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Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: 90° on 2010-09-09 19:11:00
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The international outcry over a small Florida congregation’s plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11 intensified on Thursday, drawing vocal condemnations from world leaders and touching off angry protests in corners of the Muslim world.
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Although some protests in Afghanistan and Pakistan rippled with scenes of burning American flags, the outrage in the streets seemed largely isolated. Officials in Muslim countries urged restraint, seeking to head off any violent reactions if the Florida church goes ahead with its plans to set fire to several copies of the Koran on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks this Saturday.
Meanwhile, President Obama joined a litany of high-ranking American officials to condemn the Koran burning, saying that the act, amplified by a global media, could put American troops at risk and fan anger against the United States. Mr. Obama called the planned event “a destructive act” and said it would be a “recruitment bonanza for Al Qaeda.”
-Article- (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/world/10react.html?partner=rss&emc=rss)
Is it just me, or does replacing one kind of intolerance with another result in no positive outcome? ::)
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Is it just me, or does replacing one kind of intolerance with another result in no positive outcome? ::)
It's just you. This seems to be causing lulz, which is a very positive outcome.
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It's an outrageous decision. It's people letting their emotions take over. The government gives churches way too much leniency. The Church can burn historical text? and blame the death of soldiers on homosexuals? and still be a center of Enlightenment?
I hate saying this, because I don't have a religion and it makes me seem like a supremest, but these churches need to be disbanded, or made an example of. We're currently sending a message that's telling people "Freedom of Religion means as long as you're part of a church, you can do whatever you want aside from murder."
That's a general statement but you get my point.
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These right-winged Evangelical Christians in the US really aren't that far removed from being just as bad as the fundamentalist Muslims. There's more than one type of it (fundamentalism).
IMO - They are both remnants of a bronze-age mythology, and are no longer needed in a modern world.
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I agree with the opinion of the article writer. This would increase the chances of Americans as targets of extremist violence.
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whatever, the Muslims need to just chill out. The only reason the books are being threatened is because they know it will get a rise out of the Muslim communities. If Muslims really wanted to get over on them, they need to shrug it off then go burn a bunch of bibles. Problem solved, and nobody is left out in the cold.
either way, people put way to much stock in the printed material. Its not an original copy, and it does not contain any "Divine" elements that cannot be found in another copy. People simply have too much time on their hands, they have nothing better to do than fight.
lee
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It's true that many people do give the impression that you can do anything as long as you say it's mandated by your religion, but this seems to be a case that would be legal even if it were done by atheists. I fully support people's right to burn books, especially "holy" books. That's not kow-towing to religion, it's freedom of expression.
By the way, the church can do all of those things if it wants, but it can't continue to call itself a centre of Enlightenment. Well, I suppose it can call itself that, but it would be like calling Tony Blair a humble, honest person.
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People simply have too much time on their hands, they have nothing better to do than fight.
Couldn't have said it better.
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It's not the act of burning that bothers me. It's the attitude that this church has while doing it. They're doing it solely to cause problems and "send a message" to Muslims that.....something. I don't even know what the message is. I'm a Christian and I'm appalled at this behavior. Nothing in the teaching of Jesus advocates war or hate. The whole message is based on love and acceptance and morons like that that think indiscriminately burning other people's sacred texts is a good thing (despite what is or isn't true about it) will not have my respect. It's just like the people preaching fire and brimstone on street corners about how bad the country is right now. That's not the message at all. The goal isn't to frighten people away from doing "bad" but winning them to want to be "good". The number of people who changed their lives from a statement like "You're living in sin" is far lower than the people who were told "You could be accepted and loved by everyone". This is clearly not what Florida is preaching these days.
They're also doing what they're blaming Muslims for: eliminating the infidels. Al-Qaida (or however you spell it) destroyed the symbol of global capitalism in the US because they thought it was a perversion. That's a twisted view on the Muslim faith.
Oh man, I don't even want to go any further into this. I'm just mad at hearing about what this one Florida congregation is planning.
Although some protests in Afghanistan and Pakistan rippled with scenes of burning American flags
This happens a lot lately. I hope they're not thinking Christianity and America are linked.
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You do realize State and Church have not been completely separated yet, right?
I can accept that America was founded on the Christian belief, and maybe it was good at the time. Now days, though, people's attitudes have changed. Now it seems that major religions are turning to "All who do not believe us are blasphemers."
FDITC1, I understand your view on Christianity, but there are so many different viewpoints in Christianity, It really isn't fair to lump them all into the same category anymore. There are the "Fire and Brimstone" preachers who will tell you, "If you do not accept the love of Jesus Christ into your heart, then you will spend an eternity an the lake of fire, with nothing but constant mental and physical torment to keep you company," and they DO kind of push people into becoming religion-pushers and over-judgmental.
Yet, as you say, none of these teachings promote violence between religions or people in general. It is not the Value of the Koran that makes me uncomfortable, as it as just as burning a Lord of the Rings novel: Pointless, what appalls me is the fact that they are breaking the rights of the constitution "The right to peacefully assemble," and yet the government wants to protect their "Freedom of Religion".
These same people who are burning the Koran are probably the same people that have a problem with a Mosque being built very close to Ground Zero. It's all pointless bickering.
What these people are doing is encouraging violence. If it is okay to burn their books, why not harass the people themselves? If that is okay, why not physically hurt them?
Damn the government for not immediately stopping this, although I see their reasons not to.
Most of all, damn the churches for acting so childish. They think they're doing justice, little do they know, they are passing judgments much to quick. If I believed in God and prayer. I would pray that they all get sent to the worst possible hell they can imagine for abusing their precious time in life with the act of discriminating other religions.
It's a free country (to an extent)
So they need to shut their mouths and just get on with the service.
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If they can obtain an open burning permit, I guess this is their right. And even as an Atheist, I believe it sends the wrong message to local Muslims.
Because burning books is something the intolerant usually do, there isn't a great history of book burners. Not many could look back and say, "That book burning was an intellectually stimulating event."
But if people want to go ahead, and join the company of the Nazis and Catholic Church...
It says that Christians (in America) are intolerant of Muslims, regardless of what their theological stance. That probably isn't a good message to send.
On the other hand... if someone wants to get a Twilight, or Harry Potter, book burnin' together. - yeehaa!
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These same people who are burning the Koran are probably the same people that have a problem with a Mosque being built very close to Ground Zero. It's all pointless bickering.
I don't even want to get into this one. I can't believe some people are so out of focus they could not possible believe that there were MUSLIMS within the towers when they collapsed. Along with Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Atheists, and undecided people. There were not one single group of people killed in that disaster, only Americans of many different races and beliefs. These "red-blooded Americans" are succeeding in making the rest of us look like bigots and assholes, all while believing they are doing the right think. Of course we may be giving them to much credit...it could all simply be a ploy to attract new extremists Christians to that church. And the government is encouraging the formation of more groups like this by keeping their mout shut. The government doesn't have to step in, but heads of state could at least stand up and scream disapproval. But that would hurt their polls next year, so no one rocks the boat and everyone gets voted in AGAIN next time...and nothing will change that time either...or the next...OUT THE INCUMBENTS!!!!
At what point did it become not okay to allow your neighbors to practice their beliefs and act how they want as long as they don't interfere with you...oh wait...it has never been like that. My bad....humans are the worst.
I am not an atheist, but i don't really believe in anything i've seen so far. Be nice to people and try to expect the best out of them. If people piss you off, just ignore them and find people who don't. My God doesn't live in any house, nor does he/she/it require my money, or my worship, and he/she/it likes everyone. My guy kick-started the universe and then just let it unfold, so i find it hard to believe he/she/it is so insecure they need my constant adoration ;-)
lee
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These same people who are burning the Koran are probably the same people that have a problem with a Mosque being built very close to Ground Zero. It's all pointless bickering.
I don't even want to get into this one. I can't believe some people are so out of focus they could not possible believe that there were MUSLIMS within the towers when they collapsed. Along with Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Atheists, and undecided people. There were not one single group of people killed in that disaster, only Americans of many different races and beliefs. These "red-blooded Americans" are succeeding in making the rest of us look like bigots and assholes, all while believing they are doing the right think. Of course we may be giving them to much credit...it could all simply be a ploy to attract new extremists Christians to that church. And the government is encouraging the formation of more groups like this by keeping their mout shut. The government doesn't have to step in, but heads of state could at least stand up and scream disapproval. But that would hurt their polls next year, so no one rocks the boat and everyone gets voted in AGAIN next time...and nothing will change that time either...or the next...OUT THE INCUMBENTS!!!!
At what point did it become not okay to allow your neighbors to practice their beliefs and act how they want as long as they don't interfere with you...oh wait...it has never been like that. My bad....humans are the worst.
I am not an atheist, but i don't really believe in anything i've seen so far. Be nice to people and try to expect the best out of them. If people piss you off, just ignore them and find people who don't. My God doesn't live in any house, nor does he/she/it require my money, or my worship, and he/she/it likes everyone. My guy kick-started the universe and then just let it unfold, so i find it hard to believe he/she/it is so insecure they need my constant adoration ;-)
lee
Made up religion pyrozen? You do realize you are sitting on a cash cow, dont you?
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I think it was a good idea. It has been called off now sadly. The Muslims and media like to portray Islam as a religion of peace but it is clear every time something like this happens that it is nothing but an intolerant and dangerous ideology.
I am no fan of any religion, I don't believe in any religion, though I was brought up Roman Catholic. It is all man made nonsense. The Muslims believe the Koran quite literally and are very strict in interpretations. The fact is, Christianity adapted and the bible is harmless compared to the War Diary that is the Koran. Muhammad was a war mongering man who devised a way to control the masses and get his own way, namely multiple wives, conquering, and having sex with 9 year old children (Aisha).
There is no ideology on earth as dangerous as Islam, it is the most dangerous threat to the world since Nazism. No wonder then that Mein Kampf sells so well in Turkey. The problem with Islam is Islam. The problem with Muslims is they follow a deadly and backward 6th century ideology and religion deserves no respect.
Islam and all forms of control need to be attacked and confronted head on, because dipping your head in the sand isn't going to work and this isn't going to go away.
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I compare it all to getting punched and retaliating by hitting their mother instead, burning the Koran would only serve to make things much worse.
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i like to think what the world would be like if everyone spent as much time trying to make each other happy as we do trying to make each other miserable....
something to ponder while taking a crap...
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I am not an atheist, but i don't really believe in anything i've seen so far. Be nice to people and try to expect the best out of them. If people piss you off, just ignore them and find people who don't. My God doesn't live in any house, nor does he/she/it require my money, or my worship, and he/she/it likes everyone. My guy kick-started the universe and then just let it unfold, so i find it hard to believe he/she/it is so insecure they need my constant adoration ;-)
A watch-maker theology, eh?
Made up religion pyrozen? You do realize you are sitting on a cash cow, dont you?
Scientology's been done. No one stupid enough to fall for another artificial religion remains.
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Lol. Organized religion is such a joke, but I guess we need it to keep the world population in check...
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No one stupid enough to fall for another artificial religion remains.
A watch-maker theology, eh?
you may want to rethink that statement....
also, the watch-maker theology was an interesting read, i had never heard of it before. I suppose i agree with some parts, but i certainly do not believe that the earth and its creatures were individually crafted purposefully. Like i said, a creator set off the big bang and stepped back, everything after that simply happened.
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*snip*
It's an interesting double standard that people who attack Christianity for being destructive cannot see what you have pointed out. They still carry out very barbaric sentences over there and honestly make Christianity look great. People who say that not all Islamic followers are violent need to flip through the Koran sometime and read up on how you are supposed to violently resist infidels. One can argue that a person need not follow every word of the Koran but let's face it - they are very loyal to their holy doctrine and everyone is being exposed to that suggestion.
I don't even need to point this out though, instead I ask one question: How much more would you condemn Christianity if it advocated violent rejection of all other religions? 'Nuff said.
I am agnostic, for the record.
"Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings."
I sometimes wonder if theological religion is nothing but a mass mental disorder brought about by the inevitability of death and the stress it created. Anything is easy to believe in desperation.
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I see religion as a form of control, it's a powerful thing and thus I and most of my family gave up on it years ago.
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*snip*
It's an interesting double standard that people who attack Christianity for being destructive cannot see what you have pointed out.
It is because there is this desire by a number of people to self hate. The number of times I have heard "Yes but Christianity is just as bad, what is the difference?" and pathetic attempts to compare the 2 books based on choice quotes from the old testament.
This guy does a better job than I ever could >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwA3jErg9Bc
The koran is not the bible. Islam is a much worse ideology. Anybody who has done any reasonable research knows the difference and know that we are facing a severe problem, especially in Europe with Islamification.
"Slay the unbeliever wherever you find them" - chapter 9 v5
The Koran names Jews , unbelievers and Christians by name.
http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Jews.Islam
It is a book of hate and racism, being afforded special status because it is a world religion. Perhaps if I get enough people believing Hitler is the messiah, I too can claim that Nazism deserves respect? Mein Kampf can be the bible.
In a nutshell there is no difference because both are ideologies based on hate. The people who try to compare Christianity and Islam are clueless, the people who try to claim Islam is peaceful are clueless or liars, and the people who claim religion deserves respect need mental evaluation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcm873G94jo&feature=fvw
"When we see Islamic societies, we see what that negative man did."
"Any doctrine that calls to kill those who do not believe in it, is not a religion."
"Islam is a political doctrine which imposes itself by force."
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The only reason the books are being threatened is because they know it will get a rise out of the Muslim communities.
Actually I think it's just because people love book burning bonfires. Harry Potter, comic books, all sorts of religious works... I think bumpkins just get bored and aren't imaginative enough to come up with a new pastime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning
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A statement that the Koran is a "racist" text is nothing new in religious material. The Koran is racist. The Bible is judgmental about homosexuals, and also about Atheists. The Bible claims that I (Shankifer), as an Atheist, do not exist. In fact I am truly just one of many incarnations of the Devil trying to sway people to my evil.
Anyone want to come join the dark side? ^.^
But overall, you find really harsh judgments in all religious texts.
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If I ever encountered someone wearing an "islam is evil" t-shirt walking down the street, I'd legit punch them square in their prejudice face. If they have the right to piss me off, why shouldn't I have the right to sock 'em one?
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If I ever encountered someone wearing an "islam is evil" t-shirt walking down the street, I'd legit punch them square in their prejudice face. If they have the right to piss me off, why shouldn't I have the right to sock 'em one?
Because the right to free speech is a fundamental right, and attacking someone for it means you aren't worthy to live in a free society. There is a difference between offending someone and assaulting someone. You would be rightly arrested and charged. The person wearing the shirt would not. And more to the point, Islam is evil by the things it overwhelmingly says- if we take evil to mean war, racism, legitamising sex with children, hatred to Jews, Christians and non-believers, inciting death, inciting murder et al.
You call it prejudice, but perhaps they did more research than you and your position is based on a lack of knowledge to what Islam is? If I was a scientist who ran around with "The Earth Revolves Around The Sun" Shirts in the past, I may have been locked up. Would you have been the person who was ready to sock me in the jaw because it went against what you knew and understood?
If you classify Nazism as evil then there can be no double standard here. Classifying an ideology as Religion does not exempt a hateful backward ideology from being a hateful backward ideology. Nazism is an evil ideology and would be even if it was made into a religion with Hitler as a prophet.
It seems to me that all one needs to do is make a crappy and dangerous set of values into a religious belief system, and people fall over themselves affording it a special status. Well, I call bullsh*t to that and in a few more decades, so will everyone else.
Criticising and protesting against religion is no different from criticising and protesting against a political party like the democrats or republicans. You have the right to attack it on a T shirt. You don't have the right to go round punching people in the face.
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Anyone want to come join the dark side?
Already there, no really, I'm putting Sith down on the next UK Census.
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I think it was a good idea. It has been called off now sadly. The Muslims and media like to portray Islam as a religion of peace but it is clear every time something like this happens that it is nothing but an intolerant and dangerous ideology.
One doesn't need to compare notes on religious scripture between the Christian Bible (regardless of canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon)), and the Koran, to realize they are no better than each other. The beliefs spawned by all of the Abrahamic teachings have lead to ignorance, and some of the worst atrocities in human history.
The only difference is that Christianity has been matured by human knowledge to the point of modernity, where Islam has not left the bronze age (though some try). Only the practitioners of Christianity have changed their views on the scripture, the book is still a hotbed of intolerance, and violent teachings. If one were to take the Bible literally, we'd all be moving back to the dark ages.
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That isn't true since Christian's mostly base their beliefs around the 4 gospels (and I have read all 4. There is nothing in them which is anywhere near as bad or frequent as what is contained in the Koran). This isn't the case with Muslims and Islam. The book is not structured the same way, and there are far more problems with the Koran. They are not "as bad as each other" at all.
If they were, Christians today would still be able to justify bombing people or sleeping with multiple wives. That stopped because the 4 gospels don't condone it. With Islam, the Koran has numerous quotes which create trouble. The very fact we STILL have a problem with Islam is testament to the differences.
If you look at the islamic world and all its barbarity and problems and then compare it to the western world, you see a polar opposite. Yes we have our problems, but they are nothing compared to that disease pit and unfortunately, Islam is at fault.
Churchill Wrote in 1899 after seeing it first hand:
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as
his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased
to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid
qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social
development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists
in the world.
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Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.
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That isn't true since Christian's mostly base their beliefs around the 4 gospels (and I have read all 4. There is nothing in them which is anywhere near as bad or frequent as what is contained in the Koran). This isn't the case with Muslims and Islam. The book is not structured the same way, and there are far more problems with the Koran. They are not "as bad as each other" at all.
By Christian Bible, I assume he includes the Old Testament, which certainly does have some horrific passages. Nonetheless, it is important to point out that two religions aren't necessarily equal just because both are "bad". There are different levels of bad, and the whole "x is bad, y is bad, therefore you shouldn't criticise x" fallacy that's going around nowadays is intellectually dishonesty motivated by political correctness.
Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.
With the exception of a few lone weirdos, people don't believe that the latter gives them laws to obey, nor do they kill in its name.
However, I do find it amusing that people around the world are fighting over an anthropomorphisation of the laws of physics. What would E=mc^2 think?
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oh yes I completely agree. Both should be criticised and rightly, but as you point out, people are trying to get out of this debate by using that fallacy. I am against all religion, I just happen to be against Islam more than the rest, and for good reason.
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Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.
(http://i.imgur.com/3Qupx.jpg)
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Hey, she's a virgin! That's her story and she's sticking to it. >:(
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Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.
LOL-ograph here
I find this hilarious.
Too bad there aren't as many pictures like this for all the other religions too, you know just to be fair. To criticize everyone justly in our jokes...
and of course to have serious lolz :P
On a serious note, I think it's another thing that goes to show how much of a grip Christianity has on society.
I heard a seriously awesome thought today and I figured this thread might like to get in on it.
Someone mentioned that instead of fighting about which religion is better, in the maybe-not-so-far future, the top religious argument will be between believers and non-believers.
I thought this was seriously interesting to think about.
I also wonder what it would be like (not supporting a bias here, just pondering) if the whole government as a whole did not have any religion.
I just wonder how many things would be changed.
and how many things like this Koran burning could be avoided (seeing as our government leans to protect christian churches still [little bit of bias there, but not too much. Hope you can handle it :P]) with an Atheist government.
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Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault. If not religion man would find another way to create trouble. Humans are the real problem.
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Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault. If not religion man would find another way to create trouble. Humans are the real problem.
True dat. :P
I told a bio teacher who asked "What is the best way to stop pollution" that the best way would simply be to just kill everyone, and then yourself ;D
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Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.
Why does everyone still insist on quoting images
I'm a christian, but... lol
Burning the qu'ran? (yeah. I spelled it wit respect lol)
It's indeed an evil book, but I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish. More flag burning and hatred towards the west?
Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault. If not religion man would find another way to create trouble. Humans are the real problem.
True dat. :-P
I told a bio teacher who asked "What is the best way to stop pollution" that the best way would simply be to just kill everyone, and then yourself :-D
Anyone willing to start? I say each country pick a straw, then nuke the shortest. Hopefully there will be many people there. ;-)
If population control is the means the achieve the goal, then Pol Pot and Hitler are one of our time's biggest heroes.
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Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.
With the exception of a few lone weirdos, people don't believe that the latter gives them laws to obey, nor do they kill in its name.
However, I do find it amusing that people around the world are fighting over an anthropomorphisation of the laws of physics. What would E=mc^2 think?
To clarify, I don't believe in God, but I don't really see the difference between an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, and the laws of physics. My reasoning is hard to articulate in a short space, but the gist is that I can't see how such a being could have volition without effecting it.
I should also remind people that the burning was aborted at the last minute. Thank Christ, so to speak, for common sense.
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Given the ridiculous intolerance and death threats from many Muslim countries over this, it will only be a matter of time before someone else does.
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One thing unnoticed here is that Christianity never was peacefull and civilized religion while Islam was considered such in the distant history. It was mainly Christian Church that made an enemy of the world from Muslims, it was Christians that plundered muslim lands for wealth and power. It wasn't peacefull organization untill that was only way to save their power by them. Sure you'll not hear it in church couse they all say pink stuff about their history only, but read some stuff about history of europe. How many countries were considered barbaric and got ultimatum to take baptism or be deleted from the map? For one I know my country was for sure.
It's Christian Church fault that islam fundamentalists gained power. All religions have fundamentalists but also have civilized and liberal people. It's pure luck "we" white people, europeans, americans stopped the dark and feudal rule of Church in the industrial age, with what's a big lol as this seems by history like opposite of liberalism but huge help of UK Monarhy. We stopped it, but we still have same fanatics among us like they - muslims have. It's just the proportions among those are different. We can be ateists, buddists, muslims, but if we live in "western" world, we all ballance out Christian Church to keep it off power, muslims living in islam countries doesn't have that. And all those wars about oil and other crap that our living is addicted from just make their fundamental side stronger.
All of this is a closed circle that will finish itself only with full destruction, but who gave "us" living in "western" world right to do it if it's "we" who are reason of that? All wars, all fights, all conflicts with islam world is only making stronger all fundamental powers and I mean at all sides. Nobody else noticed that Christian Church with all it's historic and present crap coming out isn't turning weaker, but gaining strenght lately? Why? Couse stupid people who are affraid of death we trully are sentenced from birth belive in priests and some sacred mission of theirs to fight with islam.
In other words if you care about peace you live in it's best to just ignore all of that crap. Soo what if somebody burn some sacred books, they'll kill him for that, but if we don't care they'll not gain anything. I doubt any human would "TRULLY" care about some non known to him person dying in the other end in the world. Sure it's politically right to care and we often show it, but if you would care about every death in the world, you would need to spend your life counting deaths every second couse that's about how often humans die in the world and nobody gives a shit about much better humans that this priest or whoever he is. Let them all destroy their sacred books, and kill each other for that untill none fundamentalist stay in our world this or different way.
Especially that this isn't about religion anymore. All religions are good in their basis islam too, and all "sacred books" have their "sacred rights" about legal slavery and such things - christian bible too, for all black and asian christians it can be a shock, but originally "holy bible" put you below simple rodents, through not only as slaves could be taken for just being poor, it was actually a religion for "masters" not for simple people we can see that still seeing all gold palaces in current Watican. It all depends who rules over the church. And you surely can't say muslims are bad couse they're bad while your holy christian priest molest children in some of their local "palace". Shit happens, world isn't a pure and stright place from when humans started to organize in societys as the leader of each society will always plan his gain above his people and his people will only plan to replace the leader someday and soo another uselessly closed circle which creates politics and lowers every religion to mere political tool. If we care about all of that we should act in our own way not to stop one side, but both or "all" of them anyone dares to start a church which only sacred rule is to do anything to destroy other churches? XD And I don't say religion as this is something else than church, religion is our faith we all have right to have different, our beliefs we keep in our own place for our own "spiritual gain" of any sort. While church is just an organisation ment to gain power and wealth by their followers.
While if not, if we don't care a damn about, then why bother even thinking about it?
Hah I generally don't bother even thinking about religions and their churches, but if you all knew what crap happens this summer in my country with church messing in politics, and religious symbol in public - even goverment rule symbolical place - defended by force by a group of fanatics lead by fail politicians nobody dares to touch with all legal means possible, you could understand why a person that doesn't give a damn, can write lots about the topic^_^. It's kind of scarry for such stuff to happen in other "western" countries as I would have no place to run in case my country fails. IMHO if no media would catch such topics and spam us with it everyday nothing trully would happen after burning any sacred books even originals if any exist couse nobody would just know about it. I feel like throwing out my TV out of the window from lack of usefull informations coming from it, but damn I like watching Top Gear too much. xD
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Anyone willing to start? I say each country pick a straw, then nuke the shortest. Hopefully there will be many people there. ;-)
If population control is the means the achieve the goal, then Pol Pot and Hitler are one of our time's biggest heroes.
I say we introduce communism to Africa and the Indian subcontinent. It's done wonders for the birth rate in China and Eastern Europe.
I also wonder what it would be like (not supporting a bias here, just pondering) if the whole government as a whole did not have any religion.
I just wonder how many things would be changed.
and how many things like this Koran burning could be avoided (seeing as our government leans to protect christian churches still [little bit of bias there, but not too much. Hope you can handle it :P]) with an Atheist government.
Whoa, there! I agree that not being influenced by religion is necessary for a good government, but history has shown that it is nowhere near sufficient. There have been atheist governments only slightly less evil than the religious ones, and thanks to their countries' population and their superior technology and infrastructure, they've had a higher kill count.
No, secularism is just one step towards the creation of a good government.
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America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.
"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said
Errrr no, Mr. Obama. It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.
I am tired of all this appeasement and lying. They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace. :o
The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him. Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird! Double standards yet again.
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That "you have the right of free will" is, in this instance, just a pitiful excuse to do something unacceptable.
The right of freedom assumes that all human beings have some common sense - some extent of maturity. Which, sadly, is simply untrue.
The Koran holds deep spiritual significance for many people, as does the Bible. Burning them, just for the heck of agitation? There already seems to be a conflict between certain domains of the two religions, and all this is going to do is add fuel to the fire.
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This is a bit of a sensitive issue for me and I've shut up for long enough so far, so bear with me and please listen to my two cents:
America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.
"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said
Errrr no, Mr. Obama. It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.
I am tired of all this appeasement and lying. They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace. :o
The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him. Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird! Double standards yet again.
A) I agree with what you said earlier about religion being the offspring of man, and thusly flawed in and of itself
B) I believe the term you wanted was "there would have been no attack"
C) It's been my understanding that Al-Qaeda (which is a name often used all-encompassingly to multiple extremist factions in the middle east), while claiming their actions in the name of "Islam", act solely for the purpose of acquiring political power and invoking fear in the middle east. I'm quite certain that even if Islam never existed, corrupt, power-hungry factions like this would still exist and simply claim their actions in the name of some other convenient excuse.
Claiming that this violence would never have happened had the religion not existed contradicts the statement I said I agreed with in point A. Religion isn't the source of mankind's evil, it just has the potential to be a manifestation of it.
D) What would you propose Obama should have said? "f*ck Islam, those f*ckers, let's kill 'em all! F*ckin' A-Rabs! [/redneck accent]"? What he said was perfectly reasonable, and he wasn't trying to appease jack sh*t. He was trying [commendably] to prevent the unjustified antagonization of all Muslims in general by the American people, as it's that same type irrational antagonization and fear-mongering that led to acts of history like the Holy Crusades (all 9 of 'em), or the Spanish Inquisition, or the Holocaust. Not all Muslims are Al-Qaeda the same way that not all Christians are members of the KKK or the Nazi Party. To claim anything along those lines is just...f*cking retarded.
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Although religion is a creation of man, I think Seifer is right in what he says.
9/11 was a suicide bombing. Those people would not have killed themselves if they had not believed in a religion that promises death is not the end. Al-Qaeda needed religion for this. This brings me onto point two:
Religion has a unique power to enable evil. Firstly, religion (or the Abrahamic religions, at least) claims greater authority for its moral proclamations because it claims that its laws are made by God. They are completely unquestionable because they are from a perfect, omniscient being who not only is always right, but decides what it right according to his whims.
Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.
BTW, the fact that man created religion does not mean that man controls it. religion is like Frankenstein's monster: its creator has completely lost control of it and it does its own thing. Religion takes on a life of its own and comes from the unconscious instincts and assumptions of humans. In fact, there's a good case for saying that it isn't created by humans at all, or at least not by conscious humans. In any case, it can very well be said to be the source of much evil.
PS. I think Obama should have said "f*ck Islam" just for the lulz. He's pretty boring, so that would have livened things up.
I'd also be interested to see whether people would stop calling him a Muslim if he said that. I doubt it. ;D
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Yes I corrected the "their" to "there" elsewhere and forgot to do it here, not that it matters. I don't come on forums to make sure every word is perfect.
There is no question at all that the suicide bombers get their authority from the Koran. This is a fact. Not only does it instruct followers to kill unbelievers, it also instructs that great rewards of v.irgins await. So it is rewarding death as long as it is a "holy war", and unfortunately the Koran allows pretty much anything to be made a holy war if the target is not Islamic.
My problem with Obama was not that he and the others haven't come out and said "look Islam is a problem" which they should have done by now. In this particular episode, it was the fact that he told American's that it was un-American to offend, burn books etc. Which is sheer nonsense because it is a fundamental right in the American constitution. It was very hypocritical of him. To send FBI to the guys house and go so mad over it, only made him look completely out of touch with what the constitution allows and what freedom of expression is.
These guys aren't stupid, they know full well how bad and how dangerous Islam is, but they have cooked up this little game of appeasement in the hope that it will go away because they are afraid of what the result might be (Bush was just as bad, he came out with this whole Islam is peaceful crap too). Perhaps it will, but history has shown that these tactics seldom, if ever work; if they don't... well we are in for a lot of sh*t.
http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/1274/LTC-Allen-West-for-Congress.aspx
“Let me say this. And this – I don’t care about being popular or whatever. The first thing you got to do is you got to study and understand who you’re up against. And you must realize that this is not a religion that you’re fighting against. You’re fighting against a theo-political belief system and construct. You’re fighting against something that’s been doing this thing since 622 A.D. Since the 7th Century. Thirteen hundred and eighty-eight years.
You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim Army at the Battle of Tours in 732? You want to ask the Venetian fleet at Lepanto why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571? You want to ask the Christian, I mean the Germanic and Austrian Knights why they were fighting at the Gates of Vienna in 1683? You want to ask people what happened at Constantinople and why today it’s called Istanbul because they lost that fight in 1453.
You need to get into the Koran. You need to understand their precepts. You need to read the Surah. You need to read the Hadithe. And then you can really understand this is not a perversion. They are doing exactly what this book says…” (applause, lots of it)
Until the leadership of the United States is willing to say that, we will just keep on chasing our tails.
Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.
Nice to see someone gets this totally.
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C) [...]
D) [...]
^ Those.
REWARDS OF 72
Q. Where are my virgins?
A. Here are your raisins!
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Regarding most of the opinions in this thread, I'd reccomend everybody watches the BBC documentary The Power Of Nightmares.
Some parts are somewhat dry but it is by far one of the best take on the subject I've seen.
Here's a playlist where the first 6 videos were part 1 to 6 of the documentary :http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF86B79B4D1425E&playnext=1&v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF86B79B4D1425E&playnext=1&v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ)
Very interesting parallel betwen US and Islamic fundamentalism and how some individuals use it to push their views, emcompassing 9/11.
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Of course the BBC is a left wing organisation which is completely crippled by Political Correctness. Just because some people like to use it to peddle their agenda, does not make this any less real.
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Does anyone remember the 1990s, when leftists said the exact same thing, only this time they insisted the BBC was a tool of the Conservative Party? Remember that season they did asking if "White, working class Britain is disappearing"?
I like the idea that the Right is dreadfully underrepresented by the media, though.
The far Left and far Right have always been paranoid, though. Anyone who insists OMG U R SO BLIND ITS A CONSPIRACY ZOMFG!!! is usually not worth paying too much attention to.
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Of course the BBC is a left wing organisation which is completely crippled by Political Correctness. Just because some people like to use it to peddle their agenda, does not make this any less real.
Make what real ? Muslim extremists ?
The IRA was as bad as the Muslim extremists back in the day. Or probably the Crusaders. And most likely most of Africa's "revolutionary fighters". Most cultures, Western or otherwise, have their extremists. It's just a matter of how big does their voice resonate within the general population.
As to the documentary, was it biased ? Most likely to an extent. But almost everything I hear in North American media on "Al Qaeda" also is. Take a little bit from both sides and you're probably not far off from the truth.
I reccommend you watch the documentary if you haven't Seifer. It talks about American politics just as much as Middle East's politics. I think you'd find it interesting.
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I don't even wanna join this conversation. I learned quite a bit though.....
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The IRA was as bad as the Muslim extremists back in the day. Or probably the Crusaders. And most likely most of Africa's "revolutionary fighters". Most cultures, Western or otherwise, have their extremists. It's just a matter of how big does their voice resonate within the general population.
You have just spoken 2 big myths there. Firstly, the crusades came about BECAUSE of Islamic oppression and aggression. Secondly, the IRA did not blow itself up in suicide attacks, and did not have a war against UNBELIEVERS or Jews or Christians (which is what the Muhammad instructs his followers to do). Also, you may have noticed... the IRA are no longer terrorising people, and they never attacked world targets. The IRA is in no way comparable to Islamic problems. The IRA also didn't kill thousands upon thousands upon thousands since it was founded, unlike Islam. The IRA was not based on a religious book which brainwashes. It was a political struggle not a political AND religious struggle.
Islam rewards those who kill their targets in its afterlife. Thus there is no inhibition to Muslims whereas the IRA valued their own lives. Osama Bin Laden said it best "The USA loves life, we love death, that is the difference between us." You can't compare the ideology of IRA to the Koran.
I suggest you watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2ee4WzxV4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSlhxjM0TM8&feature=related
You are comparing chalk with cheese.
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[unsupported claims]
Ah, okay, it seems you don't actually know what you're talking about which actually relieves me quite a bit. You should take a course in religion or theology that requires you to read through a translated version of the Qu'ran (or at least parts of it) and break it down. The notion that it says in the Qu'ran that murderers are rewarded in the afterlife is equivalent to the notion that it says in the Bible that homosexuals go to hell. You understand that these interpretations seem to be the result of people trying to skew the meanings of passages to support their preconceived ideas once you actually take the time to study the text as opposed to taking what you hear at face value.
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[unsupported claims]
Ah, okay, it seems you don't actually know what you're talking about which actually relieves me quite a bit.
Congrats on being the first person in this debate to flame bait and take the argument to the person. :mrgreen: As for what you said, they aren't comparable at all.
"If you murder you will be cast into the fires of hell [by god]" is not the same as
“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
or as
Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."
The one in the bible is a punishment by god when you are dead, the one in the Koran is Muhammad instructing living followers to take up arms against non Muslims.
Are you really going to argue that they are the same thing? Do you think it is a coincidence that there are so many wars and civil wars where Islam is a large minority or a majority? Do you think it is a coincidence that the only world religion still killing people significantly (and nearly always) is Islam? Do you think it is pure coincidence?
Do you?
How many more years of Islamic trouble will convince you? Will it take a civil war or a terrorist attack on home soil every day? Will it take another 1000 years of trouble with this same religion before people realise that this religion is different because the Koran is different. That it is more dangerous because of how it instructs and the way it leaves little in these passages up to nice interpretations.
Islam is different. It always has been and if the Koran remains unchanged, it always will be. You can't make Mein Kampf a good book or Nazism a good ideology.
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I just want to correct u the qu'ran isn't written by mouhamad (pbuh) it is the saying of Allah u mistook it for haddith which is mouhamad's saying
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I just want to correct u the qu'ran isn't written by mouhamad (pbuh) it is the saying of Allah u mistook it for haddith which is mouhamad's saying
You are obviously a Muslim (hence the pbuh). The Koran is the doctrine set down by Muhammad which you believe is the word of Allah.
But it isn't. It is Mr. Muhammad who wrote the Koran. The koran is a book. It is a man made book. I am sorry to break this to you, but all religion is man made. There isn't a shred of credible testable proof that any of it is divine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an
Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed from God to Muhammad orally through the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) over a period of approximately twenty-three years, beginning in 610 CE, when he was forty, and concluding in 632 CE, the year of his death.[2][6][7] Muslims further believe that the Qur’an was memorized, recited and written down by Muhammad's companions after every revelation dictated by Muhammad.
Not that that even matters. The basics of this argument are that the Koran has many quotes telling followers what to do to non followers.