The end of emulation?

[Myria kitty]

I'm beginning to think that we've reached the end of console emulation, entirely for technical reasons.

Computers are no longer getting faster; they are getting more parallel.  However, emulating a CPU must be done serially.  If ~4000 MHz is about as high as CPUs can possibly go, then how could we emulate the 3200 MHz G5 in the Xbox 360, when the emulating CPU must be several times faster?

The PS2 can be emulated thanks to dual-core machines, but that's because the system is parallel to begin with.  The 360 is 3-way parallel, but if you can't emulate one CPU of it at full speed, what's the point?

[Olie]

haha

well PC's are getten a shit load faster. quad cores have JUST come ourt recently so i can imagine them getten fuck loads faster.

the GFX cards of today are crazy 4 9800 in SLI could easily Rape a PS3 and quadriple Rape a Xbox 360

PS3 wont be emulated for awhile. but the Xbox 360 hasnt got that much of a fast system compared to PS3.

but this can be true the PC required to emulate would cost around $10,000 for a great PC thesedays.

this aint the end of emulation Technology just getten started

[yoshi314]

Computers are no longer getting faster; they are getting more parallel.  However, emulating a CPU must be done serially.

same goes for the chips in the consoles. there is simply more cores or more chips.

you can be sure that pc will always eventually catch up with amount of cores to any console. because it's an constantly evolving platform.

besides, nobody said we're condemned to x86 architecture. especially nowadays, when it's nearly certain that microsoft won't regain its monopoly position on the market - it's more likely for alternative hardware platforms to appear available to users. you should know that most os developers are increasingly annoyed by the mess x86 architecture has become and that they would happily switch elsewhere. even quite a close neighbor - amd64/x86_64 platform is much more easy to program.

soon there might be some pc's running on cell chips, some people are using mips/ppc chips. each of these architectures has its own advantages towards certain console architecture.

also thinking about performance in terms of raw mhz power is stupid nowadays. today more parallel processing yields better results, but it requires quite a different approach to programming - a very good example is a parallel port of mesa 3d library to cell ps3 architecture (done by yellow dog linux), which accelerated it 80 times (without hardware 3d access!).

[kini]

emulation after the super nintendo was all down hill anyway. apart from project64k and mario kart online

[yoshi314]

maybe that's true.

nowadays it's hard to find really carefully written software, with speed and efficiency in mind, as everybody tries to make it as generic as possible.

[Borde]

Well, that comparison is unfair. A Pentium D es much slower than a C2D even if they have comparable clock speed. But anyway, I think that the emulation of the current generation machines won't be possible at least for a long, looooooong time, because their power is nearly on par with current PCs and because they are very complex.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure there are still some slower systems that will eventually be emulated (some year..) such as the GC (the last version of Dolphin got quiet far), the DS (actually, the DS emulators are even in playable stages for a lot of games), the PSP or even the Wii. But even if this never happens, there will allways be ports of the old emulators for newer systems

[nope]

I think emulation will continue, but the rate in which it progresses depends on how fast computer hardware evolves and the complexity of the consoles themselves, for less complex systems like the gameboy advance it'd be much easier to develop an emulator for, when compared to the PS2 for example which is still an ongoing project.

[The Skillster]

I think theres something people have forgotton to mention here. It simply isn't about emulator now with the next gen consoles. I feel that console programming will get more and more similar to that of programming for games for the PC, xbox 360 and DirectX comes to mind.
The next stage of emulator will not work if they even attempt to recreate the same enviroment as the console (CPU, GPU, IO etc) but possibly its time to look at translating code in realtime rather than emulating the functions of the cpu etc?
Theres no way people are going to be able to emulate the PS3 in their spare time and for free as it would be nigh on impossible to do in my opinion.

[ChaosControl]

Well everything that works differently then a PC but has similar hardware is emulatable. The thing is, consoles now á days are more and more like computers like you and me use them for regular desktop work.

The next stage of emulator will not work if they even attempt to recreate the same enviroment as the console (CPU, GPU, IO etc) but possibly its time to look at translating code in realtime rather than emulating the functions of the cpu etc?

This is indeed very likely to happen. The console's now have similar hardware to computers now (XboX is entirely x86) so rather them emulating like we do/did now, it would be more effecient to just load the rom onto the computer hardware (for which you'd still need an emulator but this wont emulate the hardware but just the way the hardware should be interpeted).

[Borde]

Actually that's not a new idea. The XBOX emulator that got further (CBXC) tried to emulate the loader and the DirectX calls. Unfortunately, it looks like there were changes on every SDK version. I think they only got Turok working.
Anyway, this trick could only work for machines that share the same architecture. If the target machine has a CELL and the host machine has an x86 architecture, for example, then there is no way to bypass the CPU emulation.
By the way, the GBA emulation it's a really impresive case. 3 months befor the machine hit the market there already was an emulator. It was very primitive, but it even ran F-Zero when it was released!

[Otokoshi]

Some excellent points brought up thus far.  Handheld gaming does seem to have a quicker turnaround in the emulation scene than the home consoles.  I don't see this changing much because the market for handheld gaming is huge.  I think the console generation following the current one will be even more cross platform than the current one.  All the developers/publishers see the profits from releasing their games to every major console, and allowing one to pay a premium for a timed exclusive release.  I believe the next consoles will push for online distribution.

The PC folks would benefit from this.  The consoles could have their exclusive release, then after some time, release it for the PC.  The system would most certainly require the game to "phone home" before each start, but that's the secret to Valve's Steam success.  It just makes more sense that major consoles should make it easy for developers to develop for their hardware platform.  If developers could code using traditional code, ie C++ or .NET, then give them tools similar to Microsoft's XNA to make an easy port then... well it would just make sense.  Consoles are becoming more like PCs and more complicated.  The PS3 is suffering because the big titles are still delayed.  Sony does not want more delays like this when their next console launches.

In short, you'll never see Mario on your PC, unless to emulate that console.  Third-party developers I think will not pass up an opportunity for more sales across multiple platforms, as long as it's locked down to squash pirating.

[Myria kitty]

Actually that's not a new idea. The XBOX emulator that got further (CBXC) tried to emulate the loader and the DirectX calls. Unfortunately, it looks like there were changes on every SDK version. I think they only got Turok working.

It wasn't the different SDK versions that killed it - it was something known as "link-time code generation" in Visual C++.  DirectX library calls and such were getting literally inlined into game code because of it.  This makes the code different for every game, not just every SDK version.  The Xbox DirectX didn't use vtables for the IDirect3D8 etc. interfaces, they used direct calls, so this happened.

Xbox 360's backward compatibility woes are likely due to the same problem.

[Olie]

emulation after the super nintendo was all down hill anyway. apart from project64k and mario kart online

man i feel sorry for your ass.

i can run a PSX2 emulator. at decent speed PSX at max setting and Speed

PC already have a quad core CPU but i think it adds upto 8 cant remember what i read :S