Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.991)  (Read 3462573 times)

UematsuSan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7475 on: 2019-01-16 06:49:28 »
I just wanted to provide a combat-related suggestion. I'm not sure how possible it is to tweak these mechanics, but to me, they're some of the major issues that have plagued the (original) game for a long time: Wait mode is doesn't really wait every time it should.

Bear with me on the details, this is a bit technical and hard to explain.

How Wait Mode is intended to work:
In vanilla FF7 (and this mod at this time), Wait Mode is intended to lock ATB while players are choosing their command. It's also meant to wait while animations are playing in order to keep relative balancing between a simple 3-second Potion item command and a say 8-second Cure ability. I understand this can come down to personal taste, but I think anyone NOT playing in Wait mode is most likely experiencing a relatively broken balancing between short and long commands, making the former usually more powerful just because they are quicker to complete.

How it actually works:
Right now, when casting any ability, you'll notice a lot of inconsistencies when using Wait Mode.

For starters, it doesn't seem to wait while selecting a command (top menu, if you will). Both ally and enemy ATB keep going, forcing any "hop" into that top menu (when going from selecting a magic ability and back out to select Attack, for example) to push ATB forward. In reality, the enemy wins with this one, as the player is simply trying to select a command to be executed.

Next up is while a character is "prepping" a cast. By "prepping", I mean that roughly 3-second-long animation before the spell comes out. ATB just keeps going during that time, making spell-casting detrimental, especially at a high frequency. When factoring fights against multiple enemies, then all of their ATBs will rise, resulting in an even more penalizing situation. This creates a wildly inconsistent experience with balancing depending on the player or the builds being used. i.e. Caster-centric builds are limiting. For example, when casting a simple spell like Cure, all ATBs will keep moving along for about 3 seconds until the spell is prepped and in effect. Only at this time will the ATB truly stop.

Another issue I've seen with this is how any countdown ability behaves. While a character is under the effect of say Death Sentence, casting any spell with prep time will keep the countdown going, essentially shaving off ~3 seconds off of the timer. In order to be less penalized by this mechanic, I guess players can play at a faster combat speed so more actions come out before the character's time is up, but that might be pushing pacing into an unwanted or uncomfortable speed for some people.

Lastly, in order to circumvent this issue, I've noticed a very degenerate behavior in FF7 speedruns where players select a command (like Attack) and leave their target selection cursor active while all the casting is being completed. This is the only way currently to really STOP any ATB (from both allies and enemies alike). That means they also always try to have 1 character in a menu selection in order to be able to lock the ATB. I'm going to go ahead and say this wasn't really the intended way to play the game. As a side-note, Limit Breaks also seem to stop ATB completely as soon as they start casting, which gives me hope that this could potentially be resolved.

Recap of issues with Wait Mode:

1) AI will take more turns than they should
2) Players are deterred from casting spells against large (2-3+) groups of enemies
3) Overall inconsistent balancing
4) Any ability with a countdown-timer goes faster than intended (ex: Death Sentence).  Players need to play at higher speed, changing pacing to a potentially less enjoyable state
5) Degenerate "cursor hover lock" exploit

I played another amazing mod a while ago for FF6 (called Brave New World) and since the game also suffered from this issue, they ended up fixing this same issue somehow. Again, this might be a lot to ask, but I think all the awesome balancing that's been done in this mod would be a lot more consistent with this fix.

I understand this goes really deep into combat mechanics, and like I said earlier, this can also be of personal taste/preference. I'm not really here to debate which one is best for whom, but I only wanted to provide my own personal point of view on what I think would make the combat (again, arguably) a lot better.

That being said, this mod is by far the best one I've seen for FF7. I'm about a third of the way in and it's making me experience the game in a whole new way, and I'm extremely thankful for the work you've done. I also registered on this forum just to post this, since there still seems to be quite a bit of support for this mod. Keep up the awesome work!

UpRisen

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7476 on: 2019-01-16 10:46:23 »
Beacause is a field script overhaul. NT also HEAVILY adjust field scripts. The amount of work to make them compatible is astronomical if not impossible.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7477 on: 2019-01-16 17:24:37 »
.

This is the situation with combining BC and NT:

Both affect event scripting and dialogue, and the automation tools we have aren't able to discern what is a critical script and what isn't. That means we have to take a field's script in its entirety when combining mods. So that would mean some fields would be using only BC scripts, and others would only be using NT scripts; besides the technical problems that could cause with mis-matched variables, etc. it would also be an incomplete experience of both mods.

Same goes with dialogue; even if we took all the BC text and ported it in, some of it would be mismatched due to NT's custom field scripting and a lot of the item pickups would likely display the wrong item (as these are unfortunately written as regular field text and not retrieved by the game based on the acquired item's ID).

However, all that only applies to automation. The process can be done manually and could probably be done so that both mods work seamlessly together given a tweak here and there. Best approach is to take the BC mod as a base then apply the NT scripts onto it; I'd likely be the best bet for that because I know where most of my scripts are and how they behave (plus it'd give me a chance to clean the older ones a bit and make them tidy).

So here's an idea; I was going to make a NT 2.0 after I was done with FF8 NT's Disc 1. What I could do instead is use a finished BC as a base for that and kill two birds with one stone. I'd also be able to set up the NT text in such a way that porting between BC and NT dialogue can be done without issues via touphscript to avoid issues with wrong text/out of context dialogue.

As for right now, you'll need to decide to either wait on that (could be months), or to play BC or NT. NT does have a text overhaul but it's not based on the Japanese or anything (though I referred to the translation whenever I hit a scene that I was struggling with).


.

If the top menu froze ATB, then you would be essentially forced to act with that character in order to get it moving again. When playing I'll sometimes delay on a turn to let an enemy act and see what he's going to do while letting the other character's gauges fill up.

There does seem to be inconsistency with certain cast animations though. I think it can happen with Limits that it keeps running under certain conditions but I'm not sure what the exact circumstances were; it might be different for each animation file if the game locks/unlocks ATB based on what animation frame its on.

I think the countdown timers go slower on slow speeds but faster on fast speeds so adjusting the ATB speed would probably work against you in that case. Gauge speed is a potential problem when paired with ATB behaviour because it can make status effects resolve too quickly; this is particularly problematic when Barriers are being taken into account with balancing.

Didn't really see the wait trick as too big a deal. Its benefit depends mostly on speed differences and it's mostly only used in speedruns or challenge runs where the mechanics need to be pushed and the fights tightly controlled.

FF7 could benefit more from such a patch than FF6 due to the longer attack animations, but it's not my preference. I found it made things restrictive and clunky when I was going through BNW's ATB patch; in my mind balance is fine so long as it doesn't impede the fun or the flow. I don't want to sit and wait on every single animation, I want things to be moving along.

If such a hack does come up though then it'll (probably) be compatible with NT out of the box as the game is split into separate files unlike a ROM. I'll ask people about it on discord and see if they know more about the inner workings of the ATB system.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-16 17:26:35 by Sega Chief »

Drexl

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7478 on: 2019-01-17 20:58:26 »
This is the situation with combining BC and NT:
[snip]

Thanks for the response. I figured there had to be more to it than there appeared to be on the surface level. I might wait. After all, I have a massive back-log of games on Steam to catch up on anyway.

EstinaDaemon

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7479 on: 2019-01-25 20:27:34 »
I've run into an issue with my current playthrough of 1.5 and I'm wondering if there's an easy fix for it.

For some reason, Cait Sith's starting stats upon joining the party seems to be incorrect; their spread is 10/5/11/13/11/15 (taking into account removing gear bonuses and materia).

They're currently level 31, and I haven't used any sources on them. Is there anything I should set their stats to using Ochu or such, or should I try to reload an earlier save? I think the stats would still already be set at that point.

EDIT:

Actually, looking at it more closely, I want to ask about how the initial stats are presented in the help document. Namely, what assumptions are there; is this their stats assuming initial materia and equipment loadout, AFTER their pre-banked rank-ups and not taking into account build options?

I'm curious to know what their raw stat values are supposed to be without taking any of those into account.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-25 21:03:37 by EstinaDaemon »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7480 on: 2019-01-26 16:39:40 »
I've run into an issue with my current playthrough of 1.5 and I'm wondering if there's an easy fix for it.

For some reason, Cait Sith's starting stats upon joining the party seems to be incorrect; their spread is 10/5/11/13/11/15 (taking into account removing gear bonuses and materia).

They're currently level 31, and I haven't used any sources on them. Is there anything I should set their stats to using Ochu or such, or should I try to reload an earlier save? I think the stats would still already be set at that point.

EDIT:

Actually, looking at it more closely, I want to ask about how the initial stats are presented in the help document. Namely, what assumptions are there; is this their stats assuming initial materia and equipment loadout, AFTER their pre-banked rank-ups and not taking into account build options?

I'm curious to know what their raw stat values are supposed to be without taking any of those into account.

Those stats looks like they were set using a default .exe. For cait + vincent, their starting stats are held in the exe rather than the kernel. If .exe isn't patched then this also means that other things would have been off; sources only giving +1 instead of +5, materia equip effects being different, etc.

Cait Sith - Starting Stats
42/22/33/13/16/53

#Vincent - Starting Stats
39/40/41/38/21/10

EstinaDaemon

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7481 on: 2019-01-26 19:54:33 »
Ah! I guess that explains it. Early on I was messing with the exes and a trainer because the last time I had played I messed up with the .exes and had to fix things mid-game. I noticed sources weren't being applied correctly, nor the materia, so I redownloaded the IRO and got the ff7_bc.exe out of it (since I'm using the menu overhaul) and things seemed to work after that. But I didn't start a fresh new game so I guess Cait and Vincent both still had their values messed up. I only just find out now though after getting Cait. Can I still edit the values to their default?

Thanks for the explanation.

EDIT:

Actually, I notice the default values you give don't match what's in the Readme.txt. Are those the raw values without gear/materia changes? And if so, do you have the values for the other characters? I just want to make sure I can fix mine if the values in the readme include their gear and materia loadout at first availability. On that note, I'm also not sure how, if possible, I can fix the HP/MP values too... darn. I'm not sure I'm up for a complete restart at this point x.xa

EDIT 2: Ok, I'm confused now. I'm testing a new game and looking at stats in Ochu; Cait Sith's are 42/41/40/39/28/29, so that's not right. Vincent's are 112/65/81/75/71/46. I know sources work with the FF7_BC.exe I'm using and I thought Materia had the right values... something like -15 VIT and INT on Elemental? +3 VIT/INT and +3% MaxHP on Barrier?

EDIT 3: I've taken an Ochu screenshot ( https://imgur.com/KSst4Ea ) of the values from starting a new game. I just extracted a fresh ff7_bc.exe from the emergency exe folder in the standalone, but I was using the 7H setup. Is there something about the 7H setup and where the exes from that come from that work differently for 1.5?
« Last Edit: 2019-01-26 21:43:16 by EstinaDaemon »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7482 on: 2019-01-27 14:09:11 »
When you start a new game, the stats for cait + vince are initially Young Cloud + Sephiroth. These values are then overwritten by the exe when cait/vince join the group.

The readme values might be out of date as well.

EstinaDaemon

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7483 on: 2019-01-27 18:15:43 »
Ah. Alright, that makes sense. Though I also noticed that Yuffie's stats seem to differ from the readme. I compared everyone's to what I was getting from Ochu on a new game, and the only ones that seem to differ from the readme are Yuffie's, Cait Sith's and Vincents - and now I know why for the latter two due to Y. Cloud and Sephiroth.

Is there an up-to-date list of the base stats for 1.5 available somewhere? And has HP/MP been tweaked too? I'm not sure how to fix that if that's also messed up. I'm a little nervous about starting a new game and getting all the way back to Kalm or Corel and finding that it's still bugged somehow.

EDIT: Oh, right... and it looks like the sum of everyone's stats are supposed to fall into a 150-170 range, Vincent and Cait Sith included (though if using the values you provided they're more around 170-190), but Cid tops out at 207. Is this intentional due to their late arrival into the party?
« Last Edit: 2019-01-27 18:20:40 by EstinaDaemon »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7484 on: 2019-01-27 22:52:26 »
Ah. Alright, that makes sense. Though I also noticed that Yuffie's stats seem to differ from the readme. I compared everyone's to what I was getting from Ochu on a new game, and the only ones that seem to differ from the readme are Yuffie's, Cait Sith's and Vincents - and now I know why for the latter two due to Y. Cloud and Sephiroth.

Is there an up-to-date list of the base stats for 1.5 available somewhere? And has HP/MP been tweaked too? I'm not sure how to fix that if that's also messed up. I'm a little nervous about starting a new game and getting all the way back to Kalm or Corel and finding that it's still bugged somehow.

EDIT: Oh, right... and it looks like the sum of everyone's stats are supposed to fall into a 150-170 range, Vincent and Cait Sith included (though if using the values you provided they're more around 170-190), but Cid tops out at 207. Is this intentional due to their late arrival into the party?

I'm absolutely terrible for keeping my documentation up to date.

The stats originally were set up to be within a certain range but it can lean based on what stats are being used. Cid's is a bit higher because Luck needs a little extra to make itself more noticeable; he's pretty dire with Magic, Spirit, and Dex which can be a big set-back.

HP/MP-wise, I think Vincent and Cait Sith are slightly different. Cait has a lot of HP, but rock-bottom MP to account for his MP regen. Vincent has low HP/MP but strong bases to make better use of his limit forms. I think that was the rationale I had for it.

These are the stats from the kernel; one thing to note is that Cloud's starting HP is for Lv.6 but the others are at Lv.1 until they join.
Code: [Select]
]
Cloud:  43/28/27/32/16/14 - 314/54
Barret: 45/43/09/37/08/12 - 222/15
Tifa:     47/12/23/18/42/09 - 219/16
Aeris:   22/11/47/22/32/25 - 177/23
Red:     35/27/32/25/35/12 - 221/17
Yuffie:   37/08/38/11/50/12 - 100/05 (05 MP will default to 10MP, as this is minimum value)
Y. Cloud:    42/42/40/39/38/29 - 1583/192
Sephiroth:  112/65/81/75/71/46 - 7264/529
Cid:       50/34/12/10/11/90 - 223/15

I think materia equipped will affect the stats. So Aeris, Red, Yuffie, Seph, and Y. Cloud will have different values. So long as .exe is patched and the kernel has the updated weapon texts, item effects, etc. then it should be fine.

eXistenZe

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7485 on: 2019-01-28 09:25:33 »
Did you improve Vincent' limits somehow in your mod? If I remember correctly, he was horrible to use since you would loose control over him.
The first time I used him I got game over from using the first form in a fire absorbing enemy.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7486 on: 2019-01-28 11:39:52 »
Did you improve Vincent' limits somehow in your mod? If I remember correctly, he was horrible to use since you would loose control over him.
The first time I used him I got game over from using the first form in a fire absorbing enemy.

Not really worked on them, the base power of the physical attacks was lifted and the AI favours the magic ability over the physical; those were the only changes on that front.

Ethario

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7487 on: 2019-01-29 19:51:16 »
Segachief you may have already heard about this project but I wanted to ask anyway.

https://captrobau.blogspot.com/2019/01/ff7-remako-hd-graphics-mod-beta-released.html

Its a very interesting project that restores the backgrounds in the game in HD. So my question was your thoughts and do you see this being compatible with a new threat ?

eXistenZe

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7488 on: 2019-01-29 20:13:20 »
Hey. Do you have a descriotion on the differences between normal and arranged modes?
Also, did anyone make a mini faq with an ordered "get this, get that" with equipment abailable in NT through the story?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7489 on: 2019-01-30 01:03:23 »
Segachief you may have already heard about this project but I wanted to ask anyway.

https://captrobau.blogspot.com/2019/01/ff7-remako-hd-graphics-mod-beta-released.html

Its a very interesting project that restores the backgrounds in the game in HD. So my question was your thoughts and do you see this being compatible with a new threat ?

If you pack that mod up as an IRO, and run NT's IRO with it, then it should be.

Hey. Do you have a descriotion on the differences between normal and arranged modes?
Also, did anyone make a mini faq with an ordered "get this, get that" with equipment abailable in NT through the story?

On Arrange enemies get a level boost and you'll be dealing with some different boss fights; sometimes it's the same boss but with a spin, other times it's a different boss.

ariksu

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7490 on: 2019-02-02 07:01:39 »
@sega chief, thank you for your great work, it is magnificent.

I have a question about new threat patch. Opening post states
Quote
(patch files) are for the Stand-alone installer only and should not be used if the 7H IRO version is being played.

Does that mean that IRO is already patched, or that IRO was never patched?

I also found in IRO version that door puzzle in ShinRa bldg floor 63 somehow not working. Is it intentional?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7491 on: 2019-02-02 22:27:34 »
@sega chief, thank you for your great work, it is magnificent.

I have a question about new threat patch. Opening post states
Does that mean that IRO is already patched, or that IRO was never patched?

I also found in IRO version that door puzzle in ShinRa bldg floor 63 somehow not working. Is it intentional?

The main installer patches the files directly but is large in size; the two files that generally need to be fixed are the scene.bin and flevel.lgp so those two files are given their own hotfix installers if something comes up.

The IRO, however, is much smaller in size as it only contains NT-specific files. Patching it however would be a bit pointless so I usually just make a brand new IRO when fixes are put in; it therefore doesn't need the hotfixes.

Are you checking in with the machine in the bottom-right of the screen before trying to open the doors?

Eevi

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7492 on: 2019-02-04 15:24:40 »
Hi there!

I've really been enjoying this mod so far, but I've hit a snag and realised something might be wrong with my installation. I'm almost at Junon and ranked up my characters for the first time, but I noticed that the sources weren't increasing the stats as much as they weren't supposed to (Only +1 instead of +5). I briefly looked through this thread and found out that it might be an .exe problem, and realised I've been running the normal FF7.exe this entire time (I'm using Tifa's 7H + the Steam version of FF7 and it was running FF7.exe by default). I saw that I was supposed to be using ff7_en.exe from the IRO zip file instead, so I tried to use it. But, when I try and launch the game through 7H with that .exe chosen instead, none of the mods are running anymore, including your New Threat mod. It also doesn't recognise that I have a save file and tries to open the thing up through the Steam launcher, which doesn't seem right.

Do you have any idea what might be wrong, and how I might fix it? Thanks!

EDIT: I just realised I might have been using the right .exe after all since your readme for 'Which EXE to use' says to use the FF7.exe for a 7H game conversion. But that still doesn't explain why the sources weren't working properly! Perhaps I didn't have the mod down far enough in the load order? I tried moving it down to the bottom but that didn't make a difference.

EDIT EDIT: I think the problem was I had a Gameplay/Tweak mod running from 7H. I deactivated it and now the sources are giving the right values. The only issue is that I didn't notice this when I first ranked up Cloud, Barret, Aerith and Tifa.. but I guess I can probably save edit to fix that.
« Last Edit: 2019-02-04 16:48:32 by Eevi »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7493 on: 2019-02-05 01:16:07 »
Which Gameplay Tweak option caused the source problems? It's good for the public to know.

Eevi

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7494 on: 2019-02-05 08:43:03 »
I'm not totally sure, I had Always Run, Increase Sense Limit, and Lucky Tifa on. If I had to guess I'd say it was probably Lucky Tifa. It made her a bit OP anyway so it was probably good to turn it off!

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7495 on: 2019-02-05 08:52:09 »
I see. Well most of those tweaks were created for vanilla gameplay and LONG before this mod was even created, so they were never intended to work alongside most Gameplay mods. Sorry it didn't work out  :|

Yapt

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7496 on: 2019-02-06 06:21:14 »
Is there a materia list somewhere? I just went for master magic but must be missing one

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7497 on: 2019-02-06 15:17:32 »
Is there a materia list somewhere? I just went for master magic but must be missing one

Spoiler: show

Fire, Ice, Bolt, Earth, Poison, Gravity,
Restore, Revive, Heal, Full-Cure
Seal, Mystify, Transform, Exit
Barrier, Time, Destruct, Shield
Comet, Contain, Planet/Ultima

There is an additional Materia called Osmose, but this likely isn't checked for by the function.

spiritualvirtue

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7498 on: 2019-02-07 02:10:57 »
Spoiler: show

Did you remove the ability to revive Aeris? Because that was a feature I really deeply appreciated about this mod. I got passed the cut-scene of her dying, and used the Black Chocobo save-editor to force her back into the game, but now, the game keeps finding various little ways to glitch up on me. So it seems like you did away with that feature, and this makes me very sad.


also, I apologize if I used the "spoil" line wrong, this is my first time responding on this site.

spiritualvirtue

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)
« Reply #7499 on: 2019-02-07 02:45:28 »
in addition to my prior post...

Spoiler: show
I've been reading over the forums and it seems as though you did not remove that feature, because there is a response to another user on jan 8 2019 regarding a way you went about fixing the dialogue after she is revived. My question to you now is whether it is some crazy glitch or not. Because during the scene in which Cloud is walking and carrying Aeris in his arms to drop her in the water, his outfit is light blue, not the traditional deep navy that your mod changed it too, which leads me to believe that something got fucked up along the way. So do you have any idea how I can fix the issue and prevent Aeris from permanently dying?


EDIT: I figured out what the issue was, and I feel like a freaking idiot. You put this wicked awesome dialogue choice just before the big fight and I selected the wrong one, not knowing what the heck was going on.... I'm deeply sorry to have bothered you, and also, since I didn't mention it before, I have been enjoying this mod. This is my second play-through of it now, and I am going to conquer those crafty end-game bosses you put in there this time... Keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to NT FF8!!
« Last Edit: 2019-02-07 03:13:20 by spiritualvirtue »