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1

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-26 15:40:31 »

@Iimomo86 you are fun, while I still maintain chapters 17-18 become less egregious on subsequent playthroughs I'm curious as to how you would adjust them while maintaining the plot elements to make them passable

You misunderstand, I am not the one saying the problem lies in execution. I still mantain my opinion that the core plot points of FF7 are in contradiction with the additions in FF7R. And that while the following titles may execute the narrative well and obtain a decent story the path to do so is narrow, and still leads to a somewhat worse final product than the original narrative.

I still have to hear from just about anyone how could you put together:
1. a delusional and unreliable hero AND a chosen by destiny
2. a sense of irreparable loss in death AND multiple timelines or alt-universes
3. the theme of acceptance (of your shortcomings, of death, of defeat) AND rewriting your fate
4. an extreme ecologist message in the ending (Holy) AND the fight to avert/rewrite that "bad" ending
5. a freudian-lovecraftian haunting presence antagonist motivated by his alien-ess AND a "worthy rivals" dynamic with an ever present and talkative antagonist

I still haven't found anyone with a satisfactory reply to any of this. So yeah, I think it was a lame execution, but I wasn't that fixated on the execution myself as much as the concepts.

Still, if you are interested in the reasoning of people like that famous italian youtuber I mentioned -and I assume you are since my points I made plenty clear already- I can make you a short summary of his crucial objections to the execution of the finale.

Premises:

Spoiler: show

First off, to follow this reasoning you must accept the premises best summarized by Maximilian Dood, which are essentially:
1) Sephiroth's interest in breaking the course of fate is related to his future defeat
2) the group's interest in breaking the course of fate is related to the damage Holy will cause to humanity
3) Sephiroth and Aerith didn't "travel" through time, they communicated with the Lifestream which exists outside of time, and that's why they have their awareness
4) Zack is alive in a parallel course (and will be something like the Laguna Loire of FF7R) that needs to collapse at some point to make things right
5) the fact that people like Biggs or Jessie survived will seem positive at first but will start a negative chain of events
6) Aerith's sacrifice will be inevitable in the end

All this stuff is to point out that basically all the changes are made to make the original story (which is well known and spoiler-ed for all of us) live a renewed life; they will give us the illusion that we can avert the difficult choices and "make it right" in order to make the inevitable losses more impactful. Basically the changes in chap18 serve the same purpose of the changes in, say, WallMarket: you change stuff in order to make it fitting and impactful in 2020 as it was in 1997.

This list of assumptions is pivotal in evaluating chap18 as CONCEPTUALLY valid. I think many of these assumptions are really more the fruit of intelligent speculation by Maximilian Dood's and the likes of him, which is why I don't share the optimism.

Though I give credit to the basic consideration (by both Maximilian, Mike and many others) that the rest of the game is so well-written that the Devs deserve the benefit of the doubt and more.

Adjustments according to "Mike of the Desert" or "Sabaku No Maiku" (not my opinions, keep in mind):

Spoiler: show

1) the whispers' names

The whispers are traslated differently from one language to another (in italian, for instances, they are called with the latin-orum term "NUMEN") but the original wording in japanese was something similar to "receptors" or "intermediaries". People point out that mantaining a traslation similar to the original would've been crucial. Because while the concept of breaking fate by beating the sh** out of it doesn't make any sense,  the concept of interrupting the communication between the Planet's Will/Fate and reality by destroying its receptors is a lot more credibly sized, just like cutting some Kraken tentacles with a sword is more credible than splitting the whole Kraken in a half with it.

2) the escalation problem

Consequence of the previous point. If I literally have to fight and take down Destiny incarnate in the end of part1, what should be topping this at the end of part2 or for that matters, at the beginning of part3? Same problem with fighting Sephiroth so early in the story, the absolutely over-the-top action with power levels to Advent Children and beyond, and the unnecessary One Winged Angel playing, not mentioning the final scenes reminscent of the final Seph VS Cloud fight. Basically they overdid it. Rather than all that DragonBall-level of destruction, make the portal open to some desolate dimension and have the last fight there without going all-out with spectacolarization. What you are fighting (the Harbinger) indeed does exist outside of time and space so you could definitely do that.

3) the Fate Weapon

Since the FF7 worldbuilding already has designed a canonical "defense system" that hypotethically corrects or eliminates threats in the form of Weapons, rather than cramming in the narrative an out-of-place Darksider ripoff, it would be more coherent and elegant to just theorize the existence of yet another different Weapon (Opal Weapon? Amethyst Weapon?) that is specifically designed to intervene when something threatens a specific part of the Planet (its Will, or so called Destiny). Since the group destroys the Fate Weapon receptors, the Fate Weapon still exists, but it cannot interact directly with reality. The concept of a Weapon would be alien to new players, but not any more confusing than the story that actually got portrayed on screen and, unlike the Harbinger, coherent with the enstabilished FF7 universe. The existence of two exceptional individuals (Aerith and Sephiroth) justifies the chance that the "Great River" of Destiny can be altered and therefore the Fate Weapon's necessity to intervene. It makes logical sense since normally people can't even see the Whispers/receptors in the first place, only the Cetra could (and the Cetra would never challenge the Planet's Will) which explains why no one other ever attempted to defy fate. Basically the "Fate Weapon" would be a Weapon that normally operates stealthly and that the characters just happen to unmask due to Sephiroth's plan.

*notice that you don't need to explain all of this with exposition, just restyling the final enemies and naming the Harbinger a "Opal Weapon" or such would carry in and of itself all the meaning

**notice that his adjustment can be possible only if one of Maximilian Dood's theories is incorrect, the one in which he says that the name (Harbinger) is a hint (through Vincent's words in AC) that Jenova seized the control of the Whispers.

***notice that a minor plot hole is still there, as in why Seph doesn't just destroy the Whispers himself.

4) the Portal

Another point in which the youtuber criticizes the Kingdom Hearts symbolism, as Aerith seems to "purify" the Portal with "light". Since the closest thing to "light" in FF7 is Sancta, that scene needlessly muddles the symbolism and creates more problems with the worldbuilding than it solves. Especially since, narratively speaking, after Aerith's "purification" of the portal nothing specific seems to happen, as the party still follows Sephiroth through the Singularity as intended.

*notice that this adjustment assumes that Aerith is using Sancta just for show, and that the general speculation of where the story is heading is correct.

5) The Boss Fight

The Whispers boss fight is indeed lame from a gameplay perspective, especially after the outstanding Rufus and Motorball boss fights earlier. Make it shorter, although the general meaning of it stays the same - you cannot directly defeat the Harbinger/Fate Weapon, but you can disconnect him from its receptors by destroying them. Make the Whispers stronger, less repetitive and more interesting to fight.

*notice, again, that this can be coherent with the game's given definition of the Whispers (as a defense system of the Planet's Will) but only if you don't agree that Jenova has infected the Whispers. The fact that the three final Whispers are inspired by Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo (again confirmed by Ultimania) lends credence to the theory that Jenova infected the Whispers, but not entirely as the Whispers may simply be using memories to shape the REMINISCE SEPHIROTH and the other three. Then again, such a theory would create more problems that it can solve, again: if Jenova and Sephiroth are in control of the Whispers they don't need anyone to defeat the Whispers at all, and are in fact omnipotent. It would solve the problem of why Seph doesn't beat the Whispers himself though, but at the cost of creating other contradictions.

6) The Four Sephiroths

As Ultimania states, there are four Seph in FF7R: ILLUSION, BLACK CAPE, REMINISCENCE and . ILLUSION is the one that exists only in Cloud's mind and that acts as a tormentor, as darkness in his heart (basically, Nomura's Sephiroth). The other is the Seph avatar that takes the bodies of the Black Capes N02 and N49 to interact with the word, in other words BLACK CAPE is the FF7og Sephiroth. The third is a "REMINESCENCE" of the past (supposedly, the Seph that you actually fight, which appears to be crafted by the Whispers) and the final one is the one that invites Cloud to defy destiny and speaks with him at "The Edge of Creation", supposedly all-knowing and coming from the future. Rather than all this confusion, avoid the over-use of Sephiroth in the first part and cut ILLUSION SEPH entirely, cut the boss fight with REMINESCENCE SEPH, and make the BLACK CAPE and Sephiroths to be the same Sephiroth. This to avoid the over-use of the character and the quite exaggerated and distasteful final confrontation.

*notice that this would be possible only if the premises are true and therefore not Aerith nor Sephiroth actually travel in time, they just have a four-dimensional understanding of time thanks to the Lifestream, otherwise the presence of multiple Sephiroths is inevitable; and this once again creates problems as it would imply multiple Clouds, multiple Aeriths, and so on.

There you have it. This is the most optimistic outlook out there on the "Grand Finale" of FF7R, where is it going and how it could have been put on screen in a more smooth way, according to some experts. If you find all of this to be needlessly contrived and uselessly circling around the story themes of FF7 with efforts that should be better directed elsewhere and numerous plot holes along the line, then you can finally perhaps see when I am coming from.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-25 14:34:39 »

Lol @ Nomura's haters. May your heads not explode.

Aside from the fact that I don't hate Nomura (misconception number 1) and that I think many of the changed stuff was actually better (misconception number 2), this is still actually quite interesting. Because you know, there are multi-pages interviews in the ultimania when it's stated over and over again that the idea to create a Remake as the conclusion of the compilation and not as a Remake in the defining sense, was Nomura's. The ending is pretty much all of Nomura's ideas. The light VS dark symbolism, Nomura claims personally it's his contribution. So there, I have trouble putting those words in context since they contradict everything else the dev themselves stated. Probably it has to do with which "the beloved aspects" are in their opinion. In the Ultimania for instance Nomura singles out as an important aspect that he struggled to mantain "the spikyness of Cloud's hair" because as unrealistic as they are, Cloud wouldn't feel Cloud without them.

Ironically, while this may sound out like an incredibly immature and shallow example by him, I actually agree with Nomura there. It is worth mentioning that Nomura is an amazing character designer and that some of the choices he made where fundamental for the greatness of the series. I just remark that his sense of "mantaining" the story could differ from common sense.

I just think he is not as good at writing stories as he is at designing characters. Whoever had the misfortune of reading Cloud's dialogue in both AC and KH seems to agree that while he can definitely make Cloud look cool he doesn't have the slightest sense of how Cloud acts and speaks.

That said, all the FFs have been collective works, so giving Nomura all the blame is generally unreasonable.

There are definitely issues that I personally have with remake just like I have issues with og7 and the compilation, genisis, deep ground, geo-stigma. But the issues I have aren't bad enough to warrant the unbridled fury some people are attacking it with,

LOL the unbridled fury. You meen the consistently 9+ scores on reviews? The huge numbers of copies sold (two of them bought by me?). The universal praise to art direction, sound direction, character design, dialogue writing, combat system, respect for nostalgia, worldbuilding? The whole new wave of fandom the characters are getting?

This game is getting no unbridled fury at all. This far is could very well be the best game of 2020, even if a few big shots are coming next (eg TLOU2), but it's hard to think that personally I could appreciate them more than I did FF7R.

Try defending FF12 and poor YazMat back when that came out and that will give you a sense of what unbridled (and unjustified) hate toward a game is.

The fact is simple, even among those who were overwhelmingly positive about the game (meaning, the majority, me included), even about the narrative changes, the final chapter felt like a huge misstep -one famous italian youtuber even said he agreed with the "remaking history" idea but that the way it was executed, presented and written was still utterly craptacular- and the combat system seems like an early draft of what it could become.

About the combat system it's also worth mentioning that this is again not my own opinion but the devs, who explicitly said that the game was their chance to lay the basics of the battle gameplay, again in the Ultimania.

Those with fury are, in my eyes, those who are blindly defending every last inch of it (just to avoid misunderstanding I don't mean people in this discussion, who everything aside are fundamentally civil) and claiming that this hugely successful game is being "discriminated".

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-24 20:22:51 »

not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7

So you're saying that the gameplay of a full 40hrs game that came out in earlier 2020 and has been praised far and wide as a new peak of jrpg battle systems is actually better than the first 4hrs of a game that came out in 1997.

Yeah, I do agree. It's not that hard to come up with such an uncontroversial analysis, though.

I was trying to convey the sense that while the battle system is definitely an improvement, I'm getting the FEELING (and unlike on the narrative side, here I have no way to back it up, as it may completely turn out untrue, so the emphasis on the word FEELING) that they'll be cutting much of the more nuanced, complex and sometimes hidden stuff that made FF7 such a joy to explore and experiment with, with many hardcore or even entirely missable parts of the gameplay. Of course I do realize that this would mean that the work the devs did is not 100% pristine and perfect, a concept unacceptable to some.

Now you understand why is hard to take some of you seriously. Even if I say that the game is 95% awesome but there's a 5% I find distasteful, you come up with absurd notions such as this one to get across the point that the game should be 100% above of all criticism. Which is basically fanboy-ing.

Yeah, the gameplay of FF7R is better. It's not just better because is modernized, but also because of some very clever choices they made (like taking the stagger system, or putting some emphasis in characters uniqueness). That doesn't mean that every form of criticism toward some design directions taken should be considered heresy.

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Catalogs / Re: [FF7] Qhimm Catalog 3.0 Reports / Requests

« on: 2020-05-24 20:04:54 »

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but just about any visual effect that warps the landscape during battle (eg Titan, Landscaper by Yuffie, Kujata, the Escape spell etc) is turned off if the game animation is switched to 60fps. Not sure if it can be fixed but it's pretty consistent, like it happens 100% of the times if framerate is 60fps and just stops happening at all with framerate not modded. 10fps is really a bummer to play nowadays, so fixing the bug I suppose could be good.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-16 16:59:07 »

Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.

I don't entirely disagree on this, if you wanted some hardcore challenges then you had to know your battle system well, but if you sticked to the main quest there is a bunch of times you can quite ignore the workings of materias altoghether. As I said it was structured this way to give you freedom - you can play ignorantly, but it will make your game dumber and longer (I'm living proof of it) but not as much as it should, and surely there were not as much chances on the other end of the spectrum to go deep and thoughtful, as one would hope. Mods like the ones here are a great incentive to raise the difficulty bar a little, and refresh the experience. I wouldn't say it was wasted potential, but I agree that it left much unexplored.

Not sure FF7R will add depth in the future, though. From the premises I'd say no.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-15 17:13:08 »

I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"

Interesting thing to say. I had FF8 as a gift a month before it came out in Italy. It was in japanese. I didn't understand a single thing, but I went like, ok let's see how far I can get with what I know. Meaning, I didn't understand A SINGLE THING. I had Guardian Force but I was unable to use those. I had access to spells, but had no idea of how to take them. I could use items, and I learned somehow what kanji corresponded to potions. Basically I did nothing but attack, heal myself and grind to boost stats.

Now for the big question: when did I stop playing? When did the game FORCE me to stop playing like a moron?

The answer is, it didn't. I stopped at the end of disc1 because disc2 was damaged and didn't start.

So yeah, I'd say it was a rather forgiving game, in my book.

Videogame magazines where pretty dumb sometimes.

But hey, that reviewer would be happy today, the industry caters to him. Parting the elements in Fire, Ice, Lightning and Wind makes no sense whatsoever, but at least you shouldn't remember all the complicated stuff like magic gravity damage, physical sonic damage and so on. Errr, I mean, you could still ingnore this stuff and play from FF6 to FF9 just fine if you didn't want to go in-depth, but the mere POSSIBILITY to go in-depth may scare out some consumers still. To give them the feeling that they're not understanding the game if they are entirely unwilling to put minimal intellectual effort in it? Yeah, that too might upset consumers. Precious consumers.

Bah.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-15 13:06:36 »

@Izban

Well, first off, everything The Black-caped Man said.

Second, there are various wrong things in your angle.

Starting with this: no one forced the devs to make the choice they made. No one forced them to make another graphical state-of-art game, which forced them to do a way shorter chapter than they could have with a tadbit less maxed-out visuals. Say, if they had kept the graphics at the FFXIII level (and I dare anyone say that it doesn't look beautiful enough) they would've had way more space and resources to concentrate on content, gameplay, writing. I know they would never do that and financially it would be a risky move, I get it, but it's their strategy, their choice, therefore their responsabilty. It's also their strategy -you know where this is going- to make a Midgar-only chapter and announce it as a "full-fledged rpg" with content enough to rival full titles. Honestly they didn't put a lot of effort in content especially in comparison to their announcements. Now, nobody in the right mind expected the content and game-time to be anywhere near the original game in terms of vastity and variety, but in some sections they were straight-off lazy. Now this is forgiven (by most) because re-interpreting and re-enacting a lot of the memorable moments of one of the most beloved sections of one of the most beloved games of history takes a lot of brain-power and effort.

But long story short making excuses for them because "at this point in the original game we had only..." is absurd. It's them in the first place who asked us to looks at this section as a standalone game. If your chosen path is to make a full-fledged RPG in Midgar, make one.

That said, if you pay attention, you'll notice that the (admittedly very good) gameplay they're lying the foundations for already hints heavily at an oversimplification. Red materia have a disconnected slot; Berserk being put in the "Seal" materia alludes the fact that they want to remove some status ailments; physical damage types have been probably cut entirely (not sure, but it looks that way); unlike what you seem to think, they haven't reduced the access to the elements (meaning: the specific magic materia to access them) they have reduced the CHART of elements, which are now only four plus restore. All this stuff hints at a clear will to cut off and simplify, even if they could perhaps change in the future. S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory; those were games with a lot to say, but never for snobs only.

Which brings to my third point. The gameplay of the original, you say, didn't give that much relevance to spells. Funny you saying it, because it's entirely untrue. The point of the original's gameplay was to give you freedom. In my case, my 11yrs old self was given the freedom to be a complete incompetent. I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way but I was given FREEDOM to do so. I started to get the importance of sonic or shoot or piercing damage years later, though from the visuals I guessed that there was some sort of elemental-physical damage. And that's true for spells as well; no one goes throwing a Firaga to Safer Sephiroth, but in the resource management that goes between the start of a dungeon and the boss, understanding when throwing a Firaga rather than a KoR makes the difference if you want to play it smooth. You are not FORCED to play it smooth, you are not DENIED the chance to go around pressing attack over and over with an over-leveled party, you are not PRESSED to follow the optimal route. Which is what makes the game.

Don't get me wrong, FF7R had a very good gameplay with some really clever design choices, but it's in many aspects yet another occasion in which S-E decided that depth and variety can be forsaken to appeal the modern mass tastes. It's a fresh take, but not always an improvement.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-14 20:07:41 »

@DLPB

To the remake's credit, Cloud is more nuanced here. While in the original game you'd see only the "cool uncaring SOLDIER" persona at this stage, in the remake you could clearly notice that the "true" Cloud actually notices and appreciates all the attention and praise he gets from Jessie&co and is slowly warming up to them. Being able to make such subtle nuances visible t's one of the benefits of an Hi-Tech remake.

I agree, you'd stop by Biggs in that situation, but not all that time. It broke my disbelief a little when he mentioned the Leaf House Orphanage out of nowhere in the midst of the battle. If you wanted to make that very good scene when he caresses Cloud's head, you should've made Biggs mention the Leaf House Orphanage in an earlier event; goofy writing.

But here's my point, the scene is in itself forgivable. It's a minor mistake. If you could've fixed it by changing just one sentence (Like in Jessie's dad keycard, a mere "Worry not, the keycards are not traceable") it means that it's not that much of a blunder.

It's the context that makes it unforgivable. Which brings me to the next guy...

@gjoerulv

Just to be clear, I'm arguing with you on the individual quality of some scenes, that's it. "Style over substance" has been S-E motto since many years now and it shows.

FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.

That aside, you said "the devil is in the details" (I thought we had this saying only in Italy, wow). Well I disagree. IF the devil is in the details then Chap18 is either the smallest devil or the biggest detail that I ever witnessed in existence.

What I mean is, sure, Jessie or Biggs or Domino or whatever feel a little forced in certain steps. But you forgive it because you are working toward making a more impactful story in the end.

Except you aren't. Or at least, someone among the writers (I know who I'd pick) isn't. Because you see, they spent time developing the boys in order to make their deaths carry weight... only to make them not dead in the end. They made the Domino part to justify the bust-in... but they removed the capture, the defeat, the imprisonment and the very important Sephiroth part right after.

Long story short, I quite disagree that such mistakes would be a serious offense, if it wasn't for a very misplaced finale that ruins all the trust you've given to the narrators up to that point.

So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-14 13:27:29 »

@gjoerulv:

1. Biggs&co deaths:
Yeah, I agree, or rather, that was my entire point. Building up so well characters and scaling up to such a perfect goodbye scene, then screwing it all up just because hey, kids shouldn't know that a cool and lovable person can die. What a waste damn.

2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
Agreed, but I don't find it such a serious offense. Sure I expected them to come off with some explicative line such as "Yeah, these keycards are anonymous" or "I need to hack this keycard" because I had your very same qualms. That said, it's not all that relevant I don't think that it makes the whole Jessie's subplot stupid. Still pretty goofy oversight, and would've been so easy to fix too.

3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from, mind you, but truth is, if you're in a dangerous situation and find a friend or comrade lying on the floor, you'd stop by. It's not that you know beforehand that they're going to spend their "goodbye speech time". Either to assess his/her dead status, help him/her get back, assist his/her final moments, or whatever may be the case. Unless you're facing an immediate and frontal threat and therefore cannot come near him/her, you would stop. People usually do, even in war situations. Of course is more efficient to just move out and get back to a safe zone, but the istinct is to assist the injured unless you're a trained coldhearted hitman. Which Cloud claims to be (but isn't) and Tifa absolutely isn't. It feels a tadbit forced, but again, not that serious. In comparison with the fact that those goodbye speeches were for naught, moreso, it's really not an issue.

4. Domino:
Hard call. You see, first off Domino isn't a good guy at all. In both games his whole point is that Shinra Inc has made politician representatives like him obsolete and thus the situation doesn't cater to his ego. In both games he assists Avalanche. In both games he somehow does so under the nose of Shinra Inc without getting caught.
That said:

- In the Original, he does out of a complete whim without any worry for his own safety or convenience while in the Remake, because he is a long-time inside agent of a dubiously aligned and suspiciously well-endowed organization;

- In the Original he is the only lone soul caring that Shinra Inc has essentially erased any other form of upper class
and his assistant somehow doesn't bat an eyelid being involved in a sabotage, while in the Remake he is implied to have is own like-minded followers among whom the assistant, and one follower points out that they're risking much.

- In the Original they bust in because Shinra Inc security staff has no internal communication, doesn't give a f*** about security systems in their emergency stairs and doesn't bother paying a single guard who actually looks the monitors, while in the Remake they manage because Domino purposedly covers their tracks, hijacks communications between security guards and has his own alignment.

- In the original, security cards are just thrown in Cloud, Barret and Tifa's faces by complete strangers if they just bother posing as maintenance (yuk, seems legit!) while in the Remake it was a combination of Domino, Hojo and Seph that made it possibile, without all that sillyness, and their menacing appearance is even addressed by employees here and there and justified by them passing as security SOLDIER operatives.

Now, you can tell me Domino is not that credible of a character and you'd be correct, but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.

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General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-13 12:48:47 »

@Kefka

1. Domino and Shinra:
I agree that Domino's execution wasn't 100% believable, but I still think it's an improvement to saying that three guys simply BUSTED in Shinra HQ. I recall the scene with the sleepy camera guard and I had a bit of suspension-of-suspension-of-disbelief there. When Rude catches the team in the elevator I remember thinking: oh, OK,  we ARE getting caught! When a 11yrs old finds a segment hardly believable, something is wrong. Granted, they saved the narration by the fact that you DO get caught in the end, and it's only Seph intervention that turns the tables, whereas Sephiroth's impact in the Remake is less important.

2. The wreck-Midgar/blame Wutai/start Neomidgar plan.
Again, I agree the execution is debatable (and relies much on what Wutai will actually be) but to be fair, it was debatable in the original as well. While there were fans who suspected that the first reactor bombing had something fishy (as Jessie mentions that the explosion was off charts) the second bombing was willingly allowed by Shinra, and the platefall was still their plan. It was also clear in the original that Shinra is somewhat obsessed with the Promised Land way more than the actual feasibility of the plan, somewhat leaving up to debate if the reason was the quick exhaustion of Mako, the pres.Shinra megalomania, or a combination of both. In the Remake, at least, Hojo admits being "using" Shinra and their obsession, which means that at least one among them is aware that the plan is bull. So yeah, overall not that much credible, but a mild improvement I'd say.

3. Moral grey area:
Agreed, they're more on the righteous side, but on the Remake's credit people are more aligned with Shinra in general, and the moral question gets more discussion time.

4. pres.Shinra:
Yeah, a very good speech, which ties into the prophetic tropes of the original game. Back then it was a bit of an hyperbole, nowadays people willingly trading the planet's lifespan for comfort sounds much more fitting.

5. well a whole district DID fall, so the casualties are still pretty high. Though Corneo DOES mention that they were much less than intended.

6. Actually they could solve a lot of problems (including their desperate need to show off and make you fight mr.Sephiroth since part1 and painting some of the themes) with a much simpler choice, ending it at the Nibelheim flashback. I think they scratched the idea because... well because...

7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.
*district falls on Biggs' head*
Me: "way better writing there, guys"
Ending: "Hey, Biggs has a headbump now".
Me "..."

[Spoiler:]

11

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-13 11:23:35 »

@Ric

Spoiler: show

What a stupid, disingenuous example. But I'll entertain it. Yes, it's actually OKAY to have that opinion.

I personally do not care if you do. Wanna know what I care about? The fact that at least in most civilized places, there are laws in place to deal with people  that act on such opinions. I give no shits if you think it's ok to beat someone up, rob a bank or commit mass murder, as long as you're unable to do any of it or get promptly punished if you somehow manage to.

Sure, in your ideal world every opinion is equal to every other, so it's OKAY to have that opinion. The only important thing is that when you act on that opinion you'll be punished after the damage is done. Indeed, if all opinions are equal and all discussions are void, what's the point of having values, ethics, preferences, education? None at all. 

Indeed it would rise the problem of what exactly labels acting on a OKAY opinion a WRONG conduct, since we cannot at all discuss about an opinion being worse than another, and how can you ever hope to educate, say, a kid that having that opinion is bad, or determine by law that a conduct isn't good; but actually in your book it's pointless, the important thing is that when the kid grows up and beats his own kid, police will come and punish him for acting on its OKAY opinion.
 
This may sound off topic but it shows just how ridicolous and socially disruptive would be your golden principle that opinions hold some sort of sacred validity just by virtue of being opinions.

Again you misinterpret what I said. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but at this point, it's obvious that it's on purpose.
Let's break it down:

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same! <- Never said that.
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different <- Never said that
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next <- Completely misinterpreted.

When someone disowns his own statements you know that there's a problem.

please stop acting as if the original game was perfect and any change to it is automatically negative.

If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.

Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

Yeah, I didn’t quote you word-for-word, but those were your points still.

Then told you to stop claiming that your comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH PURISM since you keep referring back to the original game for comparisons.

Of course we are doing comparisons. Never denied it. Purism would be saying that every change is bad per se, which would entail that I hate everything that has changed. I don't. So just drop it.

Right there you admit that having played the original IS a factor in both your current experience and future release expectations.

Of course it is a factor. Never denied that, as well. Point being, you said it is a NEGATIVE factor and that I don't look with excitement at the next installment only because of my alleged purism. I said that you're wrong twice, first off I AM waiting for the next one with excitement, and second the fact that I loved the original is a factor, YES, but a factor that makes me excited. The contrary of whay you said.

Bottom line is: I dislike the ending not because it's different from the original, not because I hate the devs, not because I don't understand it, not because the game sucked but because THAT ENDING IS BAD NARRATIVE. Which is a very simple point that I invested perhaps even too much time exploring, with concepts and reasonings that not once you bothered to contradict and probably didn't even read.

I know it does make you wonder. Which is why I'm out. I won't entertain your misinterpretations, dumb examples, and fallacious arguments any further. I will end it the way I started. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

Sure. You can quit the discussion anytime you like. Stop doing you will and prosecute the discussion, then. Talk about contradictions.

But you know what? I'll make you a favor. Despite the fact that the one who keeps stating he wants to cut off is you, I will. I will ignore your next reply whatever you write on it. That way you can be at peace.

Not that you bother reading people analysis or opinions (which makes sense, since in your vision opinions shouldn't be confronted at all) but you may notice that Kefka made a very long post of his impressions, some of whom I don't agree with -being on the pro-Remake side of the fence, mostly- but we can discuss in a civilized and logical way about it. And no, "logical" doesn't equal to "agree with me". That's what I enjoy doing, in a thread about DISCUSSING the remake. Not dealing with what is basically an idle repetition of the same three moot points: you're a purist, you're arrogant, my opinion is mine only.

tldr
So there, I concede. I drop my hat to you. Kudos.

12

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-12 22:27:49 »

Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.

You have a bad relationship with logic I see. Sure, your opinion would be subjective (as long as it isn't backed by a reasoning) but it wouldn't matter. "Objective" is not "Gospel". "Objective" is a statement all parties in a discussion agree about and "objective" are the conclusions stemming from that statement if logically connected.

If you agree that: FF7 didn't need more contrivance (premA) and the addition add more contrivance (premB) then you recognize that the addions are a problem (conclusion). It's not that the two premises are biblical truth, it's just the connection that is logic and sound, assuming we all accept the premises.

A correct objection would be: I love even more contrived plots, so I don't agree with you at all. <---------- that would be objective, as THERE IS A LOGIC CONNECTION and I couldn't deny it. It doesn't matter at all if YOU like contrivance and I don't, or if YOU like contrivance and the whole rest of humanity doesn't, your reasoning would still be valid. It's the connection that  makes it valid.

And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.

Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".

You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.

Dude...

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things  that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude

Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.

However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one.

Given the desperate level of fanboyism you're showing, I highly doubt it.

I am making food examples to show how hard you're trying to make excuses for someone who marketed their product as something different, crammed an extraneous plot device after assuring everyone for months that they wouldn't do exactly that, and risked it all leaving ultimately a bad aftertaste  in many of us.

And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.

 

...Nah. I'm out.

I sympathize with your inability to follow.

Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.

13

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-12 19:52:04 »

Completely subjective.

I think you confound "objective" with "crystal clear undeniable 100% certain truth" which is something that doesn't exist in this world. I am saying is "objective" because we all agree with the premises, which bear the conclusion. Which makes it not my opinion.

Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better). These premises are accepted by both of us? Yes. Conclusion: at the point in time we are now, it wasn't an improvement, at best it will be in the future. This is "objective" insomuch as if you agree on the premises, you should agree on the conclusion. It's called logic.

Of course demonstrating that "it's not better" is different from demonstrating that "it's worse". A different matter altogether. Also logic.

Again, completely subjective.

Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

Again, an opinion is a reasoning. It's not sacred just because it is an opinion, otherwise people would and could communicate just crude facts.

Example of an opinion that I stated and that no one of you bother contradicting:
-premise A: FF7 as a good protagonist
-follow up to A: the protagonist is good because (among other reasons) he's ill-equipped to deal with the obstacles he faces, AKA he's not a "chosen" protagonist
-premise B: the concept of fate means someone is destined to succeed, thus functionally well-equipped to overcome
-conclusion: introducing FATE diminishes the protagonist's impact

This is "objective" in the meaning that the connection is logical and verifiable. The fact that it's objective doesn't mean that it is a religious dogma though. For instance you could object that Cloud is not a good protagonist, or that he works fine as a chosen one, etcetera.

That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.

If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material. A goodbye sequence as emotional as Biggs', following with the "hooo, he survived!" reveal, is a dead giveaway of low quality. Since I think that most of the changes will be for the best, I'm still intentioned to buy the next. It's pretty self-evident that I am anything but a purist, it's just that you don't know any better objection than this one.

If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.

By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.

Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?

See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.

14

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-12 17:37:25 »

Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.

Most restaurant in Italy keep the same menu actually. Incidentally, not me. I do a major overhaul of the recipes every week.

Innovation is good, that's why I appreciated most of the changes in FF7R.

Point is -I repeat over and over- not every change is equal to another. And if a change I decide for is contested, my answer won't be: "well, there's a chance that it doesn't suck". Change have to be improvement, not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.

If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.

Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game,

Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No. Is it more contrived? Yes. Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse, but you trust that it will turn out good in the future. Let's hope you are correct. At this point in time, it's just worse.

If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.

You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful. The automated content of such replies make me wonder if you reply without bothering to read, or if you simply know that you couldn't object. This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is, and we're making our points, which you pretend to ingnore. The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.

15

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-12 12:34:39 »

But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad,

Sure, you are right. The "Cap is a rapist" example was an hyperbole meant to show that just because 97% of a work is the same, it doesn't mean that 3% can't do any serious damage. Not every plot change is equivalent to another, that was my point.

so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.

Actually there is a very long list of reasons to why it's very hard to cram into FF7 timelines, resurrections, fate and multiple Sephiroth's appearances without ruining the story. I've written one myself a few posts ago.  But let's assume you are correct, I still don't understand your logic.

FF7's plot was amazing. We all agree about that I think. Now you're telling me: well, they changed it, and as of now it could still play out as amazing, or end up being crap. We cannot know for sure.

Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?

The only logical answer would be, I know (read: think) that it will surely surpass the original. Wouldn't risk it otherwise. Which means that my basic goal is to subistitute the original with the new. Because I don't have that much high esteem for the original.

So in order to be a good change, it has to be:
1) it goes entirely on a different route and therefore it's amazing -------> implies the original wasn't that good
2) it goes "back on track" and plays as the original ------> implies the changes were bad
3) it keeps this route of being "mostly like the original" but with a disruptive subplot that yet somehow serves the original plot ----> a lot of effort for a mediocre result

So either one thinks the plot of FF7 is not all that much, or it's probably going to be at least slightly worse than the original.

which I have no reason to doubt post remake

Possibly. Since there's so much good stuff in this remake, it's hard to think they will entirely screw it all up. The following chapter will probably be another amazing game. There are at least three chapters though (Nomura said he wanted to do many) and this doesn't bode well. The fact that by the interviews Nomura and Kitase seem in disagree about how to prosecute the project makes me worried as well.

[Spoiler:]

16

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-12 12:12:58 »

@Kefka:

Good heavens, finally a decent discussion. Well, I agree and disagree with some points there. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler: show

1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.

2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.

3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.

4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.

5. Jessie: yes, a good expansion. Not the only one though. I think that the Trio in the Wall Market sequence, along with Beautiful Bro Jules and a few other touches in that chapter were great stuff. It took the progressive tone of the story of 1997 (a game that had the audacity of showing a trans, a tailor with a cross-dressing passion, homosexuality and prostitution) and took it to 2020 with a thoughtful approach without becoming a boring political commentary but rather a silly and goofy section, as it was meant to be originally. Kazushige Nojima at its very best writing here. Characters in the slums like Floria and Mireille also served their purpose decently.

6. Roche: mostly agree. I appreciate the choice of showing actually a SOLDIER that gets called by name, since in the original game they were described as this super-elite Foxhound style army where not even one of them had any significance, power or ever the courtesy of a name. And I would agree with the writers that, if you had to insert any SOLDIER character it shouldn't be that much important, so the cocktail they proposed (a stereotypical "bloodknight" archetype with a pretended rivalry as comedic relief) is a good choice, in my book. It was so poorly executed, though, that it ends up as quite forgettable. In italian (dunno in english) he says: "It's been a while since I landed my feet on ground".... good heavens, what a stupid quote. Memes here in Italy about Roche having a shower and taking a dump while on his motorbike abounds.

7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.

8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience. But on to the hardest of points...

9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.

10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way  to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.

11. Barret revived: unjustifiable.

12. Hojo and his "combat data": not a serious offense as others, but still pretty dumb. One or two lines of different dialogue would've removed the problem, really.

13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.

14. Chadley: ...whatever. What a dumb idea.

15. The bloodbath: here I do more than agree with you. Actually you made me remember how I felt as a kid and figure better why I was so disappointed. Shinra seemed unstoppable until that moment, and here comes in Sephiroth, making Shinra seem like powerless clerks in suit facing an ubermensch. Here Sephiroth is depicted by the n.1 threat since the beginning, devaluing the coup-de-theatre at its core.

16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.

17

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-11 17:50:54 »

They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.

"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".

Your review: "I cannot fathom why people don't understand how 3 minutes are mathemathically less than the remaining 117 thus the story didn't really change much. In fact it's only the 2,6% different. What's the fuss about?".

Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

Opinions are reasonings. If all were equal and undistinguishable there would be no point in even discussing them.

"I think racism is a-ok, socially productive and well founded within science".
"Well, actually it's not, you see, tons of literature can prove otherwise".
"I have my opinion and it entails that I entirely disregard all of that literature".
"I too have an opinion I thus I must respect that you also do".
"There you have it, you cannot touch my opinion".
"Correct, neither can you".
"Cool".
"Cool".

This whole "I have my opinion thus I cannot be contradicted" is the trademark for people who don't want to discuss. Which is fine mind you. Online discussions, though, require an ability to make a case and stand for it. If you cannot, chances are you're wrong. As easy as that.

And after pages and pages of literally a detailed description of when, how and why the additions don't go well with the story, which you don't bother to answer to let alone object or contradict, you're quite disrespectful too.

If the strongest points you can make is that any narrative change is equal to any other and any opinion is valid as any other, I suggest you stop bothering. I certainly will.

18

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-10 20:44:27 »

"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."

Imo, FF7R tells the same story...

I don't mean no offense, but I can't understand under what contrived logic something can be a sequel of storyXYZ and still be storyXYZ. If Aerith, Sephiroth and RedXIII know the original timeline and will alter this timeline using that knowledge, this is literally, logically and undeniably the prosecution of the FF7 compilation.

The prosecution of a story can be a remake of that story as much as you can be a new hairstyle of your grandfather. Entirely illogical.

Did they state explicitly over and over again that it would've been a faithful remake? Yes. Is that lying? Yes. No murky territory here. None.

Now if you like being sold one product with the name of another, your own taste, good for you. It's reasonable to expect that some people don't. And the fact that literally 17/18th of this game is exactly what we asked and paid for is what makes us so carefree. Rest assured that if the next game will be all like chap18 you'll get a very different reaction.

Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I don't care at all what you have issues with or not. Your tastes matter to me as mine should matter to you, which is to say, nothing. I am discussing bad or good writing here, not tastes. You found FF7R ending to be terrific? Fantastic, I'm happy for you. No objections here. Was it good writing? No.

And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic. Was it necessary to make Zack survive in order for FF7R to be a better story? No.

You can argue that it will help keeping the hype up for the next chap, or it will help sell a new game about Zack? Will people be bothered by not knowing who Zack is or Zack is at this point well-known enough? None of this has any relevance. The only relevant thing is, it didn't do any good to the plot. You're not even trying to contradict this. You're just saying it won't do that much damage. I hope you're correct. It further proves my point though.

I still think the major plot points (...) are the same.

First,
you seem unable to discern the theme of a story from the events of a story. If I add just a single tiny line at the end of King Arthur's story and that single line happens to be:
"And Arthur reigned like a tyrant, drowning the country in tears and blood for decades until he passed away"
I have altered what the story is about. I have distorted the meaning, the theme of the arthurian epic. You may come here and say: "But it's just one line of text, there are literally THOUSANDS of lines who are still faithful to the original!" But you'd look like a fool. Because your objection holds no ground. The story is shattered no matter how you look at it.

Now, in FF7R case things are not as tragic, but repeating obsessively that most events are the same shows indifference to what the story is about.

Second,
I think you should take notice that the devs already released interviews, essentially confessing to the audience that they are monitoring our response to the ending to understand what the fans want.

Meaning, if those who want a brand new Nomura-style product will amount to the majority, the story will go more and more off-track, if not the story will play similar to the first game, with nearly everything faithfully reproduced until a disruptive element comes in.

This alone, admitted to-your-face by the devs, says enough about how sincerely authorial the new ending is.

19

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-10 09:32:33 »

@Kefka:

(and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is).

Oh yeah, that too. I almost forgot, thanks. False advertising more or less.

visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls.

Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.

20

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-10 09:30:12 »

@Devina

Ok, you don't always pay attention, but at least pay attention to what has been said right now.

Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

Clearly you find more credible storytelling in Aerith convincing someone that Cloud is compromised, Meteor will come and be absolutely unstoppable, and the best solution is using a weapon which acts on its own and could potentially decide to wipe humanity away, rather then Aerith just saying ok cannot rely on these humans and go off by herself and do my Cetra stuff. What can I say, it's a fine line, I'm not going to argue with you over it.

I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting,

I find FFXIII to be interesting and entertaining due to unique feel, amazing lore and stunning art direction, doesn't imply it is well-written or well-structured and I would certainly never argue with someone that it had been overall a disappointing game. You are entirely entitled to find entertaining or exciting whatever you wish as much as anyone, it doesn't speak for its quality though.

It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

No they shouldn't. People shouldn't want a remaster (which would be "the same journey, only on HD") but not a reboot either. A remake is a specific thing. It's allowed to change and add (and as I already said, most changes where good in my book) but not to warp the whole meaning and concept of the plot. Which it did. Technically though, since Sephiroth here clearly KNOWS what happened in the original game, as does Aerith, it's  not even a reboot and is a straight-up sequel. The farthest thing from a remake that was possible.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me.

Then you are basically saying I am correct. It's a narrative that requires you to know other narratives to be appreciated and, most importantly, at least understood. Bad writing again, with marketing in mind.

Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original.

There's nothing bad about confusing plots. The point being, contrivance should be there to enpower the plot's meaning and message, not to devalue it.
 

. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

No they're not. I've invested ten minutes of my time writing a post about it, and I don't see you contradicting anything, so as I said, the plot beats cannot be the same, and most importantly they cannot bear the same meaning anymore.

[Spoiler:]

21

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-09 16:28:59 »

FF7 themes: 1.acceptance 2.loss 3.ecology 4.consumism/fake news 5.cosmic horror&psychology (aka: Sephiroth)
FF7R themes: 1.destiny 2.freedom

For all the FF7 themes the whispers-subplot changes do more harm than good.

For the FF7R themes the whispers-subplot is handled poorly.


FF7 themes:

Spoiler: show

1. acceptance
Destiny and fate are hardly suited for a protagonist that is the entire opposite of a chosen hero. Cloud is such an amazing protagonist because he is weak, petty, unstable, and even submissive. He is presented as a somewhat cool jerk but then revealed to be a weakling, an impostor and pretty much a serf to evil, which makes his initial pretended coolness even more upsetting. He rises up from that through humility, sincerity, acceptance, friendship and effort. Proposing him as someone chosen by the Planet's planned Destiny, a fated hero to face with Sephiroth  on equal terms (and they even interact on equal terms, something that Sephiroth did never do in the original game) undermines all of it. Cloud was chosen by no one and became a hero through an hard path. The Planet had no "plan" for Cloud, in fact the only one who had a plan for Cloud is Sephiroth, a plan Cloud follows through until he accepts who he really is. Throw in that the Planet has a destiny for him and you diminish all of this.

2. loss
What's the point of an irreplaceable loss if there are multiple timelines? If you can fight destiny and negate death, even deaths that have already happened? The tragedy of death is that it is final and irreversible, a story about death that want a tiny bif of educational value should respect that. As the story is headed now, to convey a sense of loss you should make the point that timelines are multiple but certain events still happen no matter what and/or timelines cannot interact with each other. Meaning you'll have to contradict and nullify your own premises. Otherwise, the concept of loss is greatly devalued. See Rick&Morty, where alt. timelines carry the necessary consequence that the universe-travelers are emotionally detatched and depressed since nothing matters much. No surprises that everyone is saying: "keep calm! Aeris will still die somehow I'm sure!" which in and of itself shows that opening up the chance that she doesn't is already a pejorative change.

3. ecology
As I said, I think you missed a few story steps. The original game left open to interpretation if Holy killed humanity or not, or if didn't kill humanity but destroyed big metropolis like Midgar, Junon, etc. This was a beautiful counter-point to the human assumption that humanity=good; the characters mention this, saying that safety of the Planet is in itself something to fight for since without the Planet the demise of the human race is not a risk but a certainty, so they go along with Aeris plan. This was already devalued in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, who postulated that Holy did just some unspecified damage to Midgar and nothing more. RedXIII in the remake explicitly says that the "written" future (with the Midgar ruined and covered in vegetation) is one to avoid, meaning that summoning Holy and allowing it to defend the Planet is likely a "bad ending". Which strongly implies that the good ending is a far less controversial way to neutralize Meteor without bothering humans. Further implied by the fact that the whispers are the will of the Planet according to RedXIII, so beating the whispers means opposing the Planet. The provoking trope of: who's better, the Planet or Humans? Is gone.

4. consumism and fake news
that is arguably treated and shown better in the remake than in the original, and nothing about chap18 undervalues it directly, it just overshadows the whole theme of "we are a band of rogues in a world that thinks that Shinra is progress and comfort". Since speaking of a consumist society who willingly refuses to believe the truth in order to preserve their convenience is a very down-to-earth matter, and borders into politicaly commentary; inevitably "fighting fate incarnate" drives the plot away from it.

5. cosmic horror&psychology
the villain of FF7 was a succesful combination of different themes. Seph in himself is a de-humanized person created by Shinra to function as a propaganda tool and living weapon, so he is in a way the personification of humanity's sins. But he is also credible psychologically. His extreme loneliness, fragile identity, need for a mother's affection and founded sense of estrangement are all very sound reasons to do what he does. He essentially aspires to merge with every soul and become everybody, both punishing humanity for making a tool of him, erasing his identity problem and finding a "mother"; he is coherent, and thus well-written. Jenova, on the other hand, is a lovecraftian shapeshifting alien who merges with every body and psyche and then moves to the next planet, so it's perfectly coherent that she profits from having Sephiroth as a powerful vessel. The boundaries between Sephiroth and Jenova are unclear, as both share the same goal and view the other as a very crucial part of themselves or even as the necessary evolution of themselves. Both are coherent antagonists in their motivations and coherent one to the other. Good writing. This masterpiece relationship was already devalued by Nomura stating that Sephiroth's will has erased Jenova in an interview years later (which was contradicted anyway by Nomura himself via Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core etc)  and in chap18 is entirely thrown out of the window, by making Sephiroth show more interest in Cloud and Cloud's doing -with interactions that are a far cry from their original ones- than in merging with the lifestream. In the Sec5 Church sequence Sephiroth even states to Cloud in japanese "I am your tyrant" (in english: "I am your everything") something Sephiroth would never ever say in the original game, where he considers Cloud just another one of his pawns. In short, Sephiroth is re-elaborated as Cloud's personal nemesis and tormentor, or "Cloud's inner darkness" as Nomura stated when talking about their relationship in (remarkably) Kingdom Hearts. The disparity in interactions between the two were extremely disturbing in the original, as they also hinted to Cloud's lies, besides Sephiroth's trascendent nature. So in short yes, chap18 did much of a disservice to Sephiroth's character as it possibly could.

FF7R themes

Spoiler: show

1. Destiny
Postulating that the Planet has a "plan" specified for every individual is already a fragile narrative choice, but it becomes downright absurd if the "plan" has to be concretely executed by some invisibile specters. Destiny has a meaning as a concept when physical events and people actions (and thus, their will) are manipulated into a global plan, not if there is a thinking entity that orders some specters to contradict what actually happens. The whispers are not really overseeing fate, they are retconning reality. Which they could do if they either are outside of a self-consistent time (like the aliens in the movie Arrival) and therefore no one would have a prayer of harming them unless they intended, or they are ineffible, omniscient and all-powerful beings with their own agenda (like the Occuria of FF12) which would make THEM those who "defy destiny", actually, and wrecking their plans by beating the sh** out of them impossible, moreso with the limited power Cloud&co have at that point. They are entirely illogical no matter how you slice it. But assuming they were, and with a few slices shots and punches you can somehow "break" destiny, it makes sense if the road of destiny is opened AFTER the event, not before it; meaning you could get Aeris to live, but not Zack (or Biggs, etc); and if somehow it's broken even before it, why is it broken at some points and not others? Why the destiny of Zack's death should be rewritten and not that of Zack's birth? Or has beating a bunch of ghosts on a highway in Midgar opened a Schroedinger wide range of millions of parallel timelines including some where Zack or Cloud or Sephiroth or mankind was never born? Only extremely coherent and attentive writers can manage timeline altering, and the writing here is entirely incoherent to its own premises.

Now when you make your own fantasy laws in a fantasy story and you cannot follow them yourself, what is it? Bad writing.

2. Freedom: here it gets entirely meta-narrative. Because it's not the characters freedom that was obtained by beating the whispers, as the character are none the wiser than before; it was the writers. The characters are blindfolded about fate as they were in the original timeline where fate didn't even get into consideration. Therefore either 1)beating the whispers bear no consequence or 2)the characters start behaving in a fundamentally different way and making fundamentally different choices without rhyme or reason or 3)the characters must from now on follow the lead of someone who sees beyond destiny be it Seph, Aeris, Bugenhagen or whatever, to make use of the branching paths they opened, since they themselves have no clue.

Which means essentially means than in 1) and 2) it's flat-out bad writing as it disregards cause-effect, in case 3) they are less free now than they were before. In short, it's not Cloud&co's freedom you fought for in chap18, it's Nomura's, Kitase's etcetera.

Keep in mind that none of this is proof that part2 will suck. At all. It only proves how narratively misplaced and bad the changes of chap18 are and most part2's good will come from getting back on track, if they do.

22

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-09 13:31:09 »

she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection.

When you catch up with Seph/Jenova he is already at the northern crater with Black Materia. Consider that Aeris has to call Holy ASAP (which she ultimately does, but Sephiroth then contains it at the Planet's core). She's short on time. Finally, and most importantly, she should have convinced the group that
A: ditching Cloud's leadership was necessary (sort of easy, at that point, but not guaranteed)
and
B: summoning a spell that could potentially kill many or every human being was a good solution (not easy at all)
All while, I remark, she was pretty short on time. And consider that the only member in the party showing more connection with Aeris than others is Yuffie, which is sort of unreliable, and maybe RedXIII; Yuffie, like Cid and Caith Sith, cares a lot about worldly matters and would hardly play along with a plan that involves Holy. Though that is up to debate since in the end the party is convinced that Holy is necessary (that is, though, after Meteor proves indestructible), so yeah, maybe she could have spilled the beans. In the end, though, I'm not sure it would've changed that much.

I honestly suspect you didn't pay attention to the story in some steps the story takes.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes.

Sure thing. As long as these themes don't contradict themselves. Many of the themes of FF7 are straight-up broken by what was presented in chap18. And besides, it also matters that you know how to handle these new themes (destiny, fate) and they're handed poorly. I'm not voicing my mere opinion here, though. I could write a demonstration, easily. But since it's a bit long, I'll put it in a following post and in a block, you may jump it if you're not interested.

It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2.

Probably not, no. But just saying "relax, it's not like it will be all like chap18!" speaks enough of chap18 actual quality compared to the rest of the content.

Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not.

Suddenly removed, no; put at risk, yes. See the spoiler blocks in the following post if you're interested.

It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

Once again, saying "relax! Zack is alive, but there's a chance he'll die regardless!" is a good signal of how good of a choice is to make some deaths who where definitive and certain (Zack, Biggs, Jessie, etc) as temporary and modifiable events. You're basically saying that you're happy knowing (or rather, believing) that they'll get back on-track, and yet going off track was good still. I don't get this logic.

And it's terribly meta-narrative too. It assumes that only those who played the original FF7 will play the remake, so certain events can carry their weight only if made uncertain. But for new players, what's the meaning of the Zack scene? None.

Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.

A story can be very mature even involving resurrections, or time travel, or timelines. The point is what you do with it. Childish narrative is childish when it doesn't take responsability, and writes only what makes the writer or the reader or both the happiest, without any regard for the premises, rules and themes of the story. I'd certainly have been happier as a 11 year old if Aeris just came back at the end of the game, but she didn't. And that made the story more meaningful and good. Making me "happier" back then would have been childish.

23

General Discussion / Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!

« on: 2020-05-08 16:53:14 »

You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself".

I think that Yuna would. That is, if at some point Yuna realized that Tidus had somehow become the group leader and center and yet Tidus is a mythomaniac liar who attempted to strangle her, possibly because he is actually controlled by the enemy, say if once or twice Seymour gave orders and Tidus fell in trance and obeyed. Especially if Tidus has thrown a speech hours before, about getting a certain mass-destruction weapon before Seymour because Seymour has so many mindless slaves who could throw their life away to get the weapon for him, and then it is demonstrated that the mindless slave was none other than Tidus itself, who did in fact provide the mass-destruction weapon for Seymour.

Among all this, Yuna is also in love with Tidus, or what she perceives to be Tidus.

Yes, I think in such circumstances Yuna would distance herself from Tidus immediately. In Yuna's case the group is more connected to her than to Tidus, in Cloud's case is the opposite. Another reason to do exactly what Aeris did.

For as much as I utterly prefer Tifa, selfishness and stupidity hardly are traits of Aeris. Would nullify the whole story if they were, actually, since Aeris ultimately saves the day.

You know, I've spent most of my teenage and twenties saying that FF7 was an overrated game and undeservedly overshadowing other JRPGs but I'm in my thirties now and looking back, it's surprising to re-discover how foreseeing, vast, cohesive and deep the narrative was. I think most people don't even realize it fully. Which brings us to the next:

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I have an hard time realizing how you could think that Zack&co returning to life is a problem for the story themes and meaning and yet not despise the very same narrative device that made this insult of a plot twist possibile. A lone chapter was enough to destroy most of the FF7 themes all in a single shot, I am amazed about how lightheartedly people are taking this.

And purism have nothing to do with it. Screw Purists. But who are purists anyway? Nobody denies that the game was flat-out great because, and not despite, its differences. There were a lot of things that where entirely different in this FF7R, and all for the better. Biggs, Jessie, the Avalanche, Wutai, the Turks, Wall Market, Beautiful Bro, Honey Bee, Hojo's Lab, Barret. All different and revamped, and all utterly awesome. Why? Because they took the original and made expanded, modernized and re-imagined takes of it.

Chap18 is a different beast. It's spitting on all the themes that gave the story meaning and impact, and turning them to a childish Kingdomhearted narration where death, time, tragedy, effort, self-conscience and even ecology are all meaningless. And it was possibile with timelines and broken destinies. If that's what you call breathing new life in a story, well, you certainly are an happier person than I am right now.

24

Releases / Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)

« on: 2020-05-07 12:22:19 »

Hi SegaChief, just one info:

the guy in this vid is playing New Threat mod, assumedly freshly downloaded, with the 7thHeaven manager. I noticed that he uses very detailed field models (for NPC) and battle models (for enemises) which I assumed were within 7thHeaven but apparently not. Could you tell me if these are part or not of the New Threat mod itself and, if not, where they could possibly come from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuwEuDY-uaY

25

Catalogs / Re: [FF7] Qhimm Catalog 3.0 Reports / Requests

« on: 2020-05-07 11:09:12 »

I'm not sure I understood. So New Threat makes its own field models and battle models? Just so that I know. Actually I saw someone playing New Threat on youtube and all the field models were different... so if I activate New Threat and disable field and battle models it will give me other models?

Nope, I tried. I was misled by a youtube video saying he had installed New Threat. He had different field and battle models, not sure where did he get those from. I'm positive that New Threat in itself doesn't alter the models, but since it places new NPCs and such on the field, maybe this interacts with the models somehow and  that's the reason the result is messed up. Not sure.