[FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]

[DLPB_]

When dealing with names, the spelling should be as near to the original language as possible.  In this case, Midgardsormr (Old Norse: Miðgarðsormr).  Although the city is named after Midgard, the creature itself has absolutely nothing to do with FF7's Midgar... and everything to do with the actual serpent. A confusing choice on the part of the game team, perhaps... But maybe they also wanted the player to see the connection.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr  They use Jörmungandr in some FFs.

The Japanese text (kana) matches the spelling.  It was 100% intended to be that way. Had they wanted "Serpent", they would have used Serpent, as they do for another enemy/move already.

See, the enemy Serpent:  サーペント (saapento)
The enemy Midgardsormr: ミドガルズオルム (midogaruzuorumu)

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%A8%E3%83%AB%E3%83%A0%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89

A localizer could choose to ignore this, of course, but I think that's a big mistake. It would be a bit like changing Murasame to Village Rain. Do you see?

[White Wind]

I understand Very fine
Thank you for explaining

edit: yes I see very well, proper nouns are what they are, and the beast is Midgardsormr and nothing else. That's the accurate and only way, indeed.

[DLPB_]

One thing I am mulling over is Longinus. Longinus is the name of the person, not his spear.  It's possible, maybe even likely, that they just made "Spear of Longinus" short.

The FF localizing team are deliberately avoiding this because of religious sensitivities... they name it "Spirit Lance" in FF7 and FF10.  But the lance is known as Spear of Destiny, Spear of Longinus, or just "Holy Lance".

In this case, Holy Lance may be more correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Lance

[DLPB_]

OK, I've decided I'm going to change it.

The options we have are:

1. Spear of Longinus
2. Holy Lance
3. Lancea Longini
4. Spear of Destiny
5. Keep it as Longinus

I prefer 3 because it's the weapon's actual name in Latin, but Holy Lance is more favourable to Western audience.  But any of these are good choices for the spear. Let's put it to a vote so I can gauge opinion.  And yeah, 4 sounds awesome

The Spear of Destiny, also known as the Holy Lance, is in Christian tradition the spear that the Roman soldier Longinus thrust into the side of Jesus (c. 6 B.C.E.–c. 30 C.E.) as he hung on the cross. ("Then came the soldiers and brake the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side and forthwith came out blood and water" [John 19: 32–34 KJV]). Christian knights discovered the Holy Lance at Antioch during the First Crusade in 1098. The sight of the sacred artifact in the Church of St. Peter so inspired the beleaguered Christian soldiers that they rallied and routed the Saracens from the city. From that time forth, according to legend, whoever claims the spear and solves its secret holds the destiny of the world in his hands for good or evil.

[insidious611]

Putting in a vote for 4.

[White Wind]

Wow that weapon in-game refers directly to the spear of the bible, I didn't know.

Haha yeah 4 is nice ^_^

Longinus would be its name IF it took its owner's or maker's name, à la Masamune, Murasame, and so on..  but that doesn't seem to be the case here, Wikipedia says Spear of Longinus, and in Latin Lancea Longini (literally Lance of Longinus). Yeah, "Longinus" doesn't fit.

Let's discuss..
Holy Lance seems to be the most common name for this biblic weapon.. that could be a good argument
but don't the kanas point towards Longinus ?.. then yeah, I would not be surprised at all that the intended then shortened name was Spear of Longinus
Lancea Longini.... for me, that is not like a proper noun, the item's proper noun, but just "Lance of Longinus" in the original language...

Because of the kanas, I would go with Spear of Longinus.

[White Wind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Longinus

I'll write down some of the better bits of it..

the Roman soldier who pierced Jesus in his side with a lance, the "Holy Lance" (lancea, as related in the Latin Vulgate Bible)

an old tradition does link the birthplace of Longinus with the small village of Lanciano, Samnite territory, in today's Abruzzo region of Central Italy

The name is probably Latinized from the Greek lonche (λόγχη), the word used for the lance mentioned in John 19:34. It first appears lettered on an illumination of the Crucifixion beside the figure of the soldier holding a spear, written, perhaps contemporaneously, in horizontal Greek letters, LOGINOS (ΛΟΓΙΝΟC)

The spear used is known as the Holy Lance, and more recently, especially in occult circles, as the "Spear of Destiny", (...) although neither the centurion nor the name "Longinus" were invoked in any surviving report. As the "Lance of Longinus", the spear figures in the legends of the Holy Grail.


So......
The name Longinus could be a derivative from "Lanciano", the guy's pretended birthplace. Or could probably come from the ancient Greek word used for that very weapon. And it could have appeared a good chunk later than year 33 AD. The term "Lance of Longinus" appeared only later in the Holy Grail legends.

"Spear of Destiny" seems to be a name that came out quite later.

And the weapon is the most commonly and frequently refered as the Holy Lance.


I'm really between Spear of Longinus (because of the kanas) and Holy Lance (because it refers directly to the weapon itself.. like, it sounds like the real name of the weapon.... but idk )

I need sleep x)
but
How would you phrase it ? Hey what was the name of the Spear of Longinus ? Yeaaah, the Holy Lance, that's it
or
What was the name of the Holy Lance ? yes the Spear of Longinus

going to bed xp

edit: I think I favour Holy Lance, I'mma change my vote.. and it's Cain Lunar weapon (lame, I know)

[DLPB_]

On reflection, I think I favour Holy Lance also.

[Ver Greeneyes]

Holy Lance sounds the most religiously neutral, even though it technically isn't. You could conceive of a religion in the FF7 universe, unrelated to Christianity, in which a holy lance played a particular role. So I think Holy Lance is both technically accurate (aside from the kana) and more in keeping with a world that doesn't particularly emphasize religious backgrounds.

[Luigi Brosse]

Favorite is 3, then 1, then 2.

[DLPB_]

I think when all's said and done, the basic choices we now have are down to:

1. Use Holy Lance
2. Use Spear/ Lance of Longinus as this was very likely what the developers wanted.
3. Stick to Longinus, as this is what the Japanese literally reads, and it's possible they wanted it to be named Longinus.  I find that doubtful really...

I think 2 may be a bit too verbose....  We may be stuck with 1.

[DLPB_]

The last troublesome dialogue is this:

Sephiroth
“Do not be concerned.
  This girl,too,will soon form
  part of the energy that flows
  around the planet”

Which I have tried to make natural with this

Sephiroth
“Do not despair.
  Your friend will soon be
  a part of the planet's energy.”

If you think you can make that work any better, give it a shot.

[obesebear]

Sephiroth
“Do not be concerned.
  This girl will soon be
  part of the energy that flows
  around the planet”

[DLPB_]

It's still a little clunky though as "flows around the planet"... it's too verbose imho and literal.

Also, I used "friend" because he again uses girl further down.  It's a liberty but it kinda sounds sephirothy.

The idea is that they shouldn't worry because Aerith will join with the energy and then become part of him.     In a twisted way, Sephiroth thinks that's some sort of salvation / consolation.  Hence why despair also works well.

[DLPB_]

Also, all linkbucks links are now in the process of being removed.  All downloads should be back before 09:00 GMT

[Salk]

I like your translation, DLPB.

As minor suggestion, I would remove "a" from "a part of the planet's energy" and keep everything else like you suggested. It does indeed sound sephirothy.

[DLPB_]

Ooooo, I didn't notice I could get rid of the a

[Melancholy]

Slowly working my way through, and I found another weird piece of text. In Wutai, after catching Yuffie and going with her to the basement to get your Materia, Cloud says this line:

"If you give it us now,
we'll drop the whole thing."

It's missing the 'to' in there, as in 'if you give it to us now'.

[DLPB_]

This has already been corrected, even though it is grammatically sound either way.  If I recall, it's a lot more common to omit the "to" in Britain.

[dkma841]

Alot of discussion about this retranslation at neogaf:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1047752&page=1

Edit: Desktop version link
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1047752

[DLPB_]

I see the nostalgia goggles are firmly in place with a lot there   Nearly all those arguments they are having would not be happening had the game been translated correctly from the start. A lot of people don't like to let go of something they grew up with, no matter how badly made it was.

That thread there epitomizes everything that's wrong with fanbase, imho... pages of argument about the name "Aerith", and that one has been OFFICIALLY changed.  God help me when they discover the others we have changed haha.

[Rekhaizen]

It's frustrating seeing them argue and speculate changes you may have made when there's a document outlining it all (which someone finally linked on the second last page or so). It's already explicit in the project information that you weren't taking any established "series canon" into account, yet they still complain. You even give an option to keep all that for crying out loud. It just boggles my mind, honestly.

It's nice to see there are some sane people there who are looking at Beacause objectively. A couple even playing through it!

And I can't believe the Aeris/Aerith debate is still even a thing these days...

[DLPB_]

It's primitive behaviour.  It goes right back to tribalism. It's why tradition lasts so long despite often being too outdated to be practical.  It's why sports take ages to change rules or make any beneficial changes.  It's why people support teams like they are a religion.  In fact, it's why religion exists at all.  And... it's why we have so many people so opposed to changes like a name in a computer game.  It depresses me. Of course, clearing up misconceptions helps.. for example, Aerith was created from the English word "Earth".  When you realize that is the origin, the "lisp" stupidity goes away. It's nothing to do with a lisp or anything else... it's just a name that was created from an English word.  And, for crying out loud, a name does not change the character.  Names is for tomb stones, baby.

Edit.

Also, I frequently see "Well, it is spelled Aerith, but pronounced correctly 'Aeris'".  No.  It isn't. For the reason I have just given and the nuances with Japanese.

[luksy]

The Aerith thing needs to die (hohoho), at this point I don't even care anymore, it's just bikeshedding. I wish more people were talking about the main dialogue, I counted 3, maybe 4 people who seem to be playing the game and they all seem fairly positive.

[DLPB_]

Even if one in ten people appreciates it, I think it's been worthwhile. It can get a bit annoying seeing so many people quibble over names (even officially recognized ones), but I think, in the end, most people will agree that our localization is a vast improvement over the old. It's up to each person whether they install it. No-one is forcing them.

I'd be far happier if the criticisms had examples and were constructive, rather than all this "AERITH!!  WHY!?".