Author Topic: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!  (Read 59046 times)

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #300 on: 2020-05-12 20:40:16 »
Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better).

When did I say that I do not agree that it's better? I do believe that the part one of the remake is way better than the original game's Midgar section. I just said above, I don't want the same plot. I don't need the same plot. I know the original plot and I have it available to me, whenever I want, on pretty much every device I own. I wanted something with changes, something with differences, something NEW to look forward to and I got all that. Hell, I would even prefer a certain level of disappointment with some scenes than just being "eh it's all the same".

And this is MY opinion. It's not a fact and it's 100% subjective.

Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?

Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.

That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.

And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.

You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.

You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.

Dude...

By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.

You can put whatever you want on any menu you want. It's the beauty of capitalism. Again you missed the entire point and came up with a dumb example.
If your restaurant's menu consisted of food I considered disgusting, we would never even get to that dessert stage. However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one. I will not blame a restaurant for selling me a product that contains an ingredient I don't like, when I knew it contained said ingredient and still chose to purchase it. It would be 100% my problem. I have no idea why the food topic is even still a thing.

See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.

...Nah. I'm out.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-12 20:45:04 by -Ric- »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #301 on: 2020-05-12 22:27:49 »
Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.

You have a bad relationship with logic I see. Sure, your opinion would be subjective (as long as it isn't backed by a reasoning) but it wouldn't matter. "Objective" is not "Gospel". "Objective" is a statement all parties in a discussion agree about and "objective" are the conclusions stemming from that statement if logically connected.

If you agree that: FF7 didn't need more contrivance (premA) and the addition add more contrivance (premB) then you recognize that the addions are a problem (conclusion). It's not that the two premises are biblical truth, it's just the connection that is logic and sound, assuming we all accept the premises.

A correct objection would be: I love even more contrived plots, so I don't agree with you at all. <---------- that would be objective, as THERE IS A LOGIC CONNECTION and I couldn't deny it. It doesn't matter at all if YOU like contrivance and I don't, or if YOU like contrivance and the whole rest of humanity doesn't, your reasoning would still be valid. It's the connection that  makes it valid.

And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.

Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".

You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.

Dude...

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things  that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude

Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.



However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one.

Given the desperate level of fanboyism you're showing, I highly doubt it.

I am making food examples to show how hard you're trying to make excuses for someone who marketed their product as something different, crammed an extraneous plot device after assuring everyone for months that they wouldn't do exactly that, and risked it all leaving ultimately a bad aftertaste  in many of us.

And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.

 
...Nah. I'm out.

I sympathize with your inability to follow.

Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #302 on: 2020-05-12 22:53:35 »
It has nothing to do with following a discussion. You keep contradicting yourself, putting words in my mouth and coming back with fallacious arguments and examples that are just plain silly.

Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".

What a stupid, disingenuous example. But I'll entertain it. Yes, it's actually OKAY to have that opinion.

I personally do not care if you do. Wanna know what I care about? The fact that at least in most civilized places, there are laws in place to deal with people  that act on such opinions. I give no shits if you think it's ok to beat someone up, rob a bank or commit mass murder, as long as you're unable to do any of it or get promptly punished if you somehow manage to.

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things  that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude

Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.

Again you misinterpret what I said. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but at this point, it's obvious that it's on purpose.
Let's break it down:

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same! <- Never said that.
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different <- Never said that
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next <- Completely misinterpreted. I never flat out said you'd be loving the ending. I don't know if you would or not nor do I care. I said, and I quote:

Quote
If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

Read it again. If you had never played the original, that you would MOST LIKELY be excited for part 2 and to know what the ending of part one was all about. Then proceeded to point out that my reason for believing that you would MOST LIKELY be excited for it is the fact you've claimed to have loved many other things about the remake.
Then told you to stop claiming that your comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH PURISM since you keep referring back to the original game for comparisons.

To which you gloriously replied, and I quote

Quote
You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.

Right there you admit that having played the original IS a factor in both your current experience and future release expectations.

And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.

Again, another complete misinterpretation of what I said. I will again quote myself directly.

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

Nowhere did I "fail" to handle your or accept anything you said. I straight up told you that I'm absolutely fine with your opinion. But that it is all that it is. An opinion.

Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.

I know it does make you wonder. Which is why I'm out. I won't entertain your misinterpretations, dumb examples, and fallacious arguments any further. I will end it the way I started. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-13 01:51:48 by -Ric- »

Kefka

  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #303 on: 2020-05-13 11:09:31 »
@IlMomo86:

Alright, here's my 2 cents on some of your points. I've left the other points which we agree upon out since there won't be much more to say about them anyway.

1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.

I see what you mean, I have been thinking that maybe part of the reason for the different approach in both games also stems from changes in the real world during the last 2 decades: Mass surveillance via cameras at every street corner wasn't around in 1997, it only started to gradually become a thing after 9/11. The 90's were that peaceful time between the Cold War and the new age of global terrorism, so there was no need for mass surveillance back then, which is perhaps why the developers of the original neglected it. Today we have it in every major city, so the developers probably wanted to include that in a modern version of the game as well so that the game's level of technological progress would still look futuristic. The original game did look futuristic for 1997 standards even without mass camera surveillance, but I guess it wouldn't look like that anymore today when even we have cameras everywhere in the real world.

But then again, wouldn't a camera network in the Shinra headquarters make Mayor Domino's work for Avalanche even more difficult, or impossible? It's not that I'm against expanding his character in general, I just found the location he uses as a base for his Avalanche support to be somewhat ridiculous.

On a funny side note, the original DID have a camera surveillance system in the headquarters (you see it in a brief FMV when first riding the elevator to the 60th floor), but the dude responsible for watching the monitors was just sleeping on his job, lol! ;D

2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.

I agree that uniting people with terror might be a viable strategy for Shinra, but I also think they could've achieved that without blowing such a huge whole into their own wallet. We're never given exact numbers as to how rich Shinra really is or how long the reactors have been around, but Cid mentions that they discovered Mako energy sometime after the failed rocket launch. We don't know how many years ago the launch was, but Cid was already an adult back then and he's now 32, so the reactors must've accumulated Shinra's enormous wealth over a very short time frame (a decade perhaps). From this I conclude that each reactor must be worth an unimaginable fortune, one that an intelligent company wouldn't sacrifice so easily. Even if Shinra managed to kill all of Avalanche in such a reactor explosion, they still couldn't consider that a victory, as the financial damage to themselves would likely outweigh the strategic gains.

Especially since their problems would likely not end after Avalanche's destruction: history has shown us repeatedly that wherever there is an oppressive regime, resistance movements against them will form eventually, some of them going as far as engaging in a military conflict with the regime. So after getting rid of Avalanche completely, it would only be a matter of time until the next Anti-Shinra-group emerges. (The original even hinted at the existence of other rebel groups by implying that such a group sabotaged the Corel reactor, so the possibility of a repetition is there.) I doubt that the company could continue the reactor-blowing strategy every time such a group hits the scene, even with the Neo-Midgar plan as a backup.

Neo-Midgar is probably still a long way off, considering that it relies on them first finding the promised land (and at the time of the bombings they didn't even have Aerith yet), and building such a gigantic metropolis would surely take some time as well, possibly decades. Hojo's research on the Ancient would probably also be a factor on their time table (although the 120 years stated in the original were probably too much, lol). Therefore nuking the reactors seems risky to me considering that the availability of Neo-Midgar is not yet certain.

Their Wutai-plan will depend on what the developers decide to do with Wutai in general, but I imagine there'll be some changes as well. In the original Godo says at the Pagoda that Wutai had lost the war, but in the remake (I don't remember the exact moment, help me please) it was stated somewhere that they only have an armistice, and that fighting could break out again if tensions should rise. One can only speculate where this will go.

3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.


The group doesn't know it, but the PLAYER knows it. My point here was that the original game had ethics and morality as one of its core themes by urging the player to think about Avalanche's actions and – since the player is the one controlling Avalanche – even scrutinizing their own role in the game. By making it clear to the player that Avalanche is not responsible for civilian deaths in the city due to Shinra causing the larger explosion, they removed the need for the player to question his party's actions. Avalanche is still in a moral gray area, but they're no longer murderers themselves, presenting them as more innocent to the audience. The theme of ethics and morality may still be present in the overall game, but not to the same degree anymore, imho.

4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.

The President's first speech at the reactor sounded more sophisticated, I agree. And yeah, his death scene was the writers' fault.

7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.

Agreed on the interesting concepts, I actually love the train graveyard and would've wished that it was longer in the original game (looked so cool!). I would often spend my time there farming Ethers from Deenglows and Striking Staffs from Eligors for sale later on. The longer dungeon itself didn't bug me, it was only the characters' slow and time-wasting behavior during the cutscenes there. Even if they doubt Corneo, as long as even a small possibility remains that he said the truth they probably shouldn't risk being too late.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me about the Deepground lab, 100% agree with you there. There wasn't any reason to even go there other than rescuing Wedge, who should not have survived in the first place.

8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience.

True, we never get exact numbers about the death tolls in either game, so some of it is left up to imagination. Since the original never mentions any survivors (doesn't mean that there weren't) and the remake shows you a lot of them, my assumption is that in the original the majority died, while in the remake the majority survived.

9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.

Wow, I didn't notice that at first, thanks! I had to watch some scenes again to verify that they do indeed look like Jesse's gloves. So if every single Avalanche member from Barret's group survived, it makes the entire plate drop feel even more meaningless. Wholeheartedly agree.

10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way  to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.

13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.

Hojo's line and Jenova: Yeah I get it too why they did both. I think their decision to make the first game Midgar-only was already a mistake, as that seemingly created more problems than it solved. They wanted to include important stuff from the FF7 story, but Midgar was simply too early for some of that. Had they decided to make Part 1 longer (cargo ship at least), they would've had more room for those story elements and could've avoided many narrative problems. And in Hojo's case, I'm sure Nomura just wanted another opportunity to show off his beloved fate-ghosts, lol. ;D

16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.

Actually we DO agree on this one! I too think that the whole whisper-fate-time-travel-nonsense was the worst crime to the story. I merely wanted to bring up some points from other chapters as well because everybody on the internet seems to be talking primarily about chapter 18 when judging the story's writing. I did read your analysis on the game's themes (original and remake), and found it very reasonable. Chapter 18 is the most serious problem indeed, just not the ONLY one, that's all I wanted to say.

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #304 on: 2020-05-13 11:23:35 »
@Ric



Spoiler: show



What a stupid, disingenuous example. But I'll entertain it. Yes, it's actually OKAY to have that opinion.

I personally do not care if you do. Wanna know what I care about? The fact that at least in most civilized places, there are laws in place to deal with people  that act on such opinions. I give no shits if you think it's ok to beat someone up, rob a bank or commit mass murder, as long as you're unable to do any of it or get promptly punished if you somehow manage to.

Sure, in your ideal world every opinion is equal to every other, so it's OKAY to have that opinion. The only important thing is that when you act on that opinion you'll be punished after the damage is done. Indeed, if all opinions are equal and all discussions are void, what's the point of having values, ethics, preferences, education? None at all. 

Indeed it would rise the problem of what exactly labels acting on a OKAY opinion a WRONG conduct, since we cannot at all discuss about an opinion being worse than another, and how can you ever hope to educate, say, a kid that having that opinion is bad, or determine by law that a conduct isn't good; but actually in your book it's pointless, the important thing is that when the kid grows up and beats his own kid, police will come and punish him for acting on its OKAY opinion.
 
This may sound off topic but it shows just how ridicolous and socially disruptive would be your golden principle that opinions hold some sort of sacred validity just by virtue of being opinions.

Again you misinterpret what I said. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but at this point, it's obvious that it's on purpose.
Let's break it down:

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same! <- Never said that.
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different <- Never said that
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next <- Completely misinterpreted.

When someone disowns his own statements you know that there's a problem.
please stop acting as if the original game was perfect and any change to it is automatically negative.
If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.
Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

Yeah, I didn’t quote you word-for-word, but those were your points still.



Then told you to stop claiming that your comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH PURISM since you keep referring back to the original game for comparisons.

Of course we are doing comparisons. Never denied it. Purism would be saying that every change is bad per se, which would entail that I hate everything that has changed. I don't. So just drop it.

Right there you admit that having played the original IS a factor in both your current experience and future release expectations.

Of course it is a factor. Never denied that, as well. Point being, you said it is a NEGATIVE factor and that I don't look with excitement at the next installment only because of my alleged purism. I said that you're wrong twice, first off I AM waiting for the next one with excitement, and second the fact that I loved the original is a factor, YES, but a factor that makes me excited. The contrary of whay you said.

Bottom line is: I dislike the ending not because it's different from the original, not because I hate the devs, not because I don't understand it, not because the game sucked but because THAT ENDING IS BAD NARRATIVE. Which is a very simple point that I invested perhaps even too much time exploring, with concepts and reasonings that not once you bothered to contradict and probably didn't even read.


I know it does make you wonder. Which is why I'm out. I won't entertain your misinterpretations, dumb examples, and fallacious arguments any further. I will end it the way I started. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

Sure. You can quit the discussion anytime you like. Stop doing you will and prosecute the discussion, then. Talk about contradictions.

But you know what? I'll make you a favor. Despite the fact that the one who keeps stating he wants to cut off is you, I will. I will ignore your next reply whatever you write on it. That way you can be at peace.

Not that you bother reading people analysis or opinions (which makes sense, since in your vision opinions shouldn't be confronted at all) but you may notice that Kefka made a very long post of his impressions, some of whom I don't agree with -being on the pro-Remake side of the fence, mostly- but we can discuss in a civilized and logical way about it. And no, "logical" doesn't equal to "agree with me". That's what I enjoy doing, in a thread about DISCUSSING the remake. Not dealing with what is basically an idle repetition of the same three moot points: you're a purist, you're arrogant, my opinion is mine only.

tldr
So there, I concede. I drop my hat to you. Kudos.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-13 11:29:47 by IlMomo86 »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #305 on: 2020-05-13 12:48:47 »
@Kefka

1. Domino and Shinra:
I agree that Domino's execution wasn't 100% believable, but I still think it's an improvement to saying that three guys simply BUSTED in Shinra HQ. I recall the scene with the sleepy camera guard and I had a bit of suspension-of-suspension-of-disbelief there. When Rude catches the team in the elevator I remember thinking: oh, OK,  we ARE getting caught! When a 11yrs old finds a segment hardly believable, something is wrong. Granted, they saved the narration by the fact that you DO get caught in the end, and it's only Seph intervention that turns the tables, whereas Sephiroth's impact in the Remake is less important.

2. The wreck-Midgar/blame Wutai/start Neomidgar plan.
Again, I agree the execution is debatable (and relies much on what Wutai will actually be) but to be fair, it was debatable in the original as well. While there were fans who suspected that the first reactor bombing had something fishy (as Jessie mentions that the explosion was off charts) the second bombing was willingly allowed by Shinra, and the platefall was still their plan. It was also clear in the original that Shinra is somewhat obsessed with the Promised Land way more than the actual feasibility of the plan, somewhat leaving up to debate if the reason was the quick exhaustion of Mako, the pres.Shinra megalomania, or a combination of both. In the Remake, at least, Hojo admits being "using" Shinra and their obsession, which means that at least one among them is aware that the plan is bull. So yeah, overall not that much credible, but a mild improvement I'd say.

3. Moral grey area:
Agreed, they're more on the righteous side, but on the Remake's credit people are more aligned with Shinra in general, and the moral question gets more discussion time.

4. pres.Shinra:
Yeah, a very good speech, which ties into the prophetic tropes of the original game. Back then it was a bit of an hyperbole, nowadays people willingly trading the planet's lifespan for comfort sounds much more fitting.

5. well a whole district DID fall, so the casualties are still pretty high. Though Corneo DOES mention that they were much less than intended.

6. Actually they could solve a lot of problems (including their desperate need to show off and make you fight mr.Sephiroth since part1 and painting some of the themes) with a much simpler choice, ending it at the Nibelheim flashback. I think they scratched the idea because... well because...

7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.
*district falls on Biggs' head*
Me: "way better writing there, guys"
Ending: "Hey, Biggs has a headbump now".
Me "..."

The Black-caped Man

  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • The time........has come........!
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #306 on: 2020-05-13 13:30:39 »
I'd just like to note that the discussion between IlMomo86 and Kefka is the first and only constructive pro/con debate about the remake in this thread so far and I'm quite enjoying following it. Other ppl could learn a lot here about how to try to defend parts of the remake that differ from the original properly;) I agree with you both on certain things, maybe I'll add my own list of questionable decisions(no repetitions of what was said ofc) later.

gjoerulv

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
  • me
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #307 on: 2020-05-13 13:50:42 »
7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.

Nothing wrong with that scene (or that part of the scene rather) purely on its own. In fact, on its own it's very good. When put in context however, it cracks. Again, the immediate scene/moment is the most important thing here for SE, which, to me at least, breaks the immersion (as if it weren't broken a dozen times before in this scene alone lol). When you're in an extreme hurry like this, to prevent a colossal disaster, even when your best friends lies dying, would you really have time for a "last moment speech". Welp, at least any emotionally stable person wouldn't have, but the script makes everyone into emotional idiots because... Muh characters! Muh scene!
In the original, I distinctively remember -the first time I played- that I didn't even talk to Biggs and Jessie because 1: There are things that are way more important now; time is ticking fast. And 2: Maybe they will survive if we can stop the plate from falling; I don't know how badly they are hurt.
To my defense: I was 15 and didn't take the gameplay hints that I actually had as much time as I wanted. Talking to them was out of the question. I think most of you would agree that the tone in this scene is very serious, with a huge emphasis on urgency. And as far as the player knows, you are the only ones with enough fighting skills to actually stop this. Someone else is probably much more suited to look after Biggs and Jessie.

SE, if you are to flesh things out, please have it make sense. Please consider consistency and context. Sure, the whole Domino part has been """fleshed out""", but it doesn't make sense. Actually, as pointed out already, it's made even more ridiculous now. It was wanky enough to begin with; the addition here broke it imo. Even if an insider makes the infiltration more plausible, have it make sense. If you can't make it believable, do not include it. It seems one of the main reasoning here is to make Domino into a good guy, more likable, muh characters(!). If that's the tipping point of your reasoning SE, I'm sorry, that sucks. People will buy it, sure, but it still sucks.

Izban

  • *
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #308 on: 2020-05-14 06:23:51 »
But but but video game logic if there is no timer you have forever to flounder about...

Domino was a forgettable character, his total reason for being is making it more believable to break into shinra hq, which is really out of the scope of figure head mayor boys expected skillset movies make realtime looping of video seem easy but there is a fair bit of technical know-how involved, and a Polly has no chance of being technically minded enough to pull it off seemlessly. Plus he is a whiny self-centred twat waffle.

The stealing of Jessie's dads keycard definitely makes sense if you look at shinra as a corporation seeing people as numbers makes it fairly easy to walk in and out of places so long as you have the right swipe cards... See wearing gear and carrying a ladder, most places will just swipe you in and the places that don't get you to sign in with licences logged so yeah that bit works in real life, this I can share as have actual experience in such things

People surviving as a whole isn't a huge change plot wise cause until you we head back to midgar there is a very good chance nothing changes, Zack is the only exception to this cause he is a pivotal character who kinda set ff7s story ball rolling, him surviving gives a couple of potential time rift problems or gets ignored completely, but until I see how it's handled I can give more then "Zacks alive that's kinda dope" reaction.

I sure as hell enjoy the cult type vibe that shinra as a whole exudes see the business man on the train scene for what I'm talking about, I also like the fact that the is subfactions within shinra see how hojo doesn't let the Turks or public safety know about the infiltration, or even. The Rufus being the founder of avalanche, depend on how they progress the factions we could end up with so really interesting dynamics.

Overall remake is like reading the first book in a saga, spent way more time getting us familiar with the characters then progressing the story, hears hoping part 2 is an SW-esb addition to the story

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #309 on: 2020-05-14 13:27:29 »
@gjoerulv:

1. Biggs&co deaths:
Yeah, I agree, or rather, that was my entire point. Building up so well characters and scaling up to such a perfect goodbye scene, then screwing it all up just because hey, kids shouldn't know that a cool and lovable person can die. What a waste damn.

2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
Agreed, but I don't find it such a serious offense. Sure I expected them to come off with some explicative line such as "Yeah, these keycards are anonymous" or "I need to hack this keycard" because I had your very same qualms. That said, it's not all that relevant I don't think that it makes the whole Jessie's subplot stupid. Still pretty goofy oversight, and would've been so easy to fix too.

3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from, mind you, but truth is, if you're in a dangerous situation and find a friend or comrade lying on the floor, you'd stop by. It's not that you know beforehand that they're going to spend their "goodbye speech time". Either to assess his/her dead status, help him/her get back, assist his/her final moments, or whatever may be the case. Unless you're facing an immediate and frontal threat and therefore cannot come near him/her, you would stop. People usually do, even in war situations. Of course is more efficient to just move out and get back to a safe zone, but the istinct is to assist the injured unless you're a trained coldhearted hitman. Which Cloud claims to be (but isn't) and Tifa absolutely isn't. It feels a tadbit forced, but again, not that serious. In comparison with the fact that those goodbye speeches were for naught, moreso, it's really not an issue.

4. Domino:
Hard call. You see, first off Domino isn't a good guy at all. In both games his whole point is that Shinra Inc has made politician representatives like him obsolete and thus the situation doesn't cater to his ego. In both games he assists Avalanche. In both games he somehow does so under the nose of Shinra Inc without getting caught.
That said:

- In the Original, he does out of a complete whim without any worry for his own safety or convenience while in the Remake, because he is a long-time inside agent of a dubiously aligned and suspiciously well-endowed organization;

- In the Original he is the only lone soul caring that Shinra Inc has essentially erased any other form of upper class
and his assistant somehow doesn't bat an eyelid being involved in a sabotage, while in the Remake he is implied to have is own like-minded followers among whom the assistant, and one follower points out that they're risking much.

- In the Original they bust in because Shinra Inc security staff has no internal communication, doesn't give a f*** about security systems in their emergency stairs and doesn't bother paying a single guard who actually looks the monitors, while in the Remake they manage because Domino purposedly covers their tracks, hijacks communications between security guards and has his own alignment.

- In the original, security cards are just thrown in Cloud, Barret and Tifa's faces by complete strangers if they just bother posing as maintenance (yuk, seems legit!) while in the Remake it was a combination of Domino, Hojo and Seph that made it possibile, without all that sillyness, and their menacing appearance is even addressed by employees here and there and justified by them passing as security SOLDIER operatives.

Now, you can tell me Domino is not that credible of a character and you'd be correct, but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-14 13:52:23 by IlMomo86 »

gjoerulv

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
  • me
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #310 on: 2020-05-14 17:26:17 »
2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
...but I don't find it such a serious offense.

3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from...

4. Domino:
...but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.

What I'm trying to point out are "trailer moments" if you will. And the overall approach: Style over substance.

"Small offenses" like these are all over the place. They are rather small in the grand-scheme, on THEIR OWN. The devil is in the details; details are important to make a believable story, and in the case of FF7R, the details are everywhere.
If a person manages to buy/ignore/accept logical flaws like these, and how many you manage to swallow -and in what frequency- before the story breaks, depends on the person, of course. Everyone is somewhere between 1: "Whatever, just go with it", OR  2: "Everything MUST make 110% sense". Logic is still logic though.
Your own experience, the art-style, the tone and the genre plays a huge part in where on the scale you end up. I wouldn't mind logical inconsistencies in an animated crazy comedy. The realistic art style in FF7R plays a huge role in why much of the stuff doesn't work. I've argued as far back as the release of the 1st trailer that this art style is a huge mistake, and that the story will end up taking a severe hit. Marketing is marketing though, so realistic style it is.
Due to the art style, lack of voice acting and other limitations in the original, the abstraction layer is much deeper. Headcanons are pretty much forced upon the consumer to some extent, and, imo, it works much better than how FF7R tells its story. I dread to think about how current SE would make any of the classic FFs. Welp, we kinda do know, FF7R, lol.

And to comment some of the specifics:
Sure, Cloud having a goodbye moment with Biggs, by itself, doesn't ruin FF7R, far from it. If this was FF7R's only potential flaw, it would still be chained logically together with everything else, and judged accordingly. However, the logical chain, as is, is severely broken in many places, and "trailer moments" like this plays a big part in breaking it.
Besides, the immediate scene here was more important for SE, that's the gist. If it makes sense, which it kinda doesn't, wasn't my main point here. They wanted that scene, and weren't very considerate about anything else. If they were, I dunno, they should have asked someone else to write it.

In these specific cases (goodbye speech, Domino, Tseng's broadcast etc), I'd say, cut them. If you can't make them work, or that they make slightly more AND less sense at the same time, why include them at all? In the case of Domino, the art style, and the overall more dark and gritty tone forced them to do something else, and it only half assedly worked imo. I've wouldn't have included any of it. Then again, how do you connect the scenes? Dunno, not my job lol.

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #311 on: 2020-05-14 20:07:41 »
@DLPB

To the remake's credit, Cloud is more nuanced here. While in the original game you'd see only the "cool uncaring SOLDIER" persona at this stage, in the remake you could clearly notice that the "true" Cloud actually notices and appreciates all the attention and praise he gets from Jessie&co and is slowly warming up to them. Being able to make such subtle nuances visible t's one of the benefits of an Hi-Tech remake.

I agree, you'd stop by Biggs in that situation, but not all that time. It broke my disbelief a little when he mentioned the Leaf House Orphanage out of nowhere in the midst of the battle. If you wanted to make that very good scene when he caresses Cloud's head, you should've made Biggs mention the Leaf House Orphanage in an earlier event; goofy writing.

But here's my point, the scene is in itself forgivable. It's a minor mistake. If you could've fixed it by changing just one sentence (Like in Jessie's dad keycard, a mere "Worry not, the keycards are not traceable") it means that it's not that much of a blunder.

It's the context that makes it unforgivable. Which brings me to the next guy...

@gjoerulv

Just to be clear, I'm arguing with you on the individual quality of some scenes, that's it. "Style over substance" has been S-E motto since many years now and it shows.

FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.

That aside, you said "the devil is in the details" (I thought we had this saying only in Italy, wow). Well I disagree. IF the devil is in the details then Chap18 is either the smallest devil or the biggest detail that I ever witnessed in existence.

What I mean is, sure, Jessie or Biggs or Domino or whatever feel a little forced in certain steps. But you forgive it because you are working toward making a more impactful story in the end.

Except you aren't. Or at least, someone among the writers (I know who I'd pick) isn't. Because you see, they spent time developing the boys in order to make their deaths carry weight... only to make them not dead in the end. They made the Domino part to justify the bust-in... but they removed the capture, the defeat, the imprisonment and the very important Sephiroth part right after.

Long story short, I quite disagree that such mistakes would be a serious offense, if it wasn't for a very misplaced finale that ruins all the trust you've given to the narrators up to that point.

So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.

gjoerulv

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
  • me
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #312 on: 2020-05-14 23:30:11 »
So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.

They would. Trust me they would. The demo made me cringe A LOT. It was already broken before Cloud had entered the reactor. Naive as I am, I thought the storytelling would be good in the beginning AT LEAST. To be fair, reactor 1 is one of the better parts. Still, it broke me. And it was pretty much all the in the details there.

When I say the devil is in the details, I don't try to argue that the small details about this game is its worst aspect. I think everyone agrees the shit at the end is terrible. Even the laziest of minds will detect something off here. And I agree the levels of damage aren't equal. If it weren't for the ending, at least it could continue in some fashion without being accidental comedy.
What I'm getting at is that for me -and many others I'm sure- the story is already broken long before the ending partly because of the small stuff.
Everyone's suspension of disbelief aren't the same. Most/everyone has a different BS level before the immersion breaks. Every scene is littered with small immersion breakers here and there, and the fleshed out story only adds to it (yes, not EVERYTHING is bad, I'm doing broad strokes). I have a hard time getting through some scenes. My BS bucket is getting full fast and every BS drops feels heavier than the last.
Again, if one can handle it, don't care, whatever, then more power to you.

The ending (c18+) is laughably bad. It's comedy. The bad stuff before the ending is more like pain, disbelief, cringe and facepalms. Except for the whisperers. They're comedy too.

Izban

  • *
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #313 on: 2020-05-15 00:15:43 »
FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.

Gotta disagree with you there, ff7 actually had fewer options materia wise at the end of midgar, you only scored fire,ice, lightning, restore,bio before the end of midgar and you only had slash,hit and pierce in physical damage, magic as a whole had a far smaller roll in og7 like lost number was the only time it really played a meaningful roll, with the exception of restore/revive unless you decided player set challenges were a super idea, even the row system didn't really play that much of a roll in normal combat, you were also subject to way fewer status ailments for the midgar section.

The Black-caped Man

  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • The time........has come........!
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #314 on: 2020-05-15 09:08:18 »
But the remake is a 50h game isn't it? Spending 3-4h of gameplay with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Restore/Bio in the OG is justified because the Midgar section should slowly introduce you to the gameplay, story and characters which it does. The gameplay outside of Midgar soon becomes more complex with E-Skill coming online, level 2 LBs, Summons(Chocobo Farm), Earth(Kalm), etc.

Spending 50h in Midgar with just those Materia is definitely a dumb down. If they extend this chapter, they have to extend the gameplay here too which they didn't.

It's kinda not intuitive to me that peoples first arguement when defending the remake is always that extension isn't bad, more story, more characters is good and even used the phrase "better than the OG" while on the other hand for another important aspect(the gameplay and combat system) it seems perfectly fine to them to just do nothing more than the OG although the game is approximately 15 times longer than the OG section up to that point.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-15 09:11:18 by The Black-caped Man »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #315 on: 2020-05-15 13:06:36 »
@Izban

Well, first off, everything The Black-caped Man said.

Second, there are various wrong things in your angle.

Starting with this: no one forced the devs to make the choice they made. No one forced them to make another graphical state-of-art game, which forced them to do a way shorter chapter than they could have with a tadbit less maxed-out visuals. Say, if they had kept the graphics at the FFXIII level (and I dare anyone say that it doesn't look beautiful enough) they would've had way more space and resources to concentrate on content, gameplay, writing. I know they would never do that and financially it would be a risky move, I get it, but it's their strategy, their choice, therefore their responsabilty. It's also their strategy -you know where this is going- to make a Midgar-only chapter and announce it as a "full-fledged rpg" with content enough to rival full titles. Honestly they didn't put a lot of effort in content especially in comparison to their announcements. Now, nobody in the right mind expected the content and game-time to be anywhere near the original game in terms of vastity and variety, but in some sections they were straight-off lazy. Now this is forgiven (by most) because re-interpreting and re-enacting a lot of the memorable moments of one of the most beloved sections of one of the most beloved games of history takes a lot of brain-power and effort.

But long story short making excuses for them because "at this point in the original game we had only..." is absurd. It's them in the first place who asked us to looks at this section as a standalone game. If your chosen path is to make a full-fledged RPG in Midgar, make one.

That said, if you pay attention, you'll notice that the (admittedly very good) gameplay they're lying the foundations for already hints heavily at an oversimplification. Red materia have a disconnected slot; Berserk being put in the "Seal" materia alludes the fact that they want to remove some status ailments; physical damage types have been probably cut entirely (not sure, but it looks that way); unlike what you seem to think, they haven't reduced the access to the elements (meaning: the specific magic materia to access them) they have reduced the CHART of elements, which are now only four plus restore. All this stuff hints at a clear will to cut off and simplify, even if they could perhaps change in the future. S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory; those were games with a lot to say, but never for snobs only.

Which brings to my third point. The gameplay of the original, you say, didn't give that much relevance to spells. Funny you saying it, because it's entirely untrue. The point of the original's gameplay was to give you freedom. In my case, my 11yrs old self was given the freedom to be a complete incompetent. I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way but I was given FREEDOM to do so. I started to get the importance of sonic or shoot or piercing damage years later, though from the visuals I guessed that there was some sort of elemental-physical damage. And that's true for spells as well; no one goes throwing a Firaga to Safer Sephiroth, but in the resource management that goes between the start of a dungeon and the boss, understanding when throwing a Firaga rather than a KoR makes the difference if you want to play it smooth. You are not FORCED to play it smooth, you are not DENIED the chance to go around pressing attack over and over with an over-leveled party, you are not PRESSED to follow the optimal route. Which is what makes the game.

Don't get me wrong, FF7R had a very good gameplay with some really clever design choices, but it's in many aspects yet another occasion in which S-E decided that depth and variety can be forsaken to appeal the modern mass tastes. It's a fresh take, but not always an improvement.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-15 14:33:27 by IlMomo86 »

The Black-caped Man

  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • The time........has come........!
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #316 on: 2020-05-15 16:38:59 »
I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way

I know that from somewhere^^ Guess we had a similar first time experience:)

Quote
S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory;

I can still to this day remember that even in the old Squaresoft days I would play FF7 and FF8 as a kid, have a good time and have no real problem with the complexity of their gameplay and then later be shocked how negative some critics were with them. I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough" while in the end this is a lot simpler than most other FFs...you assign the spell that gives the highest bonus number to each slot, you even have auto optimal assignment options according to what your looking for....apparently that was too hard for some adults to understand....Not to mention you are forced to do all these Quistis tutorials every time you play(not all, but most and I really dislike that theres no option to skip this) that really explain everything thoroughly.

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #317 on: 2020-05-15 17:13:08 »
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"

Interesting thing to say. I had FF8 as a gift a month before it came out in Italy. It was in japanese. I didn't understand a single thing, but I went like, ok let's see how far I can get with what I know. Meaning, I didn't understand A SINGLE THING. I had Guardian Force but I was unable to use those. I had access to spells, but had no idea of how to take them. I could use items, and I learned somehow what kanji corresponded to potions. Basically I did nothing but attack, heal myself and grind to boost stats.

Now for the big question: when did I stop playing? When did the game FORCE me to stop playing like a moron?

The answer is, it didn't. I stopped at the end of disc1 because disc2 was damaged and didn't start.

So yeah, I'd say it was a rather forgiving game, in my book.

Videogame magazines where pretty dumb sometimes.

But hey, that reviewer would be happy today, the industry caters to him. Parting the elements in Fire, Ice, Lightning and Wind makes no sense whatsoever, but at least you shouldn't remember all the complicated stuff like magic gravity damage, physical sonic damage and so on. Errr, I mean, you could still ingnore this stuff and play from FF6 to FF9 just fine if you didn't want to go in-depth, but the mere POSSIBILITY to go in-depth may scare out some consumers still. To give them the feeling that they're not understanding the game if they are entirely unwilling to put minimal intellectual effort in it? Yeah, that too might upset consumers. Precious consumers.

Bah.

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #318 on: 2020-05-15 23:05:00 »
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"

That's actually hilarious.

Izban

  • *
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #319 on: 2020-05-16 06:33:46 »
My point was more about comparing the 1 to 1 comparison of remake to og7, remake has far more options then og7 has for the midgar section, and the beauty is that it's easy to add to in part 2 due to how they have done the pairings even if bolt/wind is an odd choice

Ff8 junction system is only complex if you ignore the 10minute tutorial on your first playthrough, og7 materia system is probably the best soft system for character customisation that isn't pulled straight from d&d and it isn't exactly anywhere close to reaching its potential, even with the mods found here which bring it a long way forward from where it was.

Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.

Dark Phoenix

  • *
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #320 on: 2020-05-16 16:22:44 »
FF4 on the DS

FF4 on the DS was a mostly faithful remake story-wise, but it was a trainwreck gameplay-wise.  A much more faithful remake of FF4 is the PSP version.

As for the whole "It's fine that there's only a few magic options in FF7R because there were only a few magic options in Midgar in the original" thing, um, NO ONE WAS FORCING THEM TO MAKE A GAME THAT ONLY COVERED MIDGAR...

You chose to take the 4h segment at the beginning and turn it into a full game.  You can't point to the original now as if they were logically equivalent, because one is now 10x as long as the other...
« Last Edit: 2020-05-16 16:31:56 by Dark Phoenix »

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #321 on: 2020-05-16 16:55:25 »
FF4 on the DS was a mostly faithful remake story-wise, but it was a trainwreck gameplay-wise.  A much more faithful remake of FF4 is the PSP version.

The PSP version is definitely more faithful (and gorgeous in my opinion) but the difficulty of the DS version is extremely fun. Also, wasn't the PSP version broken? Something with battles being far more easy than they actually should?

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #322 on: 2020-05-16 16:59:07 »
Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.

I don't entirely disagree on this, if you wanted some hardcore challenges then you had to know your battle system well, but if you sticked to the main quest there is a bunch of times you can quite ignore the workings of materias altoghether. As I said it was structured this way to give you freedom - you can play ignorantly, but it will make your game dumber and longer (I'm living proof of it) but not as much as it should, and surely there were not as much chances on the other end of the spectrum to go deep and thoughtful, as one would hope. Mods like the ones here are a great incentive to raise the difficulty bar a little, and refresh the experience. I wouldn't say it was wasted potential, but I agree that it left much unexplored.

Not sure FF7R will add depth in the future, though. From the premises I'd say no.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-16 17:04:57 by IlMomo86 »

Izban

  • *
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #323 on: 2020-05-17 01:02:09 »
@iimomo86
Here's an example within the ai script there is a threat system that action dependent will make the enemies attack a certain character, now the issue is that the values of every action while tracked are hardly ever used  but the allowance is there to use them.

Or the materia system, which in effect is just a partial job system, you have a system that can make any of the previous classes from the FF series but the base stat adjustment don't actually move things enough that the character have a different feel, so again the potential is there but isnt utilised.
How about the weapons with different damage calculations they have a fair assortment of different calculations, that end up being a waste of time cause there is no reason to use a weapon once you get the next one cause there base attack power is better then the fancy calculations.

Now remake actually addressed these issues, the is a reason to use different weapons because the weapons level up, materia builds make a noticeable difference in how a character plays, as for the threat player is almost always the target, not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #324 on: 2020-05-24 20:22:51 »
not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7

So you're saying that the gameplay of a full 40hrs game that came out in earlier 2020 and has been praised far and wide as a new peak of jrpg battle systems is actually better than the first 4hrs of a game that came out in 1997.

Yeah, I do agree. It's not that hard to come up with such an uncontroversial analysis, though.

I was trying to convey the sense that while the battle system is definitely an improvement, I'm getting the FEELING (and unlike on the narrative side, here I have no way to back it up, as it may completely turn out untrue, so the emphasis on the word FEELING) that they'll be cutting much of the more nuanced, complex and sometimes hidden stuff that made FF7 such a joy to explore and experiment with, with many hardcore or even entirely missable parts of the gameplay. Of course I do realize that this would mean that the work the devs did is not 100% pristine and perfect, a concept unacceptable to some.

Now you understand why is hard to take some of you seriously. Even if I say that the game is 95% awesome but there's a 5% I find distasteful, you come up with absurd notions such as this one to get across the point that the game should be 100% above of all criticism. Which is basically fanboy-ing.

Yeah, the gameplay of FF7R is better. It's not just better because is modernized, but also because of some very clever choices they made (like taking the stagger system, or putting some emphasis in characters uniqueness). That doesn't mean that every form of criticism toward some design directions taken should be considered heresy.