FFVII on PSP - Again

[James Pond]

Probably you'll delete this Halkun, but I dissagree with you.

FFVII WILL be playable on a PSP soon, I can promise that, its just a case of hacking the firmware.

At current, firmware version 2.0 has been 80% cracked, its just Kernal apps cannot be run flawlessly.  As stated, there is a PSX emu for the PSP.  So where did you get the idea it cant be played?  Get the external hard drive, available worldwide, and then use an iso creation package to copy the discs.  

Its not a case of IF, its a case of WHEN we will be able to play it on the PSP.

And once again, when new firmware is released, you dont have to upgrade, and if anything, buying a new game will require you to go without for maximum of a month without custom apps.  But just look at the speed that the FW's are being craked. its getting faster and faster.

As it happens, I have upgraded my firmware to 2.0 because its been craked AND its got homebrew, there is, in essence, nothing stopping me from playing it on a PSP, except the lack of an emu that will accept ISO images/The way the game runs.

I cant say I understand the architecture of the PSP or its homebrew apps, but I can promise you it will be possible sooner rather than later.

If it can play a game with PS2 (or a tiny bit less) quality graphics, then tbh, PS1 should be piss easy for it, its all about coding it right.

Once again, sorry for making another topic, I just felt that this had to be said.

[but2002]

Its IS possible to play FFVII on the PSP. Its just psp software that allows the PSP to have control over your system and well thats said..  FFVII on PSP.


( Cheesy though.. )

[steven]

But when it is posible there is allways a prob of the psp's controls being 2 short for the game. So you will have to figure out what you can go without

[Darkness]

A 333 MHz processor simply hasn't the power to run FF7 at a reasonable speed, IMO. My Xbox has some trouble running FF7 (particularly videos), so I doubt the PSP's Capability.

Also, PSPSone is still in alpha stages, and the only screens I've seen have been on a PSP Emulator. So basically... it means nothing. Emulators never run at 100% speeds, so you can expect ff7 to be either unplayably slow even if the emulator ever claims to support it.

[Cyberman]

I think if one was recompiling the firmware things would be fine.

I'm not certain about what JP is talking about honestly and since it's a grey area I'm not going to give any insite on the original firmware.  

However, the original firmware may not be needed to run the PS1 variant.  A Fair bit of the data format discovered. I would say roughly 45% of the PS1 unit.  Most of the work is making an engine that will run the original content.

Unfortunately the PS1 movies are in a format that is not .. space concious?
Reencoding the movie data is a legal issue.  Writting an engine to run the original movies is not.

I probably should invest in a DS or PSP (leaning toward DS because Nintendo is not as pertinacious as Sony against homebrew developement).

[Angeousa Quicksilver]

A 333 MHz processor simply hasn't the power to run FF7 at a reasonable speed, IMO. My Xbox has some trouble running FF7 (particularly videos), so I doubt the PSP's Capability.

Also, PSPSone is still in alpha stages, and the only screens I've seen have been on a PSP Emulator. So basically... it means nothing. Emulators never run at 100% speeds, so you can expect ff7 to be either unplayably slow even if the emulator ever claims to support it.

But its PSP we are talking about here, the psp, ps, ps2 is made by sony which means they are based on the same system, PSP is almost like a handheld version of PSX.

Thanks for revieving James Pond

[James Pond]

Im not too sure on your last comment there, as im pretty certain that the PS2 chip, the PSP chip and the PS1 chip's architecture are different.

if the PS1 and PS2 chips were the same, they wouldnt need to have put the PS1 chip into the PS2, to enable backwards compatibility


I still strongly beleive there is hope.

[Borde]

Right James Pond.  PSP hardware has nothing to do with the original PSX hardware nor with PS2 one. Their code is completly uncomptible, just like happens between XBOX and XBOX 360. The only way to run it on a PSP is via software emulator and, as stated earlier, the only currently available PSX emulator for PSP is in an extremly early stage. I wouldn't expect to see FF7 running on a PSP for a long while.
I think PSP is powerful enough to run a PSX emulator, but it should be a really optimized one.

[Angeousa Quicksilver]

Im not too sure on your last comment there, as im pretty certain that the PS2 chip, the PSP chip and the PS1 chip's architecture are different.

if the PS1 and PS2 chips were the same, they wouldnt need to have put the PS1 chip into the PS2, to enable backwards compatibility


I still strongly beleive there is hope.

no I dont mean that they have same chip, I mean they are still pretty the same but with different specs. PSX and PS2 on both you can dump bios. What I mean is that they are using same kind of system, loading bios ->load game

[Sad Jari]

By that logic even PC is similar system. It loads a BIOS, before it can do anything else.


EDIT: Of course PC doesn't really use BIOS after it has managed to get the OS running; I think that modern OS in modern PC controls pretty much all the hardware directly?

[James Pond]

Cant remember who told me it, but i think windows XP is not a dos based system like win 98 and 2000 are....

[Darkness]

A 333 MHz processor simply hasn't the power to run FF7 at a reasonable speed, IMO. My Xbox has some trouble running FF7 (particularly videos), so I doubt the PSP's Capability.

Also, PSPSone is still in alpha stages, and the only screens I've seen have been on a PSP Emulator. So basically... it means nothing. Emulators never run at 100% speeds, so you can expect ff7 to be either unplayably slow even if the emulator ever claims to support it.

But its PSP we are talking about here, the psp, ps, ps2 is made by sony which means they are based on the same system, PSP is almost like a handheld version of PSX.

Thanks for revieving James Pond

Well... you're wrong. Sorry.

It should also be noted that the PSP firmware does a *lot* more than that of PS2 or PSX.

[halkun]

I *REALLY* don't want this in tech releated, but I'll make a pass on it, as I'm compelled to offer my 2 cents in this discussion.

1) I own a PSP and have the toolchain to make homebrew applications. Far from me to be an "expert" I can tell you a thing or two about the PSP.

The PSP actually has an MMU, putting it a leg up over the original PSX. What's even more intresting is they are actually using the protection rings to keep unauthorized code from running on the system. (At least, they are trying to. See below)

The problem with Sony is they make great hardware, but have probably the worst application developers on the planet. I swear to god, when I got the example code from my PS2 dev kit, I nearly went cross-eyed looking at that garbarge. Sony seems to have thier hardware engeneers actually develop code for whatever they are making as opposed to creating a spec for other, (Much more qualified) programmers to adhere too.

It's really messy.

Anyway, back to the PSP.

The kernel runs in ring 0, and is protected. If you are able to deposit code into memory and somehow get it to execute, you will have no access to any kenrel functions and pretty much limits your program to 64k with simple instructions. Things like hardware registers, memory allocation,  and other goodies are pretty much blocked.

Now, the 2.0 to 1.5 degrader did a neat hack where it overwrote the version number checked by the updater. The updater, knowing no better, gladly downloads and runs the 1.5 update.  When the downgrade happens, there is a lot of invalid "garbage" in the flash ram (2.0 extended data) that requires a reflash of the data area (Scary!) but it does it.

The 1.5 bios and below doesn't actively check if the code being executed is signed by Sony. The 1.51 bios and above does

The GTA hack buffer-overruns signed code. That was Rockstar's bad.

Anyway, let's return to FF7 shall we?

The PSP and the PSX are not compatible. The PSX runs in a non-memory managed environment with calls to hardware functions via non-protected syscalls to the BIOS. The PS2 can handle the backward compatibilty because 1) The I/O Processor of the PS2 is an R3000A, which converts itself into a true PS1 CPU after a PS1 disk is authenticated. 2) The PS2 bios can still catch the syscalls and translate them into ps2 hardware calls. 3) The GPU can run without the EE in a PSX compatibity mode and accept PSX hardware calls. 4) The PS2, even though having an MMU, can run in a non-protected mode.

To get a PSX program to run in the PSP, it will requre the bios to accept non-protected syscalls. That's not going to happen as it sets up a security risk to compromise the system. Also, there is no secondary CPU to run the native PSX code like there is in the PS2.

The PS2 is compatible because there's a PS1 built in it. The PSP has no such animal.

Now, will the PSP be able to run a PSX emulater in the future? Maybe. however it will be nowhere near the proformance of the native hardware of the PS2.

An emulator is just a dream right now, if they get one working, then we can examine how to put FF7 on the go. Hoever, I'm sure people more familiar with the emulator itself will be working on it. FF7 is somewhat of a "killer app" to have emulated.

So upshot, if an emulater comes out, I'm sure FF7 will be one of the most demanded applications anyway and we are pretty powerless to do anything to help or hinder the progress.

Now, if you wish to discuss emulation on the PSP in the future, I would suggest the General forum. It's better suited for that kind of discussion.

I'm keeping this thread open on the chance an intelligent technical discussion han happen here on the subject. I'll see how it goes.

[sfx1999]

BTW, I was reading the other thread and a post said that the PSX had a 233 MHz processor. That is wrong. It is more like 33 MHz.

Anyway, the only way I can see it being possible if the PSP uses a MIPS based processor. I don't think it does. It is probably ARM based. If it was MIPS based, it would be possible to reroute function calls. It would still need to have enough RAM.

Also, the PSP would need to be able to transfer the movies from the memory card fast enough.

[Cyberman]

BTW, I was reading the other thread and a post said that the PSX had a 233 MHz processor. That is wrong. It is more like 33 MHz.

I'm not sure what they said.. it's kind of inconsequential now isn't it?

Anyway, the only way I can see it being possible if the PSP uses a MIPS based processor. I don't think it does. It is probably ARM based. If it was MIPS based, it would be possible to reroute function calls. It would still need to have enough RAM.

Hmmm I suggest going to some place like ...   <spends 2 minutes looking> http://www.oopo.net/consoledev/ before saying what you think is in a PSP.  It's based on the EE (think PS2 system) which is MIPS R5K based.  This means it does have some significant differences between the PS1's R3K series as well as being very different from ARM instruction set simultaneously

Also, the PSP would need to be able to transfer the movies from the memory card fast enough.

Yes this is an interesting issue actually since the PSP mem cards are Sony's proprietary/patented Memstick thing. I think it's 'speed' limit is something like 12-16mbps which faster than USB 1.1 at least. So to answer your question, it depends on what format and how the movies were compressed. On the PS1 the movies were read at 320kBbps so ... it's a non issue considering how little compression the original movies had on the PS1 (32khz adpcm stero with motion JPEG compression 15 fps 320 x 224).

I shall try to put things in perspective.  Research shows it's possible to do.  (Running FF7 on the PSP) Implementation is really the issue, not weather it's possible IT IS possible.  However, before suggesting putting bigger batteries in your toy car is a better way to get more speed (analogy of the discusion), spend some time researching (like I did).  Emulating the PS1 hardware as Halkun pointed out is not going to be close too easy.  This leaves altering the binary images themselves and removing the old BIOS calls and multithreaded kernal out or making a new set of executables all together as the most efficatious route.  Essentially you have to replace the low level portion of FF7 (the part that loads from the PS1 disk) The other binaries depend on this.  So the remaining binaries likely will need major changes as well. No matter which way you go. there is considerable work necessary to complete it.  

You should read GEARS before you continue discusing this as it has a lot of what the binaries DO in FF7.  This will elucidate much of what has been being carefully hinted at.

The real debate is to emulate or run the content through a new engine.  I believe the later is the faster route.  Might be interesting to see if the MDEC Motion JPEG movies are playable from the original game disks on the PS1 version (via USB CDROM).

Cyb

[The Skillster]

Did anyone read what I had posted in the first FF7 on PSP thread?
Iso size and file size if not an issue, ISO are compressed and stored on the flash memory (Memory stick etc) and there are Emulator plugins that will decompress them on the fly.

Using a 400Mhz Arm Ipaq Pocket PC I was unable to get any acceptable speed from a PSX Emu to suggest FF7 is playable on the ARM / Intel Xscale platform OR the PSP without GPU hardware assistance (Nvidia and Ati Mobile chips and DirectX support).

You can look for tutorials that allow you replace all the fmv in FF7 with a 30 second blank video and hackout unused bits off the FF7 Discs and then compress them down to 130-250MB each.

[Angeousa Quicksilver]

You could put all the game files into 1 USo file, the for the other discs u could use dummy ISO files, to trick it into thinking the X cd is inserted. But about if its possible to run or not, I dunno u guys maybe are right.

[The Skillster]

i dont think it is possible to trick it like you say
because as soon as you point to Emulator to the dummy iso, it will unload the original iso - which is where the data is - which in the end is kind of useless.

[Cyberman]

So in summary you suggest ignoring movies is the best route? Hmmm emulating the R3K at 33mhz isn't a big deal as a 300mhz Pentium 2 could run FF7 a bit slowly on a 3dfx card (that's what I did for a while ).  The big issue is the display system as you have acertained. Also MDEC's would die horribly because these require inverse DCT transforms 15 times a second on a large volume of data then the software in R3000 code has to copy this to the display buffer, via DMA or software.  Excluding all the audio data .. it's not a 'fun' task.

Using an emulator makes it possible, personally I think making an engine to run the original content is probably going to run better all around.

Cyb

[The Skillster]

But if the MDECs are replaced by blank videos (as done to reduce the ISO size) this issue may not be apparant.
I know the reducing works, since I have played FF7 on a Pocket PC (400Mhz Arm and about 64MB ram Pocket PC 2003).
You have to remove a summon as well if I remember - Bahumat Zero and KOTR in order to reduce the size right down.

Actually the guide to do this has been taken down, however PocketISO does rip FF7 and FF8 and lets you choose which FMVs to rip/replace

[Angeousa Quicksilver]

I believe FF7 on PSP is possible now, im 100% sure it'll work

SOny will be releasing 4gb+8gb pro ms duo later on
http://www.atraclife.com/2006/01/07/4gb-8gb-ms-pro-duo-sony-ces-2006-day-3/

EDIT: Thought PSP only supports 4 gb, ut Fanjita (hacker) is trying to find a way of putting FAT32 on PSP http://www.fanjita.org/

and a there also a way of trimming your PSP to its maximum speed 333mhz

http://www.ballofodd.co.uk/psp/exclusives.htm

(kidding )

This is the link

http://www.hacker.co.il/psp/bochs/

u can see Windows 95 and Linux running on Linux

[Borde]

Yes, you can use Bosch to run Windows 95, but did you read about the speed? It's completly horrible. And that's plain Windows, no DirectX involved at all. If FF7 ever gets to run in an emulator on a PSP,  you can be pretty sure that it won't be on a PC emulator.

[Angeousa Quicksilver]

Yes, you can use Bosch to run Windows 95, but did you read about the speed? It's completly horrible. And that's plain Windows, no DirectX involved at all. If FF7 ever gets to run in an emulator on a PSP,  you can be pretty sure that it won't be on a PC emulator.

lol, FF7 is not going to run on windows 95, its going to run on a homebrew emulator

[Darkness]

Yes, you can use Bosch to run Windows 95, but did you read about the speed? It's completly horrible. And that's plain Windows, no DirectX involved at all. If FF7 ever gets to run in an emulator on a PSP,  you can be pretty sure that it won't be on a PC emulator.

lol, FF7 is not going to run on windows 95, its going to run on a homebrew emulator

No, its not.

[Cyberman]

My question is Angeousa Quicksilver how much time do you expect all this 'magically created' software to be written in?  I believe you are unrealistically approaching this.  It will take nigh unto several months before something tolerable can be made.  
Making a custom 'emulator' for the wind-dos version is silly too.

You are much better off doing so for the PS1 version instead. Sorry.

Cyb