Religion

[Covarr]

And I strongly suspect that the "hurr all atheists are angry teenagers" argument is one of the worst in history.

I never said ALL atheists. I SPECIFICALLY targeted the angry ones.

Learn the difference between "God" and "the concept of God". The former hasn't killed anyone. The latter has killed millions.

It hasn't killed a single person. As I said before, it is a combination of mankind's propensity to fight for damn near anything it can think of, and horrible bastardizations and misinterpretations of religions that have killed people.

Can someone explain to me why atheists are considered militant if they tell people that they're stupid, whereas religious people are considered militant when they murder hundreds of civilians or command others to do so? Could it be that you're trying to equate these two things? To imply that they have anything in common at all? Or could it be that you consider questioning religion to be as bad as killing someone?

When I see Richard Dawkins hijack a plane and fly it into a building, I'll take seriously your argument that he's a "militant atheist". Until then, I'll accuse you of using hyperbole to the point of dishonesty.

You have a decent point here, "militant" is an exaggeration. Nonetheless, people like Richard Dawkins aren't simply calling people stupid. He is smug, mean-spirited, self-righteous, and constantly looking to cause trouble. He has pretty much devoted his whole life to insulting people.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them. Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.

But then, you ignored or misrepresented almost every point I said anyway. I'm not sure if this is poor reading skills, or just intentional baiting/borderline-trolling, but either way I'm too tired to argue right now.

[Mako]

It hasn't killed a single person.

Lies! That bible came out with a knife and started chasing me down the street!

Just remember folks gun's don't kill people...people kill people.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I never said ALL atheists. I SPECIFICALLY targeted the angry ones.

It remains the worst argument in history.

It hasn't killed a single person. As I said before, it is a combination of mankind's propensity to fight for damn near anything it can think of, and horrible bastardizations and misinterpretations of religions that have killed people.

No, the bastardisations and "creative" interpretations of religions have been comparatively harmless. It's the true believers who kill. The people who take every word of the Bible or the Koran to heart and don't pretend the parts they don't like are metaphors.

BTW, what do you think about the Aztecs? They sacrificed tens of thousands of people every year because of their religious faith. Was this a bastardisation of their religion, or were they true believers?

Nonetheless, people like Richard Dawkins aren't simply calling people stupid. He is smug, mean-spirited, self-righteous, and constantly looking to cause trouble.

Compared to most political commentators, he's remarkably polite.

It's only because "faith" is given special protection and religious people expect special respect that he seems to be insulting.

He has pretty much devoted his whole life to insulting people.

No, he has devoted his life to science. Activism against religion is a *very* small part of his work.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them.

I call a spade a spade.

Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.

DLPB isn't an atheist. He has been quite clear about that.

And the "behaving civilly" and "looking for a fight" parts are hilarious.

But then, you ignored or misrepresented almost every point I said anyway. I'm not sure if this is poor reading skills, or just intentional baiting, but either way I'm too tired to argue right now.

I took your points at face value. Should I perhaps have consulted a Biblical scholar to tell me the "correct" interpretation of your words?

And perhaps you could tell me exactly what I misinterpreted and what the correct interpretation was? Because at the moment you're being extremely vague and I can't help but get the impression that you're using this whole "misinterpretation" thing as a way of weaseling out of any criticism. Just as certain people conveniently dismiss creationists and suicide bombers as "misinterpreting" their religion, without taking the time to tell us what the "correct" interpretation is.

[Armorvil]

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with atheism. I mean, I think it's wrong, but I've known plenty of kind atheists who don't resort to namecalling when anybody disagrees with them. Honestly, I'm chiefly concerned with people behaving civilly, and I tend to get along with people can do that, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's all a matter of who's looking for a fight and who isn't. You'll notice that I tend to get along quite well with DLPB and Mako (off the top of my head, but there's more than just them I'm sure), even though they have far different beliefs than me, it's because they know how to act like decent human beings.

This is why I'll continue to say I'm an agnostic IRL, even though I'm actually an atheist. It's hypocritical, yes, but I think it's needed hypocrisy in your everyday life. What I learned in the past is, no matter the quality of your argumentation, you can never convince a theist or atheist to change his ways. And since you can't get rid of them, might as well live in harmony with both (and as fun as it is, this topic ultimately is useless, as was the first one).

[Kudistos Megistos]

This is why I'll continue to say I'm an agnostic IRL, even though I'm actually an atheist. It's hypocritical, yes, but I think it's needed hypocrisy in your everyday life.

When you say you are something you are not or deny that you are something than you are "hypocrite" is not the right word. The right word is a much shorter one.

What I learned in the past is, no matter the quality of your argumentation, you can never convince a theist or atheist to change his ways. And since you can't get rid of them, might as well live in harmony with both (and as fun as it is, this topic ultimately is useless, as was the first one).

And not upsetting people is more important than saying what you honestly believe?

What a pity that so many atheists think that way (to the point of being dishonest), but so few theists do.

[Mako]

Kudi: You seem to be implying that if religion had not existed there would have been no deaths? or killing? I think WITHOUT religion more people would have died! Yup you heard it here first.

Think all that time they spend worshiping there god! just stewing thinking of way to kill one another...The only thing religion is guilty of is being the scapegoat.

[Armorvil]

When you say you are something you are not or deny that you are something than you are "hypocrite" is not the right word. The right word is a much shorter one.

It's funny how most of your posts are the ones I agree with, but because of that aggressiveness of yours, it's you I end up arguing with, KM 
So tell me, what is this shorter word ?

And not upsetting people is more important than saying what you honestly believe?

Sometimes, yes. If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.

[Kudistos Megistos]

Kudi: You seem to be implying that if religion had not existed there would have been no deaths? or killing?

That's an astonishing interpretation.

Religion is one of many things that cause people to kill. There wouldn't be world peace if it disappeared, but certain parts of the world would be much more peaceful.

I think WITHOUT religion more people would have died! Yup you heard it here first.

We can never say for certain what would have happened in alternate histories, but I find this hard to believe. The only way it would be true is if we argue that people would have fewer children if they were less religious (and birth rates in the modern world support this theory) and therefore fewer people who could possibly die.

Think all that time they spend worshiping there god! just stewing thinking of way to kill one another...The only thing religion is guilty of is being the scapegoat.

A lot of the time people spend in places of worship is spent thinking of ways to kill people. Or demonise people in a way that makes killing them much easier. People are much more ready to kill when they believe that the death of the infidels is the will of God.

This might not be the case in Oxford or New Jersey, but it's certainly the case in Gaza and Abbottabad (or was the case )

It's funny how most of your posts are the ones I agree with, but it's you I end up arguing with, KM 
So tell me, what is this shorter word ?

Oh, surely you know what it is. It's the word you use when someone is saying something that they know to be untrue, with the intent of causing the other person to believe something that is untrue.

Sometimes, yes. If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.

HAHAHA, OH WOW!

If no-one ever robustly challenged anyone else, I think we'd still be hunting bears and foraging for nuts.

And any psychopaths who did come along would have a very easy ride.

[Armorvil]

HAHAHA, OH WOW!

If no-one ever robustly challenged anyone else, I think we'd still be hunting bears and foraging for nuts.

And any psychopaths who did come along would have a very easy ride.

You know, talking with you is some hard exercice for me, since English isn't my natural language. But I'll say this : you mix up everything. On the subject of religions, you yourself have no power whatsoever. You're fighting something that is much bigger than you, and you're wasting your time. This isn't convincing people that driving is useful, nor is it defending yourself from a psychopath. The only thing a speech like yours would produce IRL, is making enemies. You're just a warmonger, and a warmonger that will fail. You hold your ideals high, you think you can change the world - but many tried in the exact same aggressive way, and all failed.

Don't go and compare your little crusade against religions, to the advances in our society or fights against totalitarism and dictatorships. They are nothing alike.

[Mako]

This might not be the case in Oxford or New Jersey, but it's certainly the case in Gaza and Abbottabad (or was the case )

Or Three quarters of the population of the planet, but feel free to mention one the most dangerous places...ohh wait....

There wouldn't be world peace if it disappeared, but certain parts of the world would be much more peaceful.

Nah

We can never say for certain what would have happened in alternate histories

But you just said...

A lot of the time people spend in places of worship is spent thinking of ways to kill people.

Thinking isn't doing good sir.

People are much more ready to kill when they believe that the death of the infidels is the will of God.

And if it isn't god, it sumthin' else HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray! People die everyday in NY for nothing, most cases random acts of violence. No god needed, though perhaps it would have been nice to blame someone. I blame poverty! LOL

[Kudistos Megistos]

You know, talking with you is some hard exercice for me, since English isn't my natural language. But I'll say this : you mix up everything. On the religion subject, you yourself have no power whatsoever. You're fighting something that is much bigger than you, and you're wasting your time. This isn't convincing people that driving is useful, nor is it defending yourself from a psychopath. The only thing a speech like yours would produce IRL, is making enemies. You're just a warmonger, and a warmonger that will fail. You hold your ideals high, you think you can change the world - but many tried in the exact same way, and all failed.

Such grandiose language!

And you clearly misunderstand my intention. I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what's on my mind. It is you who seems to think that your beliefs will make the world a better place. You say just that!

If there were more people like me, the world would be a much better place.

I didn't know that such egos existed. Even in France.

But history has shown that appeasement only brings temporary peace. By tip-toeing around crazy beliefs, you only encourage them. Si vis pacem, para bellum!

Don't go and compare your little crusade against religions, to the advances in our society or fights against totalitarism and dictatorships. They are nothing alike.

Oh but they are! At least in one way. They both involve challenging ideas that were once seen as beyond reproach.

Nah

Really? But what is the most violent, hate-filled part of the world, and what are they fighting over?

Thinking isn't doing good sir.

They wait until they're outside the church/mosque/whatever before they start doing the killing. Most of the time.

And if it isn't god, it sumthin' else HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray! People die everyday in NY for nothing, most cases random acts of violence. No god needed, though perhaps it would have been nice to blame someone. I blame poverty! LOL

As I said, getting rid of religion won't stop all the murder. You'll still have New York. Who knows why those people act the way they do?

[Mako]

Really? But what is the most violent, hate-filled part of the world, and what are they fighting over?

GAZA, But this is a very small percentage of the globe. Also the recent fighting is been about land.

They wait until they're outside the church/mosque/whatever before they start doing the killing. Most of the time.

Ah so there is a time of peace Also have you seen a muslims prayer regime? Frekin' thing takes up most of the day.

As I said, getting rid of religion won't stop all the murder. You'll still have New York. Who knows why those people act the way they do?

This will be the above excuse had religion been removed completely from the globe.

[Kudistos Megistos]

GAZA, But this is a very small percentage of the globe. Also the recent fighting is been about land.

The whole of the region is angry about it. Hell, the whole of the Islamic world is angry about it.

The fighting isn't just about land (Hamas, and presumably the people who voted for them as well, believe it's God's will for the Muslims to kill all the Jews), but even if it were, that land is only important because of its religious significance. Why else would you fight over the part of the middle east with no oil?

If I were one of the early Zionists, I would have "found" evidence that the ancient Hebrews actually lived around the Gulf.

Ah so there is a time of peace Also have you seen a muslims prayer regime? Frekin' thing takes up most of the day.

I can't say that I've had that pleasure.

This will be the above excuse had religion been removed completely from the globe.

Except when religion has been removed from the globe, the violence will only be in New York, with people killing each other over bagel taxes.

[Armorvil]

Such grandiose language!

And you clearly misunderstand my intention. I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what's on my mind. It is you who seems to think that your beliefs will make the world a better place. You say just that!

I didn't know that such egos existed. Even in France.

For someone who just says what's on his mind, you sure do say things virulently. And yes, I stand by my words. When people accept each other's differences, their different beliefs, things do not evolve into violence. Meanwhile, it's people who want to force their beliefs into others, that lead to massacres. Because after all the talking, if the person you're arguing with still doesn't agree that his religion is "bull", what happens ? A kick in the groin ?

But history has shown that appeasement only brings temporary peace. By tip-toeing around crazy beliefs, you only encourage them. Si vis pacem, para bellum!

It's still peace. On the other hand, the behavior you preconise encourages an even stronger response of the believers. "Let's settle this. In blood".

[xLostWingx]

I meant secularized believer like a Yellow-Green crayon, not Freezerburn.  By head in a jar, do you mean in an awesome way like Futurama, or in a shitty way like in a mad scientist's lab.  I'd say both are equally likely.

[Vgr]

Now, I really want any moderator or admin to close that thread. This discussion is going nowhere and, moreover, it will result in massive re-re-re-re-re-re-re (etc) posting, endlessly and so on. We all have our own opinions, and it is good to share them. Now, we don't share them, we try to defend them because we think this is the only good one. I'm sorry I started that way. It's my fault...

[Mako]

Now, I really want any moderator or admin to close that thread. This discussion is going nowhere and, moreover, it will result in massive re-re-re-re-re-re-re (etc) posting, endlessly and so on. We all have our own opinions, and it is good to share them. Now, we don't share them, we try to defend them because we think this is the only good one. I'm sorry I started that way. It's my fault...

WHAT!? I agree with Kudi Bagel Tax comment! Why you gotta ruin it! :3

I officially removed Vgr from my ecard mailing list
 

[Kudistos Megistos]

For someone who just says what's on his mind, you sure do say things virulently. And yes, I stand by my words. When people accept each other's differences, their different beliefs, things do not evolve into violence. Meanwhile, it's people who want to force their beliefs into others, that lead to massacres.

Which is one of the reasons why religion is bad. The two biggest religions in the world are all about forcing their beliefs upon others, and many people have died because of it.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to force my beliefs on others. Could this interpretation of my actions be the result of your guilty conscience?

Because after all the talking, if the person you're arguing with still doesn't agree that his religion is "bull", what happens ?

Then I have a good laugh at him.

Will you bring him to the nearest annihilation camp just to get rid of the problem ?

Nope, public humiliation will suffice.

It's still peace.

It's a peace that precedes a much bloodier war, Mr Chamberlain

On the other hand, the behavior you preconise encourages an even stronger response of the believers. "Let's settle this. In blood".

I'm of the opinion that insulating people from criticism causes them to overreact when some criticism finally comes this way.

I said before that religion gets protected, but you can still insult it. However, there is one exception, especially in north-western Europe. There is one religion that can't be criticised, because of colonial guilt and because many of its followers have an "explosive" temper (I made a funneh!)

I think that one of the reasons that members of this religion get so buttfrustrated when someone writes a crappy novel or draws a cartoon is because they receive so little criticism and so don't learn to deal with it. Instead, the world confirms their belief that their religion is sacred. There was once a time when blasphemy against Christianity would lead to getting sodomised with a red-hot poker, but that is no longer the case. One of the reasons for this is because Christians have just had to get used to some degree of criticism. They're thin-skinned, certainly, but you won't see leaders of Western countries ordering all Christians to kill people who defame the religion.

Islam has not had to learn to deal with criticism in the same way, so should we be surprised when Ayatollah Assaholah gets buttmad and orders fatwas on blesphemers?

I am rather of the opinion that giving offence is good in itself. It teaches people to toughen up. Theo van Gogh would still be alive if his film had not been the only one of its kind.

Now, I really want any moderator or admin to close that thread.

In that case, I have screencapped the thread. This is all too lulzy, and the current modus operandi at these forums is to remove and censor all evidence of anyone saying anything silly (see the situation with all of Hermoor's posts), so I must archive it!

[Mako]

Kudi you could supply a whole website! Called The "Qhimm Archives" uncencred and un-abridged!

[Armorvil]

Yeah I know of Godwin's law, so I edited my post just after posting it. But not fast enough, I guess

Which is one of the reasons why religion is bad. The two biggest religions in the world are all about forcing their beliefs upon others, and many people have died because of it.

I agree.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to force my beliefs on others. Could this interpretation of my actions be the result of your guilty conscience?

Oh lawlz. My conscience is perfectly clean, thank you.

especially in north-western Europe

That makes me think that many people in the US thought France was an islamic country, or that it was in North Africa. It's not an islamic country... ...yet *shivers*
Somehow, my views of the future are pretty grim.

Anyway, continue KM. Like Mako, I enjoy reading you (you write nice English and make good points).

[Kudistos Megistos]

Kudi you could supply a whole website! Called The "Qhimm Archives" uncencred and un-abridged!

I could join forces with Mirenheart. He made an achive of the lulzopedia somewhere.

That makes me think that many people in the US thought France was an islamic country, or that it was in North Africa.

Africa is anything that's both south of the English Channel and either west or south of the Rhine.

It's not an islamic country... ...yet *shivers*
Somehow, my views of the future are pretty grim.

Good. For a second I was worried that you were one of those people who criticises Christianity but goes all multicultural about Islam and calls it a beautiful faith.

Anyway, continue KM. Like Mako, I enjoy reading you (you write nice English and make good points).

If you're using my posts to help you with your English, I'm going to have to charge! £25 per hour, or whatever the equivalent is in that doomed currency you use down there in north Algeria.

[DLPB_]

I have no doubt that Mother Theresa was stronger in her religious belief than Osama Bin Laden, but few would say her mind was sick

Had she been Islamic she would have been a suicide bomber.  Don't let em read the Koran, they may learn too much.  Mein kampf has some serious competition!

[obesebear]

More people are killed daily by mindless murder and greed than ANY religious beliefs.  People are going to kill each other no matter the reason.

But even if we play make-believe and say religion is the main cause of deaths, well good.  Maybe no one else has noticed but the worldwide population is absolutely out of control.  We cure diseases constantly and are always finding new ways to prolong life.  We NEED something to kill us, and unfortunately natural disasters just aren't happening quickly enough.

[Mako]

YaaaY Obesebear is on my side! Were is my gold star? Also I believe I collected enough to get a tee shirt or somthin'
*Cough* size 5 *Cough*

[Jaitsu]

i was raised to be christian, but i never fully could go along with it.

i believe almost everything in the bible is a medaphor, and also that some of it was not originally there, the bibles been around for a looooong time, long enough for some greedy leader of a peoples to decide "fuck this, i wanna change that".

for instance, can you honestly tell me that a man who does evil all his life but believes in god and on his death bed makes a little prayer for forgiveness goes to heaven... but a man who has spent his entire life doing every thing he could to help people, is probably the greatest person on earth but has difficulty believing in a being he cannot see or speak to is going to hell. i don't.

i believe that it is our actions that define where we end up, not our beliefs.

i also believe if you go around in the wee hours of the morning knocking on peoples doors and trying to convert them, you should be strung up and forced to watch a thousand ultimate warrior promo's.