Why Square should reintroduce the world map

[Lion]

I am not only writing this for nostalgias sake. Nor am I writing this because the world map felt like you were so small and free to go wherever you want whenever you want, with each individual place a new story in your grand adventure. It wasn't because the games become linear without it. Though they are some of the reasons, the main reason I fell in love with the world map was the music. Now don't get me wrong I loved the world map for so many more reasons than just that. But the feeling of exploring the world, an endless horizon ahead of you is just unreal. As I write this I am listening to the FF9 world map theme crossing the hills. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf_nFdq12kw). It really made me appreciate the world map. The music really synergizes so well and it makes you feel like you are immersed into a whole nother realm. With new people to meet or just explore. When Sephiroth summoned meteor I didn't regret that I was about to die and each of my beloved characters would be lost. I felt sadder that my favourite world map theme was taken from me.

Today I was on youtube and I stumbled upon a comment in the FF9 world map theme "crossing the hills" that really made me wonder.

"Listening to this really brings home to me how grave a loss the world   maps was. To encounter the world maps of VII, VIII, and IX was really   something: it made you realize that this was going to be an epic   experience, and for me was always the marker that said 'OK, you've   finished the introductory part of the game, welcome to the next two   months of your life. Enjoy them!' And I always did."

I'm the kind of guy who plays Final Fantasy and loves to explore every nook and cranny. From the Quadra Magic cave to the deap sea research centre I've been there. Hell, I even played the FF4 remake on gba and went through 50 floors of the lunar dungeon. The world map is about the endless possibilities. When you don't want the game to end. It creates a mood and a setting that individual maps cannot convey. How do you describe with little details when you haven't even told us what it's about? You might come out of Midgar thinking one thing about FF7 and then you realize FF7 is a bittersweet melody of trials and perseverance not of militant might and corrupt governments. The world map is the heart and soul of a game. It's the Title on a book, the meat of the world.

The world map is like the art style of a game. When you play Final Fantasy and you listen to the main theme of FF7 you learn to just let your heart and mind wander, only until the next random encounter. Man, I hated those guys cause they always stopped you from finishing a song. How beautiful do you think the world of FF10 might have been had there been a world? Do you think you would have wandered blue seas and beautiful skies? Just walking, bright sun, and not a care in the world? I loved the scenery of FF10. And some argue it just isn't as good as it could have been because you never could explore the world that was crafted for you. You couldn't explore the palm tree with coconuts hanging from it, nor could you explore the coast.

There is this carefree feeling unique to each world. You have no mission, no objective. You can do whatever you want. I loved each world like a mother loved each child. I once heard this analogy; a mother does not divide her love between kids but she gives them all all of her love. I guess you could say that as you wander each and every world, from the technologically advanced world of FF8, to the despair ridden one of FF7, and even the blue hills of FF9, it feels like each world is the FINAL fantasy. Each is an individual child that you cannot love more than another

[DLPB_]

Square is dead, and so is Final Fantasy.  Enjoy what they did, because they only care for money now.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I fully agree. the feeling of escaping onto the world map was wonderful, especially in FF7, where it doesn't happen until later in the game. After being cooped up in Midgar for hours, a prison of a city with no light, no green and no sky, you were freed into a massive open world filled with wonder and adventure. The orchestral version of the world map theme says this far more eloquently than I can: just listen to 2:00 to 3:45. Shit, I just nostalgia'd.

Unfortunately, Square are focussing on linear gameplay now, and making everything look realistic. We're unlikely to see the world map again. Hell, they can't even manage towns any more because it's more important that everything is sufficiently HD.

[Covarr]

they only care for money now.

They only ever cared for the money. The difference is that now they've got the name reputation, so they don't need to try to get the money.

[xLostWingx]

Square has a shelf full of these

[yarLson]

Square is dead, and so is Final Fantasy.  Enjoy what they did, because they only care for money now.

Agreed completely.

[useless rant]
Honestly they should have known this since FFX. Final Fantasy X was one of my favorite games ever, but I missed the world map then and of course I am sure most FF players still miss it now. I don't really care for any of the FF titles that have been released since the merger of square and enix and I don't really have any hope for that to change (with the possible exception of XIII Versus simply because of the man in charge of that game). i could complain all day but I am sure you all already know everything I would say. The world map should have never gone anywhere. Especially when games like Morrowind began emerging on the scene. they should have used these types of games as a form of healthy competition and built lush elaborate world maps the likes of which have still rarely been seen implemented practically and effectively. Instead they chose to submit entirely on their own greatest invention, and what was once a realm of infinite possibilities, has become a squabble through a hideously simplistic herd of never ending linear corridors after which 90% become completely returnable (and there would be no reason to return even if you could). IMO the story's began to get dry and make hardly any sense on top of it all, even for a fantasy world. Perhaps it would have made a better movie for some (not by my taste), but FFXIII was the "final" straw that shown me that, while the visuals may very well continue to improve to a photo realistic level (which I really could care less about if game play is lacking), the genius behind what made Final Fantasy a good GAME in the past is completely and entirely dead. If I had to come up with a terrible pun I'd say FFX was the true Final Fantasy. The world map, unfortunately, is but one of many things that will never return in Final Fantasy. My only hope is that XII Versus will make a worthy end to a great series. But after what I've seen I can't even put too much faith in that.
[/useless rant]

Your right about the music. I've always loved Nobuo Uematsu, and I never really expected anyone to fill his shoes after retirement

but at least for this type of experience I have a game like Skyrim to look forward to.

[Touph Guy]

Um...isn't Versus XIII going to include a world map?

That is, if it's ever released...

[Masa-Buster]

Um...isn't Versus XIII going to include a world map?

That is, if it's ever released...

So I've heard, and it's 'supposed' to be released either Summer of next year or just around Christmas. We'll probably see something about it at E3 soon enough >.> HOPEFULLY.

Anyway, but that's supposed to be an Action RPG like Kingdom Hearts, Dissidia, DoC, take your pick. I honestly miss running around on a world map going somewhere I shouldn't then getting ripped apart by something 30 levels higher then me. And the feeling of having a choice too, and of course.


Side Quests Don't see alot of them in RPGs anymore and even if you do it's not that long compared to older side quests like the FF 7/8/9 back when RPGs were actual RPGs. Now all the good old style RPGs are either Ports, or remastered Remakes from an NES/SNES to a handheld of some kind. I think if Square would actually care about how people liked they're RPGs, they'd either make a brand new one from scratch, or they'd remake an older one and put it on console. But needless to say, if it has Final Fantasy in the title 90% of us are gonna pick it up ...


EDIT: I'll give an example of what I think why certain FF games were bad to some people. FF13 for example. We all thought it was going to be a great improvment from FF12, but the thing is, if they were as they're own title, and not part of FF we'd probably see them as better games. FF13 did a good job at what kind of Exploration (Very Little at that but whatever), the leveling, the Battles and Story. But it's just that we all thought that POSSIBLY we'd get a more classic FF title or something. I don't know this just popped in my head before I went to sleep so I had to edit post before I forgot about it tomorrow XD

[yarLson]

Um...isn't Versus XIII going to include a world map?

That is, if it's ever released...

yeah it is. Which is one big reason why it's my last hope for a good FF title. But after the crushing disappointment of XIII after waiting like 7 years, I can't hope too much. I kinda agree with buster on the whole side quests thing too. I mean the new Star Ocean was decent in that aspect. But not as good as it used to be. Star Ocean III was like one of my favorite games ever for this and other reasons. Honestly after putting some serious thought into it, I decided a while ago that I would really rather play new games that continue to look like ff7/super mario 64 but with upgraded GAMEPLAY mechanics. Seems like a lot of developers (not all) are sacrificing game for graphics. I mean I would love to play final fantasy XV and have it look like 7 or 6 but have it be like a million times more enthralling and in depth. More moves, more options, bigger maps, more towns, longer story, more enemies and all the advanced technologies of today included in much more creative ways than just maxing out the visuals. It would be a lot better than this growing trend of "less of everything for some stunning (but ultimately forgettable) graphics". I mean it almost makes me cry when I think of how much farther we could already be with video games in general if graphics had not taken a front seat, and all that time money and effort was spent up on intuitive design and better ideas, kinda like the wii did, but to a much higher degree. I mean shit if we could have virtual reality by now at the expense of some poorly animated, low polu chibi models, then I would be all for it. Kinda of an extreme example but you get the point. Its all really just my opinion. Coming from someone who has always liked to play video games for a mental challenge and not just to watch a movie, and what has become a bad movie at that. On top of everything, I miss the beautiful story telling of the oldschool and not this copy and paste bs.

[Timber]

yeah it is. Which is one big reason why it's my last hope for a good FF title.

Well it's not really an 'FF' since it's an action RPG.
But yeah, hopefully they do a lot of things right, and it is well received.

I think a lot of lessons have been learned from XIII, so I'm positive for the future.
This is obvious from their efforts with XIV too, Squenix has really started trying to listening to the community.

Unfortunately, Square are focussing on linear gameplay now, and making everything look realistic. We're unlikely to see the world map again.

Lol what because XIII was really linear, that is the focus now? No.
In fact the producer and director of FFXIII-2 have stated specifically that it will be less linear, so they know its a problem.

As for realism, that's not really an issue. FFVIII is realistic, and had a world map. Also, Versus.

[Armorvil]

A RPG at least needs some kind of world map, yeah. I really like FFX, and even its world map is satisfying, somehow.

The funny thing is, before FFXIII was released, I thought that world maps weren't important. I kept reading the previews of FFXIII, and since many people compared it to FFX, I was convinced I would enjoy the ride. Sadly, I didn't. FFXIII is nothing like FFX.

Still, what kills FFXIII IMO isn't its lack of a world map, but its lack of a good story combined with actual gameplay meat. It also doesn't help that there are not many things you can do, in battle, except the usual "Buff/Debuff, stagger the enemy, then unleash full power". And it gets tiring after a while. I also don't like the fact that they're going with a more Action-RPG approach (I like to sit back and take my time, when I play a RPG - I hate button mashers like Kingdom Hearts & co).

Anyways, I'd love a world map reminiscing of IV, V, VI, VII, VIII and IX to come back - but I don't see Square making this U-turn, since they're more worried about realism nowadays.

[yarLson]

well I'm made that statement because it does have Final Fantasy in the title.. And I think what really killed Final Fantasy is when the series lost both the director, lead character design, and music director that it held for the majority of the series life. Just a side note I wouldn't really call XIII a traditional RPG true to the series since your forced to have bot controlled allies (among countless other letdowns), which is a huge downgrade even from the very first installment. And the difficulty level is just a joke. I mean I almost got every achievement in the game without even trying except for treasure hunter because I didn't find it appealing to kill Adamantoise all day in hopes that they drop the ingot so I can afford the absurdly expensive upgrades. Only other option being to kill thousands upon thousands of enemies since their is only one exceptionally valuable item in the game.

Also I just wanna say that if you could make a game that's less linear than FXIII, you could still very well end up with one of the most linear based games around so that's not saying much at all. Seriously I've played 2d nes games with more exploration value than XIII. Taking it back to the world map, I mean this game could've had two of the most epic world maps ever constructed by any company in any game ever. I mean it could have been infinite, it could have made sense, it could have be ground breaking, the chocobo coulda been better than ever, and I won't even mention how awesome the airship could have been. If only they brought the graphics down to slightly above Oblivion level they could probably made it happen easily. But instead it turned out to be just another Advent Children, stripped of all aspects of what made FF, FF in the first place. Only diff between the two is that you have to hold foward and tap x a bunch to see the whole thing, and it made even less sense because of the horrible voice acting and translation (at least I hope it was lost in translation and not that choppy on purpose). You didn't even need to upgrade your weapons to beat the game. You didn't really need to do much of anything except to try and stay awake.

 As for Square starting to listen to fans. I'll believe it when they make a FFVII remake official. People have been begging them for almost an entire decade now, I know its not a priority to them, but honestly as long as they don't completely destroy the story, it would make them a lot of money. And since they already milked the series for close to everything its worth with all these spins off they might as well follow through with a final project that ties it all together. From old fans dying to replay their favorite game in a remastered format, to new players experiencing the joy of the old style of FF story telling for the first time, mixed with all the new school tech that the younger generation of gamers demand. I think a FFVII remake would do them quite well. Could end up being a smash hit just like the original. Could very well do much better than the original in sales (which is saying a lot). I'm no economist but I'd say its pretty safe to assume at this point, that it would be a sound investment for the company, and I find that them dancing around the request and never giving a straight answer disrespectful to the fans. They could at least say no. Not this whole well some of us wanna do it, some of us don't bs. I don't really care if they remake 7 or not personally. I'd just be afraid of what they'd do to it. Honestly, IMO I just want them to bury the company already. But I'm sure they will carry on for at least another decade. There's always a chance for redemption with anything really and I'm not ruling them out saying they will never make another good game. I mean they are not the only company going south. But I simply have no reason to place faith in them as I once did.

[Lion]

Um...isn't Versus XIII going to include a world map?

That is, if it's ever released...

FFX-2 was supposed to include one i believe. square has lied to us before =/

[xLostWingx]

It almost certainly has something to do with FF's transformation into a Pop-RPG...I mean, how many bands have you loved until they make it big and then their music goes down the toilet.  Evidently Square wasn't satisfied with only making 10s of millions of dollars, only 100s of millions will do now.  I also think that the time for a FFVII Remake has passed.  If they were going to do it, they should have done so like 6 months or a year after Dirge/CC/AC.  If they were to do so now or in the future, its pretty much guaranteed that it will blow ass.  Not to mention I don't want to see Enix's dirty fingerprints all over my beloved anymore than we've already seen.  Another important factor is, how many of the original VII team still work at SquareEnix?  Without the original team making the remake, I dare to say I wouldn't even want to play it.

Didn't mean to make this a VII Remake discussion, but the point is generalizable to all of the new FFs.  They will make Pop-Rpgs for the mainstream video gamers who may or may not have any place in their soul for the first IX FFs (many of you would include X, I don't).  These games will make many millions of moneys for them, so they lather, rinse, and repeat. 

[Kudistos Megistos]

It almost certainly has something to do with FF's transformation into a Pop-RPG...I mean, how many bands have you loved until they make it big and then their music goes down the toilet. 

Careful now, you're beginning to sound like one of those oldschoolfags who say that the series went down the shitter when FF7 came out.

FF's demise is just part of the general demise of traditional, turn-based RPGs, which itself is part of a more general trend towards satisfying graphics whores with ADHD.

[Covarr]

I mean, how many bands have you loved until they make it big

WARNING. HIPSTER DETECTED.

But seriously, it's just a trend. They can't get away with this forever, and soon enough they'll have no choice but to make better games again.

[Kudistos Megistos]

But seriously, it's just a trend. They can't get away with this forever, and soon enough they'll have no choice but to make better games again.

lolno.

Also, they believe that they can't make traditional RPGs any more. You see, no-one buys traditional RPGs nowadays, so no-one makes them. Which means there aren't any to buy.

Some people have a strange form of logic.

[xLostWingx]

I'm no oldschoolfag, but I'm not an Attention Deficit Hyperactive Whore either.  If anything, I'm a middleschoolhetero.  Obviously I think VII tops them all, but I love FFT, VIII, IX, IV, V, VI and generally anything made by Square during those range of years.  Although if I were to make a graph, I would have to say that VII marked the end of the climb and the beginning of the descent (not that anything before or after it was crap, the games still aren't crap, except when VII is the basis for comparison).

[Kudistos Megistos]

I'm a middleschoolhetero

I'm a middleschoolbisexual

FTFY

[xLostWingx]

Man, apparently I'm a hipster and an oldschoolfag today   But seriously, trends and fads are one thing, but what I'm talking about is almost a formula, a pseudo-rule of sorts economics.
If I open a shop that sells Grilled Cheese sandwiches for $1 and I earna good living and everyone says the sandwiches are the best they ever had, and then someone comes along and tells me to make Gourmet Shishkebabs and to sell them for $50 each, and I do and its successful.  I sell MORE shishkebabs that the number of sandwiches I used to sell.  Well I am happy, I am a millionaire, and those sandwich lovers be damned.  I no longer have a reason to make sandwiches.  FFVII is a sandwich.  Newschool FFs are Shishkebabs.

EDIT: 

I'm a middleschoolbisexual

  Oh yeah!! Well your a...a....you smell bad!

[Kudistos Megistos]

Man, apparently I'm a hipster and an oldschoolfag today   But seriously, trends and fads are one thing, but what I'm talking about is almost a formula, a pseudo-rule of sorts economics.
If I open a shop that sells Grilled Cheese sandwiches for $1 and I earna good living and everyone says the sandwiches are the best they ever had, and then someone comes along and tells me to make Gourmet Shishkebabs and to sell them for $50 each, and I do and its successful.  I sell MORE shishkebabs that the number of sandwiches I used to sell.  Well I am happy, I am a millionaire, and those sandwich lovers be damned.  I no longer have a reason to make sandwiches.  FFVII is a sandwich.  Newschool FFs are Shishkebabs.

That seems to be how the companies think.

They ignore the fact that FF7 costs the same amount as FF13 (and was probably less expensive to make), and that it sold better, too.

EDIT: 

I'm a middleschoolbisexual

  Oh yeah!! Well your a...a....you smell bad!

That unusual smell that has made you so upset is the smell of soap.

[yarLson]

You see, no-one buys traditional RPGs nowadays, so no-one makes them. Which means there aren't any to buy.

Haha I agree that this is very strange. I am not sure how it was decided that traditional RPGs are out but I don't understand how they would be able to make this decision in an informed fashion since virtually none have been made since the next gen consoles have arisen. The only one I can really think of is Lost Odyssey and that's, of course, because it was made by the director of the original Final Fantasy games. Anyhow I think its retarded that tradition rpgs have taken a dive, especially since, if nobody has noticed yet, virtually all genres of gaming have stolen the basic concepts of the first traditional rpgs (leveling, character development, free roaming environments or world maps, shops, weapon development etc.). I just fail to understand why they ever gave up on this genre, but the only company I really have faith in making a good one any time soon is Mist Walker, but then I don't even know what they are up to now. I also like Star Ocean a lot but that's not really tradition because of the way the battle system works.

Funny thing about the economics of the situation is, Square was doing much better, monetarily, around the time of FF7 & 8 then they are doing now with FXIII & IV. Maybe not as far as net worth, (although i wouldn't doubt it) but as far as consistent cash flow. It has happened a million times in our lifetime, when people, companies, or even bands begin to sell out their original beliefs/values/formulas etc., they may (at first) make a ton of money for a while. But eventually, since they have stripped out their own foundations from under them, they are left with nothing to stand on and ultimately fail. AKA Greed. I could name a thousand pop idols from the last two decades to prove that point. Or I could just ask you how long a house without a foundation will stay standing? But I'm sure you all get the point hahaha

[Lion]

It almost certainly has something to do with FF's transformation into a Pop-RPG...I mean, how many bands have you loved until they make it big and then their music goes down the toilet.  Evidently Square wasn't satisfied with only making 10s of millions of dollars, only 100s of millions will do now.  I also think that the time for a FFVII Remake has passed.  If they were going to do it, they should have done so like 6 months or a year after Dirge/CC/AC.  If they were to do so now or in the future, its pretty much guaranteed that it will blow ass.  Not to mention I don't want to see Enix's dirty fingerprints all over my beloved anymore than we've already seen.  Another important factor is, how many of the original VII team still work at SquareEnix?  Without the original team making the remake, I dare to say I wouldn't even want to play it.

Didn't mean to make this a VII Remake discussion, but the point is generalizable to all of the new FFs.  They will make Pop-Rpgs for the mainstream video gamers who may or may not have any place in their soul for the first IX FFs (many of you would include X, I don't).  These games will make many millions of moneys for them, so they lather, rinse, and repeat. 

The japanese have a different theory to work. In japan you can very well expect to have one job for your entire life if you are competent. Even in economic crisis japanese are hesitant to lay off workers. You could say Japanese keep jobs longer than most americans keep marriage.

[yarLson]

no dude, I am sorry to say that the majority of the original Final Fantasy team has retired or moved on. This is fact my friend.

[Lion]

no dude, I am sorry to say that the majority of the original Final Fantasy team has retired or moved on. This is fact my friend.

well it shouldn't matter too much. though the departures of sakaguchi, and everyone else does hurt. the essential storyline is the same and i'd imagine they can't mess it up too much. Essentially they've contributed everything that's needed anyways. Right now all Square can really add are graphical updates, script updates, sidequests, and maybe some minor combat tweaks.

most of the work is devoted to modeling and texturing. The time it takes to even make one model takes obscene amounts of time. Coding is a breeze compared to the amount of modeling is needed to be done and the quality. Which is why they say an FF7 remake probably won't happen, due to the sheer amount of work required and the quality it has to be done as. graphics, is squares specialty. they are amazing at it no question.

script updates should be minor and square is still pretty good at spinning a good story... sometimes. Crisis Core was not terrible.

sidequests are always optional so it doesn't harm the game much.

I personally don't know what's wrong with the remakes. 4 got remade, though I never play the remake I did play the GBA version, and from what I understand there were only improvements to 4.