Author Topic: [FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY) (Read 1265779 times)

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2150 on:** 2013-10-07 12:05:32 »

Exciting times!

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2151 on:** 2013-10-07 14:52:30 »

Aerith never met Elmina's husband anyway. He was sent off to Wutai and she met Aerith at the station waiting for his return. He died before he could return. Aerith then explains to Elmina that her husband has already returned to the planet. Elmina lived alone with Aerith.

However, thinking about it "Live with their parents" does not have to mean "both parents" it is how people speak when addressing numerous people. So it is still possible she is included in it. But I am unsure when Zax met Aerith...

I have always been confused by the Zax/Cloud chronology. Is this how it is:

1. Cloud goes to Join Soldier, but doesn't make it and ends up an ordinary soldier
2. Is assigned to the mission at Niblheim with Soldier Zax
3. Both capured by Hojo and experimented on (irradiated with Mako/Jenova)? Or did this come before / after
4. Escaped and travelled to Midgar
5. Zax shot dead, Cloud takes Buster Sword and is found by Tifa

Anyone got the complete and accurate list of what happens with year times?

Covarr · « **Reply #2152 on:** 2013-10-07 15:23:49 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2013-10-07 02:16:17

It's all down to Lex and Covarr now.

I'll try to power through as much as I can over the weekend. Depending on how much time I have, I may be able to get some done after work on weekdays, as well. I'm not sure how much there is total, but I think I can get my end of things done fairly quickly.

genesis063 · « **Reply #2153 on:** 2013-10-07 18:50:52 »

Hojo experimented on them when it was thought Sephiroth died when Cloud grabbed his sword lifted him and swung him over the rail into the Mako pit. Cloud fell unconscious and he along with Zack/Zax was taken away to the manshion. Then Zax/Zack finally got a plan to escape sometime after he came through and the process was some what completed.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2154 on:** 2013-10-07 18:57:00 »

Yeah but what happened then? Was Zax shot in Midgar right after that?

Was Cloud made into the problem he was by Hojo using the jenova cells on him in the mansion? before that he was a normal boy?

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2155 on:** 2013-10-07 19:05:32 »

It's kind of sad to hear that not even DLPB knows the answers to questions like this... If he doesn't, who does???

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2156 on:** 2013-10-07 19:09:06 »

Yeah it's very complicated. There are parts of that chronology that are hard to understand. Especially the times. Best we get this out of the way once and for all. It is practically the only thing I don't understand in FF7

It's the lack of exposition that does it. FF7 does not do a good job of wrapping up the loose ends for the player. Deliberately or otherwise.

genesis063 · « **Reply #2157 on:** 2013-10-07 19:13:59 »

Yes Cloud was normal before Sephiroth's supposed death and Zax was shot on the hill over looking Midgar. Cloud was practicing with swords however as was hinted in before crisis (I believe that was the phone game only released in Japan). I hope I answered you question good enough to fill in the holes for you. Excellent job on the mod and glad you kept up with it. By the way when I was reading the b**ches and gripes people where giving I couldn't help but lol in agreement when you stated how stupid it was.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2158 on:** 2013-10-07 19:16:21 »

So run down the chronology as you see it?

Remember Cloud meets Tifa at the station 7 years ago, and Niblheim burned down 5 years ago? So what's going on there? She talks about how his story didnt add up then... but that would have been before the experiments?

{TIFA}
“How long has it been?”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Five years.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“…”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“What's wrong?”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“It's been a REALLY long time.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“Actually,it had
been seven years.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You joined Soldier,
just like you wanted.”{NEW}
“Then quit after the
Sephiroth incident…”{NEW}
“…and became a
Jack of all trades.”

=============
{TIFA}
“Zax,Soldier…”
------------------------------
Old Man
“Young lady,do you know him?”
------------------------------
Old Woman
“He wrote to us six or seven years
ago,saying he had a girlfriend.
Could that have been you?”

Caledor · « **Reply #2159 on:** 2013-10-07 19:26:25 »

If I remember correctly Zack and Cloud spent 4 years in the basement of the Shinra mansion while being experimented by Hojo and then 9 months to reach Midgar, where Zack was shot. Cloud tells Tifa that 5 years passed because 4y and 9m is the time passed since their reunion in Midgar but she doesn't remember cause he was the infantryman, while he thinks she should, having replaced himself with Zack in his mind

genesis063 · « **Reply #2160 on:** 2013-10-07 19:30:12 »

^ but I'll post this anyway as mine I think is a little more indepth.
Tifa met Cloud shortly after Zax got shot and Cloud went into Midgar alone having his mind tampered with by Sephiroth. When they finally meet again Tifa didn't know that Cloud was in the normal infantry uniform. Thanks to Sephiroth though he thinks he is Zax and he met her again five years ago. However it was actually seven years to Tifa as the last time she has seen him is most likely after he left for the city. If I missed anything or I need to say it differently let me know.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2161 on:** 2013-10-07 19:31:57 »

You mean reunion in Niblheim,caledor...?

Also, not sure Sep did anything. (I am not using the other titles remember, only FF7 because it was intended to be a standalone game). Cloud states he created the illusion. It wasn't sep.

Even though this is using the titles, it will prob explain the original chronology.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII/Timeline

Can someone look through that, peel away the crap (the sequels and prequels) and present the original game time line?

genesis063 · « **Reply #2162 on:** 2013-10-07 19:44:36 »

Ah but remember a piece of Sephiroth was inside Cloud that was what the battle after Safer was him trying to destroy his mind and claim dominance over his body. It is also heavily implied who do you think was talking inside his head the whole time. It wasn't Jenova it was actually Sephiroth calling him to come to him. This is also supported by Hojo as when he asked him the question at costa del sole when he said ever felt like you where being called to somewhere (or something of that nature). Also Sephiroth even told him he was a puppet meaning he is the one pulling his strings also supported when he was trying to make Cloud kill Aerith. However he managed to restrain himself thanks to his companions snapping him back to reality. When his original plan failed thats when Sephiroth took action.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2163 on:** 2013-10-07 19:46:18 »

The person calling to him in his head was actually Cloud. Himself. Asking him to wake up... as far as we can see anyway. Hence "This is more than a reactor " "WAKE UP!"

It is also clearer when he mentions the fall of the bridge. It is himself talking "You got away with it that time. Just grazed your knees". Later he tells the story of the bridge and says the same thing.,

Sephiroth is not inside Cloud's head.

The reason Hojo asks him if he feels compelled to go to a certain place is because Jenova cells heavily influence those with them to go to the Reunion. Like the guys in cloaks. Sephiroth through Jenova are kind of summoning him, but it is the cells themselves that make this possible. I don't think Sep is the one talking to him.

Can that be explained?

From what the dialogue suggests, Cloud is in conflict with his real self during the game, and talks to himself. Is there any confirmation on this?

genesis063 · « **Reply #2164 on:** 2013-10-07 19:52:21 »

I actually found evidence it is a comdination of how his idea past came to be. I actually beg to differ as Jenova's dialog is in the same background as is the other times it is used which is also being controlled by Sephiroth. Plus this contradicts the first time this is done namely in the reactor. The voice tells him that is isn't a normal reactor which is something the real Cloud does not know. I found it on the wiki but Sephiroth does have something to do with his mind and what he thinks it is.

In fact, these events did not occur as Cloud describes; rather, they are an amalgamation of Cloud's actual past (as a member of the Shinra army who failed to enter SOLDIER) along with his friend Zack Fair's own past, mixed with memories gleaned from Tifa's mind, created out of a combination of shame, Jenova cells and manipulation by Sephiroth

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2165 on:** 2013-10-07 19:54:38 »

The actual translation does not say "normal reactor" (the original game translation is wrong), it says lit something like "Wake up. This is more than a reactor remember?", and is referring to the one at Nibl which was used for experiments and the Jenova project. Cloud is remembering what happened at Nibl. It's Cloud's subconscious that you see during the game, that is conflicting with the fake memories.

genesis063 · « **Reply #2166 on:** 2013-10-07 19:57:09 »

gotcha also here is a line of dialoge that Cloud states himself that Sephiroth is messing with his memories through Jenova cells exerting contol over him to some degree. Cloud: You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me.

Unless this to is said wrong then disregard but if not here it is if it helps.

Ver Greeneyes · « **Reply #2167 on:** 2013-10-07 19:57:26 »

I think Sephiroth is able to mess with Cloud and control him to the extent that he does because he controls Jenova's cells (not just the ones in his own body, but all the ones he comes within range of). Jenova's cells are also inside Cloud, and so Sephiroth is able to able to influence him and take advantage of his confused state (which in and of itself was created by the power struggle between Cloud and the cells infused into him).

genesis063 · « **Reply #2168 on:** 2013-10-07 19:58:18 »

That's it in a nutshell.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2169 on:** 2013-10-07 20:00:12 »

Quote from: genesis063 on 2013-10-07 19:57:09

gotcha also here is a line of dialoge that Cloud states himself that Sephiroth is messing with his memories through Jenova cells exerting contol over him to some degree. Cloud: You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me.

Unless this to is said wrong then disregard but if not here it is if it helps.

Yeah, I guess that is right. But... Sephiroth's will is what helped create the OLD cloud (yeah confused him is the better word). The person during the game is trying to make Cloud remember who he really is, and is the subconscious (which is why he is usually asleep when it happens and so forth). It is the REAL cloud trying to get through.

{CLOUD}
“For better or worse,only the
strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}
“This is nothing to do with
Jenova's Reunion,either.”{NEW}
“It's just that if the process is used
on someone who's weak-willed,
like me,they lose themselves.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“A man born from Jenova
cells,Sephiroth's will,and
his own weaknesses.”{NEW}
“That's… the {CLOUD}
that you all knew.”

If you look through the game, every time the subconscious is speaking, it's trying to get Cloud to understand who he is. At the reactor it is trying to make him remember what happened at Nibl, at church it is making him remember the bridge, at Junon it is making him realise that his story doesn't add up and to ask Tifa about it. And at the honeybee manor it is asking him to sort his head out, and that he has issues.

It is always Cloud. Also, at the Honeybee Manor he actually sees himself (it's obviously symbolic for US and he is not lit seeing a ghost) before the dialogue.

I can't remember other places he is at. The shame of it is, this nuance to the storyline was missed because of a bad translation job.

genesis063 · « **Reply #2170 on:** 2013-10-07 20:20:06 »

I remember the dialoge being what she was doing before the burning of Nibelhiem I take it this is translated wrong too? That sounds about right then it was the way they kind of had it at first made it seem like it was the real Cloud then Sephiroth realizing his will wasn't holding out over Cloud so he said something to try to stop it. It was stated though that Sephiroth was controlling everyone with his will who had Jenova cells as apparent when I believe Hojo stated such and when Cloud handed over the Black Materia to Sephiroth. Sephiroth does have a something to do with his mind as he tried to destroy Cloud's own mind and take over his body. This is also supported when he callaspes after the Safer fight and stated that he is laughing.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2171 on:** 2013-10-07 20:30:43 »

I am guessing that that control is greater when he is nearby. Certainly the times from the flash back are just the real cloud trying to break through the illusion that has been created.

Which Niblheim dialogue? I'll check.

genesis063 · « **Reply #2172 on:** 2013-10-07 20:33:49 »

was a little confused when you said which dialoge. The one about Hojo was in the same place where Cloud handed over the Black Materia again. The place where the weapons woke up if i'm not mistaken in the northern cave before the barrier.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2173 on:** 2013-10-07 20:40:41 »

Ok yeah, I will concede that. Sephiroth is manipulating those with Jenova cells into coming to the Reunion. And has some sort of power over them. But the Cloud dialogue thing is separate and not Sep

Hojo
“My genius provided the answer…
It was Sephiroth.”{NEW}
“His will had not been dispersed
into the Lifestream.”{NEW}
“He was manipulating the [copies].”

Also, Cloud explains that Sep has to be nearby for him to completely lose it.

Cave is a translation error as well. It's actually Great Northern Cavity [and variants] (I've used Great Crater of the North for full).

genesis063 · « **Reply #2174 on:** 2013-10-07 21:31:56 »

Right gotcha about the Cloud voice thing and glad to shed some light to your question about the script. I believe it is Cloud is a normal person but Cloud believed otherwise but then given that he failed to be in soldier this damaged his persona. That and that he was so ashamed to face everyone he couldn't visit anyone except maybe his mother. I think this is what gave Sephiroth the edge he needed to help fabricate his memory of the incident. So they go to Nibelhiem as stated before Cloud was ashamed of not making his dream come true. The events of Nibelhiem move on however in the non-fragmented version Cloud shakes of Sephiroth's stab to his chest. Gains strength over the greif of losing his mother and Tifa getting cut. Pulls the sword out and lifts it along with Sephiroth in the air then tosses him over the rail to the Mako pit. However Sephiroth having a willpower stronger then most was still very much alive though most assumed he was dead. Hojo salvages the situation by collecting Zax with Cloud and possible rebuilding the Nibelhiem town to continue doing experiments on them. Zax manages to find a way to break out during the feeding process when the Shin-Ra employee opens the tank to give them food. Zax knocks him out and takes a spare uniform from a closet and gives it to Cloud and puts it on him. He managed to make it out and then hitch a ride to Midgar. However the soldiers eventually caught up to them and after an apparent brief battle Zax is shot and killed. Then the soldiers ignore Cloud then the scene with Zax and Cloud happen where Cloud gets the Buster Sword and tells him he is the proof of his existance his "My living legacy". Now when Tifa meets Cloud again at the train station Tifa thinks she only last saw him before he left for Midgar when actually it was five years ago when the Nibelhiem incident happened. This is due to Cloud never showing himself out of shame. So when Cloud responds he is recalling the events that where manipulated by Sephiroth to some degree to make him seek it out. The other reason is that Cloud was traumatised by the events during Nibelhiem and his desire to be a soldier hero like Sephiroth so he accepted the part partially made any other factors and himself.

Wow I think my head is spinning for trying to make it sound right. I hope I explained it a little better and this makes more sense. Sorry to go off like that but I think that is how it weant given what I know now.