[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

[Asherdoom]

So with the new hotfix, is Cloud supposed to get the Limit Boost every time someone in the party uses a limit break or just when he does? Because right now it's the former and he gets a buff every time someone else uses a limit break in addition to when he does. Just confirming.

Wondering if (and others can answer this one for sure) you get to choose your upgrade path each time you rank up using SP? Like you can choose a different one each time and you're not locked into the first one you chose correct? Also how gimped would I be in arrange mode if I never use the rank up system except for the first time?

Do you unlock limit breaks (except for Level 4) the same way as in vanilla? And when I use the Elemental materia, what stat governs the amount of damage I do and what element am I attacking with each time? A little unsure how that materia works in general. Thanks!

Yes, cloud get a buff each time someone uses a limit which decay over time (opposed to Red  XII that the more in combat the more stack he gets)

and concernign SP eacjh time you kill enemies you get some SP points (you can check em in save points pressing SWITCH or SQUARE button. once you got enough of them you press R2 and you will access the menu to choose the path.
EACH TIME YOU GOT ENOUGH SP YOU MUST REPEAT THE PROCESS, which means that you can choose alternative ways to buff your chars depending in the decision you do. to be more clear, for example if for cloud you choose MAKONOID first time you get sp stuff going, the next time you can choose EX-SOLDIER for example

There may be something wrong with your Scene.bin; I checked the files and Kalm Fangs are all set to take double damage from Fire. Fire2 also has the correct flags set in the Kernel.

i dunno what the problem was so as a good and ignorant person in programming i restored the vanilla FFVII removing the mod and resintalled it from zero! I checked back in kalm area and yes now wolves get pwned with fire spells duno which the problem was !

[UpRisen]

So with the new hotfix, is Cloud supposed to get the Limit Boost every time someone in the party uses a limit break or just when he does? Because right now it's the former and he gets a buff every time someone else uses a limit break in addition to when he does. Just confirming.

Wondering if (and others can answer this one for sure) you get to choose your upgrade path each time you rank up using SP? Like you can choose a different one each time and you're not locked into the first one you chose correct? Also how gimped would I be in arrange mode if I never use the rank up system except for the first time?

Do you unlock limit breaks (except for Level 4) the same way as in vanilla? And when I use the Elemental materia, what stat governs the amount of damage I do and what element am I attacking with each time? A little unsure how that materia works in general. Thanks!

1: Cloud should get it on first limit used and it should not happen again until cloud takes 6 actions. Verify that you are using the most up to date version of the mod and the most up to date exe file.

2. You can choose the option every time

3. limit unlocking is the same as vanilla. support materia (the blue one) only work when paired in a linked slot with another materia. For elemental it will either give your attack damage or your armor defence vs the element of the materia it is paired with. You can see the materias element when you select it in the materia menu, it will be the element in yellow under the name on the stats tab.

Slum Drunk: +15 STR, +10 VIT/LCK<----------srsly..... aeris being a mage get str??? O_o can ya change with 15 vit10luck/5 spr

Half of her weapons and her innate make her an ideal tank when picking this option , the str option is better for her here, and its really fun to beat things to death with one of her staffs.

[jugend]

I posted about this in the discord, but getting time flare from Gaea dragon was absolute hell due to no manipulate, single target skill, and used extremely rarely. I spent nearly an hour trying to get it, had to revert back to the old patch to get him to use the earth aoe instead, and it still took forever, seems hes got too many skills and that it's usage is very low priority?

[Zara9]

hey sega chief

I have a neat idea, is there anyway you could put in a skip chocboo races option after someone beat dyne on coel prison, if thats poissable

[Sega Chief]

I posted about this in the discord, but getting time flare from Gaea dragon was absolute hell due to no manipulate, single target skill, and used extremely rarely. I spent nearly an hour trying to get it, had to revert back to the old patch to get him to use the earth aoe instead, and it still took forever, seems hes got too many skills and that it's usage is very low priority?

I think he uses it as a counter-attack whenever he's struck by a Limit Break.

hey sega chief

I have a neat idea, is there anyway you could put in a skip chocboo races option after someone beat dyne on coel prison, if thats poissable

When the Chocobo Race is lost, a better Chocobo is given to the player. I upped the stats on all Chocobos given if I remember right.

[apfrosty]

I have some bugs to report, not sure if its the exactly place, I'll delete later if it is.

The rank-up option on caith sith is bugged, the option we choose isnt the right one, we get different sources, its working like ''if I choose this one, I'll the get the sources that the option above offers'' seems like a graphical bug, not sure (only on caith sith, not sure about cid or vincent since i didnt get them yet).

Also on rank up system, randomly the thing that give us the powers starts to explain what the randomizer is (usually after I make a deal), and I cannot choose the option ''leave'' to leave the menu, so I gotta choose ''make a deal'' and he will say I gotta fight more, then it quits to the save menu as it should.

And about chocobuckle, which I asked later, i've been bombarding Quarry fuse skill on chocobos and they're not using chocobuckle skill :c Do i need to feed them the right greens or they need to be lvl 16, I think i'm doing something wrong (my question mark is broke, sorry).

[Sega Chief]

I have some bugs to report, not sure if its the exactly place, I'll delete later if it is.

The rank-up option on caith sith is bugged, the option we choose isnt the right one, we get different sources, its working like ''if I choose this one, I'll the get the sources that the option above offers'' seems like a graphical bug, not sure (only on caith sith, not sure about cid or vincent since i didnt get them yet).

Also on rank up system, randomly the thing that give us the powers starts to explain what the randomizer is (usually after I make a deal), and I cannot choose the option ''leave'' to leave the menu, so I gotta choose ''make a deal'' and he will say I gotta fight more, then it quits to the save menu as it should.

And about chocobuckle, which I asked later, i've been bombarding Quarry fuse skill on chocobos and they're not using chocobuckle skill :c Do i need to feed them the right greens or they need to be lvl 16, I think i'm doing something wrong (my question mark is broke, sorry).

The menus need an flevel patch because the boxes weren't set with the new max number of choices (and I think there was a logic issue with the selections as well that I've sorted out). I'll have the patch up tomorrow.

For chocobuckle, I think they need Mimmet Greens fed to them first; this sets an AI flag that lets them react to L4 Suicide (aka Quarry Fuse).

[jugend]

I think he uses it as a counter-attack whenever he's struck by a Limit Break.

Hahha, I wish I had of known that, I didn't use any as I was purposely trying to keep him alive. Now that I think about it, it was right after I used bloodfang on red xiii to restore MP, that I learned it.

[ChipNoir]

I'm having trouble finding out what Cait Sith's Innate ability is for 1.5. The game didn't verify it the way it has for other characters.

[Nersil]

Hey
Can anyone write down where can I find those enemy skills (or how to get them)? Coz i think description of the newest version is messed up or im just noob and cant find out, how to trigger enemy

Anyway, those enemy skills are mistery for me:
-Trine
-Magnitude8
-Deathcharge

Thx

[Sylas420]

Hey Sega Chief, thanks for the hard work on the mod. I've been enjoying it so far, but I think I may have run into an issue, or I'm not understanding something properly.

I'm level 21 and just unlocked the Rank Up system and it seems like I am not getting the proper amount of Sources. It's like I am only getting 1 Source for every 5 Points that I should increase; so if I choose something that gives +10 to Str/Vit along with the basic +5 to all stats, I'll end up with 3 Power and 3 Guard (+10 From Upgrade => 2 Source, +5 All Stats => 1 Source), then 1 of each other source... So instead of Cloud going from 37 Str to 52 Str, he went to 40 Str . I got the same results for ranking up all other chars - only getting 1 Source for every 5 Points I was suppose to increase.

I'm new to this mod, so maybe this is intentional, but if I can only Rank Up 8 times then Cloud would gain a Maximum of 24 Str throughout the course of the game, if I chose to give him a +10 Str Upgrade each time. This doesn't seem right, and now I'm hesitant to play anymore if the Rank Up system is doing this. I'll never be powerful enough if this is the case.

I'm using the v1.5 that was linked in the first post and updated on 6/23/2018, and I'm not using Arrange or the Randomiser. I'm also using a Steam version that was successfully patched/converted to the 1998 version for 7th Heaven. Everything else seems to be working properly - besides Yuffie's Clear Tranquil Limit Break, which says it Restores MP, but actually Restores HP. And the alternate descriptions for Potions/Ethers which indicate how much is healed in the field versus in battle seem to be missing now.

[MelonMelonHeart]

So I'm wondering, can you miss rank ups by not using them? Or do I just keep accruing sp and I can choose whenever I rank up? I'm at Cosmo Canyon, playing Arrange mode and so far the difficulty is good. Could be slightly harder at times, but it's just enough for some boss battles to keep me on my toes, for random encounters to be relatively swift and to put me at a place where I want to have the best equipment and good materia, etc. I am a little worried about the rank ups making the game too easy though. Will I end up too weak if I forego all the 7 rank ups I haven't used?

I'm having trouble finding out what Cait Sith's Innate ability is for 1.5. The game didn't verify it the way it has for other characters.

It's

\Innate Ability: MP Regen & Overcharge//
Cait Sith will slowly regenerate MP throughout a battle, and will regain MP
even faster while Defending. MP gained can go past his MaxMP amount.

If you go in the New Threat file you downloaded, under the documentation folder there should be a readme.txt file that gives you general information and you can find all of the info about the characters there.

[Sega Chief]

Hahha, I wish I had of known that, I didn't use any as I was purposely trying to keep him alive. Now that I think about it, it was right after I used bloodfang on red xiii to restore MP, that I learned it.

Something I've noticed over time, some attacks are more identifiable as counter-attacks than others. I've a plan to sort this though.

I'm having trouble finding out what Cait Sith's Innate ability is for 1.5. The game didn't verify it the way it has for other characters.

There should have been text appear during his recruitment. I'll double-check just in case.

As for the innate:
{YELLOW}\\{CAIT SITH} Innate Ability//{WHITE}
During battle{, }Cait Sith will slowly regenerate
MP but when Defending the rate will be greatly
increased and can exceed MaxMP.

Should mention that the regen can exceed MaxMP whether he's defending or not, phrasing is a bit poor.

[ChipNoir]

Yeah, the recruitement thing never came up for Cait Sith. And I had to run through that several times because the game (Either on its own or through mod glitching) kept consistently crashing after playing G-bike more than three times in a row per loaded game.

[diegofinalfantasynt]

Hello Sega Chief!

First of all I want to congratulate you for this incredible game.

Last year I finished version 1.4 on STEAM and a little over a month ago I started playing version 1.5

I really like this... but i have a problem and reading other people I see that I am not the only one with it.


I am currently in GONGAGA, just after beating RENO and RUDE. But I have noticed something that did not happen in version 1.4 and is that with the SP system the SOURCES are no longer giving +5, +10 or +15 to the STAT. Now they only give + 1, + 2, + 3.

At first I thought it was a change to the game and I re - read all the documents in the DOCUMENTATION section, but nowhere do you mention this or in the changelog.

For this reason I entered this forum to see if there was an answer and I was surprised that there was a new version 1.5 of June 23 in addition to a new patch.

What I have done so far:

1. I downloaded version 1.5. of June 23 and I installed it. I think the installation was correct. I could verify it because the SUICIDE L5 changed to QUARRY FUSE.
The QUARRY FUSE initially applied barrier, mbarrier and reflect on the enemies.
2. I downloaded the NT 1.5 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix [23rd June 2018] and applied it.
I checked that everything was fine because the QUARRY FUSE no longer applies the benefits to the enemies.
Up there do you think I'm fine? Have I done the right thing?

Unfortunately, the SP system problem persists and the SOURCES only apply + 1, + 2, + 3.
I do not know what to do and you do not indicate it in any changelog or version 1.5 of June 23 nor in the NT.15 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix (23rd june 2018).

For this reason I wanted to ask you please to tell me what to do.

What should I do?

Should I re-uninstall everything and reinstall it?

Do I still need to download a patch? Which? How will I check that it is correct without having to start the game again?


Please your help as I do not know how to fix the SOURCES problem.

[Sega Chief]

I added some patches and updated the installers to fix a few issues, one being menu navigation for rank up.

[ChipNoir]

Does the 7th Heaven launcher automatically update the mods, or is there something I have to do before my next start up?

Also, I'm a content creator and team member of TheLifestream.net. We run a monthly podcast. I was wondering if you'd like to guest on our podcast to talk about and promote your mod?

[apfrosty]

Ok, I'm almost giving up on learning chocobuckle lol, Fed all kinds of greens, looked for lvl 16 chocobos, lvl 20 etc, yet it will never use chocobuckle after I use
Quarry fuse, all chocobos will just deal a big physical  damage on all targets (including enemies) and quit battle

[Sega Chief]

Does the 7th Heaven launcher automatically update the mods, or is there something I have to do before my next start up?

Also, I'm a content creator and team member of TheLifestream.net. We run a monthly podcast. I was wondering if you'd like to guest on our podcast to talk about and promote your mod?

It doesn't, but I maintain an IRO on the first page that uses up to date files that can be imported into 7H for use.

As far as the podcast goes, yeah could do; what day/time are you planning to record on?

Ok, I'm almost giving up on learning chocobuckle lol, Fed all kinds of greens, looked for lvl 16 chocobos, lvl 20 etc, yet it will never use chocobuckle after I use
Quarry fuse, all chocobos will just deal a big physical  damage on all targets (including enemies) and quit battle

I checked the files and may owe you an apology; apparently it's not checking for the command index like I thought it was but instead looking for HP being at critical levels. I'll update the scene patch to fix this.

Edit: I updated the scene patch, Chocobuckle should now proc from any command so long as the bird has been fed Mimett Greens first.

[apfrosty]

Ooohh thanks! I was going crazy for this chocobuckle haha.
And I'm using the new patch with hotfix you just uploaded, Vincent's options on rank-up system still bugged, now I can choose an invisible option, cait's sith is okay now
Oh and let me finally thank you for this awesome mod, its just amazing.

edit : nevermind, I forgot to patch the other patch, its probably okay lol (I finally learned chocobuckle, thanks! <3)

[MelonMelonHeart]

Apologies if you saw my earlier questions and didn't have an answer (or just didn't feel like responding, which I respect), but how hard of a time will I have in Arrange mode if I skip the rank ups or only use them when I'm struggling? Or even, how much harder of a time will I have if I don't update and stick to this version where each power source only gives +1? Because I just checked and that's what happens in my version.

[ChipNoir]

We just finished our latest episode, but if you have a twitter, I can reach out to you through that, or by email maybe?

[Sylas420]

Edited: So I downloaded the updated 7H IRO from 6/30/2018 in hopes that the Rank Up issue was resolved, but I am still having the same problem with sources. I loaded my save right before the Mythril Mines and fought Reno and Elena again, and once I Ranked Up Cloud with +10 Str +5 Mag/Spr, the sources he got were:

3 Power
1 Guard
2 Magic
2 Spirit
1 Dexterity
1 Luck

Looks like diegofinalfantasynt posted about the same issue, and that this was not the case in v1.4. I figure the total number of each source that I am getting should be multiplied by 5. Am I doing something wrong? I passed all of the checks to make sure NT was installed correctly (like MP Trainee). I can list all of the mods I am using with 7th Heaven, but there's 21 of them, and I'm not sure how an incompatibility would be causing such a specific issue with the sources on New Threat v1.5.

At this point, I have had to stop playing the game because the Sources and Rank Up system are like the cornerstone of progress in this mod. If the reduced number of Sources from Rank Up is intentional in v1.5, then please let us know, so I can try to find v1.4 somewhere and use that instead.

**After reading back on some more posts, I saw that the number of sources was intentionally reduced in v1.5 (couldn't find that info in the Readme), and that they are suppose to increase the stats by 5 Points for each 1 Source used. I can confirm that for me, they are only increasing by +1 for each Source used, as noted in Cloud's Str increase from my first post. I guess that means that the 7H IRO version is not properly running the code to multiply the points from Sources by 5. Bummer...

Also, I really like the idea of Mr. Smile. It's a great use of the asset. Thank you!

***UPDATE***: So I figured out the actual issue. It was my fault (obvi).

Since I'm using 7H with The Reunion, I'm running FF7_BC.exe. I figured the IRO had everything it needed for the mod, but turns out you definitely need to replace whatever EXE you are using with the one packaged with Sega Chief's updated IRO.

**By simply replacing the original FF7_BC.exe with Sega Chief's, this resolved the issue. I am getting only 1, 2 or 3 Sources per Stat, but they are most definitely applying +5 per Source now. No more Rank Up Issues!!!

Also, there's a lot of changes with the new EXE file. The Materia penalties are totally different. The Vitality/Intellect penalty in particular is harsh as hell, literally bringing some toons to 0 points for both Stats. At first I was like, "Dood WTF???" but I noticed all my toons' base HP was higher, and with the Rank Up working properly now, I imagine I'll be able to close the penalty gap soon. It's kind of nice that defeating enemies is more meaningful now, and not just a grind chore to get XP/AP.

Again, Nice Work on the mod so far, and sorry for the confusion. It should maybe be noted more on the first post that when using 7H, you absolutely must replace the EXE file (including FF7_BC.exe) with your version in order for all of the changes to be properly relayed. I figured it was only FF7.exe file that mattered.
^{(and sorry for the long post)}

[diegofinalfantasynt]

I would like to delete this post given that Sega has already replied, but I do not know how

Hello Sega Chief!

First of all I want to congratulate you for this incredible game.

Last year I finished version 1.4 on STEAM and a little over a month ago I started playing version 1.5

I really like this... but i have a problem and reading other people I see that I am not the only one with it.


I am currently in GONGAGA, just after beating RENO and RUDE. But I have noticed something that did not happen in version 1.4 and is that with the SP system the SOURCES are no longer giving +5, +10 or +15 to the STAT. Now they only give + 1, + 2, + 3.

At first I thought it was a change to the game and I re - read all the documents in the DOCUMENTATION section, but nowhere do you mention this or in the changelog.

For this reason I entered this forum to see if there was an answer and I was surprised that there was a new version 1.5 of June 23 in addition to a new patch.

What I have done so far:

1. I downloaded version 1.5. of June 23 and I installed it. I think the installation was correct. I could verify it because the SUICIDE L5 changed to QUARRY FUSE.
The QUARRY FUSE initially applied barrier, mbarrier and reflect on the enemies.
2. I downloaded the NT 1.5 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix [23rd June 2018] and applied it.
I checked that everything was fine because the QUARRY FUSE no longer applies the benefits to the enemies.
Up there do you think I'm fine? Have I done the right thing?

Unfortunately, the SP system problem persists and the SOURCES only apply + 1, + 2, + 3.
I do not know what to do and you do not indicate it in any changelog or version 1.5 of June 23 nor in the NT.15 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix (23rd june 2018).

For this reason I wanted to ask you please to tell me what to do.

What should I do?

Should I re-uninstall everything and reinstall it?

Do I still need to download a patch? Which? How will I check that it is correct without having to start the game again?


Please your help as I do not know how to fix the SOURCES problem.

[Sega Chief]

I think I've missed some posts here:

Hello Sega Chief!

First of all I want to congratulate you for this incredible game.

Last year I finished version 1.4 on STEAM and a little over a month ago I started playing version 1.5

I really like this... but i have a problem and reading other people I see that I am not the only one with it.


I am currently in GONGAGA, just after beating RENO and RUDE. But I have noticed something that did not happen in version 1.4 and is that with the SP system the SOURCES are no longer giving +5, +10 or +15 to the STAT. Now they only give + 1, + 2, + 3.

At first I thought it was a change to the game and I re - read all the documents in the DOCUMENTATION section, but nowhere do you mention this or in the changelog.

For this reason I entered this forum to see if there was an answer and I was surprised that there was a new version 1.5 of June 23 in addition to a new patch.

What I have done so far:

1. I downloaded version 1.5. of June 23 and I installed it. I think the installation was correct. I could verify it because the SUICIDE L5 changed to QUARRY FUSE.
The QUARRY FUSE initially applied barrier, mbarrier and reflect on the enemies.
2. I downloaded the NT 1.5 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix [23rd June 2018] and applied it.
I checked that everything was fine because the QUARRY FUSE no longer applies the benefits to the enemies.
Up there do you think I'm fine? Have I done the right thing?

Unfortunately, the SP system problem persists and the SOURCES only apply + 1, + 2, + 3.
I do not know what to do and you do not indicate it in any changelog or version 1.5 of June 23 nor in the NT.15 Enemy / Kernel Hotfix (23rd june 2018).

For this reason I wanted to ask you please to tell me what to do.

What should I do?

Should I re-uninstall everything and reinstall it?

Do I still need to download a patch? Which? How will I check that it is correct without having to start the game again?


Please your help as I do not know how to fix the SOURCES problem.

The newest versions use executable modifications now, one of which was to set sources to give +5 per use rather than +1 (to reduce button mashing). The latest version of the main installer should have a folder inside called Emergency EXE files, take the one for your version (likely ff7_en if it's steam) and replace your current .EXE with it. Sometimes the installer isn't able to patch the .exe for some reason.

To confirm that .exe is patched, source use should give +5 to stat. You don't need to start the game again.

Hey
Can anyone write down where can I find those enemy skills (or how to get them)? Coz i think description of the newest version is messed up or im just noob and cant find out, how to trigger enemy

Anyway, those enemy skills are mistery for me:
-Trine
-Magnitude8
-Deathcharge

Thx

Trine should be on Keeper as of the latest patch, or on Thundercracker enemy up on Mt. Nibel's first screen (manipulate may be needed).

Magnitude8 was changed in latest version to Time Flare, and should be available from Dragon enemies (like Nibel Dragon, Gaea Dragon, Crater Dragon etc.) Try using a Limit Break on them to activate it as a counter-attack.

Deathcharge is on a new enemy called Tsarcat in North Crater; Manipulate one to get it (you will need to be equipped with a Hypnocrown to succeed due to a level quirk).

Hey Sega Chief, thanks for the hard work on the mod. I've been enjoying it so far, but I think I may have run into an issue, or I'm not understanding something properly.

I'm level 21 and just unlocked the Rank Up system and it seems like I am not getting the proper amount of Sources. It's like I am only getting 1 Source for every 5 Points that I should increase; so if I choose something that gives +10 to Str/Vit along with the basic +5 to all stats, I'll end up with 3 Power and 3 Guard (+10 From Upgrade => 2 Source, +5 All Stats => 1 Source), then 1 of each other source... So instead of Cloud going from 37 Str to 52 Str, he went to 40 Str . I got the same results for ranking up all other chars - only getting 1 Source for every 5 Points I was suppose to increase.

I'm new to this mod, so maybe this is intentional, but if I can only Rank Up 8 times then Cloud would gain a Maximum of 24 Str throughout the course of the game, if I chose to give him a +10 Str Upgrade each time. This doesn't seem right, and now I'm hesitant to play anymore if the Rank Up system is doing this. I'll never be powerful enough if this is the case.

I'm using the v1.5 that was linked in the first post and updated on 6/23/2018, and I'm not using Arrange or the Randomiser. I'm also using a Steam version that was successfully patched/converted to the 1998 version for 7th Heaven. Everything else seems to be working properly - besides Yuffie's Clear Tranquil Limit Break, which says it Restores MP, but actually Restores HP. And the alternate descriptions for Potions/Ethers which indicate how much is healed in the field versus in battle seem to be missing now.

The .exe hasn't been patched; the Installer needs to be pointed at the FF7 folder now rather than the Data folder (sorry if the installer itself states Data folder; I'd better check the text). If the .exe isn't patching, then look inside the main installer folder and there should be another folder inside called emergency exe files; drop the one your game uses into your FF7 folder and overwrite it (should be FF7.exe if you converted the game and are not using Steam Launcher for it).

So I'm wondering, can you miss rank ups by not using them? Or do I just keep accruing sp and I can choose whenever I rank up? I'm at Cosmo Canyon, playing Arrange mode and so far the difficulty is good. Could be slightly harder at times, but it's just enough for some boss battles to keep me on my toes, for random encounters to be relatively swift and to put me at a place where I want to have the best equipment and good materia, etc. I am a little worried about the rank ups making the game too easy though. Will I end up too weak if I forego all the 7 rank ups I haven't used?


It's

\Innate Ability: MP Regen & Overcharge//
Cait Sith will slowly regenerate MP throughout a battle, and will regain MP
even faster while Defending. MP gained can go past his MaxMP amount.

If you go in the New Threat file you downloaded, under the documentation folder there should be a readme.txt file that gives you general information and you can find all of the info about the characters there.

You can't miss out on Rank Ups; you can waste SP though if it reaches 255 so it's best to use them as soon as you get to 200. If you decide to hold off then it doesn't matter, you can still get all 8 ranks out by gathering SP from fighting enemies (late game enemies give a lot more than early ones).