What should I do with Red XIII, Vincent and Cait Sith?

[Kudistos Megistos]

So, I'm doing some modding at the moment and making the characters a little more individual. Cloud is an extremely strong all-rounder, Barret is a tank with huge HP but little magic power and speed, and his machine guns can hit all enemies (toggle multiple is turned on), Tifa has high dexterity and slightly low HP and magic, with a chance of countering any physical attack (she's a martial artist, after all). Aeris is a strong mage with very low physical strength and HP, Yuffie has high speed, comes with several materia and (if there is a way to make this happen with AI, which is unlikely) may have an increased steal rate, and Cid will be an all rounder whose limit breaks have a low HP divisor thanks to his short temper.

However, I'm not sure what to do with the others. None of the others lend themselves to any specific class. Cait Sith will have low dexterity and high HP like Barret (because he has a huge stuffed toy), but I can't think what else he would do. I'm also toying with the idea (again, this is assuming it's possible to do and assuming it doesn't make him unusable) of giving Vincent an HP level worthy of an undead ex-Turk but making him absorb recovery spells and items in the same way as undead enemies. Beyond that, I can't work out whether to make Red XIII, Cait Sith and Vincent mages, physical fighters or something else.

I'd like to know what people think Red XIII, Vincent and Cait Sith's strengths and weaknesses should be, and why they think it.

[sl1982]

I would say Red XIII high speed high power. He is an animal afterall, generally fast and strong. To balance him out I would say low magic and slightly lower defense.
Cait Sith is a contolled puppet so maybe high defence, low strength.
Vincent i dont know about. I never really used him.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I would say Red XIII high speed high power. He is an animal afterall, generally fast and strong. To balance him out I would say low magic and slightly lower defense.

You see, I thought this about Red XIII as well. Unfortunately, he's extremely intelligent so he seem like he should have a high (or at least average) magic stat.

Hmmm, I wonder whether I should increase his HP divisor for limit breaks in order to balance him? (he seems to be calm as well; an anti-Cid, if you will). As a last resort, it's also possible to disable armour for him (which would be hard for an animal to wear).

I'm tending to agree with you about Cait Sith, at least with the low strength bit (his HP is high, so he doesn't really need high defence). I can't see him doing much damage with a megaphone.

[Bosola]

Barret is a tank with huge HP but little magic power and speed, and his machine guns can hit all enemies (toggle multiple is turned on),

Dang. I did the same in Rebirth.

Yuffie has high speed, comes with several materia and (if there is a way to make this happen with AI, which is unlikely) may have an increased steal rate,

Hmm. It might be doable. You'd need a Counter:General script that stored Yuffie's Level in a localvar, bumped her level up to 255, then swapped back. Watch how Diamond Weapon deals with limit breaks for an example.

I made Red an all rounder (original, I know), Vincent an Aeris substitute and Cait... well, you'll see. There's a lot to like about my Cait, but can you rely on him?

[Kudistos Megistos]

Barret is a tank with huge HP but little magic power and speed, and his machine guns can hit all enemies (toggle multiple is turned on),

Dang. I did the same in Rebirth.

I've always done this with Barret; it seems like a logical thing to do with his machine guns.

Yuffie has high speed, comes with several materia and (if there is a way to make this happen with AI, which is unlikely) may have an increased steal rate,

Hmm. It might be doable. You'd need a Counter:General script that stored Yuffie's Level in a localvar, bumped her level up to 255, then swapped back. Watch how Diamond Weapon deals with limit breaks for an example.

I see. I'd prefer something cleaner, but I'll look into this.

[nikfrozty]

I'm thinking very high accuracy and critical for Vincent since characters who wields guns mostly hit critical. Also, Vincent is fast so maybe high dextertity? Don't know of any weakness of Vincent so sorry. Cait Sith can be weak for magic since it's a robot after all so a little lightning really hurts it. Yuffie with high evade rate I guess.

[The Seer of Shadows]

Imo, Cait Sith should be a defensive wall (high defense, high HP, maybe high magic defense as well).  Vincent should have high magic and a decent critical hit rate.  Red XIII should be super speedy and have an even higher critical hit rate.

You can always balance characters by making their Limit Breaks better or worse.

[Armorvil]

and his machine guns can hit all enemies (toggle multiple is turned on)

I already tested this, and I would advise against it. It's been a while though - so I don't remember exactly why I had to ditch this idea, but I'm pretty sure it has to deal with materia combinations / commands like 4x Cut or Deathblow + Added Cut... ...I think Barret would attack once (damaging all enemies in the process), but the game would hang after that - his second attack never being triggered. Not to mention the fact it might mess with the other commands' targeting (Barret would try to steal / sense / etc. all enemies at once). For instance, since I changed Aeris' targeting so her rods attack the party by default, she can't steal from enemies anymore (that bad girl would always try to rob party members).

[Kudistos Megistos]

I don't recall making Barret's attacks toggle multiple causing any problems for me. I did have "start on all" turned on as well...

Hmm. It might be doable. You'd need a Counter:General script that stored Yuffie's Level in a localvar, bumped her level up to 255, then swapped back. Watch how Diamond Weapon deals with limit breaks for an example.

I've just noticed a potential problem here: what happens when she is using "mug" or "steal as well"? I assume that raising her level would increase her attack power dramatically.

In any case, there are other ways to emphasise Yuffie's thief ability...

[MvMcool]

I think Yuffie should have a high pre-emptive attack.  As a thief she should be excellent at sneaking up on enemies.

[Armorvil]

I don't recall making Barret's attacks toggle multiple causing any problems for me. I did have "start on all" turned on as well...

I just tried again with Cloud, against Rufus and Dark Nation. In the 'Weapon target' section of Wall Market, I checked "Start as multiple" for the Buster Sword (also, I noticed that checking "toggle multiple" for a weapon doesn't work : when you load your kernel again or just click on another weapon / change tab, you'll notice that "toggle multiple" was automatically un-checked). Then, equipped with a Double Cut materia, I had cloud attack both Rufus and Dark Nation. Results : the game hangs after the first hit. And this problem also occurs if you try it with Barret. But maybe you managed to find a way around this ?...

[Shankifer]

Vincent's Properties would be somewhere along the lines of two different options.

The peashooter-
-Avg HP
-Avg MP
-High Accuracy
-High Magic Defense
-Low Reg. Defense
-low weapon damage to start (if barret's machine gun can't one-hit, then a pistol shouldn't be able to either )
-possibly increasing the Limit's attack power but thats a preference really. Limit could actually be untampered and fine

The Sharpshooter-
-High Damage
-High Accuracy
-Low Defense
-Avg-High MP
-Low HP
-High Magic Defense

Those would both be fairly well-rounded vincent's

[Kudistos Megistos]

I don't recall making Barret's attacks toggle multiple causing any problems for me. I did have "start on all" turned on as well...

I just tried again with Cloud, against Rufus and Dark Nation. In the 'Weapon target' section of Wall Market, I checked "Start as multiple" for the Buster Sword (also, I noticed that checking "toggle multiple" for a weapon doesn't work : when you load your kernel again or just click on another weapon / change tab, you'll notice that "toggle multiple" was automatically un-checked). Then, equipped with a Double Cut materia, I had cloud attack both Rufus and Dark Nation. Results : the game hangs after the first hit. And this problem also occurs if you try it with Barret. But maybe you managed to find a way around this ?...

I haven't had any problems like this. If it's something that only happens when using double-cut, then I found a way around it completely by accident: I've got rid of double cut. Double cut materia is replaced by flash, which is separate from slash-all (and slash-all is toggle multiple).

[Bosola]

I don't recall making Barret's attacks toggle multiple causing any problems for me. I did have "start on all" turned on as well...

Hmm. It might be doable. You'd need a Counter:General script that stored Yuffie's Level in a localvar, bumped her level up to 255, then swapped back. Watch how Diamond Weapon deals with limit breaks for an example.

I've just noticed a potential problem here: what happens when she is using "mug" or "steal as well"? I assume that raising her level would increase her attack power dramatically.

In any case, there are other ways to emphasise Yuffie's thief ability...

Steal as well and mug are distinct from the Steal command, so they wouldn't invoke the script. Whether that solves the problem or adds another depends on what you plan to do with Mug, Steal as Well and Yuffie's innate thievery.

[Marc]

I personally see Red XIII as fairly spiritual so maybe high speed, low physical damage, high spirit (magic def) and moderate magic damage ?  A claw can't hurt more than a sword after all ...

As for Caith Sith I see him like you (high HP, low def) but perhaps since he's a machine he shouldn't be able to use magic or be awful at it (in like 5% of the damage Aerith does).  Machines shouldn't be supposed to "interact" with the planet anyway.

As for vincent i always saw him as high dexterity, high magic character.  He's usually who I'd use as an Aerith replacement.  He's a "magic beast" thanks to Hojo now anyway.  The total opposite of Barret except that they both use guns (I also wouldn't multi target for vince).

[Kudistos Megistos]

Multiple targeting for Vincent is an obvious no-no; even Barret's non-machinegun weapons can only hit one target in my mod.

As for Vincent, I've just remembered that the manual refers to his body as being frail; looks like maybe he could be the new mage and Aeris replacement. He joins the party not long before Aeris dies, as well.

I'm currently leaning towards making Red XIII a very strong all-round character, seeing as he's an animal but also intelligent, but preventing him from being able to equip armour so long as it doesn't cause any crashes.

[Armorvil]

I wonder... ...Could one give special attributes to the characters through their AI ?
Like making RedXIII always absorb Fire, for example ? And making some characters always immune against some status ailments ? Or making characters with Auto-Barrier / MBarrier / Reflect / Haste / whatever without having to deal with accessories ?...

Anyway, your idea sounds nice, KM.

[SeviStatic]

im not super familiar with the system, but maybe an increased dodge rate for vincent and yuffie would make sense.

 i like the low magic-resist for cait sith and maybe high defense and hp, low dodge, and provokes attack?

[Bosola]

I wonder... ...Could one give special attributes to the characters through their AI ?
Like making RedXIII always absorb Fire, for example ? And making some characters always immune against some status ailments ? Or making characters with Auto-Barrier / MBarrier / Reflect / Haste / whatever without having to deal with accessories ?...

Anyway, your idea sounds nice, KM.

Yeah, you can play with immunity / resistance flags within AI.

You could even write a script that makes Nanaki gain power when fire spells are used on him.

[Armorvil]

Thanks for the info. I'm using accessories / armors unique to each characters right now, but I might implement my ideas with AI code later... ...if I get off my lazy ass and learn how to do it, though. It would free a lot of equipment slots... ...Also, I thought about making Barret and Cid weak against magical elements through AI, but it's not so good an idea, when I think about it (and even though I'd love to further increase the magic damage they take - 0 spirit / Mdef is definitely not enough).

Giving Aeris and friends a higher MDef than 255 would solve the "problem"...

[Shinrin]

If possible, RedXiii shouldn't use any armor or materia. Like previously mentioned, it does seem hand for him to use armor being an animal. And without the armor, where does his materia go? In his "comb"? High speed, moderate attack, high dodge, moderate defense with a high magical defense, since he's more of a mystical beast than a plain animal.

[The Seer of Shadows]

And without the armor, where does his materia go? In his "comb"?

Well, yeah.  If he can't equip any armor ingame, then obviously, there are no materia slots in his armor for him to utilize.  But he still has his weapons, which have materia slots for him to make use of.

Removing Red XIII's ability to equip armor will seriously limit him late in the game no matter how high his stats are.  Unlike the other characters, he'll never be able to have any elemental resistances or status immunities without the use of Resist or Shield.  I don't agree with removing his ability to equip armor, but if you do, it only makes sense to make his stat growths super uber.

What I would recommend is perhaps changing one or two pieces of armor so that they are exclusive to Red XIII.  He can have a basic piece of armor that he comes equipped with, and perhaps a better piece of armor that he can acquire later (maybe as a drop from Lifeform Hojo-N, who only drops a measly Power Source by default).

[Bosola]

You could give Red Elemental + Status resistances via Accessories, though. And AI, I suppose.

[The Seer of Shadows]

You could give Red Elemental + Status resistances via Accessories, though. And AI, I suppose.

AI is a pain to work with.  But accessories?  Why didn't I think about that?  *slaps forehead*

I still think Red should be given one special, exclusive piece of armor...

[Bosola]

It really isn't as bad as people imagine.

Off the top of my head, you'd

PUSH TargetMask:Self
PUSH ElementAbsorbMask:Fire
MASK
PUSH 1 (absorb)
STORE 1 in above mask
FINISH