Author Topic: .  (Read 166396 times)

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #350 on: 2015-08-26 16:55:23 »
Secondly, they've obviously already secluded themselves from fans, because they're already flirting with ideas that both the majority of western and Japanese fans alike, vocally object to all over the internet.

Yup.  Years before this was even announced I predicted this would be the outcome.  It didn't really take the Oracle.  I hoped it wouldn't.  They have no intention of making FF7r faithful to the original, because they consider FF7 too archaic and want to have mass appeal.  They should just call the remake "FF7: Alienation".  I am still really interested in which parts I will find an improvement and which they will completely fuck up.  ;D
« Last Edit: 2015-08-26 19:09:10 by DLPB »

Fischkopf

  • *
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #351 on: 2015-08-26 19:07:04 »
To illustrate - While in the original characters just stood around and talked to each other rather statically with the camera locked in one position, that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Scenes will be designed to be more cinematic, with angles changing, panning, etc.
and more movement from the characters etc. for dramatic effect.
In that kind of cinematography the old-school set-up and use of the score won't work very well. It will feel very unnatural.

For that reason they're probably going to have to create a lot of rearrangements of the original themes to fit with the new cinematography - meaning they'll probably redo the entire soundtrack.

Just saying.

I can see what you mean but I'm not sure if the game would profit from such drastic changes...

I'm not sure if I even want every scene involving dialog to be more cinematic, because there is so much dialog in the original game, they would have to cut out a LOT of stuff for budget reasons alone, which again would mean less interactivity in the game. Speaking of which, I don't like the cheesy soap opera-standard acting they have going on with the cutscenes in their latest games anyway...

In my opinion they need go a little more back to the basics in that regard. In the original ending there isn't any talking in the cutscenes (except the ending). They were used merely for dramatic purposes to support climaxes in the story. They provided a nice contrast to the more calm dialog heavy parts of the game.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-26 19:09:37 by Fischkopf »

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #352 on: 2015-08-27 00:53:11 »
@hian Gematsu is not some random bs journalist it's one of the most popular, well known and respected Japanese game website's out there and many sites like Neogaf and many other game sites gets their Japanese games info from there most of the time first. So dunno why your acting like you know better than them

Because in this case I do, as demonstrated by translation - which if you spoke the language you'd be able to make an educated opinion on, but if you don't, obviously can't.
I am not "acting" like I know better, (as a person of higher education dealing primarily with the Japanese language, who speaks, read/writes the language, and lives in the country) I am making a correction on the framing of the story due to a fault in the translation. These people are no more an authority on this, than am I.

In this case, the translation is shoddy (perhaps it was rushed) - end of story. Point in case, the IGN "re-article" on this piece features a cleaned up translation that is much closer to mine, than to the original one.

I even provided the actually quotes broken down, with alternatives for the words and inflections that are ambiguous. If you still think the original translation isn't bad or misleading, I can break the entire thing down to you word by word, particle by particle, verb-ending by verb-ending, and show you exactly where it gets things wrong. Would that satisfy you?


I can see what you mean but I'm not sure if the game would profit from such drastic changes...

Depends on what you mean by "benefit".
It benefits the cinematic experience of the game for people who're looking for that kind of stuff, but it ties together with what you say next, and leads to -

I'm not sure if I even want every scene involving dialog to be more cinematic, because there is so much dialog in the original game, they would have to cut out a LOT of stuff for budget reasons alone, which again would mean less interactivity in the game. Speaking of which, I don't like the cheesy soap opera-standard acting they have going on with the cutscenes in their latest games anyway...

- the fact that they'll probably cut a lot of story content and dialogue to stream-line the scenes.

People standing around spouting tons of dialogue and exposition is not good movie-making. Games these days approach story-telling much more like the movies, than what games used to do.

They'll probably rewrite the entire script, and stream-line all the major story events to enable a more "exciting" telling of the story.

In my opinion they need go a little more back to the basics in that regard. In the original ending there isn't any talking in the cutscenes (except the ending). They were used merely for dramatic purposes to support climaxes in the story. They provided a nice contrast to the more calm dialog heavy parts of the game.

Well to be fair, this game might not even feature much in terms of cut-scenes, because the graphic and animations will be good enough to support these dramatic scenes without the use of FMVs. If anything, FMVs in games were often used to portray what in-game engines couldn't at the times and now we don't have that problem anymore, so to use FMVs for one type of events, and in-game graphics for others make very little sense most of the time, except when you just really want to amp up the graphical fidelity of a scene for the pure wow-factor.

I am just afraid that in the attempt at making the game more cinematic and interesting to watch, the costs of that will hurt the amount of content of the game.

I've always been of the opinion that if a game dev team can pick between having really good graphics or lowering graphical fidelity in order to put more power into game-play mechanics, smooth frame-rates, more awesome physics in the world, and more moving objects on the screen, then they should definitely do that.
Imagine how huge of a world (perhaps the entire thing destroyable like a map in "Worms") with how many moving interactive parts, and physical wonders you could make in a PS4 game if you decided to be satisfied with PS2 level graphics for a game.

Take FF12. If you had that graphical baseline, you could spend so much more processing power in really creative dynamic lighting and shadows, magic effects, put more characters, buildings and things on screen at the same time, increase draw-distances and even make an entire expansive version of the FF7 world in 1:1 scale, fill it with content and probably still cram it all into one blue-ray, and have it run without any major snags.
And the sad fact is that FF12 is still a beautiful game, even if a new generation of retrograde Call of Duty fans don't understand that, because they're incapable of enjoying graphics for its artistry, only for how well it mimics the real world.

Graphic-whoring is literally the major obstructing force for good game development. It's starting to lampoon the entire industry at this point, by leading to production costs so huge that they cannot possibly be covered without major mainstream success, which creates the necessity for dirty and dishonest marketing campaigns, paid DLC and micro-transactions, and non-challenging, bland and unoriginal game-play mechanics.

I didn't want an FF7 remake to fall victim to that - but because of Nomura stylistic choices, and his obsession with making the graphics (of an anime styled game...) more realistic, that's probably what's going to happen.

As I said before - the new style will cost SE their shirt if they don't manage to sell it to the mainstream western market. That means they're going to have to look to games like Fallout, GTA5, The Last of Us etc. when making design choices about this game - "how can we capture that market with this game?".

Fischkopf

  • *
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #353 on: 2015-08-27 15:19:00 »
I didn't want an FF7 remake to fall victim to that - but because of Nomura stylistic choices, and his obsession with making the graphics (of an anime styled game...) more realistic, that's probably what's going to happen.

This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:


Gay Emo smoothly seamless skin Cloud


Badass Anime Cloud

Why they simply can't just adapt the style of the original artworks and apply that to 3D models is beyond me...

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #354 on: 2015-08-27 15:52:29 »
Yeah, it's utterly pathetic.  How can the original designers NOT see the issue there?

gjoerulv

  • *
  • Posts: 1225
  • me
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #355 on: 2015-08-27 20:09:15 »
C'mon, it's obvious. They cater to the trends.

Fischkopf

  • *
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #356 on: 2015-08-27 23:38:09 »
C'mon, it's obvious. They cater to the trends.

But that's not the reason why FF VII has gotten so popular in the first place.

If they have to make it all trendy and hip I don't really mind, except for the fact that they would have wasted a great opportunity to make the true-to-the-original remake fans have been waiting (and asking) for. Wasn't that the main reason why they even considered a remake in the first place?? Why don't they just make the game for the fans then...

Making everything 'hip' and 'cinematic' and adapting 'modern game standards' wouldn't ruin the original for me personally, just as Advent Children doesn't ruin FF VII for me. I haven't watched it to this day, neither do I care about it in the slightest. I can just play the original version with lot's of mods installed, and it's as awesome as ever.

BUT it would for sure get ripped apart by critics and fans alike, which as we know can have huge implications on the financial success of a game. I guess in the end the financial success and critical reception of FFXV will decide, whether they keep that cinematic approach, the fagotty emo characters, sh1tty acting, 'modern' gameplay idiosyncrasies, etc. or if they go a little more back to their roots...
« Last Edit: 2015-08-27 23:46:09 by Fischkopf »

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #357 on: 2015-08-27 23:44:45 »
I'll guarantee you that even if the game is an abomination it will get 9 or 10 from most big review companies.  It's the fanbase that will render the ultimate judgement.

Fischkopf

  • *
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #358 on: 2015-08-27 23:46:53 »
I'll guarantee you that even if the game is an abomination it will get 9 or 10 from most big review companies.  It's the fanbase that will render the ultimate judgement.

If that's the case Square Enix can kiss my butt forever...

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #359 on: 2015-08-28 00:31:29 »
This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:

I just had a rather large debate over at thelifestream forums about the art-style of the remake and the compilation titles like Advent Children -

And most of them were of the opinion that AC and the compilation is very true to the original art-style *facepalm*

Seriously? I mean - anyone not blind and artistically speaking completely ignorant can see the obvious difference between the original anime-styled FF7 style and the semi-realistic style in the compilation and the remake. I mean, wtf.

Apart from concerns for mainstream appeal, it's because people like this exist, and because of their numbers, that we'll never get a true remake.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #360 on: 2015-08-28 00:38:37 »
Oh, don't bother having a "debate" there...  that's a big mistake.  Haha.  That forum is literally filled with trolls and weirdos.  Their favourite past-time seems to be fawning over anything "canon" and talking as if the characters are real people.
Lifestream forum was the first place that really opened my eyes to the fact that I like FF7 for vastly different reasons than a lot of other people do.

Seriously, I can't stress enough how futile it is to debate there or expect some decency.  They are mostly incapable of reasoning. I've just had another look at the forum and saw this (latest post):

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16989&page=3

That's the mentality we are talking about here.  And, as you rightly point out, those people are the kind of gormless little brain-deads that create this problem, because they will buy anything, and praise ANYTHING, as long as it has graphics and a big brand name.

Anybody who wants to see why I gave in with 99% of forums, tune in (Hian's putting up a good fight):

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17049&page=44
« Last Edit: 2015-08-28 01:14:07 by DLPB »

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #361 on: 2015-08-28 02:52:12 »
It's going alright actually. It just took a very long time to get through, which didn't surprise me. In my experience people tend to know which of their interests are guilty pleasures of otherwise low-quality material and what isn't, however, they don't like to think about it, and they're not confident in their choices etc. so they get really defensive when people aim a criticism at the stuff they enjoy that they know is actually applicable.

Here's the thing - I watch Dragon Ball. I like Dragon Ball. However, Dragon Ball is generally poorly written, and most of the time it's poorly animated. I don't care though, because I just like it. I am not ashamed of that, nor do I need to justify to other people.
The compilation creates continuity issues with the original, it's incongruent with the art-style of the original,  and it's often poorly written.
Those are just facts. People can still love. I don't mind, and to be fair, I enjoyed my first viewing of AC too, and I enjoyed playing CC for what it was.

The fact that people have such a strong reaction to having any of the above pointed out, to me, just demonstrates the insecurity issues these people suffer with. They can't be comfortable liking low-brow or low-quality art, and they feel that in a way, criticism of that art is a criticism of their taste and by extension, their person.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #362 on: 2015-08-28 02:58:01 »
I just see it as rampant fanboyism to be honest.  They don't want to believe, or admit, or even see that FF has gone down the tubes, and they will buy anything Square-enix churns out because of the name.  The worst bit is, it's generally that type of person who is most vocal - So i continually see "10/10" reviews for games that do not come close.

At least there appears to be one or two there willing to reason; that's better than it used to be.

In any case, it really shouldn't need pointing out that the art style of the original game is completely different to AC.  That's not an opinion; it's a fact.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-28 03:06:51 by DLPB »

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #363 on: 2015-08-28 05:12:28 »
lol, I broke the discussion apparently -

Quote from: Theozilla;656938
As for the OG graphics you can't honestly call those anime-esque, they were super blocky popeye-esqu models. And the pre-rendered backgrounds weren't cartoony either, they were very realistic looking and pretty to look at (which part of why the OG is still very fun to play even today). Like if FFVII had come out a few years later the in-game character models would have likely resembled those from FFVIII which the current graphical style is just a natural evolution off with the increase in technology.







*slow clap*

Yeah, nothing anime about it all. I'm sure that Nomura and the rest of the team were completely imagining this as abstractions for photo-realism.
Seriously...

StickySock

  • *
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #364 on: 2015-08-28 06:16:59 »
This is exactly the reason why I hate the way the characters look in FF XV. I mean look at this:

Gay Emo smoothly seamless skin Cloud
Saying stuff like that is inflammatory and does not help get your point across, and only makes people not respect your opinions.

Besides, it can easily be applied to the depiction of Cloud you seem to like. Anime is considered "gay" (in the stupid/weird/lame sense) to a lot of people in America who are not into it, and his skin is "smoothly seamless" in that depiction as well. If his head was tilted down and his stance was a little more relaxed, you could easily label it as "emo" as well.

@hian: I read through your agruments on the lifestream and found the lack of acknowledgement of the differences in artistic styles to be frustrating. Two artists can definitely depict the same object in two totally different styles, while the object remains recognizable in both.

I also appreciated your acknowledgment of Catherine's art style (which is being used in Persona 5, even though the engine is not the same). I love that 3d anime look. It's clean, colorful, and emphasizes everything it needs to in order to set the mood or tone.

On top of that, I wish more developers would find ways to implement different art styles if for no other reason but to reduce costs. Games could have a lot more resources going into the story and gameplay if there wasn't so much resources invested into trying to make everything extremely detailed and "realistic". Ni No Kuni, Catherine, and the upcoming Dragon Quest 11 are all gorgeous games, even if they are not trying to be realistic. Not only that but if everyone strives for "realism" there won't be any variety in modern games.

Nier (a game I love btw) is horribly ugly because it tries to be "realistic" and obviously did not have the budget for it. Star Ocean is probably the worst offender in my opinion (SO4 and seems to be the same with SO5). Star Ocean's characters look more like dolls because of their weirdly high detailed textures, lighting, and environments, while retaining the physical anatomy of anime characters. It actually creeps me out to some extent when I view screenshots of the games.

FFXV, in my opinion, does not look bad or out of place with its art style. I don't think its bad, and since it was conceived to look that way from the opening trailer, it is faithful to creator's intentions, which I think is important.

With FF7 Advent Children on the other hand, I can understand hian's points about the art style not being true to the original. If I was to have my way, I would like the game to have an art style similar to P5 or Catherine, and with Cloud looking similar to his KH1 appearance (minus his theft of Vincent's cape, gauntlet, and wing). I honestly think an art-style similar to Devil May Cry 4 might actually work even better, as it strikes a great balance between anime and gritty detail.

I don't like that all of SE's games are shaping to have the same art style. 6 looked vastly different than 7 which looked different than 8 which looked different than 9 which looked different than 10, which looked different than 12, which looked different than 13. Now, FF7AC, 13, 15, and 7's remake all have similar artstyles, and it is logical to assume future games will as well (if Agni's Philosophy demos are anything to go by). I loved that each game felt like a different world, and having a similar art style that is becoming more and more "realistic" is taking away from that.

An interesting thing to note also is that, while each of those games listed above had different art styles, FF8-FF13 (with possibly the exclusion of 9) had a similar art style in their FMV sequences. It's almost as if SE is obsessed with making the game and CG indistinguishable, and they probably view the new art styles as superior simply because of the greater technology needed to render it. FFXV's Dawn trailer was showing off that cutscenes rendered in game are very comparable to that of SE's FMVs, especially ones from older games. I remember my friends and I would dream and wonder "what if the entire game looked as good as that cutscene" and that seems to be SE's goal they are trying to achieve.

However, despite all of that, I think that the story and tone of the game is more important than the art style, which I think can be preserved regardless of the art style. Metal Gear Solid 4 is a very realistic looking game, and yet was also very strange and charming. From playing that game I know I wouldn't hold too much of a grudge against SE for having the art style they seem to be striving for with the remake of 7, as long as the story elements (even the really weird and charming ones) remain the same. I don't care if its absurd with the art style, I don't care if its not realistic, those are the things I NEED to have or I simply won't enjoy the game.


Kefka

  • *
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #365 on: 2015-08-28 07:11:17 »
Absolutely agree with you guys, I simply loved the anime-style of the original. I've always imagined that in a remake, the field models of the characters would look just like this:









Just the characters from the original's FMVs, but only polished in HD (and with no further changes). Sadly, that isn't going to happen. That's especially irritating when considering that Nomura himself designed the characters of the original in the first place! By choosing a vastly different graphics style now, he is more or less betraying his own work. The realistic approach just doesn't seem to "fit" with the world of FF7, at least not for me.


Kaldarasha

  • *
  • Posts: 2449
  • Prince of Model Editing
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #366 on: 2015-08-28 07:44:24 »
Well the Character do need a redesign. But I wouldn't jump into the realistic direction.
Personally I would have loved it, if they had developed a new Gears engine for this age for all their PSX games. They would keep this way the original experience and have a potent engine to expand the game. Also they don't have the problem to fail on too high expectation of the fans (currently it seems that they try to lower them with crazy ideas). If they would have putt the game to FF9's standard (story and gamplay wise) they could have made the game timeless.

However as long they don't pull in any stupid interface decisions (FF12 has this blue ring which seems to pipi on the enemies, DQIX has a this strange blue arrow when a characters attack an enemy and FF7 CC says all the time 'Activate Combat Mode') which always reminds you that you play a game and destroys this way the immersion of the game, I think we could get a good FF7 remake which, however, isn't the game we all want.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #367 on: 2015-08-28 13:59:59 »
Also, just what planet is that guy on?  Cait Sith as a robot cat is already pretty stupid.. but to say the big white mog doesn't make it look even more ridiculous is so inaccurate I wonder how he can believe that?

At least he/she is conceding that Cait is unrealistic.  I've actually had people from there telling me how "It's just a game" "It's a fiction, so it doesn't matter" and also that he's just as realistic as any other character.  Come on.

I disagree with you on Holy, though, Hian.  The original game says that humanity will be judged.  Red XIII is not a human.  The implication at the end of FF7 is either that Midgar is abandoned or that humanity has been taken out.  It's left up to our imagination :)
« Last Edit: 2015-08-28 17:37:25 by DLPB »

Fischkopf

  • *
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #368 on: 2015-08-28 15:31:06 »
Absolutely agree with you guys, I simply loved the anime-style of the original. I've always imagined that in a remake, the field models of the characters would look just like this:


Just the characters from the original's FMVs, but only polished in HD (and with no further changes). Sadly, that isn't going to happen. That's especially irritating when considering that Nomura himself designed the characters of the original in the first place! By choosing a vastly different graphics style now, he is more or less betraying his own work. The realistic approach just doesn't seem to "fit" with the world of FF7, at least not for me.
A agree, but I wouldn't go as far as directly adapting those models since they, although they are CG models which were for the time quite detailed, still are not up to modern quality 3D standards (I'm obviously not talking about the art style) as you can see with Sephiroths neck, visible polygons everywhere which will be even more noticable in HD, visible bone joints, overall lack of detail, but maybe that's what you meant by polishing them in HD.

If they used those models (how they appeared in the ending sequence) as a basis, and then got them to look closer to the original character concept art maybe using a cel-shaded approach, THAT would be the perfect art style for me.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #369 on: 2015-08-28 17:50:08 »
I don't think anything needed changing style wise.  I would have been happy with 2d pre-rendered from 3d complete update with new upgraded models (like we do here at Qhimm, but they'd do it better).  I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't be the only one who is gonna be disappointed when this remake, supposedly aimed at the long time fans, turns out to be aimed at a completely different audience and sticks two fingers up at me for being a "dinosaur".

Quote from: Theozilla
I on the other hand think that the anime-esqueness/cartoonyness of the in-game battle models was mostly a result of the limited technology at the time.

Can someone please explain to this person that FF8 and 9 are totally different in style to FF7, AND TO EACH OTHER; they all had the SAME limitations.  The FMV are also not limited the same way and were STILL stylistically different.  What is not to get here?  Why are people over there so separated from reality?  It's like some kind of crazy bubble.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-30 16:27:43 by DLPB »

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #370 on: 2015-08-31 07:14:17 »
I don't think anything needed changing style wise.  I would have been happy with 2d pre-rendered from 3d complete update with new upgraded models (like we do here at Qhimm, but they'd do it better).  I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't be the only one who is gonna be disappointed when this remake, supposedly aimed at the long time fans, turns out to be aimed at a completely different audience and sticks two fingers up at me for being a "dinosaur".

I'm not sure I'd been completely happy with the 3D models on a 2D pre-rendered set-up, when the new systems a remake would run on now have the capability of delivering a complete 3D experience with the same style as the original if they just took the time and effort.
I wouldn't be dissatisfied necessarily, as it would still be better than the original - but I'd consider it a bit on the lazy side, and a missed opportunity to do something more with the game.

Can someone please explain to this person that FF8 and 9 are totally different in style to FF7, AND TO EACH OTHER; they all had the SAME limitations.  The FMV are also not limited the same way and were STILL stylistically different.  What is not to get here?  Why are people over there so separated from reality?  It's like some kind of crazy bubble.

This is not entirely true. FF7 came out so early in the PSX life-cycle that it's naturally to assume that the devs would have had less experience developing for it, and therefore be much worse off when it comes to optimalizing the structure of the game for the system.
It's probably the case that their lack of experience made it difficult or impossible for them to deliver the same quality as we see in later Squaresoft titles.

However, this argument doesn't really work for the style of the game for several reasons -

- Resident Evil one was a game with pre-rendered backgrounds, realistically styled models and voice-acting, released an entire year before FF7. If they could do this, Squaresoft certainly could, and since Squaresoft ended up doing just this with FF8, it's more reasonable to assume that SS did a conscious style to make FF7 in a specific style for artistic reasons. The lack of things like the sound of footsteps, higher polygon-count models with more detailed design, and higher quality music are some things that probably didn't make it because it was their first-time PSX project.
However, to presume that they would have ditched the anime style if they just had more experience is silly. It's more reasonable to assume the models would instead look, graphically speaking, like what you see in the final encounter of the game.

- The FF7 battle models are clearly made to mimic Nomura's art-work. While the chibi-models might have been made to clear up system power, the chibi models are clearly abstractions for how the characters are suppose to look given the look of the battle-models.

- To pretend as if the entire style of FF7 was due to limitations opposed on the devs, when the devs clearly could have opted for a different visual style in either case, is just absurd. There is nothing inherent to the graphical set-up (low polygon count and blocky, smaller field models) that rules out a more realistic character design (smaller eyes, less gravity defying hair, more subdued colors).
The FF6 characters, despite the even bigger graphical limitations of the SNES, based on the character portraits, clearly aimed for a more realistic style. Their faces are drawn with normal proportions.

My personal theory is that they went with the chibi figures as a stylistic homage to earlier titles in order to make older fans feel more at home with the game. After all, every game before it had featured chibi characters.

I disagree with you on Holy, though, Hian.  The original game says that humanity will be judged.  Red XIII is not a human.  The implication at the end of FF7 is either that Midgar is abandoned or that humanity has been taken out.  It's left up to our imagination :)

Where does it say that though? I thought that information was just presented as conjecture on Bugenhagen's part - A maybe.

My point was primarily that it would be rather bad writing if humanity had been wiped out.
If Holy can distinguish between human's and Nanaki's breed, then it begs the question what standard Holy judges by.
If it judges by what the species as a whole is doing to the planet at the moment, then that completely breaks with the concept just judgement.
Why would humans in Cosmo Canyon living in peace and harmony with nature be killed off together with the people of Midgar?
If it judges on princple - that is to say what a species is capable of doing to the planet - then I would suppose that any conscious creature with potential for destructive behavior (Nanaki included) would get killed off.

But it's pointless to focus on that - I think it's pretty clear for various reasons that Holy doesn't kill off anyone.

1.) Holy wasn't able to even stop meteor by itself. Life-stream stopped meteor. I find it extremely unlikely that Holy, which by any standard, would fizzle out trying to stop the meteor by itself, would somehow have enough energy left in it after having stopped meteor with the help of life-stream, to then start flowing across the entirety of the world to kill of all the humans.

2.) Holy was clearly local. The spell erupted out of North Crater, headed straight for Midgar, and and hardly covered the ground the meteor was supposed to hit. It didn't cover the world like life-stream did. If people were making the argument that the world sucked up all the life of the living things to add to the power of the life-stream for the sake of stopping the meteor, that's something I could be on board with, but Holy? Nah.

3.) Holy breaks out of North Crater, passes directly by Cloud and Co in Highwind, and while it nearly tears Highwind apart, it doesn't actually kill them, which I would suppose it would do if it was also directed to kill humans.

4.) The fact that life-stream breaks out to save the world, and by extension, humanity, seems to imply forgiveness, which would be consistent with the themes of the game in total.

I really don't think FF7 left this ambiguous.
I only think it felt that way to a lot of young and impressionable gamers who weren't used to open endings, nor had enough experience to pick up on narrative clues like the one above that are common in literature and movies etc. but up until that point (FF7) had not really been normal or popular in video-games.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #371 on: 2015-08-31 10:59:51 »
Bugenhagen explains it to Nanaki.  He explains that when Holy arrives, it will attack anything that it deems an enemy to the planet, including humans.  He wonders how humans will be judged.  You can argue that Holy was never allowed to get started, or you coiuld argue that it was (and that it ended the human race).  The ending is still open to interpretation.  I always saw the ending in terms of Mako being abandoned, tbh.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-31 11:02:33 by DLPB »

hian

  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #372 on: 2015-08-31 14:04:03 »
Bugenhagen explains it to Nanaki.  He explains that when Holy arrives, it will attack anything that it deems an enemy to the planet, including humans.  He wonders how humans will be judged.  You can argue that Holy was never allowed to get started, or you coiuld argue that it was (and that it ended the human race).  The ending is still open to interpretation.  I always saw the ending in terms of Mako being abandoned, tbh.

Explicitly, Holy was started and failed though - Holy was held back in North Crater, and released once Sephiroth was defeated. The plot and the last FMV both states and shows this pretty clearly.
Holy was, a wholly (stupid pun is stupid) underwhelming spell. It clearly couldn't even stop meteor, and it shows in the last cut-scene. There is nothing to suggest that there was any more to Holy than what is shown in the last FMV, so I don't think it's good argument.

Could the case be made? Maybe. I still don't think we're actually supposed to be thinking along those lines when you consider all the plot points I just mentioned.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #373 on: 2015-08-31 20:41:42 »
I wouldn't use the FMV as a an argument, really... the FMV really was limited by budget and design.  Even the way Meteor falls is stupid since it was supposed to crash land (that's what Aerith says it will do, and what a meteor DOES do), not hover there like an idiot creating whirlwinds over a major city, like it has some sort of brain.  The FMV dialogue states that Holy was too late to stop Meteor, but you can see when the Lifestream helps, Holy is still there attacking it.

The ending is up for interpretation either way imho.  The main part of the game is Bugenhagen saying that Holy will make all threats disappear, including humans if need be.  I just think the writers didn't really do enough with the ending to tie it up in a more logical fashion.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-31 20:46:19 by DLPB »

luksy

  • *
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #374 on: 2015-09-01 08:28:34 »
There really is a paucity of info on Holy, grepping the main text all we can say is:

white1:
  • Holy is a last resort for defending the Planet.
  • Holy must be activated using the White Materia and by praying to the Planet.
  • Holy destroys all that the Planet considers evil.
  • Holy glows when activated.
(The Ancients, via Bugenhagen)

fship_25:
  • Sephiroth must be defeated in order to release Holy (Cloud)

lastmap:
  • One way or another, Holy has been activated, perhaps by Aerith (Cloud), perhaps by collective prayer (Barret).

las4_0
  • It's up to the Planet to decide what to do with Holy (Cloud)

Ending:
  • The Planet unleashes Holy
  • If they don't get out of the Crater they're toast (Red)
  • The Highwind is damaged by Holy as it tries to escape
  • Midgar is heavily damaged if not destroyed by Meteor
  • Holy arrives too late, Meteor is too close (Red)
  • Holy is backfiring, putting the entire planet at risk (Red)
  • Lifestream comes to save the day and defeats Meteor *with* Holy
  • Fade to white
  • Fast forward and we can see Midgar was never rebuilt

Conclusions:

It's hard to tell from the ending, but I get the impression that the Highwind "surfs" on top of Holy and avoids taking the full brunt. Red at least seems to think that being in the crater when Holy goes off means death.

Holy should have been enough, but it came too late. The video doesn't explain why Holy being too late matters, or why it would backfire and threaten the Planet, but I suppose we have to trust what Red says. The implication from Red is that Meteor was only a threat to Midgar until Holy showed up.

I can't wrap my head around this last part to be honest, how exactly is Holy backfiring? Why's the timing so important? So many questions...