[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

[magictrufflez]

SC--some things I've run across that you might want to take a look at at some point:

--In the "New Threats" menu endgame, the ""Midgar" option talks about Rocket Town.  I think this might still be left over from Cids lvl 4 Limit being in the vending machine.

--In savepoints in the final dungeon, there's this weird thing that happens, where if you toggle random encounters, it doesn't put the middle box back in the extended save menu.  Everything works fine, but for some reason this small graphical glitch does exist in at least the Hatchery savepoint (I think it does the same thing for the save menu on the other 2 paths as well).

--The Goldberry battle....sweet baby jesus.  That was really, really ridiculous, but I eventually power-gamed them out of existence (Quadra Magic Bahamut Zero and Neo Bahamut from a 250 Mag hero plus 1 use of Catastrophe).  However, one really weird thing that kept happening was that every time they would use the Golden Grudge that inflicts small, my character would grow gigantic first before being "shrunk" down to what was then normal size.  It still had the exact same effect as intended, but it was a really confusing animation.

--I may have misread what you said about Master Materias, but are they still supposed to be available from materia blending?  As of right now, I can get infinite Master Commands, and I have blended 1 Master Magic.  I was under the impression that huge materia no longer did that, but was I wrong?

--Quadra Magic...officially kind of breaks the Summon Materia balance I think.  I should have checked whether Summons can be "Quadra'ed" multiple times, but I can confirm you get at least 1 Quadra Summon, and then you still have a singular Summon afterwards as well.  I'm not sure if this was meant to be left in, but it does change the Summoning Dynamic a bit.  I personally don't mind this being in there, but I just wanted to point it out if you weren't aware of it yet.


I think there were some other small things too I forgot about, but if I run across them again or remember them, I'll let you know!

[Bowser9]

@SrDrD

Decreasing the benefits of back row wouldn't do much for variety. People will still put the characters with low HP in the back, even if it's a 15% damage reduction to physical attacks, because they will get nuked by physical attackers. People will still have to rely on full cover + healer set up to balance out the nerfs unless they know every battle beforehand. You'd still put Tifa in the back row anyway, because 15% reduction is still better than 0%, and you're content with even Tifa's magic damage output in that situation.

Nothing would change if you nerfed the back row.

If you want to shake up the risk reward of strategical decisions, the best options are to use characters that actually interact with their row in some way, such as Barret. Conversely, if you want a reason to keep all mages in the front row as a strategical choice, you could ask Sega Chief to do something actually crazy, like doubling all MP cost in the back row, or halving restoratives in the back row. Then you're forced to be perfect in your decision making. These are just examples, but surely you can see why just nerfing back row damage mitigation changes nothing about how the game's mechanics intend for you to protect your squishies.

[magictrufflez]

As someone who's pretty much at the end of the mod, I personally think the row mechanics are pretty balanced throughout the game.  Some encounters are harder than others with/without using it, and there are some situations where you obviously always take advantage (Yuffie, Aeris, Vincent, some encounters like Iron Men).  Hell, I don't go anywhere without applying sadness to my whole party too, just to make sure I'm prepped for any surprises.

Bowser is totally right about nerfing the damage reduction to 25% though--there are characters that are naturally going to get completely wrecked with only that kind of a reduction, especially endgame.  Even with my whole level 99 party in the back row and sadness applied, Iron Men can 1-shot casters before barrier goes up, and can easily 2-shot even my heavy hitters.

The beginning section I believe was balanced the way it is because you don't have access to stat gains yet--don't worry, it gets rougher soon, and you'll be praising the sun for that back row.

[Murasame]

I think I must be the only one who actually likes trying to time the button press in the No. 5 reactor

[Sega Chief]

SC--some things I've run across that you might want to take a look at at some point:

--In the "New Threats" menu endgame, the ""Midgar" option talks about Rocket Town.  I think this might still be left over from Cids lvl 4 Limit being in the vending machine.

--In savepoints in the final dungeon, there's this weird thing that happens, where if you toggle random encounters, it doesn't put the middle box back in the extended save menu.  Everything works fine, but for some reason this small graphical glitch does exist in at least the Hatchery savepoint (I think it does the same thing for the save menu on the other 2 paths as well).

--The Goldberry battle....sweet baby jesus.  That was really, really ridiculous, but I eventually power-gamed them out of existence (Quadra Magic Bahamut Zero and Neo Bahamut from a 250 Mag hero plus 1 use of Catastrophe).  However, one really weird thing that kept happening was that every time they would use the Golden Grudge that inflicts small, my character would grow gigantic first before being "shrunk" down to what was then normal size.  It still had the exact same effect as intended, but it was a really confusing animation.

--I may have misread what you said about Master Materias, but are they still supposed to be available from materia blending?  As of right now, I can get infinite Master Commands, and I have blended 1 Master Magic.  I was under the impression that huge materia no longer did that, but was I wrong?

--Quadra Magic...officially kind of breaks the Summon Materia balance I think.  I should have checked whether Summons can be "Quadra'ed" multiple times, but I can confirm you get at least 1 Quadra Summon, and then you still have a singular Summon afterwards as well.  I'm not sure if this was meant to be left in, but it does change the Summoning Dynamic a bit.  I personally don't mind this being in there, but I just wanted to point it out if you weren't aware of it yet.


I think there were some other small things too I forgot about, but if I run across them again or remember them, I'll let you know!

I'll repair those save points in the crater + Highwind text. Master Materia is not available through fusion, going to do something else with that.

I was informed in a stream recently that Quadra raises the summon limit; a fix may not be possible without the .EXE patch, but we'll see. I haven't explored possibilities yet though I suspect it's hard-coded which Materias can be combined with Quadra.

I just got to Temple of the Ancients. At the clock hall. I went to door #VIII, got the megalixer in the chest, then got hit with a fight with 8eye's. They do this light attack which hits me like almost 1000hp each time, and that's their main move!  Is this a glitch or are they supposed to be hard as hell?  I get whacked every time. If so any tips to beat them?

They have very high defences but a Summon will cut through it, particularly Leviathan (they're weak to water, but halve other elements). If Leviathan isn't an option then use Aeris' Seal Evil Limit to open the fight and inflict Stop; then you can wear them down with Gravity to kill them.

[Yapt]

Wheres the ribbon gone? I just morphed a master tonberry and got a starlight phone. Is there any up to date documentation?

[SirDrD]

@SrDrD

Decreasing the benefits of back row wouldn't do much for variety. People will still put the characters with low HP in the back, even if it's a 15% damage reduction to physical attacks, because they will get nuked by physical attackers.

It is okay if people put just the low HP characters in the back. But the problem is that it seems like the best strategy to keep all the characters in the back. Tifa was modded with the highest strength in the game, but it feels like the best way to use her is to invest in magic stats and equipment for her, and have her spam magic in the back row. The front row is just too deadly compared to the back. And it is just more fun if she is played like the martial artist she is supposed to be.

Anyway, I think the best way to handle things will probably also be the most complicated to implement. The purpose of the back row was probably meant so the tougher fighters can protect the weaker mages, which are kept at the back. And this is needed so that all characters should not need high vitality and Hp. But that should only work if the mages are in fact behind the fighters.  If the fighters move to the back row too, that means from a tactical/technical standpoint that the back row is really now the front lines.And it would no longer make sense that the mage gets damage reduction. So ideally I would say:
- If two characters are in the front row, and one is in the back, the one in the back gets 50% damage reduction.
- If one is in the front, the two characters in the back get 25% reduction.
- If all three are in the front, then all three can be considered to be in an aggressive formation, and it would be fun if they had some sort of small physical attack and magical attack damage bonuses.Or maybe a slightly faster ATB growth for some kickass action.
- If all three are in the back, it can be considered a defensive formation,  without the benefit of a front row to protect them. And they should get both the benefits, and the penalties of what makes sense for a defensive formation. Something like a small defense bonus, but also a small ATB penalty would make sense.

This is probably too complicated too mod, but it would allow  for the strategic importance of tough front line characters, more  squishy back row characters, and a variety of options and builds. And a long range material could probably get modded back in.

[GeoFlare]

Honestly speaking I think the back row should be left as is. This mod is plenty difficult as it is and I feel like nuking the benefits of the back row would hamper the actual mod. I have no issue leaving Tifa in the front row dealing damage since we got the nice hp boost in this version. Typically my party consists of Tifa, Cloud, and Aerith with only Tifa dealing physical damage while Aerith and Cloud dish out some nice magical damage/support. I do actually give Tifa fullcure, demi, and maybe barrier from time to time as well. Even in the back row Aerith can still be one shoted by most endgame enemies even with barrier. I mean if you really don't like the backrow simply don't use it. I like Tifa or my main physical damage dealer (Cid as a nice sub or even Barret from time to time) to soak up damage to get their limits faster without having to resort to using fury for the nasty hit reduction. I feel like it gives the game a nice sense of aesthetic since frontline fighters receive the brunt of enemy attacks.   

[Sega Chief]

Wheres the ribbon gone? I just morphed a master tonberry and got a starlight phone. Is there any up to date documentation?

I made a mistake with the master tonberries; there are three entries for that enemy, and only one has the updated steal/drop/morph list. If you go to the last screen of the Left-Down path, the Master Tonberry that appears there morphs into a Ribbon.

It is okay if people put just the low HP characters in the back. But the problem is that it seems like the best strategy to keep all the characters in the back. Tifa was modded with the highest strength in the game, but it feels like the best way to use her is to invest in magic stats and equipment for her, and have her spam magic in the back row. The front row is just too deadly compared to the back. And it is just more fun if she is played like the martial artist she is supposed to be.

Anyway, I think the best way to handle things will probably also be the most complicated to implement. The purpose of the back row was probably meant so the tougher fighters can protect the weaker mages, which are kept at the back. And this is needed so that all characters should not need high vitality and Hp. But that should only work if the mages are in fact behind the fighters.  If the fighters move to the back row too, that means from a tactical/technical standpoint that the back row is really now the front lines.And it would no longer make sense that the mage gets damage reduction. So ideally I would say:
- If two characters are in the front row, and one is in the back, the one in the back gets 50% damage reduction.
- If one is in the front, the two characters in the back get 25% reduction.
- If all three are in the front, then all three can be considered to be in an aggressive formation, and it would be fun if they had some sort of small physical attack and magical attack damage bonuses.Or maybe a slightly faster ATB growth for some kickass action.
- If all three are in the back, it can be considered a defensive formation,  without the benefit of a front row to protect them. And they should get both the benefits, and the penalties of what makes sense for a defensive formation. Something like a small defense bonus, but also a small ATB penalty would make sense.

This is probably too complicated too mod, but it would allow  for the strategic importance of tough front line characters, more  squishy back row characters, and a variety of options and builds. And a long range material could probably get modded back in.

I do like the idea of the number of people in each row determining the modifiers, but like you say it'll be tricky to mod correctly. AI can implement an effect of some kind, though not the actual %-damage reduction and I'm already out of space in the kernel.

[Tavarcio]

I've been getting a crash when I go into a battle in the scaffold leading up to Hojo, I'm not sure why tho.

[Tavarcio]

Should I just equip the enemy way materia and head up to Hojo?

[Kryalis]

How in the hell do I beat the Grosspanzer.Mobile? No matter what attack or spell I use it either receives 0 damage or my attacks miss it. It's practically invincible as no matter what I do I can't kill it. What is the way on killing it?

[magictrufflez]

How in the hell do I beat the Grosspanzer.Mobile? No matter what attack or spell I use it either receives 0 damage or my attacks miss it. It's practically invincible as no matter what I do I can't kill it. What is the way on killing it?

If memory serves, you have to kill individual parts in specific order?  As is, I believe there is 1 part that will take damage, kill it and then another becomes vulnerable, and so on until all are done for.

[Sega Chief]

How in the hell do I beat the Grosspanzer.Mobile? No matter what attack or spell I use it either receives 0 damage or my attacks miss it. It's practically invincible as no matter what I do I can't kill it. What is the way on killing it?

If memory serves, you have to kill individual parts in specific order?  As is, I believe there is 1 part that will take damage, kill it and then another becomes vulnerable, and so on until all are done for.

There was a problem with it though, and I can't recall if I fixed it or not where killing the large turret could leave the rest of the machine invincible due to the way the two small turrets are handled in the AI.

I've been getting a crash when I go into a battle in the scaffold leading up to Hojo, I'm not sure why tho.

That'll be either a missing model or enemy formation; any mods being used for enemies through 7H? I recall grosspanzer having one in that catalog somewhere.

[NeoDraconis]

Why does a monster sound like a weird cellphone plan?

[SunnyD]

Trying this out and it's been a great mod so far. But one part is just defeating me. I'm on disc two where you have to get the Mega-Materia from the Corel Train but the Guard Scorpion either stalls for too long leading me to run out of time or it kills me since I'm too focused on killing it before the time runs out.

Am I doing it wrong or do I just suck?

EDIT: Never mind. Was able to do it by inflicting Dual on Scorp and going all out with Lightning/Water/Earth elemental attacks to kill it, then using poison and level 3 magic to take out the driver.

[Sega Chief]

Why does a monster sound like a weird cellphone plan?

Cellphones are an integral part of the FF7 universe.

Not sure if this is NT mod related but Vincent's Live Wire attack via Death Gigas doesn't show the orange electricity blasts like it's supposed to. Is this a graphical glitch via the mod or maybe 7th Heaven?

ALSO, I was fighting near the forests of Fort Condor and encountered a guy riding a warg, who
who then dropped an MP Plus materia after you kill him. I forgot to save, tried running into the same
Forests again but he doesn't appear. Is there a certain way to encounter him again?

Live Wire should display correctly though it has some unique effects going on that might be tripped up by mods. Are you using that hi-res spell texture mod or anything for battle models?

He appears at random like the original mystery ninja encounter; there was an issue where a flag was being turned off during certain events though on the cargo ship + cosmo canyon but that should be gone from the latest flevel hotfix.

[magictrufflez]

Trying this out and it's been a great mod so far. But one part is just defeating me. I'm on disc two where you have to get the Mega-Materia from the Corel Train but the Guard Scorpion either stalls for too long leading me to run out of time or it kills me since I'm too focused on killing it before the time runs out.

Am I doing it wrong or do I just suck?

EDIT: Never mind. Was able to do it by inflicting Dual on Scorp and going all out with Lightning/Water/Earth elemental attacks to kill it, then using poison and level 3 magic to take out the driver.

An alternate method for that horrible train sequence:  jack up all your text speeds (battle speed optional, but it can work if your characters are tough enough).  You will still have to move somewhat quick through the battles, but doing this effectively reduced SC's stalling shenanigans to zero and give you a bit more room for error.  I believe I finished the last boss with more than a minute left, which let me comfortably complete the sequence.

[Kryalis]

How do you trigger the flashback of Zack and Cloud escaping thus you get to fight Zack and obtain Cloud's ultimate weapon and limit break? Because I'm on Disc 3 and I went to the Nibelheim Basement and no cut scene or anything had triggered, even if I examine the tubes or anything in the room it won't trigger anything, is there something I'm missing?

[GeoFlare]

How do you trigger the flashback of Zack and Cloud escaping thus you get to fight Zack and obtain Cloud's ultimate weapon and limit break? Because I'm on Disc 3 and I went to the Nibelheim Basement and no cut scene or anything had triggered, even if I examine the tubes or anything in the room it won't trigger anything, is there something I'm missing?

Have you gone all the way down too the bottom of the Northern Crater yet? At the very bottom where you reunite with your party, there is a scene that triggers most if not all new content for the endgame.

[Kryalis]

Have you gone all the way down too the bottom of the Northern Crater yet? At the very bottom where you reunite with your party, there is a scene that triggers most if not all new content for the endgame.

Ah, right. Thanks for correcting me.

[Sega Chief]

You will still have to move somewhat quick through the battles, but doing this effectively reduced SC's stalling shenanigans to zero and give you a bit more room for error.

I am fond of shenanigans.

[SirDrD]

I do like the idea of the number of people in each row determining the modifiers, but like you say it'll be tricky to mod correctly. AI can implement an effect of some kind, though not the actual %-damage reduction and I'm already out of space in the kernel.

I was expecting that was wishfull thinking. It would be cool though, and give the feeling that the fighters in the front row are protecting the back row characters. Anyway as I am progressing through the game, and I specialize Tifa more on strength and speed, and can do more to raise her vitality, it does make more sense to use her as melee.  (For progress I just left the gold saucer for the first time.) But for cloud, who I am keeping the stats balanced, he does seem to do better with magic then melee. And this is with his original weapon still, not the ones that give magic bonuses. It is easy enough to cast some element that enemies are weak too, so it almost always does more damage then melee.  And he seems to have more then enough MP to cast continuously. I think it is the amount of MP that he has that is the balance issue. I think it should almost be halved. But I am not taking into account that melee attacks are faster, and can critical hit. So maybe melee does give better damage output, but it is just harder to notice. And maybe it will be balanced better once I get him his first sword upgrade.

For the back row vs front row, I don't think the back row damage reduction should be reduced. It is there to make low vitality character viable. But there needs to be more front row advantages. There should of course be fights designed to be fought from the back, but the players should feel more handicapped in those fights. (My vote would be to give short range too many of the limit breaks. Tifa's should be short range, but Cloud can have a mixture of short and long range limit break options. Such as braver being long range, but cross slash short range) And some of the enemies attacks (particularly the ones that effect the whole party) should be set as ranged so they do just as much damage to the back as the front row, but have damage reduced to match what they do currently to the back row.

And Saga Chief, as you suggested else where I do think sadness damage reduction should be reduced. It should be a bad status effect that players don't want, not a good one. And barriers should be an aid, but not feel so essential. Haste and slow are spells help, but they are not required. Barriers should also help, but not be required.

And there is that defend option, which me along which probably most players, completely forget about. But it would be cool if knowing when to use defend in some fights is needed too survive instead of players abusing back row, sadness, and barriers. You might have even designed some fights that way, but we haven't noticed because we forget about defend. It would require enemies having either predictable sequences, or the most powerful attacks having a long recharge time. To get people thinking in terms of defend, it would help if there was in combat dialog the first time such a fight occurs, with Cloud mentioning something about it.

[SirDrD]

The following is some other random ideas that I have. They are not ones that I expect to get implemented, as  they would likely interfere with the balance that has been built into the mod, but hopefully might inspire something anyway.

I have never like the way spell progression works, such as with fire1, fire2 and fire3.  As well as not being creative, they make it feel like leveling up material is more important then the characters stats. I really think that 'fire' should be a bit more dependent on the mag stat, so that fire2 and 3 are not needed.By the  time a character would normally get to fire3, 'fire' should be doing the same damage 'fire3' would based on the mag stat increase.

I would like to see instead of fire1,2 and 3, they are changed to allow for more variety, with different ones doing different things, and none of them becoming obsolete. So instead of those, we could have:
Fire1 =>Flame Strike: shoots fire at a single target from a distance, . (LIke the fire spells work now)
Fire2=>Flaming Hands: A close range version of flame strike, but is faster to cast.
Fire3=>Fire Dart: A long distance spell that has the advantage of both of the above, but is the least efficient in  MP consumption.

Ice1=>Icy Breath: A close distance ice spell
Ice2=>ICe Dart: A long distance ice spell that does slighlyt  less damage then  Icy breath, but can work from a distance
ICe3=>Freeze: Does the most damage, and from a distance,has  a chance to slow, but uses the most MP, and is slowest to cast.

I don't like the names of the above, (they don't seem very Final Fantasy-ish), but I do like the idea of each set having at least one short distance version, that is most efficient in either speed, MP, or damage.The fact is Final Fantasy VII is a game that incorporates magic into  fighting, so warriors usually do both. And even Aeris is more physically tough then white mages in usual FF games.   It makes sense for there to be short range spells, if that is possible to mod. And I always thought that even if Cloud has caster build, he is a warrior and has a large sword. Their should be an incentive for him to cast from the front, as that's what it looks like he should be doing and it is what his personality is like.   And like I said, I don't like the idea of spells becoming obsolete, and the materia level mattering more then the users magic stat.

But such as approach would also require characters gaining a lot less MP as they level, since Magic stat matters for damage more then higher level spells that consume more MP. I think a formula of 50 + Spirit would be about the right amount.

And as I said at the beginning of this post, this is mostly wishfull thinking. But maybe at least there is some way to give some sort of casting advantage to the front row. 

[Murasame]

Can anyone refresh my memory where the Precious Watch is? In 1.35, I thought I stole it from the X-ATM in Junon when Barret is the leader but I'm not getting it now. Is it a rare steal or is it else where?