Yes, it's now my turn to ask for advice on a major system up

[Goku7]

Ok, first of all, I'd like to announce that yesterday, December 7, was my birthday.  Now, aside from the fact that that means people were wishing me a happy birthday, I also got roughly $160 worth of checks and cash from my relatives.  Added to my life savings, that brings the total close to $200.  

Now, the real kicker is that my dad agreed to supplement me in buying a bare-bones CPU-Motherboard-Memory upgrade.  So, without further ado, here's my question:

What combination of components can get me the most bang-for-buck for under $500?  Why $500?  Because I think that dad is only willing to pay for roughly $300 or so for his part of the purchase.  300 + ~200=  almost $500.

Now, I'm planning to upgrade it to where I can stay above the 1GHz barrier on a P-III, with 256 Megs of PC133 SDRAM.  I don't need to worry about Video or Sound, because of my 3dFX Voodoo3 PCI and my XG hardware card.  I do need to worry, however, about the availibility of ISA slots on this potential system.  The SB AWE64 I use for SoundFont purposes is an ISA card, and therefore needs a slot.

So, therefore, those of you who are regulars in this forum (whom I dub the "Tech Squad", after the one in Trabia Garden in FF8.), give me your best shot at this limited opportunity I have.

-edit- why doesn't the forum recognize the underline tags in the posts?  Oh well, I'll just use italics instead.
[edited] 239 2001-12-09 00:19

[ficedula]

Hmmm ... OK.

Firstly if you're looking for 1Ghz or above ... you should almost certainly *not* be buying Intel CPU. Don't know about US prices (but I'm assuming they're a similar "spread" to UK prices) but a quick check on >1Ghz CPU's gives me:

P4 1.4Ghz:      Â£116  (actually cheaper than the slower PIII, so if you *must* buy Intel, you'd go for that)

Athlon 1.4:      Â£103

Or, for a value CPU:

Duron 1Ghz:  Â£60

So Intel really isn't a good bet - most people agree AMD is *generally* ahead on performance, although it's a bit contentious - but it's fairly clear than Intel costs noticably more for little, if any, gain at the moment. Plus isn't there that RIMM issue with P4's...?
Is there some reason you need a PIII? With a new mobo, surely you could go for any CPU, right? Athlon is *the* choice at the moment...only thing to watch for is cooling, but if you're not overclocking a standard Athlon heatsink/fan should do.

RAM ... well, if you want 256MB of 133, then buy that, you can't really say much about RAM.

Mobo ... well, I haven't got an Athlon/Duron, but a quick search popped up the Gigabyte GA-7ZXR; support for AMD's up to about 1.5Ghz, 5 PCI slots & 1 ISA (which to be honest, is as good as you're likely to get nowadays; ISA is old...). Onboard 4-channel sound, which you may not need, but an awful lot of mobos have it ... you can always disable it ... plus dualbios, which could be very useful when it comes to flash upgrade time  Haven't seen it, but my current mobo's a Gigabyte and I've been satisfied with it. Asus are also supposed to be pretty good.

[Goku7]

Sounds good....only problem is I don't know the exchange rate for British to U.S. currency.

Well, my dad suggested an Intel CPU; simply because of the cooling issues.  If I had a choice between a CPU that fries itself 5 seconds after the heat sink/fan gives out (that's AMD) or a CPU that just causes the system to freeze after the cooling systems fail, but no hardware damage, I'd rather err on the side of price to make I won't have to spend it again on a new processor.  Don't get me wrong, the AMD route was my first choice, but after my dad told me about the cooling issues, I decided to change my mind.

The price list my dad showed me had about a $200 increase in making the jump from P-III to P4.  Considering that I'm still on a limited buget, and that the P-III is generally cheaper than the P4 with little or no difference in performance for games, I had thought that P-III was the way to go.  However, I'll go for a P4 if I can afford it.

BTW, what's RIMM?

When I asked my dad why he suggested 256 megs instead of of the 128 I figured he'd go for, his reply was, "RAM is cheap."  'Nuff said on that issue!
[edited] 239 2001-12-09 02:01

[ficedula]

PIII ain't cheaper. That P4 1.4Ghz I found cheaper than the PIII 1Ghz. Intel's really pushing the P4, hence the prices.

Maybe your price list is out of date ... old CPU's (and the PIII qualifies on that) always cost more simply because they aren't being produced as much, or at all, compared to newer processors. The day Intel announces PIII production stopped/slashes, boom, prices change.

However ... if you prefer the safety margin of Intel (personally, I wouldn't really care, cooling failures are rare anyway, plus "any day now" AMD motherboards will have proper thermal protection too) then you *are* going to pay for it.

RIMMs: IIRC Intel's P4 mobos use RIMM memory, which is essentially the fastest ram available (still beats DDR memory I believe) but you *do* pay a noticable premium for it. I'm told you can get P4 mobos which use normal RAM, but I haven't seen any. Then again, I haven't been tracking P4's so I'm not exactly 100% on all of this.
OK, price time...

256MB of PC133 ram ... £26
256MB of DDR ram ... £28
256MB of RIMM ... £78

You noticing a difference here? Yup

Pound/dollar exchange rate is usually around 1.4 pounds to the dollar ... so the ram prices above would be around 36, 39, 109 in dollars.

The memory issue is another reason I'm aiming for an AMD when I upgrade, but hey. At the moment the P4's are safer for thermal overheating ... in a few months, different story

Got all my prices from http://www.pcindex.co.uk which I've found fairly good, so I'm prepared to take their prices as read (since they just search through about 15 stores and take the lowest price).

[Reznor007]

Definitely go AMD. The cooling issue isn't a problem unless you have a defective fan, in which case, the PC shop will probably replace the CPU/mobo.

You can get an AthlonXP 1800(1.5GHz?) for $180 US. $252 gets you an Intel P3 1.2GHz... let's compare there.

I would say go for an Epox 8KTA3+ motherboard and the AthlonXP 1800. It uses standard SDRAM at PC133 speed. It really performs well. It also has an ISA slot, and 6 PCI and 1 AGP, plus onboard sound(easily disabled in BIOS).

I have the standard 8KTA3 board and an Athlon 1.33GHz, and I love it. Very stable.

[Goku7]

Hmm....Your explaination of RIMMs sounds familiar......

Of course!  They probably call it "RIMM" in the U.K., but in the U.S. I think it's called either RAMBUS or RDRAM.

Wait a minute.  According to the prices you listed, the cost of going from PC133 to DDR is a measely $2?  If that's the case, then I'll try to go for the DDR.  Okay, so maybe I'm getting a little greedy here!

Still, like I said, I'll go for the P4 if I can manage to get a good price for it.  I think your right about the price list my dad got.  The particular store he got the list from tends to be a little higher, and is most likely 2 or 3 months old.

Now, will the fact that I would prefer a motherboard that has at least one ISA slot (1 will do, actually, since I don't need my modem, I'm using DSL.), make the motherboard price higher than it would be w/o it, simply because it's ancient technology?  If that's the case, then how much of an increase in price would I be typically looking at?

[vvalentine]

Definately go for AMD.  My brother has a 600 Mhz Pentium Celeron on his computer, 128 MB DIMM RAM, 8 MB video memory graphics accelerator.  My laptop has 550 Mhz AMD-K6 III, 128 MB SODIMM RAM, 8 MB video memory, and I still outperform my brother's computer by a lot.  3D games run with no problems on mine, and multimedia is perfect has no problem on my computer, and on my brother's computer Divx movies are choppy.  I have grown a fondness for AMD processors :love:.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that DDR is faster than RAMBUS.  

Tomorrow (sunday) is the day that I will finally be free from slavery (work).

-vvalentine

[ficedula]

I'm correcting you, because I think you're wrong

Check http://www4.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q4/011008/sis645-03.html for memory benchmarks.

[Darkness]

rambus costs an arm and a leg. go with an athlon 1900+ and a gig of ddr for about the same price as the RAMBUS

[J*** H*******]

Message.

[Goku7]

Well, there's a problem with stocking up on memory.  I have a *relatively limited* budget to work with, remember?  I need to balance the cost of the case, mobo, CPU,and RAM to fit under roughly $500.

PSU:  I'm assuming that stands for Power Supply Unit.  Yes, I know I'll need a new one.  But dad said that the new PSU will be bought with the case when we do go to buy the new "upgrade".  So we've already got that issue covered.

As for the Sound Card Issue; you remember I run a dual sound card setup.  My SB AWE64 is used for the SoundFont capability, and the fact that it's joystick port doesn't forget the gamepad's callibration every time Windows starts up.  My XG card's Joystick port does forget.

Now, you may say, "but you should still get the SB Live! because of the EAX support and [insert another radical acceleration features the card has]".  Well, my XG card has hardware acceleration for practically every 3D sound API except for  A3D 2.0, which now pretty much seems defunct, since I haven't seen many games that use A3D 2.0.

[Darkness]

goku, that would be difficult on a p4/athlon system. my suggestion:

Duron 1GHz - Look it up on pricewatch.
ATX case with 400 watt power supply - $50-100
Gigabyte Motherboard - $100 or so
512 PC133 SDRAM - $50?

[J*** H*******]

Message.

[vvalentine]

Yeah, that's what I thought.  I knew that RAMBUS was faster, but I wasn't so sure.  I looked somewhere, and read that DDR was faster (and it kinda confused me).  So thanks for the link, it gets my mind clear on that.  

I dissagree with going to Intel.  AMD is much cheaper, and I have seen that AMD processors have been able to keep up with Intel processors.  Plus, I'm kinda tired of Intel.

-vvalentine

[edited] 213 2001-12-10 04:46

[J*** H*******]

Message.

[ficedula]

P4's *are* an easy choice because they require less worrying about, but if you've got the time to spend tweaking your AMD then it's generally a better choice, IMHO of course.

Guy I know a few roads over runs an Athlon 1.4 and it idles around 30 degrees. Sure, he had to buy some cooling equipment (IE: not the sh*tty heatsink that most companies try to fob you off with) but that's a good idea anyway ... IIRC he's using a aluminium shim, Arctic Silver compound, along with a nice large fan/heatsink combo. Idling around 30 is *very* nice on a 1.4Ghz machine

Cost might seem annoying, but remember how much you've saved by going AMD and you're still ahead...

The only thing that would put me off an Athlon is the nice thermal meltdown "feature" The newer XP/MP models do have a thermal diode in them though, and as soon as a mobo with *proper* usage for it comes out, you've got protection against that. Lord knows why it's taking them so long (well, I'm told it's not as simple as the P4 system to use, but even still I'd have though it was a pretty important feature!).

I'm not planning to upgrade until at least next year anyway, so by the time I'm ready, hopefully I can pick up such a mobo and go AMD with *no* disadvantages

[Reznor007]

In addition it's more than capable of causing meltdown in your computer, often taking the motherboard with it. And the chipsets you have to use with it will give you much joy when you start to ponder whether this version of Insert-Name-Here-4-in-1 drivers will give you trouble, and will they work with your soundcard drivers that were written by the elite of programmers (*cough* I'm not talking about Creative's driver 'support' here, not... *cough*). It also offers you much higher chance of chipping the core when you are installing the heat sink

Meltdown? Only if your fan fails, in which case many places will replace the CPU if the fan is within warranty. VIA drivers have gotten to a point where there aren't any serious issues(no more than Intel's chipsets anyway). And most PC stores will install the fan themselves just to prevent any such issues.

AMD is a better choice in every way. Cheaper, same or better performance, same compatibily.

[Darkness]

water cooling system.... *drools* now that will prevent meltdown.

[J*** H*******]

Message.

[Threesixty]

Here's my understanding of Rambus and DDR (or regular Sdram).

Rambus is like a dump truck (Just picture something big and slow).....

It carries a lot of dirt (memory) with each load.....but it's slow....and the Dump truck isn't always full when it gets to it's destination. (the CPU) DDR/Sdram are like a regular pickup truck. It handles like a car, fast and nimble, but doesn't carry anywhere near the dirt that a dumptruck can....it's usually fully loaded on it's deliveries.

So...in heavy memory applications, the Rambus really shines....(of course I think the only thing that uses that feature exclusively are probably benchmark programs that rate memory....I could be wrong. Games nowadays, need a lot of everything.)

In light/average memory applications the Sdram and DDR Sdram, show their advantage over the heavy lag time of the Rambus memory.

The difference between DDR and normal ram is about a 10% increase in performace. You would think that something called Double Density Rated Sdram...would be twice as fast as Sdram...but it isn't.

As far as the mhz race. P4 is winning.....but according to the benchmarks between the two chips.......mhz to mhz the Athlon, is faster. a 1.6 Athlon runs the same as a 1.9 P4......at least that's what AMD is rating it at...and that's basicly what the Benchmarks say, too.

Currently the Athlon is lagging a little behind the P4, in performance.....but very, very little. And you have to remember...your comparing a 2 gig P4 with a 1.6gig Athlon.

I wish I could say that the Athlon is more stable....but I would be lying, if I said that, because I never used a P4. So I couldn't fairly say it's more stable. I can tell you it's more stable that my old P200mmx. Crashes are very rare on my MSI board. The only time it crashes is when playing poorly/old programed games, and during power failers.

As for tempertures.....Just have the third party probe program on.....it'll start beeping if it gets too hot, I have mine set for 55C. Average temp seems to be about 45C...sometimes it will get to 50C sometimes it'll idle at 40C (kinda depends on the room temp). I really should put on a faster fan.....but it hasn't beeped yet.

[Goku7]

Ya know, AMD is starting to sound better.......

Like I said, the AMD route was my first choice, but dad was so in doubt about trusting the AMD processor that he was really pushing me to get an Intel CPU.  Right now, I just don't know.  My friend has an AMD and is not experiencing any problems, thermal or otherwise.

I gotta go now, I'll finish what I have to say later.

[Threesixty]

Let me just add that components will make or break an Athlon. Athlons require a high quality Power Supply. Be wary of cases that come with generic Power Supplies. I suggest getting an Antec 400w PS....I'm using the 300w version and have had no problems with lack of power, with it and my 1.2 Athlon.

Lack of power is the number one cause of random reboots. Enermax and Forton Source PS's are also considered good brands, but your going to pay for them

You also need a good Motherboard....Epox and the "Sayo Dragon plus" seem to be the best right now, according to reviews.

And stay with named-brand memory, stay away from the cheaper generic brands. Memory is cheap right now, anyway. Why bother saving 5 dollars for, luck of the draw, generic memory.

And if your worried about temperatures, and you don't mind the sound of a WW2 airplane engine. Get the

Global Win CAK38 Solid Copper Cooler (pricy)
or the
Global Win WBK38  (better priced)

or just choose one:

http://www.coolerguys.com/cpucool/duron.shtml

I'm using the Alpha PAL6035 with the ultra quiet Sunon FAN.....The temps are a little high with this fan....The Delta Fan will bring down the temps but is, very, very, very noisy.....maybe the middle fan (YS-tech) was the best choice, too late, now.......  But if you don't mind the noise, anything with a Delta Fan, will cool....and if that fan ever goes out, your going to know it.

[edited] 65 2001-12-12 02:51

[edited] 65 2001-12-12 02:57

[Goku7]

Ok. I'm back.  Time to put my response on the various issues out, en masse.:

PSU: I'll ask my dad what he thinks would be the best PSU to get for my system.  I'll take your suggestions into consideration as well.

TEMPERATURE: Well, I don't think I'll have to worry that much about temperature, since my house has blown-in insulation and central air conditioning, and we normally keep the ambient temperature in the house at 70 or so degrees F at the most.  In other words, I'm not running the system in sauna-like conditions already.

Now, I know I had this little scare with the possibility that my CPU or PSU's fan was failing.  As I stated in the other thread, it turns out I mistaked what I heard for the death throes of the battery within this old Mario World game-watch I had.  The battery sent out a final spurt, making it make the series of beeps I described.

CPU BRAND:  I am still weighing the pros and cons of the different CPU brands (Intel and AMD).   I suppose the Mobo I get will largely depend on the brand of processor I get.  So, in that case, I'll need to know what specific Motherboard model works best for the AMD, and what Model works best for Intel.  Of course, the trick here is that both models being suggested have to have at least one ISA slot.  And, obviously they can't be some pricey board that will run me overbudget.

MEMORY: Type of memory and amount have pretty much been decided.  I'm gonna go for 256 Megs of DDR SDRAM.  But, when I told my friend at school the memory specs, he said (much to my amusement), "Whadd'ya mean, only 256?  Go for 512!  512 sounds like a nice round number when it comes to memory."

ISA SLOTS, ETC.:In response to the question of dumping the SB AWE 64 and getting an SB Live!, well, like I said, I already have an EAX-capable card.  Getting an SBLive! card would be redundant, because then it would not only be like replacing the AWE card, but my XG card as well.

Considering I bought the XG card with my hard-earned cash, I would like to keep using it for as long as possible, otherwise it'd be like I flushed $45 down the toliet.

[Darkness]

amd is the way to go if you want to save money.

[Threesixty]

You may think getting a PCI card is redundant...but not very many, if any "good" motherboards have ISA slots anymore.

You have to care about temps....an AMD chip will fry in less than 2 seconds, without a heatsink installed. Many newbies, to computer building, fried their chip, because they wanted to see if the system would turn on...without taking the time in installing the heatsink first

Remember, that Windows 98 only recognizes 512megs of ram. So if you don't plan on going to the Win2000 kernel. you can go ahead in get non-ECC memory. (512megs is kind of the determining point of going ECC) ECC and non-ECC ram don't work together. So if you ever go over 512 megs, and use non ECC Ram, you may experience more lockups. The more ram you have, the more likely something will go wrong, The ECC is a chip that is a Error Control Chip. But ECC memory is slower than non-ECC memory. Guess what I'm trying to say is, if you never upgrade from Win98, you shouldn't have any problems. If you ever go with XP or 2000, and buy more ram....your either need to buy the non ECC memory, and keep your old stick of 512, or your going to have to sell the old non-Ecc memory, and buy a whole new set of ECC memory.

(unless I'm wrong about them not working together.....I think I heard that they don't work together....) Hmm, then again....if I was in that situation....I would just buy the non-ECC type, and gamble with the lock-ups.  

There is another option, in memory choices, called Registered. Registered is the opposite of non-buffered. Registered is another chip, on the stick, that cures memory lock-ups at the cost of speed. Most people just buy the Non-buffered. The only time you would want Registered is if you were running a server. And, ECC....you have to make sure that the motherboard supports it. ECC is recommended, if you have more than 512megs of RAM.


My Dad just informed me that he want's a computer for work....
I think I'm going to buy most of the stuff at Newegg.com.

Total is 1,003.71 American. (includes shipping to Texas)

Soyo K7V Dragon+
1900XP Athlon
(2) IBM 40gig Ultra 100's 7200rpm
Crucial 256DDR PC2100 2.5case Unbuffered Dimm
Teac 3 1/4 Floppy
Plextor 16x10x40x
MS-8855,  MSI G2Ti Pro-T  (a Geforce2 Pro Card)
Vantec CCK-6035D (a copper heatsink with a delta fan)
Microsoft 114key with 10 hot keys
Microsoft Intelli Mouse Optical

I'm buying the case locally, probably 120 dollars or so.
and his company is providing a DSL modem. He's going to need a monitor...I'll buy that locally, too. 300dollars or so. As far as a Soundcard...he doesn't really need one....but the Soyo Dragon comes with a built in 6-channel Sound chip, anyway.

I'm almost tempted in giving him my 1.2 266FSB AThlon w/ MSIk7t-turbo. For this newer setup....He's getting a better price than I did, 8 months ago....and a faster system to boot.
[edited] 65 2001-12-13 05:17