- Secret of Evermore was produced by Square's North American branch, people who have nothing to do with modern Japan-based
SE games what so ever.
- FF12 isn't an action RPG, it's a free-roam ATB game. The battle system, with the exception of on-map enemies and the ability
to move your characters while fighting, uses the exact same core system as the PS1 era Final Fantasies. It's also not a very good FF game in my opinion (could have been a great sequel to Vagrant Story, or an off-shot title to FF:Tactics).
It also started development 3 years before the merger, and was hampered by re-organization tied to the merger (which they then
tied up to a bunch of BS personal reasons, but Sakaguchi's initial hostility to the changes in staff and the timing speaks to
true nature of what was going on back then).
Non of these examples build into an argument of confidence for SE's ability to make a good action RPG, or even a good RPG, out of the FF7R. In fact, it makes the exact opposite argument - namely, how is SE supposed to make a good JRPG when all the primary minds behind their best games are no longer working for them on in-house productions?
Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>
Here's some game development 101 - the only people who "really" matter are the ones who call the shots (off course everybody matters though - without a team of dedicated scripters, no game would be made at all - my point is that they're ultimately working on directives).
FF7R could have 90% of the same staff as the original, but with a different writer, producer, executive producer, game/system designers, it could turn out a completely different game.
The majority of the work done on big budget games, is done by the scripters and designers on the floor - but they're only doing what they're told to do by the people with the creative function and executive power in the office with the big white-boards and projectors.
The people who made the games you just mentioned great - are no longer with SE, or working in the Nintendo/handheld branch and clearly won't be touching this product.
It doesn't matter if Nomura can scrap up the original event scripter, or battle event planner from the original game. They are not the ones who decide how the game turns out in the end.
The parent company of SE, lost a lot of people after the "merger"(I hate it when people call it that - it wasn't a merger, it was Squaresoft being bought out by Enix, and treated pretty poorly at that), and they've lost even more over the years with their constant change in direction alienating a lot of the old crowd.
From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.
As a person who has Episode Duscae, I'd say the problems are pretty fundamental. You can try to put wrapping on a dung, but it's still just a dung.
I don't really get your analogy though - since FF15 seems literally to be the RPG equivalent of modern FPS games compared to the classic FPS games.
Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.
Here we agree. In fact, Rogue Galaxy is easily on my "top 5 JRPGs of all time"-list, and easily has one of the best battle system of any single player, non-fighting game that I can think of.
It trumps pretty much everything that SE has ever tried to do in terms of ARPG system by such a large stretch it's not even worth considering.
If FF7R took a leaf out of Rogue Galaxy, I could live with the change. But then again, Rogue Galaxy was made by Level-5 who're generally geniuses when it comes to game-design in general.
If and only if SE had outsourced the remake. There literally are so many more qualified dev teams to handle this right now, than
any in-house SE effort.
<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>
Then perhaps you should try to eat your own feces just to make sure that it tastes horrible and isn't good for you - you know, because judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea and all that?
On second though...
Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.
Oh the irony... The god damn irony...
You'd think that not making a judgement about something you don't know anything about, would include not making a god damn pre-order. But hey, what do I know?
-
Yeah, I have to say - this whole "You need to play it before you have an opinion" is a very weak (wet toilet paper) and tired argument and I've heard it a number of times in the past too. Before FF13 came out, I was fairly sure I'd hate it (based, once again, on interviews and such). I got told that was unfair. Then it did come out and I watched numerous videos and read reviews and refused to buy it on that basis. I got told that was silly because I had to have played it - not watched someone else - before I could have an opinion.
I think what's really happening is fanboy goggles and the intolerance to a negative opinion. I hardly ever see people shouted down for positive views, no matter the lack of logic or evidence. It's only when someone says something in the negative that opinion suddenly doesn't count. It's probably why religion got off the ground too - because people like to believe in sky fairies compared to blunt, unhappy reality.
In fact, here's a snippet of one of the debates I had about it (2010).
seifer, I'm not sure if he's defending it necessarily as a good or fun game. He's just analyzing the logic and progression of the design that the game actually exhibits.
Of course, you wouldn't have any first-hand experience with XIII's design logic and progression since you've never played it.
As you keep reminding people. And as I keep reminding you, watching hours of video and reading tons of reviews means that I can criticise it fairly. I don't need to see the contents of a nappy to know what lies therein, nor do I need to understand the logical structure of the game to know what the devlopers have said.
Seifer, his critique is about the progression of battles from minute 1 to the endgame. So unless you've watched Youtube clips from the opening to closing cutscenes, including the set-up of each individual battle formation, you probably haven't the adequate experience to counter his analysis (which is, in fact, an analysis and not a critique of what the developers were too lazy to include in their RPG adventure - a point you continue to bring up, and which generally has no relevance to what XIII actually is).
And are you really saying that by reading reviews and watching clips on Youtube you can criticize something fairly? Like, really? Are you kidding?
I gave back an incredibly sarcastic and immature response to this so won't post it. I used to be far worse than I am now. ;D
If he was correct, we wouldn't have review sites, would we? Clearly just buys games without even bothering to find out if they are rubbish and/or to his fancy.
-
I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.
-
I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.
I don't agree with that for the reasons I and Hian have given. We aren't giving absolutes, we are giving our opinion that in all likelihood it's going to be very poor. We do that on the basis of interviews, what we've seen so far, Senix track record, and videos they have/will release. At the moment, it isn't "definitive", but I was absolutely sure FF13 would have a lazy battle system and that I wouldn't like it before it came out and I was right. Equally, I believe I am going to be just as right this time. But time will tell. More interviews, more videos will give a more rounded view before it's even on the shelf. I think videos are the most valuable, you can spot suck very easily. I am looking forward to the videos they release.
I promise you that if I see something good in them, I will have a positive opinion on them. I am, however, falling into the trap of saturating the subject. So, with that, I'll leave until there's more to go on.
-
Hian's analysis of Square Enix's action track record is pretty spot on IMO, as well as his thoughts on a hybrid system, and the fact that square is unlikely to actually create something that would satisfy both fan bases.
When it comes to Hian's and Dan's distain for the "don't knock it 'till you try" mentality, I completely agree. Another good analogy is that I never want to try crack, because I assume I may in fact become addicted and have it ruin my life. It's a thought I formed without having to try it based on knowledge of other cases and my own personal feelings. At the same time, I don't think it is wrong to let yourself be swept up in the excitement of the promise of something great (even if Square has no reason to make me actually believe it), as long as you didn't literally buy into or are being consistently duped, as some "diehard" fans may unfortunately experience from time to time.
But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.
I don't think that people who are excited should not be, or that people who are pessimistic should not be either. We all have our reasons, and at the end of the day, logic is only impartial when viewed from within our own personal set of parameters for defining what logic is (probably could and would like to continue that discussion with anyone who wants to somewhere else).
The aspect of this discussion I have enjoyed reading and making lazy attempts to participate in is what we think we will see out of this game and what we hope or fear will come from it as well.
-
It's still the same hack slash chaotic system...
I have played games (like Dragons Dogma) which have a similar system and are far away from being chaotic. Xenonblade Chronicles, which is like FFXII, was actually the first modern game which has felt like a true JRPG. So I wouldn't make the battle system that important.
Don't get me wrong I think the battle system is important but it need a drastically renew in its tactical department. As much as I believe it, they will make very close to the original, at last I haven't seen a remake of SE were they simply changed it (the port of The World ends with You to android doesn't count).
-
But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.
This is very true, and in all likelihood, the new generation of FF players (and possible FF players) probably enjoy the kind of game-play we see in FF15 than in the original FF7, which is why that's what we're likely to see in the remake.
It's a simply economical equation - if you're making a multi-million dollar production on what amounts to loaned money, you need to make sure that the products sell to as many people as possible. The original FF7 purists do not make up enough of the market to warrant being the primary target demographic for the remake considering the costs of it.
My problem is that this is a dick move of SE. After all, as I've said before, the FF franchise is here today because of the original FF7 fans.
Who's been asking for the remake? The fans of the original.
What kind of remake do most of these fans want? Difficult to answer, but my guess would be one that is close to the original.
What SE is doing now, to my mind, if they don't make the remake true to the original, is shitting in the face of those fans, their contribution to the franchise and the company and their legacy -
They're essentially going "Here you are - we're going to take advantage of the publicity that follows from finally 'giving in to fan demands' by
'remaking' one of gaming history's most iconic games, but we're going to market and shape it for a bunch of people who don't actually have a relationship with the game despite the fact that they might very well have been satisfied by a stand-alone original title anyway".
It reeks as a ploy of greedy corporation big-shots fueled by diagrams and power-point presentations done by marketing executives who don't give a flying fvck about FF as a piece of art, or about the history, culture and traditions surrounding the franchise.
I don't mind innovation. I don't mind action-focused FF games. But, if you want to make something like that - do like with FF15 - make an original title.
What I mind is exploiting the success of a former product to push out something resembling it - riding the wave so to speak - which is still fundamentally different.
Imagine if the Lord of The Rings movies hadn't come out yet, and they had just been announced - with the caveat that they would be set in a cyber-punk dystopian future of humanity on Mars. You know, just to capture a wider movie-going audience.
Would that sit well with fans of the books? No.
Would the reply "well, you still have the books so you can just enjoy those instead" be a good reply to those disdained fans? No.
I don't begrudge new possible fans a good FF game with an action system to play - in fact, they already probably have one coming up with FF15.
What I begrudge them is a multi-million dollar re-production of my favorite game, which I have been wanting and advocating for, for years, that is tailored to these people who neither played nor had a relationship to the game to begin with, at the expense of the things that made me like the game to begin with.
Why should they get that? What's the point? Except using us original fans, and the original game's reputation, as a spring-board for hype and image-building when they finally release it to the wider public ("hey you, I know you never played an FF game before, but look at this game - it's one of video-game history's most iconic titles, and we've remade it for the fans, and look they're teary eyed with joy! You should check it out!").
It's really fvcking sneaky, and it's really fvcking rude - if it's the case, that is.
If it is the case though, I'll literally fill a box with shit and rotten meat, and mail it to Nomura so that his house will never smell the same again, ever. Then, I'll never buy a SE product again, ever, just for good measure.
-
The last thing I bought from Squaresoft/Square-enix was a used copy of FF12 (technically they didn't make money from me, Gamestop did). That's not likely to change in the foreseeable future. I just don't enjoy mindless, strategy-less beat-em-ups where your characters are godly and can never die. If you want to tell a story, make a fucking movie. Games need to be interactive, and the remake most likely will fail that test.
-
In all this time I have held off from making a final verdict on Square until I see the fruits of the labor that is Final Fantasy XV. When the game was first announced I was a dedicated Square fan just finishing up my adventures in Kingdom Hearts II and Final Fantasy XII. I was super hyped after KHII and although XII wasn't the greatest, at least it had a semblance of challenge in the bonus dungeon and battle with Omega Weapon.
Since then I have gotten nothing but disappointed by Squares offerings hoping that XIII Versus would come along and reign forgiveness on the massacre that was the rest of XIII's saga. I was also hoping that Kingdom Heats III would do something similar but since we never even heard anything about that game until recently my hope and excitement for that series died off considerably. The only game I have moderately enjoyed since then was Star Ocean IV and I am not sure that really counts as a Square game since its mostly an effort of Tri-Ace, and even then I didn't like it nearly as much as the first three.
Now I don't really play everything that Square publishes but I do at least try most of their JRPG's and nothing has really captured the spirit of Final Fantasy since X for me other than some of the mobile remakes for III and IV. All this to say that in the period I have spent in anticipation of XV, I have gone from a firm believer in Square as one of my favorite publishers to someone who barely even cares enough to hang on for XV to be finished. I will try it first though before judgement as anything can really happen at this point. We don't know the intricacies of XV's battle system just yet until we get our hands on it but if they removed character switching then in my book that does not bode well so far.
Still comparing a video game publisher to an addictive substance like crack cocaine is a bit of stretch. Unlike the obvious and unchanging effects of such a substance, a publishing company is dynamic. People are capable of realizing their past failings and rising above the stigma to create something wonderful. Will they? I'd say the odds aren't good that the original team can overcome their seeming hubris to achieve this, yet we really cannot and will not know until the game is fully realized. I for one don't wish to speculate about things I have such limited information on.
If anything I don't want to put so much energy into assuming it will be garbage. Any emotional investment I had in the series was long ago obliterated by XIII so even if it is it won't really affect me in any negative way. Yet if somehow they pulled it off and made something that is worthwhile, even if not perfect, that is nothing but a benefit to me. Will it be a replica? We already have a definite answer on that so if that's all you'll accept then I suppose I can accept your negativity if not fully understand it. I personally never wanted a replica but something that is more fully vetted than the original could have possibly been at the time of its inception.
Any significant change in the story would be fairly uncalled for but as far as the mechanics and game-play; we have had almost 20 years of progress since the original so to simply mimic it on such a powerful system as the PlayStation 4 would be kind of a waste in my opinion. Now does that mean that they will automatically get it right? Of course not, and I am not half expecting them to do so either. I simply know enough now to know that anything could happen at this point.
It wouldn't be the first unexpected surprise to happen in the world of gaming and it most certainly wouldn't be the last. At the least I would rather be positive in hoping for something good to come of this than just assume what seems most likely to happen. If it was me in that position I would at least hope I had enough humanity to recognize when I am wrong and start over. That's up the dev team themselves to decide though so anything I feel or say wouldn't really change a thing. If it was an open source project that'd be one thing, but its not, so I say they are free to make their Remake and I am free to ignore it if it happens to be garbage. Anything more than that and I really just don't give a shit enough to guess at.
-
Any significant change in the story would be fairly uncalled for but as far as the mechanics and game-play; we have had almost 20 years of progress since the original so to simply mimic it on such a powerful system as the PlayStation 4 would be kind of a waste in my opinion. Now does that mean that they will automatically get it right? off course not, and I am not half expecting them to do so either. I simply know enough now to know that anything could happen at this point.
We've had almost 20 years of change - some of it has been progressive, some of it has been regressive.
We could have a lot of discussion on whether or not the original FF7's game-play mechanics are outdated or not - but the FF13 battle system, which is fairly traditional by most standards, or the general game-play of games like Bravely Default, clearly demonstrate that the conventions of FF7 aren't out of date in the sense of use, nor have they been left behind by progression within the medium.
Personally, which is where I think I differ from DLPB, I am not making the argument that I want the remake to be exactly the same as the original in terms of basic game-play.
There are many game-play variations I can conceive of as being good in their own right, or true to the spirit of the game - my problem lies in the idea that the game-play needs to be drastically different (such as a complete transition to an ARPG system), or that it should be changed because the original mechanics are somehow bad or flawed.
By most accounts, and I say this as a developer myself, the original systems are brilliant -
their primary sin is how poorly balanced, and sometimes poorly realized they are, not the systems in and of themselves.
- The Materia system is great because it allows for completely free customization of all characters, meaning that the player is free to
pick their party largely only being concerned about which characters they want to experience the narrative with, and not being forced (in general) to play with characters they don't like on a personal level (like Cait Sith ;P ).
The fault lies in sub-par balancing of the materia effects in battle, which is relatively easy to fix with more play-testing.
- The transition system for battles/random encounters are clever because it allows a game to play out epic, big-scale battles with
little to no concern with the environments of the game, clipping/edge detection issues, movement A.I, and many other aspects of the game.
The fault lies in the lack of ability to adjust/turn off encounter-rates at the player's leisure, which is easy to fix by adding a simple
menu command.
- The turn-based/ATB system is great because it allows for party micro-management and 1-man "team-play" taking full use of the potential of several members of the cast at once.
The fault lies in the static and "unrealistic" nature of it, which is easy to fix through stylistic changes such as having the characters
move automatically around on the battle-screen in-between turns to make the battle look more dynamic, adding alternative battle-animations for attacks, etc.
- The mini-games are inspired works of creativity, that serves to break up otherwise very repetitive and standard RPG game-play convention of -town/resource exchange, dungeon/battle/resource gathering, story-segment-, into a more diverse experience
with action-, racing-, sports- and fighting-game conventions.
The fault lies in poor execution due to limited time and hardware, with clunky controls and bad responsiveness, which are all easy to
address given the experience the company now has on other titles, and the new hardware resources now available to them.
My point with these examples, is that there are plenty of changes that SE can make to the original system to make it more "exciting" or "accessible" to people without changing it entirely, and that non of these systems that require up-dating are silly, outdated PSX-era conventions that no-body use or like anymore, as a lot of people seem to suggest these days.
FF7 requires polish to be up to today's standards - and more polish than just to the script, the graphics, and the sound, but also to the game-play, such as balance, controls, and style. It does not however require a total overhaul, which is what it seems to be getting.
In many ways, keeping the original game-play and simply adding polish might actually teach the new generation the merit of those kinds of games, and lead to a renaissance for the JRPG genre. I see no reason why this can't happen a second time around.
It's not like the original FF7 wasn't also competing with good games from different genres.
[I remember the big debate between gamers back in elementary/junior high school was "which is better FF7 or Ocarina of Time?"(despite almost a two year release gap, between the two).]
-
Sorry to revive this thread; I stumbled upon this:
http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/222698/20150722/final-fantasy-7-ps4-remake-news.htm (http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/222698/20150722/final-fantasy-7-ps4-remake-news.htm)
It is not gonna be AC FF7... Yes, not a reuse of resources. Anyone with some knowledge about information technology would probably have figured that one out already. But I bet it will be emo AC Cloud and emo AC Tifa. It will be the extended universe FF7, not the original FF7.
New gameplay because noone can pinpoint what FF7 is? FF7 is not a car. It is not a movie. It is not a puzzle game. It's a turn based JRPG.
FF7R released when it's scheduled will probably be at it's most profitable. SE knows this. Reeling in on nostalgic factor, curiosity factor ("what's the big deal with FF7") and hype factor at the same time. See tranformers for proof.
-
.
-
Well i dunno, i'm almost sure somewhere else in this forum i read that someone in square enix that's actually working on or was working on ff15 is here with us somewhere. Who's to say the information we give out about isn't being relayed to the remake creators? If we do it right we could have an influence on how its created?
-
Kpopstars.... That says it all.
They're well known for making bogus articles and they're just living off lying clickbait articles for more ad revenue. Don't believe a word from that website.
So all that is random BS they made up without legit source of proof like all their other articles.
That's what I was going to say, that site is exactly that. They were announcing fake official release dates (not rumours) for the latest GPUs that were to come, that's how I got to know about them. That site is a shame.
But that one article seems legit, on thelifestream.net you have the full interview that has been translated from Japanese by someone from their forums.
http://thelifestream.net/news/final-fantasy-vii-news/33038/ffvii-remake-nomura-interview-translation-from-famitsu/ (http://thelifestream.net/news/final-fantasy-vii-news/33038/ffvii-remake-nomura-interview-translation-from-famitsu/)
So kpopshit just took it and published a part of it without giving any source..
Well i dunno, i'm almost sure somewhere else in this forum i read that someone in square enix that's actually working on or was working on ff15 is here with us somewhere. Who's to say the information we give out about isn't being relayed to the remake creators? If we do it right we could have an influence on how its created?
That's L.Spiro, but I don't know if she/he is working on the remake. And even if it was the case, I really doubt she/he can take any decision on the kinds of matter we're discussing here (which parts of the story will be kept and which won't, elements of gameplay, the battle system, the mood of the game, the humour - etc ).
But that'd be really great if a decision taker from SquareEnix could come here just to read through this thread and see what we're saying, our ideas, our thoughts.. I think there are good points that are said and that are discussed here.
-
L. Spiro is an engine programmer. He almost certainly won't have any say in anything related to the game's actual design.
As far as I can tell, the problem we have here is that Nomura and Nojima are stuck in a positive feedback loop. It's not that they don't know people disagree with their opinions, as clearly shown by the Famitsu interview, but that they keep playing yes-man to each other's ideas, regardless of how good or bad they are. And then the games sell anyway, which reaffirms this. So they're trapped in their own little world, where garbage like Advent Children was good, without any incentive to see reality.
For what it's worth, they really are putting their all into this. They really want to make a good product. It's not at all that they're lazy and just pumping something out because they know it will sell, and entirely that they genuinely think that what they're doing is the best thing to do. It's like how Adam Sandler keeps making awful movies, but they keep bringing in money, which tells him that people like them and they are good, so he never has cause to re-evaluate anything.
-
I just thought if i were the owner the best way for me to sell this game was to find out exactly what the fans wanted. By now they know there's mods and more than likely know about this forum. A wise choice for them would be to use us to make it perfect. There never gonna find a collection of fans as large as this so its kinda a jackpot to them. I would without a doubt if it was me
-
They only have to make it modable. That's the only thing I ask for.
If they would come down from their high horses and do this they would get an incredible feedback, which they could use for new projects.
Nomura: There certainly are some staff who put too much of a focus on the ‘VII-ness’ and are resistant to changing it. But that FFVII-ness isn’t something you can easily point to and say ‘that’s it!’ about, and it means different things for different people. I’ve got a lot of attachment to VII myself. But those “feelings” and being “trapped” by the FF of the past are two separate things. If you make up your mind, “‘FF is like this,” then you can’t make FF.
Now I understand it. Someone has told them that FF is like a good JRPG game... :evil:
Needs someone that tell them that modern FFs are like tradition breakers. Would be interesting how they solve this paradox...
Really my expectation to this remake getting lower and lower after reading it.
-
Even if FF7r is modable, there are 2 major issues
1. The game will be huge in size and probably a lot of the content will be on disc (and not on Hard drive). It may well be that modding the game is simply impractical given the files and their formats and sizes.
2. All tools would need to be remade and new formats decoding, and getting people to do that is no easy task. It's taken years to get us where we are with current FF7 from 1997.
In other words, putting my usual doom and gloom about, I don't foresee a modded FF7r happening.
-
The only mods I can see for FF7R will be a GeDoSaTo profile for downsampling and an ENB/SweetFX setting for better coloring and lighting.
-
Kpopstars.... That says it all.
They're well known for making bogus articles and they're just living off lying clickbait articles for more ad revenue. Don't believe a word from that website.
So all that is random BS they made up without legit source of proof like all their other articles.
Oh, I had no idea. Just kinda stumbled upon it. Well anyways, it kinda does sound legit. I mean, nothing new -or things we didn't already know- is said here.
-
Even if FF7r is modable, there are 2 major issues
1. The game will be huge in size and probably a lot of the content will be on disc (and not on Hard drive). It may well be that modding the game is simply impractical given the files and their formats and sizes.
2. All tools would need to be remade and new formats decoding, and getting people to do that is no easy task. It's taken years to get us where we are with current FF7 from 1997.
In other words, putting my usual doom and gloom about, I don't foresee a modded FF7r happening.
If its on a pc then at some point or another it will get modified on some level however if they don't release sdk and a creation kit then any substantial modifications would be beyond the scope patience and or ability of many programmers. If it did happen it would takes years and some extremely skillful reverse engineering. Knowing square and Japanese culture in general they definitely will not encourage modifications of the game and doing so will be a royal pain
-
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/30/final-fantasy-7-remakes-combat-will-feature-dramatic-changes-draw-inspiration-from-advent-children
-
For crying out loud, IGN, is it really that hard to write an honest headline?
Nomura says "We are going to be bringing dramatic changes, but we want to make sure it’s still recognizable," so off course the headline only mentions the dramatic changes. Nomura says the visuals will draw inspiration from Advent Children, the headline implies the combat mechanics will draw inspiration from Advent Children.
This bullSephiroth is precisely why I don't read IGN. They have taken what amounts to things we already knew and rephrased it to sound worse. Good job, guys.
-
.
-
Off topic but Covarr did you change my Avatar?? :o
No, if I was gonna change someone's avatar, it would either be a pirate (the same pirate avatar I always use) or EQ2Alyza (has she even noticed I made her global moderator?).
-
.
-
No, if I was gonna change someone's avatar, it would either be a pirate (the same pirate avatar I always use) or EQ2Alyza (has she even noticed I made her global moderator?).
Yes, I noticed. Thought it was an accident at first, but hasn't changed in awhile soooo lol
-
Yeah, I was thinking about asking you if you were interested because I felt it would be helpful to have another moderator who's actually active and you seemed like the best candidate, but then I decided it would be funnier to just do it and see if you'd notice :P
-
It seems that they will use the UT4 engine.
-
It seems that they will use the UT4 engine.
source?
-
I suppose it's a guess based on that :
http://www.novacrystallis.com/2015/08/gc-2015-final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-run-on-luminous-engine/
-
It seems that they will use the UT4 engine.
I've seen this... now I know Luminous is being used on FF XV... But seriously, why did they even waste time with Agni's Philosophy if you aren't going to do anything with the engine you were showing off..........
Square is so damn frustrating.
-
I really don't know very much about game development but isn't part of the reason why other companies can create 2-3 games in the time it takes Square to make one game is because a lot of other developers aren't trying to create an entirely new engine with every entry? So the use of UT4 engine could be an attempt to speed up game development, especially if they are having some issues with Luminous. From what I read about FFXV's development, it is being created during the time in which Luminous is being expanded and optimized. I assume Square Enix wants to start on all of these other projects, but does not want to wait for Luminous and FFXV to be finished.
Also, the focus on the capabilities of Luminous engine, as shown in the highly detailed and technically impressive Agni's Philosophy demos are probably more for investors IMO. As impressive as those demos may be, I wonder how difficult Luminous is to work with, or how close to completion most of its features are. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see any potential FFXV sequels or FF Type series games being made with the Luminous engine later on once its finished, but in the meantime I think Square Enix must think that UT4 is adequate and will allow them to be more timely and cost efficient.
That being said, I hope UT4 does not come with any shortcomings in quality. The FFXIII games, as sub-par as I felt they were, I thought were very polished and technically gorgeous. The Crystal Tools engine seemed to be of a much higher quality than UT3. A lot of games last generation made with UT3 had framerate issues, washed out colors, texture pop-in, and were very glitchy. I don't know how much of that is the engine's fault or the studios who made those games because of a lack of QA testing, but there is a correlation there nonetheless.
If the UT engines are cheaper alternatives to creating your own engines, than another variable that could stand in the way of preconceived notion of UT engine leading to lower quality games might just be that studios who look to save money by using the engine simply don't have Square Enix's budget for their games.
At this point I am talking in circles with myself, but although the news isn't great I'm not getting too worked up over it yet. But my previous experience with games made with UT seem to have only been great in spite of UT, not because of it.
-
I guess they use the UT4 engine for two reasons: It is a very powerful engine which is ready to use and it is designed for crossplatforming. SE would be stupid to only develop it on PS4. But the 'play it first on PS4' means that they aren't.
The good thing is that it makes it easier to mod the game (if they release it on PC).
-
I don't think they have completely dumped the Luminous engine for future games but as I see it is that it is developed simultaneously with FFXV and they had plans to use it as an editor but it turned out to be really complicated to be a game making engine yet since it's not even finished yet.
I think they don't want to repeat the same mistake with developing time for KH3 and FF7R since it's not finished and those are in development right. Saving time and making the games with working and finished tools is a wise thing from SE to do.
-
.
-
SE not using the Luminous engine is pretty good news in my opinion, not only for the obvious practical reasons, but for the fact that this probably means the game will truly be its own experience, not just FF15 with a pretty FF7 dress slapped on top of it, which was one of my original worries.
With the costs invested in Luminous, and the costs of producing next gen graphics for large games like FF7, cutting corners will be a constant element of game-development, and one of the easiest ways for them to save money and resources would be to simply use most of the tech and resources they've already developed for 15 with minor edits, instead of designing everything over from scratch.
If they're going for another engine, that probably means they'll have no other choice than to take the harder route, and we're looking at a much broader possibility for the game being drastically different from the other FF games they have produced the last 5 years.
That's a good thing IMO.
One worry that I still have though, in light of the trailer, and in light of development costs, time frame, etc. is that this isn't going to be a conventional remake at all.
The trailer clearly shows a time-skip with two widely different conceptions of Midgard. Add that together with the monologue, and I'm starting to think the game might actually be set post-FF7with the events of FF7 being retold as flash-backs much like the way the Nibelheim incident was told in Calm in the original.
If they opt for such a format, they can save tons of resources and time, because they'll have a really good excuse not to make the world-map (or an 1:1 scale open world equivalent), add the mini-games, or locations not needed to tell the essentials of the original plot.
They could literally have the entire game based in a future Midgard hub-city, have the cast meet up in Tifa's bar or something, and then present just the choice moments of the original story in a chapter-by-chapter based fashion, and eliminate any "dead weight" along the way, such as exploration, chocobo breeding/racing, Kondor and the RTS stuff there, most of the natural "dungeons"(caves, mountain roads etc.), running through the snow and climbing North Crater etc.
I'm not saying I would like them to do this (I definitely wouldn't), but it actually seems really likely at this point granted the trailer, granted the likely release dates (an official Sony advert in Edge Magazine has the game listed as "TBA 2016"), granted production costs and the scope of the original game, and granted that they're apparently doing it from scratch on something other than Luminous.
It's also a great design choice if they wish to also incorporate the scenes and stories from the compilation, or even worse, add them
as DLC. When the narrator(s) is/are done telling us about FF7, he/she/they could, by a prompt, then proceed to tell us about the events of Advent Children, or Crisis Core, or whatever else.
I hope for god's sake they don't go this route, but I have a really bad feeling that this is what we'll end up seeing.
More pwixels and edited colouring I wouldn't call that modding :p but yeah games like this at current gen need no modding at all, I know I wouldn't bother
*Looks at the FF13 PC port, every single current gen Ubisoft PC title, The Witcher series and a bunch of other titles*
No, modern games need modding just as much as ever, if not more than a decade or two ago - because developers keep pushing out bad and unfinished products to meet unrealistic dead-lines at more and more alarming frequencies.
Modding is not just limited to the kind of up-grades you see here at Qhimm, dealing with attempts to increase visual and audio fidelity, but also bug-fixing, re-balancing and other system-related edits.
-
...
One worry that I still have though, in light of the trailer, and in light of development costs, time frame, etc. is that this isn't going to be a conventional remake at all.
The trailer clearly shows a time-skip with two widely different conceptions of Midgard. Add that together with the monologue, and I'm starting to think the game might actually be set post-FF7with the events of FF7 being retold as flash-backs much like the way the Nibelheim incident was told in Calm in the original.
If they opt for such a format, they can save tons of resources and time, because they'll have a really good excuse not to make the world-map (or an 1:1 scale open world equivalent), add the mini-games, or locations not needed to tell the essentials of the original plot.
They could literally have the entire game based in a future Midgard hub-city, have the cast meet up in Tifa's bar or something, and then present just the choice moments of the original story in a chapter-by-chapter based fashion, and eliminate any "dead weight" along the way, such as exploration, chocobo breeding/racing, Kondor and the RTS stuff there, most of the natural "dungeons"(caves, mountain roads etc.), running through the snow and climbing North Crater etc.
I'm not saying I would like them to do this (I definitely wouldn't), but it actually seems really likely at this point granted the trailer, granted the likely release dates (an official Sony advert in Edge Magazine has the game listed as "TBA 2016"), granted production costs and the scope of the original game, and granted that they're apparently doing it from scratch on something other than Luminous.
It's also a great design choice if they wish to also incorporate the scenes and stories from the compilation, or even worse, add them
as DLC. When the narrator(s) is/are done telling us about FF7, he/she/they could, by a prompt, then proceed to tell us about the events of Advent Children, or Crisis Core, or whatever else.
I hope for god's sake they don't go this route, but I have a really bad feeling that this is what we'll end up seeing.
...
Are there more trailers? I tried a lazy google attempt but didn't find any. The trailer we got is too vague to be conclusive on this matter, but if it is true then it adds a +1 in my "why I dread a remake" subconsciousness.
EDIT: Basically this would be more like an Advent Children 2 then.
-
Are there more trailers? I tried a lazy google attempt but didn't find any. The trailer we got is too vague to be conclusive on this matter, but if it is true then it adds a +1 in my "why I dread a remake" subconsciousness.
No, it's just the one trailer, but I think the trailer is pretty clear if you know what to look for - of course, this assumes that the trailer is representative of what the game will look like, and is not simply a custom made promo trailer that's completely tailored for the announcement and nothing else - which may or may not be the case given SE's propensity for trolling its fans.
But, let me break it down anyways -
1. The video clearly contains two very different conceptions of Midgard.
Several of the first shots of Midgard in daytime shows no signs of the plate.
The buildings are architecturally speaking vastly different from the original Midgard, but also vastly different from the later shots of Midgard in the same trailer. The skyscrapers seen in the day-time shot, are shown to reach all the way down to ground level in the evening shot over the playground.
The day-time Midgard literally makes no sense with the architecture and design of the original Migard - yet, the later night-time shots shows a Midgard that is almost shot-by-shot true to the original, although most people didn't notice it seems.
Let's take a closer look though -
The night-time shots begin, and you then have a scene that clearly shows the slum under the plate, near the foot of the support-structure holding it up.
(http://i.imgur.com/1BBupE2.png)
The place I outline is clearly one of the support beams of the plate, maybe even the very place where Cloud and Co fights Reno for the first time.
The shot at about 0.50 seconds in, clearly shows the old Midgard in a panorama view - it's the Shinra HQ - Just compare these two shots for reference.
(http://i.imgur.com/uhcqMmy.png)
(http://odysseedupixel.fr/wp-content/uploads/Final%20Fantasy%20VII-Midgard.jpg)
In the night-time shots, there are no signs of the modern skyscrapers reaching down to the ground level, not among the buildings in the sectors,
nor surrounding the Shinra building. The night-time Midgard is clearly the original Midgard - the daytime shots are clearly not.
For reference
(http://i.imgur.com/LmDspUI.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/5z341rA.png)
If these scenes were supposed to be in the same Midgard as the one being shows in the night-time scenes, then these building, or ones similar to them, should be visible in the shot of the Shinra Building, since the Shinra building is atop the plate, as these would have to be too, seeing as we can see the Sky above them.
Yet in the shot of the Shinra building, at 0.50, the building atop the plate, are decidedly in tune with the architecture of the building atop the plate from the original game, with no signs of modern glass and steel Skyscrapers or anything even remotely similar.
These two Midgards are not the same. That much, I would say, is patently obvious. I might be wrong, but it seems more likely I am right.
2. The trailer shows two different trains - The first one, a modern train similar to the ones you find circling Tokyo, with an information map referencing (South) Edge, a town that didn't exist in the original game, nor makes sense with the lore considering that the places in the original Midgard no longer had names, and were referred to only as "sectors".
The second one, you see in the background of the playground, is the original train from the intro of FF7 (yeah).
This latter train, as you all probably remember, ran from the bottom of the plate to the top of it, running by the reactors. There is literally no reason why you'd have both at the same time.
Add this two points together, and then add in the point about production time, costs, and the convenient way in which it will allow Nomura to tell pretty much the entire story, and even include the compilation with relative ease, I think it's a pretty decent theory.
EDIT: Basically this would be more like an Advent Children 2 then.
Yep...
-
Sounds like it could be true. I did scratch my head when I saw those skyscrapers, thinking where it could possibly be. I haven't done any theory crafting on it, just assumed a stylistic change. But, then again, those skyscrapers, as I see it, have to be in proximity to Shinra HQ (if not a new city?). They're clearly not there in the night time shots. What else to believe than post-meteor Midgard?
Regarding post-meteor Midgard: Given the FF7 ending, I always assumed humanity did not survive (returned to the planet if you will). Now AC clearly debunked that. Still, I kinda think that was one of the possible interpretations the original authors wanted.
-
Sounds like it could be true. I did scratch my head when I saw those skyscrapers, thinking where it could possibly be. I haven't done any theory crafting on it, just assumed a stylistic change. But, then again, those skyscrapers, as I see it, have to be in proximity to Shinra HQ (if not a new city?). They're clearly not there in the night time shots. What else to believe than post-meteor Midgard?
To be fair, there are at least two common criticisms of this theory, both found in the trailer analysis article on thelifestream.net
I don't find either of them particularly convincing though.
The first one tries to make the argument that because the daytime shots clearly show Mako pipelines it can't be set in the future, because
the reactors were no longer active after the events of the original.
This is nonsensical though, since even after the fall of the meteor, it would still require less job and be more sensible to work around the original
architecture, rather than dismantle everything that no longer worked after that event. The pipelines are huge, as are the reactors, so it would take a very long time before all traces of the original infrastructure would be entirely gone. And this doesn't even go into the possibility of the pipe-lines being used for other types of energy, like gass, oil, or as a protective structure covering electrical cables.
The second criticism is about the train and the reference to Edge. It rightfully points out that the first train-station of the original game was named "North Edge Station", but the sign with the name wasn't readable due to low resolutions in the original PSX version.
I still think this is a stretch because
A.) it conflicts with the narrative, and where the art and the narrative conflicts, I think the narrative takes precedence - besides it's perfectly
possible that this detail was a remnant of a design choice that was made before the plot of the game was entirely finalized, but simply
not edited or removed because nobody could make it out in the original anyway.
B.) Since the trailer is entirely pre-rendered, everything about it is carefully planned. No scene in this trailer is there by accident.
While a discrepancy like the station name in the original and it's conflict with Jessie's (or was it Barret's?) statement about the towns
no longer having names (and all the other stations being referred to simply by reference to their specific place and sector) in the game is
understandable because games are made by large teams in often very organic ways, a completely pre-rendered cinematic trailer for a grand
reveal at a conference is not.
If the trailer dwells purposefully on the name "South Edge", that is to give the viewer a specific hint - not just some inconsequential piece of
random information referring to some random Reactor train-station.
The train criticism makes even less sense when you consider that in the original, the train that went to "North Edge"(and therefore also presumably "South Edge") was the train you see later in the trailer passing the park, not the modern one you see in the beginning of the trailer.
Regarding post-meteor Midgard: Given the FF7 ending, I always assumed humanity did not survive (returned to the planet if you will). Now AC clearly debunked that. Still, I kinda think that was one of the possible interpretations the original authors wanted.
I always took the ending to mean, not necessarily that humanity didn't survive, but that they abandoned Midgard - which would make perfect sense.
Midgard was a huge metropolis built and designed specifically to function through the use of the Mako reactors. The entire infrastructure of
the city is founded on, and dependent on the Mako Reactors.
Once Mako stops flowing the entire city breaks down, and when you consider the infrastructure and the building density of Midgard, there simply is no feasible way to power the city anymore (unless you could replace each Mako Reactor with a Nuclear Reactor or something to that effect).
This literally means that after the fall of the meteor, Midgard would be a huge, immobile, powerless and lifeless piece of metal.
The logical thing to do for everyone at that point, would be to migrate back to the country-side, to towns such as Calm or Nibelheim etc. not waste time trying to live in a place where nothing grows at the moment, in houses in a city covered by pollution that has no electricity, and by extension, probably no running water.
AC/DoC shat all over the logic of the ending of FF7. That's one of the big reason I hated the movie and that game. No, people did not stick around in Midgard. It doesn't make sense, and it completely ruins the sense of the scene with Nanaki and his kids.
I mean, how many hundred years in the future would that have to be, if the events of AC/DoC are to be canon?
Although I'm pretty much out of hope for the remake now, I just wished they'd sink the compilation material to the bottom of the sea, ignore it
and remake the game by sticking as close to the original story as possible. I just don't see that happening anymore.
-
Wishful thinking:
Maybe the daylight shots are from the ending, after meteor, in a new, re-built Midgard.
I don't like to speculate like this, but I kinda agree with you. Post-meteor Midgar makes most sense.
I always took the ending to mean, not necessarily that humanity didn't survive, but that they abandoned Midgard - which would make perfect sense.
This too I had in mind. To be fair, people staying in Midgard kinda is in character, and stays "true" to what Cloud said on the train in the beginning of the game. Thats why I favored the "everyone is dead" ending. But, shrug... The important thing, imo, was that the ending was open for interpretation. I like that kind of shit.
Although I'm pretty much out of hope for the remake now, I just wished they'd sink the compilation material to the bottom of the sea, ignore it
and remake the game by sticking as close to the original story as possible. I just don't see that happening anymore.
A reboot/reimagining of FF7 is what I hope for. Not a continuation of the trainwreck FF7 expanded universe. I saw a video on youtube just some hours ago ("top 5 I want to see in FF7R" or something like that) where the guy talking wanted the CC characters in the remake... The horror... I have also seen this in other channels/forums/etc. "I hope they bring X character in", "I hope they continue into the AC story"... Now, I don't mind new characters/storyline as long as it's done good (whatever that is lol). Most of the expanded universe characters though have a certain fecapalm-otaku appeal value to them that I'm sick of. Does that make sense?
Some things to fix from the top of my head:
Cait Sith. Dat effin bastard. I wouldn't mind it that much if IT actually died in the temple of the Ancients, and did not return. Ever. Reeve could get other means to communicate with Cloud & co.
Many cut-scenes after Midgard could use some more meat. At certain points in the game the cutscene vs gameplay ratio is a bit off imo.
Yuffie's side story feels like fanservice. The turks and the don is too conveniently there. Not terrible by any means, but could also be done a lot better.
If only I had control over the remake :evil:
-
I actually had an idea around how to influence Square Enix to make the remake in the way the fans would want them to.
The basic idea is a "pledge" website where fans pool their money to voice their opinions and pledge their money to SE if they design the remake according to their desires. For most practical purposes, the fan's money is not just a donation to SE, it's basically used to buy the game. The website is owned by an organization that acts as mediator between the fans and SE. If SE makes the game according to how the fans want it, they get the money (and the fans get the FF7R game), otherwise the fans get their money back, and possibly pledge not to buy the game or give SE any money.
Actually it's more complex than this; fans can divide their money according to different features, instead of all-or-nothing; SE might have an agreement with the mediating company to give fans a discount on the game; there needs to be specific criteria to determine if the fans got what they wanted; and lots of other logistical challenges. But, this could radically change the way remakes are done, in general, for all art forms (games, movies, etc.).
A couple of other problems I see with this are: (1) the remaker has more incentive to satisfy as many fans as possible to get the most money, which might actually not be a good thing, but then again they can always choose to design for a smaller crowd and be more special that way; (2) people with more money will have more influence, which isn't necessarily fair, although the fans will tend to be older and make more money, so this tends to be biased towards older fans, which is a good thing, for the older fans. (3) the fan's pledges and opinions need to be collected very early during development, early enough to actually be able to influence how SE makes the game. (4) Lots of other logistical challenges like this...
Anyway... Anyone wanna help me build this company and website? ;) there's lots of other cool ideas related to this, like a system that's smart and continually learns about which different aspects of the game fans are interested in, etc.
-
Wishful thinking:
Maybe the daylight shots are from the ending, after meteor, in a new, re-built Midgard.
I don't like to speculate like this, but I kinda agree with you. Post-meteor Midgar makes most sense.
Yeah. It's just kinda sad that a rebuilt post-Midgard makes little to no sense with the original narrative - not only due to practical concerns,
and the Nanaki scene at the end of the original game, but because even if it were to happen it would not happen while the cast
was still young, or perhaps even alive. Rebuilding the wreck of Midgard without proper power, after the impact of the meteor would take decades at least.
A reboot/reimagining of FF7 is what I hope for. Not a continuation of the trainwreck FF7 expanded universe. I saw a video on youtube just some hours ago ("top 5 I want to see in FF7R" or something like that) where the guy talking wanted the CC characters in the remake... The horror... I have also seen this in other channels/forums/etc. "I hope they bring X character in", "I hope they continue into the AC story"... Now, I don't mind new characters/storyline as long as it's done good (whatever that is lol). Most of the expanded universe characters though have a certain fecapalm-otaku appeal value to them that I'm sick of. Does that make sense?
I think you makee perfect sense. The extended universe products were all made without the same team as the original game, and they were
made much the same way as fan-fiction - not with regards for what would make sense with the original narrative, but with the intent of satisfying delirious fan expectations and desires. It's essentially glorified fan-fiction rendered into canon by having the label attached to it.
Non of the spin-off products make sense in and of themselves. They butchered the art-style of the original, and the added multiple new and needless layers of contrived BS and plot-holes.
The correct way to address that in a remake is obviously not to go way out of your way to force these products to make sense together,
which will invariably necessitate more contrived and ridiculous plot-bending, but to ditch them all together and treat the remake as an entirely new and stand-alone product. Tie-ins make even less sense from a marketing perspective, since a lot of the new potential players of the remake won't have played the spin-offs and therefore won't understand and get confused by the tie-ins unless they are self-contained and self-explanatory - which they probably won't be given time and resource limitations.
Some things to fix from the top of my head:
Cait Sith. Dat effin bastard. I wouldn't mind it that much if IT actually died in the temple of the Ancients, and did not return. Ever. Reeve could get other means to communicate with Cloud & co.
Many cut-scenes after Midgard could use some more meat. At certain points in the game the cutscene vs gameplay ratio is a bit off imo.
Yuffie's side story feels like fanservice. The turks and the don is too conveniently there. Not terrible by any means, but could also be done a lot better.
If only I had control over the remake :evil:
There's a lot of stuff you could "fix" in FF7, but non of it necessary in a sense - and all of it a potential disaster.
Enter anti-SE rant-mode -
People seem to forget that FF7 was essentially a silly 90's anime game.
Half of the plot was absurd - such as the entire Shinra HQ infiltration, which is hilariously weird. Or Cloud and Co sneaking across the ocean in the Shinra Boat, where the crew ended up being massacred by Jenova, yet walking off the boat all casual-like with no consequences what so ever.
Or Rufus going out of his way to commandeer the Tiny Bronco, a tiny, personal air-craft that serves no purpose to Rufus what so ever that can't be covered by the fleet of cargo helicopters stationed at Junon, or an Airship.
Point is that, most of the time, nobody cared about these scenes, or even noticed how absurd they were - because guess what? The entire game is pretty far out there, and you're invited to relish in the camp and the sheer joy of the experience rather than waste time nit-picking details pertaining to universe-logic etc. which essentially bear no real impact on the important notes of the plot to begin with (which would be Cloud's existential journey, and the themes dealing with loss and human's relationship with the planet).
It's an ephemeral and visceral experience, more so than a realistic, and logical one.
It's a story portrayed in glorious "I'm high on LSD"-like graphics with unnatural and impossible architecture, super-saturated color-palette, with weird and nonsensical characters fighting weird and nonsensical enemies (like a house morphing into a killer robot, or a giant revolver firing rockets). FF7 did not give to fvcks about anything or anyone. It was a trip, and it was a trippy one at that.
The compilation, and the remake (judging by the art-style) is fundamentally incongruent with the original, and that's why they all end up feeling really, really weird and bad. The style and narrative of FF7 was never intended to make sense in the way that we demand realistic/semi-realistically styled media to be.
It essentially flew under the radar in the same way that children's cartoons, and fairy-tales do. Remove that, and then suddenly all the absurdities became readily apparent and jarring as hell.
The more you try to make sense of it, the more contrived and corny it becomes, which is why all the spin-offs (and most likely the remake) end up feeling stupid, contrived and melodramatic.
FF7 is not, and never will be realistic, nor a logically coherent game. Trying to make it into such, instead of simply embracing the fact that it isn't and running with it, invites more and more issues down the road in production.
This is another reason I am so apprehensive of the remake - I don't think Nomura, Nojima and Kitase get this anymore. In fact, I think this ephemeral, fairy-tale quality to FF games was solely the result of the creative out-put of Sakagachi, because you still see it present in his post-Squaresoft games, yet non of it in SE FF games.
Nomura, Kitase, Nojima and the rest of the major FF creators in SE, have their heads too far up their own narcissistic asses to see that the stuff they design just reeks of bad fan-fiction.
The stuff they now design, is the game-development and artistic equivalence of the user-names that early teens pick for their characters in their first MMOs because they think it's "kewl" (XxOneWingedUchihaSasukexX etc. and similar manure).
Camp and childish fairy-tale elements was the saving grace of FF, and it always has been - because it's still a fact that most people who write and do creative design for games are immature and amateurish in the grander scheme of writing, musical composition, and visual design.
Accept that fact and embracing it leads to quality camp which is good in its own right. Not accepting and embracing that leads to pretentious post-Matrix BS.
No Nojima, you are no Shakespear, and no Nomura, you are no Leonardo Da Vinci and no everyone, FF7 is not the video-game equivalence of Citizen Kane.
If anything, FF7 is the video-game equivalence of the original Star Wars, and the reason the spin-offs suck are the same the reasons the Star Wars prequels suck in comparison to the original trilogy.
Rant over.
Seriously though - If I had creative control over this game, the first thing I'd do is have the entire game stylized using a cell-shaded graphical solution keeping 100% true to the style of the original, finished cast drawings. Then I'd throw all the compilation stuff in the garbage.
By doing that, I'd literally solve pretty much every stylistic and plot-related problem that could ever possibly manifest itself from the very get-go.
Seriously though - fvck you SE for going with that quasi photo-realistic style which will inevitably lead to you butchering most of the memorable moments and scenes of the game in favor of post mid-2000's melodramatic and cringe-worthy cinematography and writing.
GG.
I actually had an idea around how to influence Square Enix to make the remake in the way the fans would want them to.
The basic idea is a "pledge" website where fans pool their money to voice their opinions and pledge their money to SE if they design the remake according to their desires. For most practical purposes, the fan's money is not just a donation to SE, it's basically used to buy the game. The website is owned by an organization that acts as mediator between the fans and SE. If SE makes the game according to how the fans want it, they get the money (and the fans get the FF7R game), otherwise the fans get their money back, and possibly pledge not to buy the game or give SE any money.
Actually it's more complex than this; fans can divide their money according to different features, instead of all-or-nothing; SE might have an agreement with the mediating company to give fans a discount on the game; there needs to be specific criteria to determine if the fans got what they wanted; and lots of other logistical challenges. But, this could radically change the way remakes are done, in general, for all art forms (games, movies, etc.).
A couple of other problems I see with this are: (1) the remaker has more incentive to satisfy as many fans as possible to get the most money, which might actually not be a good thing, but then again they can always choose to design for a smaller crowd and be more special that way; (2) people with more money will have more influence, which isn't necessarily fair, although the fans will tend to be older and make more money, so this tends to be biased towards older fans, which is a good thing, for the older fans. (3) the fan's pledges and opinions need to be collected very early during development, early enough to actually be able to influence how SE makes the game. (4) Lots of other logistical challenges like this...
Anyway... Anyone wanna help me build this company and website? ;) there's lots of other cool ideas related to this, like a system that's smart and continually learns about which different aspects of the game fans are interested in, etc.
That's probably not going to work. Firstly, you'd have to convince SE to play on board with this, and that's just not going to happen for more reasons than I care to elaborate on here.
Secondly, the majority of the people who'll end up buying this game, won't be original fans - certainly not purist fans of the original title.
SE will not change game-play- or story-design choices based on a small, albeit paying group of people when they have a marketing and research department telling them what design-choices the ought to go with to appeal to a wider audience to begin with.
Your idea assumes that the group of people who happen to stumble across your site, and make pledges on it will be a significant and representative enough group for it to be a group worth listening to - and that assumption is very difficult to justify, especially
in relation to a game like a complete HD remake of FF7.
The production costs of such a game is going to demand Call of Duty/GTA/Witcher level sales in order to justify its production at all.
How ever do you plan to make it so that the people drawn to your site will represent the advocates for changes that will steer the game in the direction of attaining such sales?
What makes you think SE will trust the opinions of these people on your site, more so than their own research department?
-
You're exactly right, it would need to be a substantially large number of people. But if such a large number of people did participate, why would SE not listen? What if we had more pledges than Amazon had pre-orders?
Also I think you might be underestimating the size of the original fan base. And the people most likely to have strong opinions will be the fans that played the original.
Also there is a third option. If option 1 is SE makes it for the new generation, and option 2 is SE makes it for the original fan generation, and if option 2 seems hopeless, then option 3 is that SE designs it such that you can do either/both, e.g. active vs. turn based.
If nothing else, at least it's an extra data point for SE's R&D, and the fans can at least say they tried.
But you're right, it would need to basically be huge to make a difference. It would be not just collecting a few pledges, but more like trying to represent the majority of the original fan base.
-
By the way, you're dead on target with your anti SE rant above. I wouldn't actually call it a rant. Most of it seemed to be simply about how the style of the original FF7 (cartoony, campy, silly) just would not work in a "realistic" style game.
To add on top of that, I would say that no matter how SE made the remake, even if it was EXACTLY how YOU (anyone here reading this) wanted it, it would still not have the same impact as the original. You can't repeat a "first time experience". There's no element of surprise.
That's why I'm actually in favor of a complete remake. I can play the original any time I want. I can use mods to improve the graphics and such. Given the choice between two nearly identical FF7's, vs having the original AND a remake, I say go with the latter. At least we'll have the opportunity to experience something new and fresh. And it will be really cool to see how they design the game mechanics and such.
One last thought. Should the oldest, most hard core fans always get their way? If you take this idea to the extreme, we shouldn't play any console games at all. We should go back to text based adventure games like Zork. (Which I loved, by the way!)
-
To add on top of that, I would say that no matter how SE made the remake, even if it was EXACTLY how YOU (anyone here reading this) wanted it, it would still not have the same impact as the original. You can't repeat a "first time experience". There's no element of surprise.
Speaking of rants, I guess I'll join with one now (warning, my first attempt at editing this post before submitting it seems that my fatigue has gotten the better of me, and I'm currently correcting random errors everywhere):
I'm not so sure it's necessary to put so much stock in the "first time experience". Speaking from my personal opinion, I have had times where my first experience with something was not pleasant. Be it food, media, or an activity (loss of virginity comes to mind due to my immature sense of humor), there are many experiences that are not at first pleasant, and instead of becoming even worse with repeated exposures, actually became more pleasant over time.
For me and FF7 specifically, my first experience was wonderful, but I was young and did not remember all of it or understand all of it clearly. My subsequent revisits to the game have only convinced me of its quality and inherent value despite the flaws I can easily spot with the wisdom I've acquired with age. With as many things I critique about the game, I also find aspects that I appreciate, and it is in my opinion that my opinion will not worsen.
I have found that for these reasons, spoilers have little effect on me. I used to be worried when people talk about something that I have not watched, but I found that media that I find to be of quality and value still retain it even though I may not be surprised. As long as the surprises make sense, are consistent with the rest of the story, or are interesting in some facet, I still have appreciation for them despite knowing they are coming. In fact, my brother told me that Aerith gets killed by Sephiroth before I reached that part of the game, and not being able to stop it even knowing that it was coming only deepened my connection to Cloud in feeling that I was helpless in stopping it.
All in all, I feel that surprise and "first time experience" are shallow and possibly irrelevant considerations in evaluating one's own enjoyment from something. Surprise to me, is just the phenomena of experiencing something unexpected, which in itself is just experiencing something new. Everything is new to someone and will not be after it is experienced and therefore I do not think it is worth talking about. Some people may seek surprise and consider it a valuable part of an experience, but I personally do not./ End rant
I think when it comes to campy vs. realistic and all that, the most important thing to preserving immersion to me is consistency. The weird aspects of FF7 work because they happen consistently throughout the story, and feel like they are apart of the world and the story no matter how absurd they would be in real life. Where realism interferes is that if they eliminate all of these moments save for a few iconic ones, it will be jarring with the rest of the story. I don't think the graphics or the art-style really have much to do with it, as long as it is consistent. A super realistic design choice that is consistently weird and abstract would be an interesting contrast and by no means bad (Metal Gear Solid comes to mind). But if FF7 is suddenly Ghost Recon (assuming it is realistic, I've never played it), but suddenly still has a moment or two of Cloud crossdressing or Scottish Cat Toys talking and nothing else, it will seem like the game has no identity or is keeping them simply to please fans. If FF7 wants to be super gritty and realistic, but also be weird, it needs to be both from start to finish. Any prolonged seriousness will cause the game to seem conflicted in its direction rather that consistent and yet contrasting.
@hian: I sincerely hope your theory is incorrect, as that would, for me, be the absolute worst case scenario and the biggest possible stretch of the term "remake". Aside from an occasional easter egg, any compilation material is completely unwarranted and unwanted. As you have stated, anything that cannot be internally explained and resolved within the game itself would only be a detriment to the goal of attracting new fans, and obviously does nothing to please old fans. The structure of narrative, and the ability to experience it without the restrictions of flashbacks are absolutely crucial to preserving any "magic" from the original game, and I'm not sure if anyone could really be foolish enough to not see that.
-
@picklejar
Very hard to pull off. Not only do you need a vast amount of people (in the houndreds of thousands?), but those people have to agree on most of the things and contribute A LOT of money to actually make it not profitable for SE not to listen. I'm not saying it is impossible. They way I'm guessing SE makes their hard choices gravitates around pleasing the shareholders, investors, etc. The passionate and talented developers always have to sacrifice their talent to some degree here.
In other words: SE's top have to show that they have to listen to this website to their investors, shareholders, etc., in order for the top brass to give their blessing to the developers. And I bet that takes A LOT of £$¥€ to get their attention.
-
SquareEnix hasn't ever listened to fans, with the possible exception of FF14 (and that's only because it was initially a disaster). They don't need fanbase anymore for sales. I don't see that changing with ff7r. Leopards don't change their spots. In fact, they now deliberate cater to the masses, which is why I have no faith that the remake will be any good or stick to what made FF7 great in the first place.
Hian has summed up the biggest issue with using photorealistic graphics with the original story. It works with the old style absolutely, but a lot of FF7 will not work with realistic graphics. I would disagree with him that FF7 was not well written, it certainly was (unrealistic scenarios, like cross dressing, in a game are sometimes the price you pay for having a fun game). It had the right balance between gameplay and story, and it made a lot of effort to portray scenes so that you could suspend disbelief to them. Something only a good fiction would do - and something AC and the spin-offs failed miserably at.
Also, photorealistic graphics only work if you're writing realistic scenes for them. AC didn't do that. In fact, FF7 never had anything as absurd as character's flying around in cutscenes being slammed into walls at 100mph completely uninjured. Realistic graphics work with realistic writing - something Nomura and co don't seem to grasp. FF7r will likely have tons of AC style fights and physics-defying logic.
Let's take the scene where Sephiroth slashes Zax. I can imagine today that the scene will be 5 minutes long and have an "epic" battle between the two before that happens. Urgh.
-
@StickySock: Very good point about overvaluing the element of surprise. In fact, one of the ways that I know I like FF7 so much is the fact that I've re-played it more than any other game (in that generation, at least). Also, interesting idea of having photorealistic and campy/cheesy at the same time, as long as it's consistent,it would work. The Scott Pilgrim movie comes to mind for some reason, even though that's not an apples to apples comparison.
@others:
Regarding getting Square's attention, the replies here are correct. It will take more than a website. A better strategy would probably be trying to create an organization of hardcore fans that becomes a media sensation and creates drama in the news, which would cause more people to ask Square what they feel about it. Or something.
Even if the fan org never convinced Square to change anything, it would be interesting to see such an organization meet regularly and discuss features on a large scale. Like a "convention". And to see how many fans care about which features, etc., in a report format on the web, continually updated.
Getting all fans to agree on everything is impossible, but I wasn't thinking about having the fans design the whole game, just trying to influence Square on various aspects, be it few or many, and/or (again, "option 3") make it modular/configurable so it can please both crowds (e.g. active vs. turn based battle).
-
You're exactly right, it would need to be a substantially large number of people. But if such a large number of people did participate, why would SE not listen? What if we had more pledges than Amazon had pre-orders?
Also I think you might be underestimating the size of the original fan base. And the people most likely to have strong opinions will be the fans that played the original.
Also there is a third option. If option 1 is SE makes it for the new generation, and option 2 is SE makes it for the original fan generation, and if option 2 seems hopeless, then option 3 is that SE designs it such that you can do either/both, e.g. active vs. turn based.
If nothing else, at least it's an extra data point for SE's R&D, and the fans can at least say they tried.
But you're right, it would need to basically be huge to make a difference. It would be not just collecting a few pledges, but more like trying to represent the majority of the original fan base.
I am not saying it couldn't be done. I am simply saying that FF7R will be aiming for multi-million numbers of sales - the original fanbase - that is to say everyone who played the original when it was first released, not as a result of being brought on the band-wagon by spin-offs like Advent Children etc. (most of which enjoy those spin-offs more so than the original), are most likely not many enough to create the kind of social capital that could pressure SE to make design changes to the game.
As for the 3rd option - I don't see that as feasible. You might be able to create a dualistic battle system (like Dissidia), but it entirely depends on the basics of the battle system (party control with free-movement etc. probably would not work well for a dualistic system).
There's more to the game than the battle system though. There's also the story - the cinematography etc. Having two options for everything like that simply isn't realistic.
Someone in the fan-base are going to have to bite the sour apple here. That's just a fact at this point, I am afraid. I'm hoping it won't be me, but I'm pretty sure it will.
To add on top of that, I would say that no matter how SE made the remake, even if it was EXACTLY how YOU (anyone here reading this) wanted it, it would still not have the same impact as the original. You can't repeat a "first time experience". There's no element of surprise.
This implies that what I enjoyed the most about FF7 was the first-time experience. In my case, that's simply incorrect. I've replayed the game once every 1/2 years since it's release. In my mind, it's still the game I enjoy the most out of every game I've played since it's release and it's the only game in my collection I consistently go back to play. If anything, my best memories of the game was from my second or third play-through, going back to it after completing FF8 - not the first one.
The remake doesn't need to have the same impact as the original, nor is that what I want or ask for. It simply needs to provide a new and fresh way for me to enjoy the narrative and style of the original.
That's why I'm actually in favor of a complete remake. I can play the original any time I want. I can use mods to improve the graphics and such. Given the choice between two nearly identical FF7's, vs having the original AND a remake, I say go with the latter. At least we'll have the opportunity to experience something new and fresh. And it will be really cool to see how they design the game mechanics and such.
I can get behind a completely remake, if it's good in its own right. But, as I've said before - remakes are not made for new fans, or drastic changes. People who think that are fooling themselves. After all - People with no emotional connection to the original material won't have any expectations at all - these people don't know what FF7 is suppose to be to begin with - they might as well be playing FF15, and be non the wiser.
If you're going to remake anything, it's to capture the hearts of those who enjoyed the thing you're remaking. More often than not, this means catering to those people.
If anything, the Resident Evil 1 remake is both the best example of, and proof of, what a remake is supposed to be, and what makes a remake successful. If anyone for a moment thinks that the RE1 remake would be even half as popular if it had been pushed out designed with modern survival horror conventions, akin to The Evil Within etc. they're fooling themselves as well.
One last thought. Should the oldest, most hard core fans always get their way? If you take this idea to the extreme, we shouldn't play any console games at all. We should go back to text based adventure games like Zork. (Which I loved, by the way!)
That's just absurd. If the oldest fans were asking for regression, then they wouldn't be asking for remakes to begin with.
Everybody is obviously fine with graphical improvements, game-play re-balancing, expanded side-quests, or minor design-choices to improve upon dysfunctional or buggy elements (mini-games and button-prompt events etc. could do a lot of work) - they're simply averse to changing the entire style of the original, and literally revamping the game-play entirely, turning it into some hack-n-slash cut-scene ridden action-fest.
Hian has summed up the biggest issue with using photorealistic graphics with the original story. It works with the old style absolutely, but a lot of FF7 will not work with realistic graphics. I would disagree with him that FF7 was not well written, it certainly was (unrealistic scenarios, like cross dressing, in a game are sometimes the price you pay for having a fun game). It had the right balance between gameplay and story, and it made a lot of effort to portray scenes so that you could suspend disbelief to them. Something only a good fiction would do - and something AC and the spin-offs failed miserably at.
You misunderstand me. I am not saying FF7 isn't well written. It's well-written for its time, its format, and its style. It's an amazing piece of story-telling and media.
I am simply saying that it does not compete in the same arena as a lot of other media to begin with, and that compared to what we considered "well-written" in the larger context of art history - it's a pretty simple narrative.
The same way you don't rate fairy-tales against auto-biographies, or documentaries against sci-fi movies, FF7's story is not comparable to the stories in most classic novels.
It did not aspire to be realistic, nor even necessarily all that logical or reasonable.
It did not require players to suspend their disbelief, because any notion of disbelief should have been left at the door the moment you popped the game in the disk-tray after having glanced at the screenshots on the back of the cover.
Semi-realism requires suspension of disbelief - and the more incongruent fantastical elements are with the realism, the more of a struggle the act of suspension becomes.
The same is not true of FF7 because it comes with a guy with gravity defying hair wielding a sword that is literally physically impossible to wield without having the momentum of each swing launching the wielder into orbit - It literally tells us from the get go - This game does not aspire to tell you things that makes sense in your world, so let it go already, and just enjoy the ride.
However, present the narrative of FF7 in semi photo-realism and that suddenly does not work as well anymore. The presentation shouts "this is serious business people", but the physics and the rules of the universe make no real sense, nor the motivations, actions and thoughts of many of the characters.
Seriously - Cait Sith? In "slap-stick, campy, anime FF7" I can accept that without batting an eye, the same way I can accept giant chickens in neo colors being run on race tracks, or Cloud dressing up as a women to sneak into a place he could literally just level with the earth if he wanted to granted his strength.
In moody-broody, photo-realistic FF7R? Hell no. It will look stupid and out of place. Remove it though, and what are we left with? An FF7 without a soul - another re-telling of the Nibelheim flash-back, some choice scenes from Midgard, the back-stories and relevant story-segments of characters like Barret, Vincent, Nanaki, and Cid, the death of Aerith, and the show-down in North Crator.
That's pretty much it - because the rest of the original game, and it's narrative is a roller-coaster of "teh weird", sprinkled with "teh wtf did I just smoke" that falls apart if you apply the same scrutiny to it, that you would to a Tom Clancy story, or something similar.
Nobody did though, playing the original, and neither were we supposed to. That much should be readily apparent after playing the game for less than five minutes.
This does not mean that it's badly written. It simply means that its really well-written fantasy, but really badly written realism.
-
Well, I can tolerate Cait in the original game (although I am one of the biggest opponents of Cait, since I believe the character to be the worst thing about FF7's story), but in realistic graphics, it only becomes more absurd. But Cait shouldn't have even been in the original game, let alone anything else. Cait is also the one thing I couldn't suspend disbelief to in the original game because he is not just a battle element - he's part of the story and forced on you in some big moments of the story. When it comes to Cait, I just try to pretend he doesn't exist. The character was very poorly written too, which makes it all the worse inside a game that got so much right.
If you look at AC, any writer with a brain wouldn't have included him (and the story didn't necessitate it either given that he is supposed to be a controlled robot that was no longer needed), but they did. And... well, we all know what that looked like.
-
Well, I can tolerate Cait in the original game (although I am one of the biggest opponents of Cait, since I believe the character to be the worst thing about FF7's story), but in realistic graphics, it only becomes more absurd. But Cait shouldn't have even been in the original game, let alone anything else. Cait is also the one thing I couldn't suspend disbelief to in the original game because he is not just a battle element - he's part of the story and forced on you in some big moments of the story. When it comes to Cait, I just try to pretend he doesn't exist. The character was very poorly written too, which makes it all the worse inside a game that got so much right.
If you look at AC, any writer with a brain wouldn't have included him (and the story didn't necessitate it either given that he is supposed to be a controlled robot that was no longer needed), but they did. And... well, we all know what that looked like.
I actually really liked Cait Sith in the original - because getting him was such a wtf moment, and he was literally the most bizarre character I had ever seen in media at that point. When the wtf-moment passed though, he pretty quickly fell into disuse as a character.
My main party was always Cloud, Vincent and Cid for the most part (with me swapping Vincent our for Barret in the end-game because Vincent's Limit Break is pretty much useless at the LV4. tier point).
Most of the other characters just didn't matter to me.
Still - he adds spice to the party. One of the things that make FF7 so memorable - is the cast. Look at the diversity of it compared to pretty much any other game. The body-types, the clothing, the weapons, and colors - it's literally one of the most vibrant casts in gaming history - like or hate them.
To me, from an artistic point of view, adding to that alone justifies Cait Sith being there.
But in AC? Yeah, didn't get that either. Why is Reeves screwing around with the Robot post FF7?
I thought he had better things to do. Or wait? I just the mog a robot, and the cat sentient? Wait... Whatever.
-
I think we both know why - they wanted to include all characters purely as fan service. Hell, even dead characters were back. No justification needed.
-
I think we both know why - they wanted to include all characters purely as fan service. Hell, even dead characters were back. No justification needed.
Rufus: "That time, I managed to escape..."
I was also under the impression Tseng died in FF7. After the Temple of the Ancients he isn't in the story anymore. iirc that is.
Concerning Cait -as I said earlier- I wouldn't mind him actually dying in the Temple of the Ancients. It would actually make his character better imo.
-
Zeng was alive. It was a translation error in the original English game. He's not in the story after the temple, but you learn from Scarlet that he was busted up.
-
What I'm wishing for in the remake.
1. not a remake but a sequel. Fuck having to play the same story.
2. I want to be able to play everyone. Zack, Angeal, Kadaj, Hojo, Sephiroth and anyone else already dead. Make it so that you can recruit anyone.
3. everyone's advent children outfit+ fusion sword
4. motorcycles maybe in battle as well. idk how but find a way
5. Maybe new outfits for everyone? if they suck we can always not use them.
6. I want to see Honey Bee Inn in its full ultimate glory. idc make it rated M prob will make the game better.
7. new game+ with normal, hard, and insane difficulty options.
8. turn based: honestly, I wouldn't mind if they used ffxv's battle system but leaning more towards turn based.
9. Give every American release a Japanese voice with English subtitles options.
10. lastly I hope they dont fuck up Cloud overall appearance or anyone else's for that matter. He looks pretty derp in the new dissidia game. Just make him look exactly like in the ps3 demo or advent childern movie.
-
What I'm wishing for in the remake.
1. not a remake but a sequel. fern having to play the same story.
2. I want to be able to play everyone. Zack, Angeal, Kadaj, Hojo, Sephiroth and anyone else already dead. Make it so that you can recruit anyone.
3. everyone's advent children outfit+ fusion sword
4. motorcycles maybe in battle as well. idk how but find a way
5. Maybe new outfits for everyone? if they suck we can always not use them.
6. I want to see Honey Bee Inn in its full ultimate glory. idc make it rated M prob will make the game better.
7. new game+ with normal, hard, and insane difficulty options.
8. turn based: honestly, I wouldn't mind if they used ffxv's battle system but leaning more towards turn based.
9. Give every American release a Japanese voice with English subtitles options.
10. lastly I hope they dont fern up Cloud overall appearance or anyone else's for that matter. He looks pretty derp in the new dissidia game. Just make him look exactly like in the ps3 demo or advent childern movie.
Even though I don't personally want a sequel or most of the things listed here, wouldn't it make more sense to have a remake first (especially if it was already announced as a remake)? You could easily justify a sequel using the assets of the remake for an easy cash in, and do FF7-2, FF7-3, etc. (I really hope they do not, but as long as they did an excellent job on the remake the sequels wouldn't really affect me)
-
Thinking about it, I actually don't want a straight remake.
-
What I'm wishing for in the remake.
1. not a remake but a sequel. fern having to play the same story.
2. I want to be able to play everyone. Zack, Angeal, Kadaj, Hojo, Sephiroth and anyone else already dead. Make it so that you can recruit anyone.
3. everyone's advent children outfit+ fusion sword
4. motorcycles maybe in battle as well. idk how but find a way
5. Maybe new outfits for everyone? if they suck we can always not use them.
6. I want to see Honey Bee Inn in its full ultimate glory. idc make it rated M prob will make the game better.
7. new game+ with normal, hard, and insane difficulty options.
8. turn based: honestly, I wouldn't mind if they used ffxv's battle system but leaning more towards turn based.
9. Give every American release a Japanese voice with English subtitles options.
10. lastly I hope they dont fern up Cloud overall appearance or anyone else's for that matter. He looks pretty derp in the new dissidia game. Just make him look exactly like in the ps3 demo or advent childern movie.
Sorry, but...
No buts. You know better than to speak like that. ~EQ2Alyza
-
For me it looks like sarcasm. ???
-
.
-
For me it looks like sarcasm. ???
I suspected that until I got to one of the good ideas. I've dealt with enough bad game designers that I can smell the "throw every idea I've ever had into a pot" design mistake from miles away.
-
It looked like sarcasm to me at first as well, but some of the points are written in a fairly convincing manner.
I don't get why someone wouldn't want a remake to actually be a remake. There are what, six entries in the compilation of final fantasy 7 that are sequels/prequels? The reason why there is such a demand for the remake is because it was constantly teased by those entries, and that all of those entries are of extremely low quality in the opinions of many fans. How about we get a remake first (that hopefully does justice to the original) and then all of these random requests and fan-fiction-esque wishes could easily be met with other titles? Hell, most of the requests I've read could easily be done with DLC, which I would actually be okay with because fans who wanted them could buy them and the rest of us could keep it out of our games.
-
Sorry, but...
No buts. You know better than to speak like that. ~EQ2Alyza
lol so offended.
-
lol so offended.
Assume much?
Maybe he just thought your opinion was inane. I think you'll find that most people here agree. If you were trolling that makes you an idiot and I hope to the gods someone bans your ass for purposefully walking into a thread to mess things up.
Seriously though - let's have a look -
What I'm wishing for in the remake.
1. not a remake but a sequel. fern having to play the same story.
Your wish for the remake is for it not to be a remake? That doesn't even make sense. It's incoherent.
2. I want to be able to play everyone. Zack, Angeal, Kadaj, Hojo, Sephiroth and anyone else already dead. Make it so that you can recruit anyone.
This is retarded. Angeal and Kadaj don't even appear in the original game. Sephiroth and Hojo are villains, and Zack almost irrelevant. Making them playable would be a waste of time, space and resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
3. everyone's advent children outfit+ fusion sword
I can see this as an DLC. Don't really care either way.
4. motorcycles maybe in battle as well. idk how but find a way
What does this add to the game what so ever? Again, a waste of time, space and resources better spent elsewhere.
5. Maybe new outfits for everyone? if they suck we can always not use them.
Agreed. New outfits, or visual equipment change is something that can add to the experience without detracting anything from it.
6. I want to see Honey Bee Inn in its full ultimate glory. idc make it rated M prob will make the game better.
7. new game+ with normal, hard, and insane difficulty options.
8. turn based: honestly, I wouldn't mind if they used ffxv's battle system but leaning more towards turn based.
9. Give every American release a Japanese voice with English subtitles options.
All okay by my standards. I don't see how the game would benefit from a new game pluss option, but a difficulty option
raising the base stats of enemies and perhaps their A.I could be a good way to allow people to tweak the experience
to their own preferences without screwing over the game-play.
10. lastly I hope they dont fern up Cloud overall appearance or anyone else's for that matter. He looks pretty derp in the new dissidia game. Just make him look exactly like in the ps3 demo or advent childern movie.
He looks derp in the PS3 demo and in AC as well. Non of the FF7 characters were designed to look realistic to begin with, and their
semi-/quasi-realistic counterparts in the spin-offs look out of place like no tomorrow.
The best Cloud redesign by far, if you look away from the ridiculous costume, was the Kingdom Hearts version. At least he retained most
of the style from the original.
Anyways - nobody here is offended by your opinion. The act of calling out someone for reaction to your opinion in a negative manner "offended" is a childish, dismissive and BS control-tactic. It's an asinine thing to do.
-
I didn't respond to that post because I have to believe the person is a troll for my own sanity :) There's no way I can have any hope for humanity if not.
-
Assume much?
Maybe he just thought your opinion was inane. I think you'll find that most people here agree. If you were trolling that makes you an idiot and I hope to the gods someone bans your ass for purposefully walking into a thread to mess things up.
Seriously though - let's have a look -
Your wish for the remake is for it not to be a remake? That doesn't even make sense. It's incoherent.
This is retarded. Angeal and Kadaj don't even appear in the original game. Sephiroth and Hojo are villains, and Zack almost irrelevant. Making them playable would be a waste of time, space and resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
I can see this as an DLC. Don't really care either way.
What does this add to the game what so ever? Again, a waste of time, space and resources better spent elsewhere.
Agreed. New outfits, or visual equipment change is something that can add to the experience without detracting anything from it.
All okay by my standards. I don't see how the game would benefit from a new game pluss option, but a difficulty option
raising the base stats of enemies and perhaps their A.I could be a good way to allow people to tweak the experience
to their own preferences without screwing over the game-play.
He looks derp in the PS3 demo and in AC as well. Non of the FF7 characters were designed to look realistic to begin with, and their
semi-/quasi-realistic counterparts in the spin-offs look out of place like no tomorrow.
The best Cloud redesign by far, if you look away from the ridiculous costume, was the Kingdom Hearts version. At least he retained most
of the style from the original.
Anyways - nobody here is offended by your opinion. The act of calling out someone for reaction to your opinion in a negative manner "offended" is a childish, dismissive and BS control-tactic. It's an asinine thing to do.
Nope, don't do that again. ~EQ2Alyza
-
Nope, don't do that again. ~EQ2Alyza
Seriously?
I don't think this post requires much commentary on my part.
-
Seriously?
I don't think this post requires much commentary on my part.
I don't know, it seems like a rational and well reasoned response which furthers the discussion. :P
The best part is that your response was certainly not the most offensive seen here.
-
It's time a reminder be given:
RULES
This is the rules page. I welcome all of our older members and new members to read over these and familiarize yourself with them. All users (even brand new ones) are expected to know and follow these rules. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. You registered for an account on these forums and thus you should know these.
Posting Etiquette- Everyone interprets things differently than others depending on their culture, life experiences, and many other factors. If somebody posts a message that could be considered insulting or offensive to you, don't immediately flame them.
- Don't insult anyone. Report to a moderator if someone has insulted and/or threatened you. Responding in kind could get you warned as well.
Don't Be a D*ck
Be courteous, polite and show respect to others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right. Being a d*ck may get you warned. It may get you moderated. You might get banned for being a d*ck. Even if you are right and someone else is wrong, keep things civil.
I deleted the inappropriate squabble. Everyone is free to defend their own opinions, but let's keep it civil.
-
Thanks for the modding. I'll take this as an opportunity to remind myself to be more civil in the future too.
On topic though - I was just reading an opinion piece about multiplayer in FF games, remembered the option in FF9 to assign characters to specific controllers and thought to myself - shame on SE for not carrying on that tradition when it literally almost costs nothing to implement in turn based RPGs.
Although it would be more work - imagine how much more interesting FF15 could be if you could have the rest of the party be controlled by friends over the internet?
And with that said - that could actually also be a worthwhile mechanic to have in the remake depending on the gameplay. I would love to connect with old friends over rounds of FF7. Not gonna happen in a 100 years I guess - but it would be pretty nice.
-
.
-
Such weird questions to be asking - I mean, you'd think game-play changes etc. would be more interesting to ask about rather than whether or not to add more story content for Yuffie.
The fact that the largest portion answered that they wanted an Aerith lives route to the plot tells me all I need to know - the japanese fans are just as ridiculously out of touch with the original game as the western fan bases.
I feel old - As I have this very strong feeling that the average FF7 fan these days isn't actually FF7 fans at all - they're compilation fans who only begrudingly played the original after having been exposed to titles like AC.
-
Exactly. I think most people are out of touch with good storytelling, full stop. It's one of the reasons why I am liking Game of Thrones a lot these days (and why I also liked Breaking Bad): They are made believable because characters aren't Hollywood superheroes that cannot die. Aerith's death was something that made people think and it was a gutsy move for a game, especially at the time. I liked FFX's ending for the same reason. It made sense. Taking a core component of a story and flushing it down the loo completely undermines everything. I had more faith in the Japanese education system. 8-)
Number 2 and number 4 are spot on, though. As for voice acting, forget it. There is a reason books are still read.
-
Personally I don't mind voice-acting in and of itself.
As a developer and a writer though, I am concerned how it will impact a game that was written much the same way as a book.
If all the central dialogue is voice acted events will feel dragged out and sluggish in my opinion. There is just so much dialogue to cover, and so from a disk-space, money and production perspective it's also pretty tough, which introduces and increases the likelihood of major changes to story sequences. Cut-backs on dialogue is pretty certain to happen I think, and that's pretty sad if it's the case.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the remake should aspire to have more content, not less, if it wants to compete with the original.
-
The fact that the largest portion answered that they wanted an Aerith lives route to the plot tells me all I need to know - the japanese fans are just as ridiculously out of touch with the original game as the western fan bases.
I would guess they are even moreso. Keep in mind, Final Fantasy XIII was very well received in Japan, by critics and audiences alike. The country has, in general, a focus on more story-driven and less-gameplay driven games than the west, as far as I can tell.
-
Normally I take the stance against reviving Aeris because it conflicts with the main point in the game. Death is permanent. And the fact that nothing you try works, and that people thought there had to be spawned so many rumours. Though the "Aeris dies" is the spoiler everyone knows so the impact won't be the same as it was in 1997, I feel like it's the part they shouldn't compromise on and something important to FFVII.
Though with "route" in quotation marks, I'm thinking more about visual novels. An alternate New Game+ storyline where the events can unfold in a different away depending on decisions made by the player, and Aeris does live doesn't sound bad to me. Different characters could be obtained, Shinra could instead be the main foe. A whole new storyline that isn't canon but allows the world and its characters to be explored in a different way. And a whole new storyline would of course be too much work to put a single game of this scale, but I can dream dammit!
-
I think voice acting is a big no-no because everyone had their own idea about what each character sounded like and you could imagine things that weren't shown due to the limitations of the console. But to show full HD characters, with voice, takes away some of what made the original game great - your own imagination. It didn't bother me with FFX because we got introduced to it that way, but with FF7 I am not so sure it's a wise move. And that's before we get on to what Hian mentioned with the cutbacks in other departments to compensate. Disc storage shouldn't be an issue if they compress the audio properly. They absolutely did not do that with Metal Gear Solid 4. Of course, they could allow you to turn the VA off... but will they?
Like Hian, I think cutting content is the absolute worst thing you can do. The dialogue in FF7 is astronomical. You only realize it when you have to read it through in text files.
-
I haven't kept up with this thread as it's become more of a debate than discussion. Personally I don't mind if they update the game and style it to a more FFXIII - XV style. The old turn based battles work and were fun enough, but don't define the game. Hell someone made a mod to remove random battles because they can feel so mundane after awhile, so updating the battle system isn't really an issue. I also see no issues with voice overs for cutscenes and most dialogue. In the end the game is so special because of the interesting storyline and characters, relaying them in a new way doesn't change them.
If you want to play an updated version of the game that's 100% loyal to the original than just mod the Steam version. With the currently completed mods available the original game performs and looks really quite good.
-
That's the thing - imho it DOES define the game. The battle system was at least half of what the original game was. When you remove the ATB and replace it with a modern battle system, you are absolutely NOT remaking the game. You are restructuring it fundamentally. Most people I know who wanted a remake of FF7 did not want major things tinkering with. They wanted improvements and enhancements but within the confines of the original style. When that doesn't happen (as it won't), it will alienate the very people this remake was intended for from the beginning - or at least the people who wanted it the most. I also happen to believe modern battle systems of FF13 + are totally inferior and brain-dead (i.e., aimed at fast action rather than thought). That doesn't really help.
I've said it before: Those who don't want a remake in the style of the original game and want something completely reinvented would be far happier with a totally NEW game. The remake was for those who wanted a remake. The argument that we still have the Steam version has 2 issues: 1. FF7r will end up being the one remembered by this generation and for a lot of people to come. 2. The original fans by and large wanted something faithful to the original game and have waited years for this.
This remake isn't even out yet and it's already causing a divide. I can hardly wait for the atom bomb to land. I am hoping for something with at least some semblance of soul, but not even their promotion FF7 logo makes me optimistic.
http://ffvii-remake.square-enix.com/images/logo.jpg
Just what is that turd?
-
I would guess they are even moreso. Keep in mind, Final Fantasy XIII was very well received in Japan, by critics and audiences alike. The country has, in general, a focus on more story-driven and less-gameplay driven games than the west, as far as I can tell.
Yes and no. The Japanese gaming industry is also what gave us Super Mario, Sonic, Mega-man and the Souls Series.
If anything, there is a strong divide in the industry and the gamers in regards to what games should play like depending on
preferences.
Also, we should be careful about generalizing based on this article though, because the sample selection of the poll is very unlikely to say anything of substance about the fans in general - I've seen plenty of comments on articles about the remake at famitsu that mirrors the general opinion of people like DLPB as well. But, I was guilty of that with my comment in either case, but I was tired when I wrote it, so there's that.
In any case, if it's so that the Japanese fans of FF at this point care more about Aerith revival than anything else, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Japanese fans care more about narrative structure than game-play concerning the remake as a whole - it might simply mean that the range of FF7 fans at this moment, as I said, are actually percentage-wise mostly compilation fans rather than fans of the original game, and because the compilation is dominated by a movie, a novel(s), and a few action games it makes sense that they wouldn't much of an attachment to the set-up or design of the original game.
The "problem" with FF (and arguably what made it so popular across countries and cultures to begin with) is that it's always been standing in the middle of that divide delivering strong character and story driven experiences with a lot of game-play to boot.
Lately though, it's been shifting more and more towards the "cinematic" game approach - which is, unfortunately, I believe largely due to the fact that the Japanese market is moving more and more away from games that demand a lot of engagement and time from the players (because the average Japanese person above elementary school simply don't have all that much time to game, except on the go), and because the technology (and I would argue humans - because even if the game supported AC style combat, how would you control that stuff and keep up with the enemy A.I?) still doesn't allow games to play like what Advent Children look like, which is essentially the type of action a lot of FF fans have come to expect from the franchise after the release of that movie.
FF as a franchise has shot itself in the foot in many ways.
It's lost to the times, social pressures and economical pressures, and what we're left with is products that are to JRPGs what Call of Duty is to the FPS genre.
They're not horrible games by any account. Plenty of people buy and enjoy them - but they're not groundbreaking or top of the line either, which is problematic for most old-school fans of the series who've fallen pray to the inevitable rule of diminishing returns.
Sure, if I hadn't played every single FF title ever released, and pretty much every JRPG ever made for SNES, PS1 and PS2 era (not an overstatement - I mean really.), then FF13 might have been a really good experience.
As it is, keep subtracting the things the made the older games great, whilst not adding enough new to compensate - making them bland and uninteresting experiences of rehashed material in a shiny wrapping with one or two original game-play elements that aren't particularly good, or even needed, to begin with.
I think voice acting is a big no-no because everyone had their own idea about what each character sounded like and you could imagine things that weren't shown due to the limitations of the console. But to show full HD characters, with voice, takes away some of what made the original game great - your own imagination.
I would agree with this if the rest of the compilation hadn't been using voice acting since the release of Advent Children way back when.
For most people, Cloud and Co already had their voices defined at that point - and as the saying goes "what has been seen (or in this case, heard) cannot be unseen."
Thankfully, my first viewing of AC was in Japanese, and those voice actors fit pretty decently with my conception of the character voices (with the exception of Barret of course, because his voice was always definitely African-American sounding in my head).
Another point I think that people don't realize, from a scientific point of view, is that the mind doesn't actually (as is physically incapable of) conceptualizing voices in your head that aren't ambiguous. You don't actually hear voices in your head when you read - you conceptualize and abstraction based on experiences and memories, that manifest much the same way as a memory of a long-since passed event etc. I.E it's fundamentally ambiguous and abstract.
Whatever you or others think Cloud sounds like in your head does not actually translate into actual sound. It's just like a foggy/false memory and it cannot actually be accurately replicated. There is a whole range of Cloud voices that probably fits your conception of Cloud's voice, but you won't be able to actually peg that down until it's right there in front of you, although you might think to yourself right now that you can.
That being said, a voice can still end up being outside of that range, and as such, end up being a disappointment. But, the fact of the matter is that voices are largely products of physical traits that are, to a certain degree, fairly predictable - and it's the experiences you've had with speech that determines your expectations to what a person will sound like when they speak, which furthermore is pretty uniform among humans in general.
So, the range of voices that fit Barrets, for instance, is pretty given and not very hard to realize in a way that will fit with most people's conceptions of what a large, muscular black person raised in a ghetto would sound like.
I would actually say it takes a special kind of person to get Barret's voice wrong, or to imagine Barret's voice in such a way that it conflicts with what most other people would conceive of it as.
It didn't bother me with FFX because we got introduced to it that way, but with FF7 I am not so sure it's a wise move. And that's before we get on to what Hian mentioned with the cutbacks in other departments to compensate. Disc storage shouldn't be an issue if they compress the audio properly. They absolutely did not do that with Metal Gear Solid 4. off course, they could allow you to turn the VA off... but will they?
Compression can only do so much if you want to keep the quality of your audio intact though, and it's going to go into the disk with all the graphical resources etc. Looking at the whole of it - will they have space to squander on NPC voices?
There is another point to be made though, from a stylistic perspective - How would non voice-acted scenes look with the current graphical quality? I'd imagine it would look kind of absurd to see a bunch of semi-photo-realistic people standing in a circle, moving their lips (or worse - not moving them and just staring at each other silently) with no sound, and the dialogue appearing in text-boxes.
Just a few thoughts.
Still agree that cutting content, dialogue/exposition perhaps most of all, would be damaging to the experience.
You don't walk into a remake expecting less than the original - you walk into it expecting more.
-
If it's voice, you can achieve surprisingly good results at even v low bitrates. 64kbit/s mono is good enough that most people can't hear the difference in their own voice. I'm not sure what the industry standard is but I'd be surprised if they needed to go as high as 128. I certainly can't tell the difference when I make an mp3 of a voice at 128. That's why I'm not sure what MGS4 team were playing at (or FF12 which was AWFUL). A 50GB bluray disc can hold a heck of a lot of sound at that bitrate (868 hours at 128 kbit/s) , and if they REALLY needed to, they could use 2 discs.
-
...
Personally I don't mind if they update the game and style it to a more FFXIII - XV style. The old turn based battles work and were fun enough, but don't define the game. Hell someone made a mod to remove random battles because they can feel so mundane after awhile, so updating the battle system isn't really an issue
...
To be honest I can't see how the gameplay is NOT included when defining a game. When Tetris is remade people would scratch their heads if the developers said it's hard to know what kind of gameplay tetris fans wants, and are unsure if the gameplay is important when defining tetris. "Maybe people today like action more so let make TetrisR a RTS type of game."
Yes, RPGs like FFs have more to them then the combat system, but the combat system is always in the front rows when they are judged or "defined". An RPG with a great story, music, etc, will not receive great reviews if the gameplay/battle sytem sucks hard. In cases like this, changing the battle system would actually be a good idea. But if the formula is not broken, they don't need to fix it. To say that FF7R needs a new battle system is just an excuse to appeal to a broader audience. If I didn't know better, I could interpret it as SE admitting that the gameplay in FF7 sucks.
-
If it's voice, you can achieve surprisingly good results at even v low bitrates. 64kbit/s mono is good enough that most people can't hear the difference in their own voice. I'm not sure what the industry standard is but I'd be surprised if they needed to go as high as 128. I certainly can't tell the difference when I make an mp3 of a voice at 128. That's why I'm not sure what MGS4 team were playing at (or FF12 which was AWFUL). A 50GB bluray disc can hold a heck of a lot of sound at that bitrate (868 hours at 128 kbit/s) , and if they REALLY needed to, they could use 2 discs.
For what it's worth, MP3 was no good for voice or sound effects last gen. Very high latency is fine for music, but awful for anything being loaded on the fly, as well as eating up CPU that (at least outside of cutscenes) might already be on short supply. That said, MGS4 did mess up, by leaving all the audio completely uncompressed.
I also disagree that 128kbps is good enough. "I certainly can't tell the difference" isn't especially convincing, as many people, myself included, certainly can. Double blind tests (many of which can be found on the hydrogenaudio forums) have even confirmed as much. It'll have particularly obvious artifacting on high end sound systems (and even many midrange sound systems), which can be exacerbated if it's going through any in-engine post-processing, such as to apply position relative to the camera, or realistic reverb for a scene.
That said, 256kb/s OGG/Vorbis should be plenty enough for in-game usage, provided they keep the original uncompressed or lossless compressed around for archival purposes. 224kb/s vorbis is lower latency than MP3 in pretty much all circumstances, lower CPU to decompress, and has generally been shown to be high enough quality as to be considered "transparent" even by audiophiles. This would certainly be more than enough to ensure storage is not an issue under any circumstances
-
I'd take you up on the double blind test because I'd wager most here would fail it. For sure. (Assuming it was done right. When I made the files, I couldn't). When I was talking about MP3 I wasn't meaning that is a good format for games, I meant that's what I used in my own tests. The game formats would probably get even more out of the 128 kbit (I mean consoles. I'm not sure how it is anymore, but it used to all be proprietary).
But yeah, even then, at less than 320 you still have hundreds of hours to play with. There's no reason that voice has to take so much, so I don't know why MGS4 had all audio uncompressed.
Edit.
Also, even if you could tell the difference, the difference is small and is not going to impact on the gamer when there are other ambient sounds and background music. Apart from FF12 (I really don't know what they did there), I have never thought "that voice quality is crap". It's way down the list of noticeable faults.
-
To be honest I can't see how the gameplay is NOT included when defining a game. When Tetris is remade people would scratch their heads if the developers said it's hard to know what kind of gameplay tetris fans wants, and are unsure if the gameplay is important when defining tetris. "Maybe people today like action more so let make TetrisR a RTS type of game."
Yes, RPGs like FFs have more to them then the combat system, but the combat system is always in the front rows when they are judged or "defined". An RPG with a great story, music, etc, will not receive great reviews if the gameplay/battle sytem sucks hard. In cases like this, changing the battle system would actually be a good idea. But if the formula is not broken, they don't need to fix it. To say that FF7R needs a new battle system is just an excuse to appeal to a broader audience. If I didn't know better, I could interpret it as SE admitting that the gameplay in FF7 sucks.
The main draw to the FF7 battle system for me was the deep customization of the materia system, because it was easy to get into but had enough there for people to really dig into if they felt like it. The materia system is not something that could only be used in a ATB or turn based combat system, though it might be utilized to its fullest with classic turn based combat, and for me it is the defining feature of FF7's gameplay. If they can find an alternative way to make it deep, rewarding, and allow me to customize my party and coordinate our attacks in a way that uses the materia system well, it won't seem foreign to me at all.
Besides the materia system, IMHO, the gameplay was boring at times, broken at other times, and rarely was engaging. As far as turned based combat goes, there are far better choices (and many of them as well) than FF7. If I had to guess other reasons why FF7's combat is rarely looked down upon is because it is easy and does not get in the way of the narrative. Other deeper, and more complex turn based combat systems can really bring the game to a halt if you're not clever enough to play through it smoothly. (I suck at the SMT series, but I still love those games nevertheless. FF7 and Persona would probably be considered shallow and casual by comparison to SMT in the minds of some.)
In my opinion, being someone who does not really like any entries in the compilation and was introduced to FF7 in 1999, the defining features were:
+Characters
+Storytelling
+Plot
+Materia System
EDIT: +I almost forgot Exploration and feeling like a captain (with a badass crew) when you fly the ship all over the world.
I was indifferent about the combat system
-I thought the lego-styled placeholder field models looked like trash (obviously graphics don't really matter to me).
-I could spot grammar mistakes and errors in translation that made some conversations unintelligible.
I'm not arguing that anyone should not care about the gameplay, I'm just explaining why I don't, despite the fact that I am a fan of the original and not of the compilation, in order for others to see where the segment of fans with a similar disinterest in wishing to keep the gameplay turn based. That being said, I would be totally fine if at PSX Square Enix showed off gameplay that was Turn Based or ATB, as the combat itself really is not that important to me (I hope that it wouldn't be bad enough to get in the way though).
-
Personally... I would like to see a turn towards the more realistic and an abandonment of come of the more ridiculous aspects of the original game.
Combat, for example could be more similar to that employed in "Mass Effect", while Materia would be a genuine scientific product as hinted at in the original game with some sort of electro chemically focused energy.
These just happen to take the properties of various elements etc and can be used to upgrade weapons with these properties.
"Summons" are superfluous and unnecessary and detract from the overall game IMO.
Likewise the "Weapons" should have been constructed by the Cetra, and not the planet.
Ultimately what would like to see is a story with more depth and credibility. More science, less ridiculousness and real-time combat done correctly. I.e swords are useless unless close up, so cloud should use a gun for the most part unless he employs some sort of shield, i.e mass effect
-
Mass Effect?
Please NO! I don't want to see Barret and/or Vincent try to flirt with Cloud.
-
Very dry :)
I think the game needs to grow up.
That means, real physics, real characters.
I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.
-
...
Besides the materia system, IMHO, the gameplay was boring at times, broken at other times, and rarely was engaging. As far as turned based combat goes, there are far better choices (and many of them as well) than FF7...
In my opinion, being someone who does not really like any entries in the compilation and was introduced to FF7 in 1999, the defining features were:
+Characters
+Storytelling
+Plot
+Materia System
EDIT: +I almost forgot Exploration and feeling like a captain (with a badass crew) when you fly the ship all over the world.
I was indifferent about the combat system
Not saying you are wrong here, but the storytelling and characters can be stale, boring, absurd, out of place, etc, at times too. As I've said before gameplay vs story ratio in the game is not well balanced at times (true for all games with story lol, so, shrug).
Everyone agrees the FF7 battle system has flaws. What I'm saying is that the gameplay/battle system formula is a huge factor when it comes to "defining" FF7. The system needs to be polished, not fixed.
To be fair, battle focused RPGs is about the only genre where it would be possible to even discuss what the actual gameplay is. I think it's extremely obvious *cough*thebattlesystem*cough*, but I recognize the room for interpretation.
...
I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.
Exactly, they need to appeal to the masses, which includes a more adult audience. The other stuff you said kinda ruins the entire lore of FF7. Basically what you are saying is that you want a Mass Effect esque game with a FF7 skin?
What I'm getting here is that people don't mind the turn based ATB sytem -> action based system. As long as it's good (duh!). I dunno, but I can't imagine the opposite being true. If FF7 was an action game originally, turning it into a turn-based game would be be blasphemy and ruin what FF7 was "all about". Slightly exaggerating here. Only slightly.
I'm looking forward to the day turn-based RPGs becomes trendy (or maybe I fear it)... T_T
-
.
-
.
-
That's the right idea. Historically, Square Enix's FF remakes have usually had additional dungeons. This is a much greater in scope remake than those, but new sidequest content would absolutely be in tradition with what they usually do.
-
Not saying you are wrong here, but the storytelling and characters can be stale, boring, absurd, out of place, etc, at times too. As I've said before gameplay vs story ratio in the game is not well balanced at times (true for all games with story lol, so, shrug).
True... I see your point and really have no way of countering it lol. At the end of the day, the parts of the game cannot be objectively viewed as more integral to the game and make up the "core" of the experience, so debating what aspects are more suited for change is really subjective. The major point I see in favor of the old school fans that are upset about losing ATB is that this is supposed to be a "remake", which should be improving what is already there and not changing any of the fundamental components. So if Square was to do a "remake", they should be balancing the ATB already present in the game, working to make it more engaging, and simultaneously correcting any mistakes made on the storytelling side (such as detracting plot holes). When changing a part of the game such as ATB, instead of improving it, the process should be called a "reboot" or "re-imagining". What I hope is that, if ATB is removed, the reason why Square went with "Remake" is that they are being a faithful to the rest of the game as possible. From the looks of it though, the game (from the trailer) is looking like it might possibly round out the compilation, and tailor the story, gameplay, and the rest of the game to fit more in that universe rather than being faithful to the original (which would be very disappointing for me).
I just personally feel like (possibly irrationally), out of all the ATB/Turn based Final Fantasies, FF7 is probably the one that could most easily be converted to another "battle system" (I hate that term but I'm too dumb to think of something else). Games like FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, and FF10 (the other games in the series I like and am most familiar with) just would not seem right if they were not turn based or ATB. I don't know quite how to articulate why I do not feel the same for FF7 other than the reasons I previously mentioned. I guess I really feel like the Materia system, it's uniqueness, and how it is central to the plot of the story really drives home the feeling that it stole the show and make the ATB aspect of combat irrelevant to my enjoyment. I don't get the same feeling from say FF9's accessories or FF10's sphere grid, for example. If any of those games were to be remade and not be turn based, I'd definitely be scratching my head.
Another game I am not quite as fond of but could easily be an action RPG is FF12, because the only difference would be making the free running you can already do actually meaningful, and eliminate wait periods for physical attacks.
-
Another game I am not quite as fond of but could easily be an action RPG is FF12, because the only difference would be making the free running you can already do actually meaningful, and eliminate wait periods for physical attacks.
Play Dragon Age Origin and Dragon Age 2 and see how terrible this idea is.
-
Play Dragon Age Origin and Dragon Age 2 and see how terrible this idea is.
I own both but haven't gotten around to playing either. I'm assuming you're saying DAO's combat is essentially FF12 (which I have played), and DA2's combat is the most likely implementation of real time elements.
From reading metacritic reviews (both critics and users), it seems that the most common and severe complaints about DA2 is that it is linear, repetitive (both in terms of activities and in assets and locales that are being constantly recycled), and otherwise "streamlined". The first two complaints have nothing to do with combat, and the "streamlined" (or what seems to be removal of features) is also a direct cause of what appears to be at attempt to cut down on the budget of the game. My suggestion does not necessitate any of those complaints.
Changing positioning to actually matter, that is, that attacks could generally be avoided depending on your position, I would argue would make the gameplay more strategic, as there is another aspect of the combat to consider. Removing the timer for physical attacks on the other hand, might seem like "dumbing down" if the game was not balanced accordingly so that one may not simply whack away on enemies with physical attacks until their health depleted. Neither suggestion requires removing any features.
What I do know is that FF12's combat feels like a shallow attempt at MMO-combat, where there is constant grinding and an emphasis on enemies with overly-large health bars IMO. FF12's combat had only one saving-grace for me, which was the gambit system, which does not necessitate either of the features I suggested changing. The gambit system itself was not balanced well with the rest of the game either, because the simplistic combat and overly-long battles encouraged Gambit setups that basically auto-played the game until the battle was over (if you did it properly you could literally go make a sandwich or watch tv for an hour until the battle was over).
Anything to make FF12's gameplay not so monotous would be a godsend for my opinion on the game, and at the very least an elimination of the wait time on physical attacks would give you something to do while your characters prepared for another summon or spell cast.
If I was to use a similar retort I would say: Play The Witcher and The Witcher 3 and see how great of an idea this is.
-
I don't see where FF12's battle system is like The Witcher.
I played The Witcher and The Witcher 2 and they actually only changed the semi action battles to full action. Nevertheless the player has always to hit a button to trigger an attack. I think both battle systems work, but for realism is the full action system better. And you have only to maintain one character.
Anyway Dragon Age was well balanced and has brought the old western RPG genre to this age. So the main reason to play DA2 was to go on with the great experience you got with DA, but for some reasons EA thought more action more sells, so let the player trigger the attack which would normally automatically be played. But there is no tactical advantage for this. Other in TW2 where they rebuild the battle system for a better action experience, instead to slip over a silly pseudo interaction.
-
Mass Effect?
Please NO! I don't want to see Barret and/or Vincent try to flirt with Cloud.
Well you can go on a date with Barret, but that was a joke/ easter egg(y?) thing, and I found it funny. But I agree please Square Enix, no politically correct social just warrior agenda in my games. I don't think they will, Japan's media hasn't been infiltrated to the same extent as ours in America,Europe, etc.
Do you guys think they might go with a Kingdom hearts 2 type battle system except with the addition of Materia? I think that would make the most sense, and if done right it wouldn't be bad, the only bad thing about it is would you only be controlling cloud? That would kind of suck, especially since I'm assuming you'd miss out on using the limits of other party members or maybe you can give them orders like in dragon age origins tactics system? That might actually be neat on PC, but don't see it working with a controller.
-
I don't think that Nomura will do that. It will be a more controllable version of the FF13 battle system.
I would love it if they make it like Chrono Trigger.
-
Very dry :)
I think the game needs to grow up.
That means, real physics, real characters.
I know the game is essentially fantasy, but it still needs to be somewhat plausible, especially in today's more adult audience.
This is a horrible sentiment.
Nothing "needs" to do anything when it comes to art and media - Art and media is not made because of needs, it's made because of wants and desires, often the express visions of the artists, not the demands of the people who feel entitled to engage with the product.
Today's audience is no more "adult" than it was back when the original was released, and the ratio of adults vs young adults vs kids playing the remake is not necessarily going to be different from the original.
To say that fantasy needs to be plausible is ridiculous. Fantasy is essentially and necessarily implausible. The only factor important to writing fantasy is consistency.
FF7 is consistently implausible, which makes it consist with itself. The more "realism" you add to it, the more glaring the absurdities of the game becomes, because it's now being inconsistent with what is realistic and what isn't, and it's being so selectively and arbitrarily.
You always have to suspend disbelief or conventional ideas of realism for fantasy to work within a narrative. You want Cloud to stop using swords in combat against people with machine-guns because it's unrealistic? Then why stop there? Why not remove the Buster Sword entirely?
After all, wielding the Buster Sword is physically impossible given Cloud's size.
It doesn't actually matter if Cloud is super-strong etc. because the weight of the blade, and the momentum created by swinging the blade would literally launch Cloud up into the air and send him flying off into the horizon unless it hit a solid object capable of withstanding the blow mid-swing.
So, why does one aspect demand realism but another does not?
I'd also make the argument that the sentiment of wanting games to "grow up" is essentially a childish and immature sentiment.
An adult doesn't feel insecure to the point that they can't engage with or enjoy with whimsical and fantastical narratives.
Case in point, plenty of adults enjoy Pixar and Disney movies.
while Materia would be a genuine scientific product as hinted at in the original game with some sort of electro chemically focused energy.
Where exactly is this hinted at? Sephiroth clearly explains that materia is a natural phenomenon, and not a scientific product.
"Summons" are superfluous and unnecessary and detract from the overall game IMO.
Superfluous in comparison to what? Again, things like these aren't there because they have to be - they're there because someone wanted them to be. The same can be said for absolutely anything in the system. The limit breaks don't have to be there either. Do they objectively add something important to the game-play the summons don't? Not really.
They're just there, because it's fun and interesting.
Also, how do they actually detract from the game? Care to qualify or elaborate?
Likewise the "Weapons" should have been constructed by the Cetra, and not the planet.
Why?
Ultimately what would like to see is a story with more depth and credibility. More science, less ridiculousness and real-time combat done correctly. I.e swords are useless unless close up, so cloud should use a gun for the most part unless he employs some sort of shield, i.e mass effect
Then go play a science-fiction game like Mass Effect.
Cloud uses a sword because he's a person who's enhanced by Mako and Jenova cells, who also knows how to use magic using materia. What use is a gun to him, when he can outmaneuver any ordinary human that might try to shoot him with a gun, and spend most of his time fighting huge monsters?
A gun runs out of ammo, and a gun's damage capacity is limited to its core components and ammunition (I.E facing an enemy like Jenova, clearly Cloud's sword will do more damage than a hand-gun will, for instance).
Melee weapons in the FF universe are clearly the better option for most battle scenarios these people face. It's also pretty clear that the vast majority of characters who rely on firearms usually do so because A.) they don't know how to use materias, or B.) are too weak to use melee weapons.
(Barret clearly didn't know how to use materia prior to meeting Cloud, and Vincent carries a gun because he's a former Turk)
Of course, this is post-hoc rationalization on my part. The only reason FF7 features both guns and swords, is because it fantasy, and the creators thought that would be cool. You can justify it though, just as you can make arguments that it doesn't work.
My point here though, is that this is a matter of taste, not of objective quality.
If you don't like that aspect of FF7, then you don't really like FF7 for what it is - and that point my question would be, why should the remake be catering to people like you? You'd be better off just playing Mass Effect.
I don't think that Nomura will do that. It will be a more controllable version of the FF13 battle system.
I would love it it if they make it like Chrono Trigger.
I am hoping for something similar.
On map, no transition entry for a menu-based combat system.
Have the enemies on screen, and the encounters triggered by touch - like Chrono Trigger.
Then, I'd like the rest of it to be more or less like FFX-2, regular ATB, but livened up by having the characters move about a bit,
and perhaps added variations to the attack animations etc. to make the combat seem more fluid and alive.
This way the game would play a lot like the original, but look and feel more up-to-date and probably satisfy younger and new fans as well. It would also mean that you could keep the battle theme, and the victory theme in as well.
After all, if it ends up being like FF15, the soundtrack transitions wouldn't work very well.
Imagine the FF7 battle theme cross-fading in and out constantly as you move in and out of range of enemies on the map, and the victory theme being cut off abruptly if another enemy walks into range just as you defeated the last ones to be in range previously.
Wouldn't work, and they'd likely cut it out, or make new themes entirely, and that would be just another stylistic change to the game that nobody really wants.
-
Taking one of your examples: Let's say the Cetra did create the Weapons. How would that be more realistic? It's LESS. The idea is that the Weapons were born of the planet, like a rare mineral, and you can accept that. The second you state that the Cetra created them you have left yourself a massive problem: How does a nomadic and primitive race create such technological wonders? How? It just makes your brain grind to a halt, which is what good fiction hopes to avoid. It also isn't necessary.
Don't get me started on "scientific" explanations to materia. We all saw what happened when that bone head Lucas did that with the Force. It cripped the whole mythology.
This is a game. You cannot strip out absurdities from battle or you would have no battle. You can strip it out of cutscenes as much as possible. And they did.
If you don't like that aspect of FF7, then you don't really like FF7 for what it is - and that point my question would be, why should the remake be catering to people like you? You'd be better off just playing Mass Effect.
Precisely. But the FF7 team don't see it our way, and so it will do its best to be as all-encompassing as it can.
-
Precisely. But the FF7 team don't see it our way, and so it will do its best to be as all-encompassing as it can.
We'll see. As I've said - A lot of the changes that make the game more friendly to the general populace will probably come
about due to financial concerns, more so than fan-concerns.
Even if the entire FF7 remake team though that a true remake is the way to go, as long as the department gauging public
opinions on games, and the financial backers think otherwise they're left with little real choice but to mainstream it.
Going by one Nomura interview, it seems to be the case that several of the people on the team are FF7 conservatives. Too bad that Nomura in the very same interview pretty much said that those opinions won't be the ones holding the most definitional power in the development of the remake.
-
I hope they don't 'orchestrate' the whole soundtrack... The original soundtrack had a lot of electronic touches, which I know probably have been brought by technological limitations at the time, but still I think the electronic side was such a integral part of the soundtrack, it would be sad to hear everything just 'orchestrated'.
-
If they were half decent, they'd offer a "old" and "new"... but there's very little chance of that. Even if it isn't orchestrated, they'll redo the soundtrack, which will further piss people off. It did me with FFX (they added option later, but it was much easier to do that with FFX update).
-
They will most likely 'techno', 'pop' and 'rock' up the soundtrack. Victory fanfare with lead guitar and all. Actually I'd rather they keep each tune within its original genre. I don't mind improving the quality, and seeing how these things tends to be butchered I would prefer it if SE kept the soundtrack within its safezone instead of 'j-poping' it up haha. I never heard the FFX remake, thus I cannot comment, but still, if it's one thing I'm somewhat positive of is that they don't fuck up the soundtrack too much. 'Advent Children' it up?
-
They will most likely 'techno', 'pop' and 'rock' up the soundtrack. Victory fanfare with lead guitar and all. Actually I'd rather they keep each tune within its original genre. I don't mind improving the quality, and seeing how these things tends to be butchered I would prefer it if SE kept the soundtrack within its safezone instead of 'j-poping' it up haha.
Oh god I hope they don't add j-pop songs... Not in FF VII.
I wouldn't mind some rock themed tracks, but only where it's appropriate like in "Opressed People" (more reggae than rock, really) the Boss Theme or "Birth of a God".
There some are tracks off course that would benefit from orchestration, like "Shinra Company","Shinra Wages A Full Scale Attack", "Weapon Raid","Hurry Faster","Jenova Absolute".
The more quiet and moodier songs like "Flowers Blooming in the Church", "Desert Wasteland","You Can Hear the Cry of the Planet", "Parochial Town" should be left pretty much unchanged. Just use higher quality instruments but leave the arrangement as it is. And they need to keep that beautiful characteristic E-Piano. They need to have it in every track that had it originally... Hell, if they want a higher quality version of that piano, they can accurately recreate it on most modern software synths, which I even did myself in the free "Synth1" VSTi.
Yes, I'm extremely pedantic with this kind of stuff, this is FF VII we're talking about after all.
-
They should just use the instruments that were intended for the tracks to begin with. Yes, the original soundtrack was entirely based on the electric synths of the PSX sound-chip - however, each of the melody lines were composed completely with specific instruments and synths in mind that they didn't have the resources to use or make at the time.
Most of the songs, like the songs in FF8 and FF9, use a combination of orchestral instruments, el-guitars, modern percussion and synth.
Point in case - The boss battle theme obviously employs synths, el-guitars, bass and modern percussion. The battle theme on the other hand employs almost purely orchestral instruments.
If they want to make the soundtrack true to the original, they should just use the original midi tracks, and replace each respective instrument or synth with a high-end VST (or real audio recording) and more modern high-end synths.
That being said though - they're going to have to make some changes due to presentation differences between the new and the old game.
In movies you never have one track just running on repeat in the back-ground with no care for what's actually going on in the scene.
The structure and flow of each pieces is tailored to the structure and flow of each scene. You see this kind of audio-structure in the old FF FMVs already.
Problem with the new game is that essentially any scene is now going to flow much more closely to the PSX era FMVs than the events of the original game.
To illustrate - While in the original characters just stood around and talked to each other rather statically with the camera locked in one position, that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Scenes will be designed to be more cinematic, with angles changing, panning, etc.
and more movement from the characters etc. for dramatic effect.
In that kind of cinematography the old-school set-up and use of the score won't work very well. It will feel very unnatural.
For that reason they're probably going to have to create a lot of rearrangements of the original themes to fit with the new cinematography - meaning they'll probably redo the entire soundtrack.
Just saying.
-
For that reason they're probably going to have to create a lot of rearrangements of the original themes to fit with the new cinematography
So what you're saying is...dubstep.
-
So what you're saying is...dubstep.
No, what I'm saying is that you'll have to restructure the compositions and the arrangements - not necessarily the entire style or the melodies.
However, that's a lot of work and if you're going to go down that route, chances are you'll feel tempted to do more changes - at least that's my experience working with audio production. If I have to rearrange an entire track from the ground up, and I'm going to start chopping it up, fading, cross-fading with other tracks etc. changing the dynamic of a tune to fit a scene - then it's no going to take long before I start thinking "well, maybe this track don't work as well as I though... Maybe I should add some more percussion, or remove a synth and replace it with a guitar" etc.
Suddenly the end product is something else entirely, even if the base melody line(s) is/are the same.
-
Sorry I was being sarcastic, I'd rather poke my eardrums out with a hot poker than have another franchise jump on the dub-bandwagon.
-
.
-
“Since there’s a possibility that the command battle system of the old days might not work today, we’re thinking hard about what kind of direction we can take it.
Yeah, because the old battle system is just impossible to program these days, isn't it *sarcasm*. "Might not work today" - what nonsense. It would work very easily, but it wouldn't have the mass appeal your sell-out company now wants.
It's a real shame that the ff7r didn't come about at same time as FFX for PS2... it would have been the perfect time and would have maintained its roots.
-
“Normally, when you do a remake, it becomes somewhere along the lines of a familiar action RPG, so we’re looking at how we can put out something like Final Fantasy VII while still surprising players.
Is... this translated correctly?? iirc all other FF remakes were made into action RPGs as well. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...
-
EDIT, I went and did some fact-checking, so here's the original quote in Japanese and my translation -
Question
(リメイク版FF7について。リメイクしつつハイエンドにするのは相当ハードルが高いと思うが？)
In relation to/on the topic of the remake.
While/in remaking, I think it's safe to say the hurdle is pretty high to make everything high end, right?
北瀬「ビジュアルの方向性は見えてきている。
Kitase :
We can see the visual direction of it/the visual direction it's going to go in
一方でバトルシステムなどは試行錯誤しながら詰めている状態。
On the other hand, things like the battle system are in a state of being put together through trial and error.
当時のコマンドバトルは今は通用しない可能性もあるので、どういう方向に持っていくかに気を遣っている。
Because there is a possibility that the command battles of back then (in the original) won't be popular/won't resonate/carry through (with people) now, we're concerned about what direction to take it (the remake) in.
普通にリメイクすると、どこかで見たようなアクションRPGになってしまうので、
いかにFF7らしさを出しながら驚きのあるものにするか、を追い求めていく
If we [just remake it/remake it ordinarily/make a common remake] it'll just end up like [some typical action RPG/like an action RPG you've seen somewhere before],
so we're pursuing how to bring out the feeling of (the original) FF7 whilst also making it something that contains surprises.
開発度などは聞かないでください(笑)」
Please don't ask (anymore) about the direction of the development (laugh/smile)
So this is how I interpret this -
He is not saying they aren't doing a menu-based combat system, or that it won't work - He is saying that there is a possibility that a menu-based system won't be well-received anymore, and that this a concern they're thinking about at the moment.
He's qualifying this by saying that despite this, the primary concern for the development is to keep the feeling of the original, whilst adding something new and fresh that can surprise people.
He does not want it to become just another action RPG - He's specifically saying that if they were to simply "remake it", most likely meaning if they were to just follow conventional design trends etc. it would end up like just another typical action RPG, and the "natteshimau" verb-ending at the end of that statement denotes that that's not something he considers to be positive or desires.
So from this what we can gather is -
A.) they've decided the visual direction of the game, and the general design, but not on the specific game-play mechanics, such as how to do the battles, so they're slowly trying different variants at the moment to find one that satisfy their criteria for what a good FF7 battle system should be (which he then goes on to state)
B.) they want to change up the battle system to make it a new and surprising experience, but they don't want it to turn into your average action RPG
C.) they might opt out of the command system based on popular sentiments.
That's it.
Everything after this is now outdated. I am not going to edit it out, because that would be kinda dishonest, so here's me jumping to conclusion based on bad information. Enjoy. (really though, I should know better than to accept random translations on the internet by now. Even amongst journalists, most are just bad at translating Japanese. Not because they don't know the language, but because they're knowledge is mostly theoretical, and they don't enough enough experience with the natural use of the language.)
Yeah, because the old battle system is just impossible to program these days, isn't it *sarcasm*. "Might not work today" - what nonsense. It would work very easily, but it wouldn't have the mass appeal your sell-out company now wants.
It's a real shame that the ff7r didn't come about at same time as FFX for PS2... it would have been the perfect time and would have maintained its roots.
I can't believe Kitase is saying BS like that when his company's previous numbered FF title (FF13) had a menu-based fighting system, and when one of their best-ranking and best-selling RPG franchises at the moment, the Bravely series, has menu-based combat.
I can't believe he is saying that as they relaunch the original FF7 on new platforms constantly, and it being the best-selling FF game in the entire franchise, which still sells today despite it being so "dated" its system "no longer works" apparently.
I can't believe he is saying this when Japanese companies are still producing several of RPGs for next-gen consoles, like the Persona series, the Atelier series with menu-based battle systems.
It's BS plain and simple. Kitase, I am sorry to say that despite being a long-time producer of video games, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You're out of touch with the fan-base, judging by almost every single poll and comment I've seen on the topic of the remake, you're also out of touch with the industry and the very genre that the game you're now producing original came from. That's disgraceful to say the least.
Is... this translated correctly?? iirc all other FF remakes were made into action RPGs as well. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...
Every FF remake I've ever seen was a menu-based game (FF3-4 most notably among them), as has every other RPG remake I've ever seen (granted they are few and far between - the Wild Arms 1 remake though is a good example though).
Kitase is pulling things straight out of his ass. Maybe he's grown senile?
Seriously though - this is so hilariously bad it's giving me a headache. I am this far from sitting down and recording a lengthy rant in Japanese directed at Nomura and Kitase, and sending the link to the SE members twitter, or writing a letter and sending directly to the HQ.
Probably won't have an impact but at least when the remake turns into a turd completely butchering anything and everything that made the original a good game, I can send another letter/video and go "ファンたちの言う事無視して、FF7のオリジナルは何でいいゲームとして思われた理由がか分からんのにリメイクしたらこうなるって言っただろう！ざまあみろ！”
-
Wow, I can't believe I didn't hear the news of a REAL FF7 remake until just this week! (And then it took me a while to read this entire thread, lol). Anyway, I'm afraid I have to concur with those who are sceptical or even anxious about SquareEnix screwing this up big time. Their latest games are just proof that they simply don't know how to make good RPGs anymore. Most of it has already been said in this thread multiple times, e.g. the abandonement of the classical world map, the number of towns, NPCs, and sidequests continuously shrinking from game to game, ability systems getting simpler and leaving less room for customization (the crystarium, ugh!), and so on...
Funny thing is, instead of thinking about the things I'd like to see, I always come up with a list of what I absolutely DON'T wish for in the remake. Here's my top 5 absolute no-nos for an FF7 remake (which would give me nightmares if implemented):
1.) Dropping the world map. I didn't like that approach in FF10 and FF12, and FF13 was the horror. When the world map is not there, something is missing. In fact, whether I buy this game or not will heavily depend on the existence of a world map. On top of that, so much important stuff AND sidequests in FF7 happen on the world map, so I simply can't imagine the game working properly without it. This is basically a make-or-break factor for me.
2.) Having only one controllabe party member in battle. What I always liked most about RPGs was the "party feeling" they provided, and that comes from being able to command multiple characters at once. The approaches taken in FF13 (and now apparently FF15 as well) are an absolute worst-case scenario to me. I sincerely hope that when Kitase and Nomura talk about preserving the feeling of the original, they mean having a fully controllable party. Together with the existence of a world map, this will be another make-or-break factor for me.
3.) Changing the story (that includes both cutting content due to laziness/convenience, or adding stuff from the mind-bendingly stupid compilation)
4.) Advent Children-like character design. They've always looked strange to me, so... unfamiliar. I've always preferred the anmie-style of the original, and my ideal characters for a remake would be those that are seen in the FMVs of the original, only in HD.
5.) Keeping all the funny scenes. Some of them have already been mentioned here, so I'm not going to repeat them. I know this will be very hard or even impossible when opting for a realistic graphics style, but it's scenes like these that give a game a "heart". And if realism means that funny and humorous scenes can't be made anymore because they would seem absurd, then they shouldn't choose a realistic character style to begin with.
@hian: yeah, you really should write them a rant letter telling them how to do it right. I would if I knew any japanese. Or maybe, we could start an online petition for the stuff we want and absolutely DON'T want to see in the remake. Do you think it's too late for that already? At least then, when the game still gets messed up, we can at least say that we tried.
-
@hian: yeah, you really should write them a rant letter telling them how to do it right. I would if I knew any japanese. Or maybe, we could start an online petition for the stuff we want and absolutely DON'T want to see in the remake. Do you think it's too late for that already? At least then, when the game still gets messed up, we can at least say that we tried.
They still haven't started to select for game-play systems, just concept testing, so I wouldn't say it's too late to voice one's opinion.
Whether it is likely to have an effect is another tale entirely.
At the end of the day, I don't really think Nomura and Co are much open to suggestions. First, they're getting on in their years, and people at that age tend to be more stubborn in their ways than young people. Secondly, they've obviously already secluded themselves from fans, because they're already flirting with ideas that both the majority of western and Japanese fans alike, vocally object to all over the internet.
Finally, Nomura has said some pretty disturbing things about how it's important to not be too tied down to the original, and that he doesn't like the concept of JRPGs etc.
However, I am considering giving this a go.
If there are others here who thinks this is worth a try, and have some words they'd like included feel free to chip in. I'll write a script over the weekend, and then I'll decided whether to deliver it in writing or as a video.
If it doesn't pan out, I'll at least get to make a follow up saying "I told you so - you guys should be flogged. kthnxbai"
-
.
-
Secondly, they've obviously already secluded themselves from fans, because they're already flirting with ideas that both the majority of western and Japanese fans alike, vocally object to all over the internet.
Yup. Years before this was even announced I predicted this would be the outcome. It didn't really take the Oracle. I hoped it wouldn't. They have no intention of making FF7r faithful to the original, because they consider FF7 too archaic and want to have mass appeal. They should just call the remake "FF7: Alienation". I am still really interested in which parts I will find an improvement and which they will completely fuck up. ;D
-
To illustrate - While in the original characters just stood around and talked to each other rather statically with the camera locked in one position, that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Scenes will be designed to be more cinematic, with angles changing, panning, etc.
and more movement from the characters etc. for dramatic effect.
In that kind of cinematography the old-school set-up and use of the score won't work very well. It will feel very unnatural.
For that reason they're probably going to have to create a lot of rearrangements of the original themes to fit with the new cinematography - meaning they'll probably redo the entire soundtrack.
Just saying.
I can see what you mean but I'm not sure if the game would profit from such drastic changes...
I'm not sure if I even want every scene involving dialog to be more cinematic, because there is so much dialog in the original game, they would have to cut out a LOT of stuff for budget reasons alone, which again would mean less interactivity in the game. Speaking of which, I don't like the cheesy soap opera-standard acting they have going on with the cutscenes in their latest games anyway...
In my opinion they need go a little more back to the basics in that regard. In the original ending there isn't any talking in the cutscenes (except the ending). They were used merely for dramatic purposes to support climaxes in the story. They provided a nice contrast to the more calm dialog heavy parts of the game.
-
@hian Gematsu is not some random bs journalist it's one of the most popular, well known and respected Japanese game website's out there and many sites like Neogaf and many other game sites gets their Japanese games info from there most of the time first. So dunno why your acting like you know better than them
Because in this case I do, as demonstrated by translation - which if you spoke the language you'd be able to make an educated opinion on, but if you don't, obviously can't.
I am not "acting" like I know better, (as a person of higher education dealing primarily with the Japanese language, who speaks, read/writes the language, and lives in the country) I am making a correction on the framing of the story due to a fault in the translation. These people are no more an authority on this, than am I.
In this case, the translation is shoddy (perhaps it was rushed) - end of story. Point in case, the IGN "re-article" on this piece features a cleaned up translation that is much closer to mine, than to the original one.
I even provided the actually quotes broken down, with alternatives for the words and inflections that are ambiguous. If you still think the original translation isn't bad or misleading, I can break the entire thing down to you word by word, particle by particle, verb-ending by verb-ending, and show you exactly where it gets things wrong. Would that satisfy you?
I can see what you mean but I'm not sure if the game would profit from such drastic changes...
Depends on what you mean by "benefit".
It benefits the cinematic experience of the game for people who're looking for that kind of stuff, but it ties together with what you say next, and leads to -
I'm not sure if I even want every scene involving dialog to be more cinematic, because there is so much dialog in the original game, they would have to cut out a LOT of stuff for budget reasons alone, which again would mean less interactivity in the game. Speaking of which, I don't like the cheesy soap opera-standard acting they have going on with the cutscenes in their latest games anyway...
- the fact that they'll probably cut a lot of story content and dialogue to stream-line the scenes.
People standing around spouting tons of dialogue and exposition is not good movie-making. Games these days approach story-telling much more like the movies, than what games used to do.
They'll probably rewrite the entire script, and stream-line all the major story events to enable a more "exciting" telling of the story.
In my opinion they need go a little more back to the basics in that regard. In the original ending there isn't any talking in the cutscenes (except the ending). They were used merely for dramatic purposes to support climaxes in the story. They provided a nice contrast to the more calm dialog heavy parts of the game.
Well to be fair, this game might not even feature much in terms of cut-scenes, because the graphic and animations will be good enough to support these dramatic scenes without the use of FMVs. If anything, FMVs in games were often used to portray what in-game engines couldn't at the times and now we don't have that problem anymore, so to use FMVs for one type of events, and in-game graphics for others make very little sense most of the time, except when you just really want to amp up the graphical fidelity of a scene for the pure wow-factor.
I am just afraid that in the attempt at making the game more cinematic and interesting to watch, the costs of that will hurt the amount of content of the game.
I've always been of the opinion that if a game dev team can pick between having really good graphics or lowering graphical fidelity in order to put more power into game-play mechanics, smooth frame-rates, more awesome physics in the world, and more moving objects on the screen, then they should definitely do that.
Imagine how huge of a world (perhaps the entire thing destroyable like a map in "Worms") with how many moving interactive parts, and physical wonders you could make in a PS4 game if you decided to be satisfied with PS2 level graphics for a game.
Take FF12. If you had that graphical baseline, you could spend so much more processing power in really creative dynamic lighting and shadows, magic effects, put more characters, buildings and things on screen at the same time, increase draw-distances and even make an entire expansive version of the FF7 world in 1:1 scale, fill it with content and probably still cram it all into one blue-ray, and have it run without any major snags.
And the sad fact is that FF12 is still a beautiful game, even if a new generation of retrograde Call of Duty fans don't understand that, because they're incapable of enjoying graphics for its artistry, only for how well it mimics the real world.
Graphic-whoring is literally the major obstructing force for good game development. It's starting to lampoon the entire industry at this point, by leading to production costs so huge that they cannot possibly be covered without major mainstream success, which creates the necessity for dirty and dishonest marketing campaigns, paid DLC and micro-transactions, and non-challenging, bland and unoriginal game-play mechanics.
I didn't want an FF7 remake to fall victim to that - but because of Nomura stylistic choices, and his obsession with making the graphics (of an anime styled game...) more realistic, that's probably what's going to happen.
As I said before - the new style will cost SE their shirt if they don't manage to sell it to the mainstream western market. That means they're going to have to look to games like Fallout, GTA5, The Last of Us etc. when making design choices about this game - "how can we capture that market with this game?".
-
I didn't want an FF7 remake to fall victim to that - but because of Nomura stylistic choices, and his obsession with making the graphics (of an anime styled game...) more realistic, that's probably what's going to happen.
This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:
(http://i.cubeupload.com/7DgGqJ.jpg)
Gay Emo smoothly seamless skin Cloud
(http://i.cubeupload.com/26kR5Q.jpg)
Badass Anime Cloud
Why they simply can't just adapt the style of the original artworks and apply that to 3D models is beyond me...
-
Yeah, it's utterly pathetic. How can the original designers NOT see the issue there?
-
C'mon, it's obvious. They cater to the trends.
-
C'mon, it's obvious. They cater to the trends.
But that's not the reason why FF VII has gotten so popular in the first place.
If they have to make it all trendy and hip I don't really mind, except for the fact that they would have wasted a great opportunity to make the true-to-the-original remake fans have been waiting (and asking) for. Wasn't that the main reason why they even considered a remake in the first place?? Why don't they just make the game for the fans then...
Making everything 'hip' and 'cinematic' and adapting 'modern game standards' wouldn't ruin the original for me personally, just as Advent Children doesn't ruin FF VII for me. I haven't watched it to this day, neither do I care about it in the slightest. I can just play the original version with lot's of mods installed, and it's as awesome as ever.
BUT it would for sure get ripped apart by critics and fans alike, which as we know can have huge implications on the financial success of a game. I guess in the end the financial success and critical reception of FFXV will decide, whether they keep that cinematic approach, the fagotty emo characters, sh1tty acting, 'modern' gameplay idiosyncrasies, etc. or if they go a little more back to their roots...
-
I'll guarantee you that even if the game is an abomination it will get 9 or 10 from most big review companies. It's the fanbase that will render the ultimate judgement.
-
I'll guarantee you that even if the game is an abomination it will get 9 or 10 from most big review companies. It's the fanbase that will render the ultimate judgement.
If that's the case Square Enix can kiss my butt forever...
-
This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:
I just had a rather large debate over at thelifestream forums about the art-style of the remake and the compilation titles like Advent Children -
And most of them were of the opinion that AC and the compilation is very true to the original art-style *facepalm*
Seriously? I mean - anyone not blind and artistically speaking completely ignorant can see the obvious difference between the original anime-styled FF7 style and the semi-realistic style in the compilation and the remake. I mean, wtf.
Apart from concerns for mainstream appeal, it's because people like this exist, and because of their numbers, that we'll never get a true remake.
-
Oh, don't bother having a "debate" there... that's a big mistake. Haha. That forum is literally filled with trolls and weirdos. Their favourite past-time seems to be fawning over anything "canon" and talking as if the characters are real people.
Lifestream forum was the first place that really opened my eyes to the fact that I like FF7 for vastly different reasons than a lot of other people do.
Seriously, I can't stress enough how futile it is to debate there or expect some decency. They are mostly incapable of reasoning. I've just had another look at the forum and saw this (latest post):
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16989&page=3
That's the mentality we are talking about here. And, as you rightly point out, those people are the kind of gormless little brain-deads that create this problem, because they will buy anything, and praise ANYTHING, as long as it has graphics and a big brand name.
Anybody who wants to see why I gave in with 99% of forums, tune in (Hian's putting up a good fight):
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17049&page=44
-
It's going alright actually. It just took a very long time to get through, which didn't surprise me. In my experience people tend to know which of their interests are guilty pleasures of otherwise low-quality material and what isn't, however, they don't like to think about it, and they're not confident in their choices etc. so they get really defensive when people aim a criticism at the stuff they enjoy that they know is actually applicable.
Here's the thing - I watch Dragon Ball. I like Dragon Ball. However, Dragon Ball is generally poorly written, and most of the time it's poorly animated. I don't care though, because I just like it. I am not ashamed of that, nor do I need to justify to other people.
The compilation creates continuity issues with the original, it's incongruent with the art-style of the original, and it's often poorly written.
Those are just facts. People can still love. I don't mind, and to be fair, I enjoyed my first viewing of AC too, and I enjoyed playing CC for what it was.
The fact that people have such a strong reaction to having any of the above pointed out, to me, just demonstrates the insecurity issues these people suffer with. They can't be comfortable liking low-brow or low-quality art, and they feel that in a way, criticism of that art is a criticism of their taste and by extension, their person.
-
I just see it as rampant fanboyism to be honest. They don't want to believe, or admit, or even see that FF has gone down the tubes, and they will buy anything Square-enix churns out because of the name. The worst bit is, it's generally that type of person who is most vocal - So i continually see "10/10" reviews for games that do not come close.
At least there appears to be one or two there willing to reason; that's better than it used to be.
In any case, it really shouldn't need pointing out that the art style of the original game is completely different to AC. That's not an opinion; it's a fact.
-
lol, I broke the discussion apparently -
As for the OG graphics you can't honestly call those anime-esque, they were super blocky popeye-esqu models. And the pre-rendered backgrounds weren't cartoony either, they were very realistic looking and pretty to look at (which part of why the OG is still very fun to play even today). Like if FFVII had come out a few years later the in-game character models would have likely resembled those from FFVIII which the current graphical style is just a natural evolution off with the increase in technology.
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120103135624/finalfantasy/images/c/cf/Cloud-ffvii-field.png)
(http://squarehaven.com/games/ps/ff7/artwork/renders/cloud1.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Cloud_Strife.png)
*slow clap*
Yeah, nothing anime about it all. I'm sure that Nomura and the rest of the team were completely imagining this as abstractions for photo-realism.
Seriously...
-
This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:
Gay Emo smoothly seamless skin Cloud
Saying stuff like that is inflammatory and does not help get your point across, and only makes people not respect your opinions.
Besides, it can easily be applied to the depiction of Cloud you seem to like. Anime is considered "gay" (in the stupid/weird/lame sense) to a lot of people in America who are not into it, and his skin is "smoothly seamless" in that depiction as well. If his head was tilted down and his stance was a little more relaxed, you could easily label it as "emo" as well.
@hian: I read through your agruments on the lifestream and found the lack of acknowledgement of the differences in artistic styles to be frustrating. Two artists can definitely depict the same object in two totally different styles, while the object remains recognizable in both.
I also appreciated your acknowledgment of Catherine's art style (which is being used in Persona 5, even though the engine is not the same). I love that 3d anime look. It's clean, colorful, and emphasizes everything it needs to in order to set the mood or tone.
On top of that, I wish more developers would find ways to implement different art styles if for no other reason but to reduce costs. Games could have a lot more resources going into the story and gameplay if there wasn't so much resources invested into trying to make everything extremely detailed and "realistic". Ni No Kuni, Catherine, and the upcoming Dragon Quest 11 are all gorgeous games, even if they are not trying to be realistic. Not only that but if everyone strives for "realism" there won't be any variety in modern games.
Nier (a game I love btw) is horribly ugly because it tries to be "realistic" and obviously did not have the budget for it. Star Ocean is probably the worst offender in my opinion (SO4 and seems to be the same with SO5). Star Ocean's characters look more like dolls because of their weirdly high detailed textures, lighting, and environments, while retaining the physical anatomy of anime characters. It actually creeps me out to some extent when I view screenshots of the games.
FFXV, in my opinion, does not look bad or out of place with its art style. I don't think its bad, and since it was conceived to look that way from the opening trailer, it is faithful to creator's intentions, which I think is important.
With FF7 Advent Children on the other hand, I can understand hian's points about the art style not being true to the original. If I was to have my way, I would like the game to have an art style similar to P5 or Catherine, and with Cloud looking similar to his KH1 appearance (minus his theft of Vincent's cape, gauntlet, and wing). I honestly think an art-style similar to Devil May Cry 4 might actually work even better, as it strikes a great balance between anime and gritty detail.
I don't like that all of SE's games are shaping to have the same art style. 6 looked vastly different than 7 which looked different than 8 which looked different than 9 which looked different than 10, which looked different than 12, which looked different than 13. Now, FF7AC, 13, 15, and 7's remake all have similar artstyles, and it is logical to assume future games will as well (if Agni's Philosophy demos are anything to go by). I loved that each game felt like a different world, and having a similar art style that is becoming more and more "realistic" is taking away from that.
An interesting thing to note also is that, while each of those games listed above had different art styles, FF8-FF13 (with possibly the exclusion of 9) had a similar art style in their FMV sequences. It's almost as if SE is obsessed with making the game and CG indistinguishable, and they probably view the new art styles as superior simply because of the greater technology needed to render it. FFXV's Dawn trailer was showing off that cutscenes rendered in game are very comparable to that of SE's FMVs, especially ones from older games. I remember my friends and I would dream and wonder "what if the entire game looked as good as that cutscene" and that seems to be SE's goal they are trying to achieve.
However, despite all of that, I think that the story and tone of the game is more important than the art style, which I think can be preserved regardless of the art style. Metal Gear Solid 4 is a very realistic looking game, and yet was also very strange and charming. From playing that game I know I wouldn't hold too much of a grudge against SE for having the art style they seem to be striving for with the remake of 7, as long as the story elements (even the really weird and charming ones) remain the same. I don't care if its absurd with the art style, I don't care if its not realistic, those are the things I NEED to have or I simply won't enjoy the game.
-
Absolutely agree with you guys, I simply loved the anime-style of the original. I've always imagined that in a remake, the field models of the characters would look just like this:
(http://oi61.tinypic.com/142hqfk.jpg)
(http://oi61.tinypic.com/160prw7.jpg)
(http://oi58.tinypic.com/ndxxf.jpg)
(http://oi62.tinypic.com/2z4jm9e.jpg)
Just the characters from the original's FMVs, but only polished in HD (and with no further changes). Sadly, that isn't going to happen. That's especially irritating when considering that Nomura himself designed the characters of the original in the first place! By choosing a vastly different graphics style now, he is more or less betraying his own work. The realistic approach just doesn't seem to "fit" with the world of FF7, at least not for me.
-
Well the Character do need a redesign. But I wouldn't jump into the realistic direction.
Personally I would have loved it, if they had developed a new Gears engine for this age for all their PSX games. They would keep this way the original experience and have a potent engine to expand the game. Also they don't have the problem to fail on too high expectation of the fans (currently it seems that they try to lower them with crazy ideas). If they would have putt the game to FF9's standard (story and gamplay wise) they could have made the game timeless.
However as long they don't pull in any stupid interface decisions (FF12 has this blue ring which seems to pipi on the enemies, DQIX has a this strange blue arrow when a characters attack an enemy and FF7 CC says all the time 'Activate Combat Mode') which always reminds you that you play a game and destroys this way the immersion of the game, I think we could get a good FF7 remake which, however, isn't the game we all want.
-
Also, just what planet is that guy on? Cait Sith as a robot cat is already pretty stupid.. but to say the big white mog doesn't make it look even more ridiculous is so inaccurate I wonder how he can believe that?
At least he/she is conceding that Cait is unrealistic. I've actually had people from there telling me how "It's just a game" "It's a fiction, so it doesn't matter" and also that he's just as realistic as any other character. Come on.
I disagree with you on Holy, though, Hian. The original game says that humanity will be judged. Red XIII is not a human. The implication at the end of FF7 is either that Midgar is abandoned or that humanity has been taken out. It's left up to our imagination :)
-
Absolutely agree with you guys, I simply loved the anime-style of the original. I've always imagined that in a remake, the field models of the characters would look just like this:
Just the characters from the original's FMVs, but only polished in HD (and with no further changes). Sadly, that isn't going to happen. That's especially irritating when considering that Nomura himself designed the characters of the original in the first place! By choosing a vastly different graphics style now, he is more or less betraying his own work. The realistic approach just doesn't seem to "fit" with the world of FF7, at least not for me.
A agree, but I wouldn't go as far as directly adapting those models since they, although they are CG models which were for the time quite detailed, still are not up to modern quality 3D standards (I'm obviously not talking about the art style) as you can see with Sephiroths neck, visible polygons everywhere which will be even more noticable in HD, visible bone joints, overall lack of detail, but maybe that's what you meant by polishing them in HD.
If they used those models (how they appeared in the ending sequence) as a basis, and then got them to look closer to the original character concept art maybe using a cel-shaded approach, THAT would be the perfect art style for me.
-
I don't think anything needed changing style wise. I would have been happy with 2d pre-rendered from 3d complete update with new upgraded models (like we do here at Qhimm, but they'd do it better). I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't be the only one who is gonna be disappointed when this remake, supposedly aimed at the long time fans, turns out to be aimed at a completely different audience and sticks two fingers up at me for being a "dinosaur".
I on the other hand think that the anime-esqueness/cartoonyness of the in-game battle models was mostly a result of the limited technology at the time.
Can someone please explain to this person that FF8 and 9 are totally different in style to FF7, AND TO EACH OTHER; they all had the SAME limitations. The FMV are also not limited the same way and were STILL stylistically different. What is not to get here? Why are people over there so separated from reality? It's like some kind of crazy bubble.
-
I don't think anything needed changing style wise. I would have been happy with 2d pre-rendered from 3d complete update with new upgraded models (like we do here at Qhimm, but they'd do it better). I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't be the only one who is gonna be disappointed when this remake, supposedly aimed at the long time fans, turns out to be aimed at a completely different audience and sticks two fingers up at me for being a "dinosaur".
I'm not sure I'd been completely happy with the 3D models on a 2D pre-rendered set-up, when the new systems a remake would run on now have the capability of delivering a complete 3D experience with the same style as the original if they just took the time and effort.
I wouldn't be dissatisfied necessarily, as it would still be better than the original - but I'd consider it a bit on the lazy side, and a missed opportunity to do something more with the game.
Can someone please explain to this person that FF8 and 9 are totally different in style to FF7, AND TO EACH OTHER; they all had the SAME limitations. The FMV are also not limited the same way and were STILL stylistically different. What is not to get here? Why are people over there so separated from reality? It's like some kind of crazy bubble.
This is not entirely true. FF7 came out so early in the PSX life-cycle that it's naturally to assume that the devs would have had less experience developing for it, and therefore be much worse off when it comes to optimalizing the structure of the game for the system.
It's probably the case that their lack of experience made it difficult or impossible for them to deliver the same quality as we see in later Squaresoft titles.
However, this argument doesn't really work for the style of the game for several reasons -
- Resident Evil one was a game with pre-rendered backgrounds, realistically styled models and voice-acting, released an entire year before FF7. If they could do this, Squaresoft certainly could, and since Squaresoft ended up doing just this with FF8, it's more reasonable to assume that SS did a conscious style to make FF7 in a specific style for artistic reasons. The lack of things like the sound of footsteps, higher polygon-count models with more detailed design, and higher quality music are some things that probably didn't make it because it was their first-time PSX project.
However, to presume that they would have ditched the anime style if they just had more experience is silly. It's more reasonable to assume the models would instead look, graphically speaking, like what you see in the final encounter of the game.
- The FF7 battle models are clearly made to mimic Nomura's art-work. While the chibi-models might have been made to clear up system power, the chibi models are clearly abstractions for how the characters are suppose to look given the look of the battle-models.
- To pretend as if the entire style of FF7 was due to limitations opposed on the devs, when the devs clearly could have opted for a different visual style in either case, is just absurd. There is nothing inherent to the graphical set-up (low polygon count and blocky, smaller field models) that rules out a more realistic character design (smaller eyes, less gravity defying hair, more subdued colors).
The FF6 characters, despite the even bigger graphical limitations of the SNES, based on the character portraits, clearly aimed for a more realistic style. Their faces are drawn with normal proportions.
My personal theory is that they went with the chibi figures as a stylistic homage to earlier titles in order to make older fans feel more at home with the game. After all, every game before it had featured chibi characters.
I disagree with you on Holy, though, Hian. The original game says that humanity will be judged. Red XIII is not a human. The implication at the end of FF7 is either that Midgar is abandoned or that humanity has been taken out. It's left up to our imagination :)
Where does it say that though? I thought that information was just presented as conjecture on Bugenhagen's part - A maybe.
My point was primarily that it would be rather bad writing if humanity had been wiped out.
If Holy can distinguish between human's and Nanaki's breed, then it begs the question what standard Holy judges by.
If it judges by what the species as a whole is doing to the planet at the moment, then that completely breaks with the concept just judgement.
Why would humans in Cosmo Canyon living in peace and harmony with nature be killed off together with the people of Midgar?
If it judges on princple - that is to say what a species is capable of doing to the planet - then I would suppose that any conscious creature with potential for destructive behavior (Nanaki included) would get killed off.
But it's pointless to focus on that - I think it's pretty clear for various reasons that Holy doesn't kill off anyone.
1.) Holy wasn't able to even stop meteor by itself. Life-stream stopped meteor. I find it extremely unlikely that Holy, which by any standard, would fizzle out trying to stop the meteor by itself, would somehow have enough energy left in it after having stopped meteor with the help of life-stream, to then start flowing across the entirety of the world to kill of all the humans.
2.) Holy was clearly local. The spell erupted out of North Crater, headed straight for Midgar, and and hardly covered the ground the meteor was supposed to hit. It didn't cover the world like life-stream did. If people were making the argument that the world sucked up all the life of the living things to add to the power of the life-stream for the sake of stopping the meteor, that's something I could be on board with, but Holy? Nah.
3.) Holy breaks out of North Crater, passes directly by Cloud and Co in Highwind, and while it nearly tears Highwind apart, it doesn't actually kill them, which I would suppose it would do if it was also directed to kill humans.
4.) The fact that life-stream breaks out to save the world, and by extension, humanity, seems to imply forgiveness, which would be consistent with the themes of the game in total.
I really don't think FF7 left this ambiguous.
I only think it felt that way to a lot of young and impressionable gamers who weren't used to open endings, nor had enough experience to pick up on narrative clues like the one above that are common in literature and movies etc. but up until that point (FF7) had not really been normal or popular in video-games.
-
Bugenhagen explains it to Nanaki. He explains that when Holy arrives, it will attack anything that it deems an enemy to the planet, including humans. He wonders how humans will be judged. You can argue that Holy was never allowed to get started, or you coiuld argue that it was (and that it ended the human race). The ending is still open to interpretation. I always saw the ending in terms of Mako being abandoned, tbh.
-
Bugenhagen explains it to Nanaki. He explains that when Holy arrives, it will attack anything that it deems an enemy to the planet, including humans. He wonders how humans will be judged. You can argue that Holy was never allowed to get started, or you coiuld argue that it was (and that it ended the human race). The ending is still open to interpretation. I always saw the ending in terms of Mako being abandoned, tbh.
Explicitly, Holy was started and failed though - Holy was held back in North Crater, and released once Sephiroth was defeated. The plot and the last FMV both states and shows this pretty clearly.
Holy was, a wholly (stupid pun is stupid) underwhelming spell. It clearly couldn't even stop meteor, and it shows in the last cut-scene. There is nothing to suggest that there was any more to Holy than what is shown in the last FMV, so I don't think it's good argument.
Could the case be made? Maybe. I still don't think we're actually supposed to be thinking along those lines when you consider all the plot points I just mentioned.
-
I wouldn't use the FMV as a an argument, really... the FMV really was limited by budget and design. Even the way Meteor falls is stupid since it was supposed to crash land (that's what Aerith says it will do, and what a meteor DOES do), not hover there like an idiot creating whirlwinds over a major city, like it has some sort of brain. The FMV dialogue states that Holy was too late to stop Meteor, but you can see when the Lifestream helps, Holy is still there attacking it.
The ending is up for interpretation either way imho. The main part of the game is Bugenhagen saying that Holy will make all threats disappear, including humans if need be. I just think the writers didn't really do enough with the ending to tie it up in a more logical fashion.
-
There really is a paucity of info on Holy, grepping the main text all we can say is:
white1:
- Holy is a last resort for defending the Planet.
- Holy must be activated using the White Materia and by praying to the Planet.
- Holy destroys all that the Planet considers evil.
- Holy glows when activated.
(The Ancients, via Bugenhagen)
fship_25:
- Sephiroth must be defeated in order to release Holy (Cloud)
lastmap:
- One way or another, Holy has been activated, perhaps by Aerith (Cloud), perhaps by collective prayer (Barret).
las4_0
- It's up to the Planet to decide what to do with Holy (Cloud)
Ending:
- The Planet unleashes Holy
- If they don't get out of the Crater they're toast (Red)
- The Highwind is damaged by Holy as it tries to escape
- Midgar is heavily damaged if not destroyed by Meteor
- Holy arrives too late, Meteor is too close (Red)
- Holy is backfiring, putting the entire planet at risk (Red)
- Lifestream comes to save the day and defeats Meteor *with* Holy
- Fade to white
- Fast forward and we can see Midgar was never rebuilt
Conclusions:
It's hard to tell from the ending, but I get the impression that the Highwind "surfs" on top of Holy and avoids taking the full brunt. Red at least seems to think that being in the crater when Holy goes off means death.
Holy should have been enough, but it came too late. The video doesn't explain why Holy being too late matters, or why it would backfire and threaten the Planet, but I suppose we have to trust what Red says. The implication from Red is that Meteor was only a threat to Midgar until Holy showed up.
I can't wrap my head around this last part to be honest, how exactly is Holy backfiring? Why's the timing so important? So many questions...
-
I don' think the writers had much clue to be honest. The ending is pretty weak imho compared to what it could have been. I think they just got to the end and wanted it to be drawn out and "epic". So the established story kind of went into the trash can.
-
This is getting better and better. Just had a talk with a guy who thinks they're really going to create a 1:1 scale open world FF7 remake containing most of the content of the original, and that it's going to happen within a relatively decent time-frame because "derp derp, look at Xenoblade Chronciles X for Wii U".
Yeah let's just ignore that the only other open world rpg SE has going for it on a next gen system that even comes close in scope to FF7 is FF15, which even if you ignore the pre-luminous transition will have taken 4 years to develop, and with that being said, a lot of its systems, designs etc. being straight up ports and reworks from the Versus 13 build on the Crystal Tools.
Let's just ignore that FF15 has been stated to possibly be the game that AAA console future of the franchise is resting on, which hasn't even been released yet.
Let's just ignore the fact that SE has several other large-scale AAA projects on their hands as we speak.
Let's just ignore the fact that almost all large-scale Nomura projects the last decade has faced enormous set-backs.
And finally, let's just ignore the fact that the three last major FF games in the franchise have all been stream-lined shells of what former FF games used to be, not prominently featuring even half of the kind of content you find in FF7-9.
What are these people smoking?
Seriously, Tabata and Co are having difficulties figuring out how to implement air-ships in FF15 for Christ's sake, due to the nature of the set-up of the game and people think SE will be able to just pull a true, 1:1 scale HD state-of-the-art graphics rendition of FF7 keeping most of not all of the original content?
If we grant that they won't cut any significant content, make a 1:1 scale open world, and that this might take a little but less time because its happening on an unreal engine rather than the difficult to use Luminous (which still isn't something I'm willing to just assume), we're still looking at somewhere around 4 years under optimal circumstances, minus the one year they've already been working at it.
That means a projected 2018 release, missing the anniversary, and worst of all putting it in mid-development at the release of one of their most costly projects(FF15) before they even know whether that game is going to sell well or not - which is catastrophic when you consider the costs likely associated with the remake itself, costs which the company are probably covering on the assumption that 15 will be a success and provide enough profit to carry the franchise over to its next release.
Also as a side note - has it been confirmed that the project is being outsourced to CyberConnect2?
I mean, the official site links to CyberConnect2's FFVII G-Bike, they've expressed interest in remaking the game, and I've seen news also mirrored in their wikipedia article that states that they're working on a next-gen console which
"is a photo-realistic role playing game targeted at the international market and is built using Unreal Engine 4 involving physics-based rendering.",
which seems consistent with what we know about the FF7 remake.
This raises alarms a lot though, since CyberConnect2 only have two games under their belts working with the PS4 up until this point, non of which are RPGs, and the only RPGs they've made are the Hack. series which are by most accounts really mediocre. They're also, last time I checked, a relatively small studio compared to the SE in-house ones.
Ayways, anyone know anything of substance?
-
.
-
because its happening on an unreal engine rather than the difficult to use Luminous (which still isn't something I'm willing to just assume)
While they haven't said what engine they are using, they have already confirmed for certain they will not be using Luminous Engine (http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/10/gamescom-2015-final-fantasy-7-remake-wont-use-luminous-engine). So no need to assume :P
-
Reason why FF15 development was a mess was because first it was being developed for ps3, changed engine, then started developing for ps4, Luminous engine not up to snuff lot of technical problems, they dropped using this engine on Kingdom Hearts 3, they redone the whole game as they didn't like the Story etc.
Irrelevant. As I said, if we pretend the development started with the change in title and the porting to the Luminous engine, the game, by time of release will have been in development for 4 years, and that's with a lot of the systems, designs and resources having been worked on for several years prior.
In the case of the remake, everything is being made from scratch, which still punts it further back the line in terms of development than the point FF15 was at once the porting began back in 2012.
They haven't redone the entire game - A lot of the dev videos explicitly states that a lot of the work they're doing is porting the systems over from one engine to the other. Yes, they've re-written the story etc. but the leg-work of general designs, animations etc. seems to have carried over - and as anyone who works with game-development can vouch for, that's a much bigger part of development than say scripting story events or recording new dialogue.
I'm sure if they remake FF7 they would remake it also in Unreal Engine 4 just like they're doing with Kingdom Hearts 3, Dragon Quest XI. Would speed up development alot
Not really when you consider that the Unreal 4 Engine hasn't been used for a single open world, large scale RPG to date, and is a relatively new engine. Looking at Unreal 3 you won't find a single open world RPG for that either.
The only relatively noteworthy RPGs on I found for that engine (U3) was the Mass Effect series, and The Last Remnant.
That being said, Mass Effect 3 began development before Mass Effect 2 was even released giving it a development window of 3+ years despite being developed on the same engine as the 2 previous games by the same company.
The Last Remnant which is short, linear and not even close to being in the same camp as larger open world RPGs, still had a development cycle of around 2 years.
So, regardless of whether it's in-house or over at CyberConnect2, we're looking at a team working with a new engine, producing a type of game the engine isn't necessarily well-adapted to making, so it while it may be faster work than on the Luminous you have to take that into account, pluss the fact that they'll be making all the resources and systems for the game from scratch this time around, unlike FF15.
As I said - unless we're looking at really drastic changes and content cuts, this game isn't going to come out a couple of years, and letting the remake be stuck in production for 3+ years granted the gaming climate in Japan and the economical situation of SE is very unlikely.
It might be uncomfortable to think about, but it's getting more and more probably that what we're looking at here is a stream-lined, action-oriented release, where the predominant portion of the game-play and presentation will be more similar to that of the 13 trilogy than that of FF15, or earlier FF games.
While they haven't said what engine they are using, they have already confirmed for certain they will not be using Luminous Engine (http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/10/gamescom-2015-final-fantasy-7-remake-wont-use-luminous-engine). So no need to assume :P
That's not what I meant by that statement - I meant that I am not willing to assume that it's necessarily more difficult for SE to work with the luminous engine in producing open-world RPGs, than for instance the Unreal 4 engine.
Since most games on Unreal 3/4 tend to be action/adventure/shooters, not RPGs, it might very well be the case that making an open world RPG on Unreal is complicated and time-consuming, maybe even more so than working on the Luminous engine which was designed expressly for that purpose.