[WIP] Battle-scene Enhancement

[Kudistos Megistos]

The original battlefield felt like you were fighting inside of the battle arena... but outside.

There are advantages to that. Making the fields too open makes the battle feel desolate, as I said earlier; I imagine that this is a bad thing in most people's eyes. It also highlights the player's lack of freedom; having so much open space draws one's attention to the fact that there is no freedom of movement, whereas a closed space does not do this.

You may notice that there are very few outside battles without tall and noticeable mountains or hills in the background in any of the FF games from 7 onwards. In fact, there are very few wide open spaces in video games generally. This is no coincidence; having such open spaces in a limiting medium such as a video game is bad design (and also makes it look like the developers are lazy).

Furthermore, the general consensus has been that one of the most important philosophies in the recent FF7 remodeling and retexturing movement recently has been authenticity (with good reason, since it's the best compromise, it limits the ego of the artist and it encourages uniformity). Getting rid of the mountains is not being authentic to the original and is simply a case of getting rid of something that one happens to dislike personally.

[Nightmarish]

The grass on the ground looks perfect but i kinda feel there's no connection with the ground grass and the background grass.
It's almost like theres a cliff right after the ground grass and we're seeing a forest in a distance. 

Again, my opinion on the hills is that it's good as it is now, you could make them a bit more clearer though, even if in a distance.

[pyrozen]

i dig it, and i dont really feel that it is the drastic departure from the original as you stated. I also dont understand how making the battlefield look like your actually IN a field makes you feel more restricted than fighting within a tiny arena. We all know you can't run around the battle scenes, its a final fantasy game. I agree with sticking to the original materials, but when they can easily be improved upon, it would be a mistake to not take advantage of that.

Sorry kudisto, though i do value your opinion, we'll have to agree to disagree this.
 
Also, a transistion is in the works for the foregound/background mismatch. I'll do what i can, but there isn't really much room to fade the 2 together. Your going from a horizontal ground immedietly to a false backdrop. Think looney tunes when they hold up the fake tunnel and wile runs into it. That is basically how the background is structured.
 
also, in the picture you are looking up a hill, which amplifies the "cliff" that you are talking about, because it basically IS a cliff from that perspective. These scens need to be good, but most of the small flaws cannot be corrected unless we remodel the entire scenes...which i intend to do once i give a bunch of them the once-over graphic treatment.

lee

[Kudistos Megistos]

Sorry kudisto, though i do value your opinion

No you don't. Nor do you respect the opinion of the game's creators. Or the opinion of every game designer in history, nearly all of whom know that desolate backgrounds in a game look really, really awful. I hope you won't mind if I shoop some hills into the background. I also hope there's nothing else in the game that you didn't like and see the opportunity to rectify; we can expect to see that change as well.

[pyrozen]

Or the opinion of every game designer in history, nearly all of whom know that desolate backgrounds in a game look really, really awful.

i would like to see a source on this quote. Just because i don't kneel to your wishes does not mean i disregard where you are coming from. And i dont appreciate you attacking me as if i am somehow "destroying" final fantasy 7. I love this game as much as the rest of you, see the WMRP and the hours i poured into it for reference. Feel free to modify the background to your liking, i have no problem with that.

[sl1982]

Sorry kudisto, though i do value your opinion

No you don't. Nor do you respect the opinion of the game's creators. Or the opinion of every game designer in history, nearly all of whom know that desolate backgrounds in a game look really, really awful. I hope you won't mind if I shoop some hills into the background. I also hope there's nothing else in the game that you didn't like and see the opportunity to rectify; we can expect to see that change as well.

No need to be rude about it. He has every right to change the scene as he sees fit. Just as you have every right to not use it if you do not agree with the way he chose to redo it.

[Kudistos Megistos]

Or the opinion of every game designer in history, nearly all of whom know that desolate backgrounds in a game look really, really awful.

i would like to see a source on this quote.

My source is just about every game that has ever been made. As I said, there's a good reason why you never see backgrounds without some noticeable interesting features in there. How often do you see a background in a FF from 7 onwards with just grass and sky? I don't remember many. They all have big mountains or hills or cliffs or forests. Without interesting features in the background, you may as well have no background at all. But you obviously know better than I do and better than the game's designers, so meh

[Timu Sumisu]

phew, do i smell flames? jeez kool it guys. to try and tone things down to less aggressive comments and more even remarks. Kudi's points about design arnt so much from a concious point of view of "i like it like this or that". The basic precepts of design have to do with the subconcious observation of art. we as developpers/modders can argue back n forth about mountains or peices of interest closer or further and personal taste about it, but the real reason is that depending how you design a scene in this case, its what effect it'll have on yer brain . when playing a game casually, (/not critically/) you'll be lookin at commands, stats, quick fast paced animations, and bam the fights over. however, the ratios of crap in your scene will affect your immersion. big things in the background will make you feel like yer closer to something significant, getting closer etc, whilst something distant will invariably give your subconcious a feeling of being in the middle of nowhere, despite its being more realistic.

/wall of text

Point being, I think kudi's points need a bit more analysis and explanation to their validity. Ultimately, if you dont want to make larger points of interest in the backgrounds to yer scenes... then don't!

[Mike.S.N_310-X]

may I ask this, how to create new battle with new battle scene(not replace old battle scene, just add new) . I want to make some boss battles

[Nightmarish]

Just as you have every right to not use it if you do not agree with the way he chose to redo it.

Exactly, no one is forced to use pyrozen scene.

[Millenia]

less talk more work, sheesh

[Armorvil]

I read everything KM said, and I still think Pyro's scene is great.

Getting rid of the mountains is not being authentic to the original and is simply a case of getting rid of something that one happens to dislike personally.

Yup, and what's wrong with that ? It is logic to do what one likes, during one's free time. I like you KM, you're a great guy and all, but pretending that your opinion has more value than someone else's is quite pretentious. This is subjective matter we're talking about, here.

[sicatrix]

I hail from Mugen forums, and from my experience there all creations should only receive bug report feedback, throw an opinion here and there and hope the creator would agree, and if not edit it yourself upon release = a much better form of freedom.

[Kudistos Megistos]

pretending that your opinion has more value than someone else's is quite pretentious.

I'm not the one doing that. I'm saying that the opinion of just about everyone who has ever designed a video game has more value than the opinion of one person.

[pyrozen]

I'm not the one doing that. I'm saying that the opinion of just about everyone who has ever designed a video game has more value than the opinion of one person.

your creating a false group of mystery developers whom you have never even met to back up YOUR personal opinion. Or maybe you only play games that keep the enviroment really small. Initally i cared about your opinion, but now i don't since you obviously have no consideration for mine, or the fact that I am the one creating it. Maybe you should have all of your developers create the FF7 that you are envisioning, because they obviously agree with you. Or download GiMP and show me that your way is better, simply repeating it does nothing to convince me.

Im done with this petty bullshit and i'm going to go do something productive, i suggest everyone else do the same.

lee

[halkun]

Kudistos, cut it out. You are being antagonistic.

Try and hold opinions without an argument. If you are that passionate about it, you can try offering constructive criticism, or better yet,  try making something yourself as an example. It's not exactly hard to do a texture swap anymore.

[Kudistos Megistos]

your creating a false group of mystery developers whom you have never even met to back up YOUR personal opinion.

The Final Fantasy developers are neither false nor mysterious. Nor are the developers of all the other games that always have something significant in the background.

Or maybe you only play games that keep the enviroment really small.

Like RPGs? Or like all non-sandbox games, where having a small environment is a necessity?

Kudistos, cut it out. You are being antagonistic.

Try and hold opinions without an argument. If you are that passionate about it, you can try offering constructive criticism

What? When have I done anything other than offer constructive criticism? At no point have I resorted to personal attacks, and at no point have my criticisms been along the lines of "this sucks you suck everything you make sucks". No. I have offered general approval of most of pyrozen's work since he has been here but pointed out assertively that there is one part of it that has something wrong with it and have and said exactly how this can be improved. I have not based my criticisms on personal opinion but have pointed out general practice when it comes to making backgrounds in games. I have done so in language that is as unemotional as possible, even though I have been accused of "attacks" and ordering people to "kneel to my wishes". How can criticism possibly be more constructive?

Really, I fail to see how I am the one being antagonistic, especially when I was just accused of lying and told that my attempt at giving constructive criticism was "petty bullshit".

[Armorvil]

Yeah, because the game designers you know so well are superior entities and never mess up. To be frank, in all my years of gaming (and god knows I have many behind my back), these professionnals disappointed me more than once - even in Squaresoft / Square-Enix (FFX-2, FFXII, FFXIII, ...). How could we trust you, when you keep them so high in your esteem ?... ...See how this works ? No one's opinion is better than someone else's when one's dealing with matters as subjective as this.

And I'm sorry, but I stand my ground. You sound pretentious, with your talk "I know what the best game designers think ! Their (and my) opinions are of higher value than all of yours ! You are wrong !"

Quit being childish and move on, if you don't like what Pyro is doing.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I don't recall calling them perfect. Nay, it's such a basic design principle that even mediocre game designers know it. It's kind of like art classes in primary school; they tell you to not leave any white on the paper and have detail everywhere, even if it isn't very realistic. Why? Because bland backgrounds look bad except in very specific circumstances. Art may be subjective to some degree, but there are some basic principles that can only be broken in special circumstances by special people.

Also, I haven't used any personal insults, so don't call me "pretentious" or "childish", especially if other people are supposed to come to the conclusion that I am the one being antagonistic.

[Armorvil]

Look, you voiced your opinion. And the person you're talking to said he prefers his way. End of story. You can argue all you like, pull generalities and insult people's intelligence all you like (a basic design principle ? Art classes in primary school ? Ah ! Tell that to the game designers of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus), it won't change the fact that Pyro prefers his way. So yeah, your behaviour continues to be both pretentious and childish.

[Kudistos Megistos]

So yeah, your behaviour continues to be both pretentious and childish.

Remember kids, Kudistos Megistos is the one who is flaming and attacking everyone.

Since I think this thread is going this way, perhaps someone can make an ATTN: Kudistos Megistos thread in Completely Unrelated. Everyone I have ever disagreed with or who has a grudge for some other reason can go there and tell me what a big, mean poopy-head I am, whilst I respond (and yes, I will respond when people insult me or accuse me of things I haven't done).

[Armorvil]

Poor thing. I have nothing against you. As I said earlier, I like you (no, this is not a love declaration ). But that doesn't mean I have to always agree with you, either. And I also am childish and pretentious, at times. It's quite natural ; we're humans after all. The thing is, one has to let things go eventually.

Now come on, and give me a hug ! 

[Kudistos Megistos]

I have nothing against you. As I said earlier, I like you (no, this is not a love declaration ). But that doesn't mean I have to agree with you, either. And I can also be childish and pretentious, at times, it's quite natural. We're humans after all. The thing is one has to let things go, eventually.

Really? You see, when I disagree with someone I get insulted and accused of lying and flaming, so I thought that I'd act that way when people disagree with me.

Poor thing.

Hey, I'm not poor, I'm just thrifty!

[Bosola]

Whatever the rights and wrongs, there's scarcely anything to be gained by thrashing this out.

I, though, agree that most wide-open battle scenes I've encountered look uneven, visually 'unbalanced', estrange the player from action and look unfinished. But then, I'm sure people will claim Rebirth is too hard, that my pruning of enemies reduces variety and that Libre shouldn't have copied WM's UI, so I'll never command complete consensus. Such is life.

[sl1982]

That's enough everyone. If you wish to discuss art in game design you can create a thread in unrelated. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion but this is starting to degenerate into a flame war.