Author Topic: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!  (Read 62760 times)

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #225 on: 2020-04-29 08:11:33 »
Google says average review score is 4.6 of 5 or 88% on metacritic, all major outlets giving it 8-10 of 10.

Maximillian Dood did a spoiler talk with easy allies which contextualises a fair bit that upon further play time paying attention makes a whole buttonne of sense.

7r is most definitely its own genre or at least in an incredibly under exposed genre, most action RPGs are cooldown action based, think WoW waiting for skills to be available  with rotations being optimal, or they are total free action ala kingdom hearts or ff15, both promote being in the right place at the right time for very different reasons. 7r's combat is action until meaningful actions are available which is a terrible way to explain it, ATB charges faster with action whether it be attack or defense, ATB is a commodity, meaningful actions require ATB, healing, items, actual damage and strategic abilities all are meaningful actions, so you have to be active to do anything meaningful, this means moving,attacking and defending to allow you to do anything of actual value, which leans more towards fighting games then to TPA, only game I've played with a similar system of combat is rogue galaxy but even it was still a cooldown base  with a combo flair, point is playthrough on classic or easy sure you and hit square to win even on normal you can get away with it in some cases but your totally ignoring how the game is meant to be played, to make this abundantly clear I'll list the overarching mechanics.
-stagger system
-strength/weakness system
-atb charge system
-character specific abilities
-materia system
-weapon upgrade system
-weapons/armour/accessories system
-physical position systems(don't stand in line of fire for scrub deaths)
-summon system
Seriously the only time combat falls over is aerial combat which thankfully is fairly rare however it is a place where an improvement can be made, additional characters will also add further depth to combat cause every character playes different, and that gets even more complex if they add a Mid battle phs system now we actually have more then 3 characters permanent, basically saying the combat is shallow is downright false no matter how you slice it, it is most certainly not a normal action RPG

Adding in Hardmode is pretty great so far, only a couple of bosses in but crikey there is a significant step up in character management involved in being successful without items.

As for the Nomuraisms scattered throughout with emphasis on the last chapter are like 5% of the game experience and while playing through a second time that last chapter isn't anywhere near as much of a lore dumpster fire, mainly cause you actually notice the hints that we aren't playing 7o, all while allowing for non-main continuity DLC for all future games, which I'm all for more 7r gameplay.

Now I'm not saying the game is perfect by any stretch but the majority of the game is amazing, not liking the art style or this characters voice are entirely subjective, so I'll be as objective as I can be, story is close enough overall that you should like it if you liked the original excluding the last chapter, character development you definitely understand the characters better by the end of 7r then you do at the end of the midgar section of 7o side characters included making platefall and other similar events far more meaningful, combat is more engaging with more potential to expand, visually it looks far better, musically it's mind-blowing, voice sync and acting overall is passable at worst at best it makes you emote, and most importantly it has actual replayability, so objectively it's a better game


gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #226 on: 2020-04-29 11:04:45 »
Personally, I've stopped taken professional critics seriously for, I dunno, 10 years or so. Probably longer. IGN's review of FF7r was laughable as hell. According to critique consensus SW ep 8 is a great movie. lmao... I'm kinda surprised how badly ep 9 was treated by critics though. Imo it's worse than 8, but not that much. They are both terrible movies. Maybe FF7R-2 will have a similar fate?

FF7r is its own genre as in a new genre? Welp, I guess it depends on what one mean by genre.

FF8 has a pretty unique junction system. FF4 introduced the atb system (afaik). These games are not new or unique genres though. Mechanics =/= genre. If that's the case, there are literally 10s of thousands of genres. Perhaps even millions.

It's interesting to discuss what constitutes genres, but, imo, in the case of music, there are way too many "recognized" genres and sub-genres (especially in metal). Don't let that happen to games please. It's ridiculous. FF7r is an action RPG. Does it contain unique mechanics? Probably, I dunno, haven't done any research. Calling it an atb system seems a bit odd to me though. It's a cooldown system one has the means to directly manipulate with your characters input. It doesn't resemble the atb system from FF4-9 at all. Without stretching your logic. It's called atb in FF7R, and not cooldwn because, well, it's an FF.

Even if it is an entirely new unique genre, the fact remains that SE has pushed FFs in an action direction due to the market. That's where the AAA gold is, in action games. And why wouldn't they go in that direction if it's potentially more profitable?
I don't think SE will do the same thing with the DQ series though, mainly because that series is kinda sacred over in Japan. You don't #ยค%& with something sacred lol.

And to comment the stagger system. It's similar to the Octopath traveler weakness system, as in, with each new enemy you're looking to stagger/break them. It's interesting at first but gets exponentially more stale over time imo. The same was true for FF13. Although it may not be true in all encounters, what you initially look for is staggering/breaking. For each fight. Yawn... And the enemies can't stagger/break you. Why? Frankly, I think these games would be better without. Looking for ways to exploit the enemies without having this constant "I have to stagger" mentality is more fun imo. All enemies, in some sense, have the same weakness.

JFax88

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #227 on: 2020-04-29 12:27:03 »
it was a fun game, but many story decisions made were so stupid and inferior to the original. Especially stuff with Sephiroth and ghosts. Sephiroth feel so small-minded and petty compared to original where he feel mythic because they overuse him. It also crowd the plot, Shinra should be villain in Midgar but they keep having Sephiroth always show up which weaken story theme of class conflict vs Shinra. Also It diminishes his power and mystery just so they can have cheesy anime fight. Very sad end, I do not know why they made this decisions! I know they explain it but explanation is so dumb (time travel? why?).

I thought characters were better than expected. I was worried but Aerith act like herself, first time since original FFVII. Cloud too. Jessie too anime also but I like more character for Avalanche characters. It is sad to me that they messed up story so bad because they did a good job on characters. This could have been great, if not for so many awful story choice.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #228 on: 2020-04-29 23:05:27 »
By your definition would Super Mario World and Mario 64 be the same genre, what about uncharted and gears of war... Gameplay mechanics are wildly different between the 4 games mentioned and they are all considered different genres, and by definition they are all games in which you play a particular role to see the story... So they are all RPGs, so the real question is how broad or shallow are your genre definitions? Me I'm definitely on the bandwagon of being as specific as possible when defining things cause let's face it people take things the wrong way whenever possible so why not reduce the chances  by being specific.

The writer's are the same minus Sakaguchi, the story is just as ridiculous and convoluted, and is still carried by the characters, the dialogue in the cut scenes are close enough to word for word to the originals localisation, all the plot points are hit for the midgar section, then the things that have been added character development wise follow the originals character arcs only making it a smoother change through the stages, the only issues people are having are the plot ghosts because they are fairly ham fisted due to their sporadic nature until they just get dumped on you, cause hey pretty well everyone missed their intentions on the first playthrough, which happens cause there is just so much they have done that is downright amazing to draw your attention away from them in particular.

Freshies are loving the remake while the diehards either love it or hate it based almost entirely on the last 1-3hrs of game time as in that 1-3hrs are the only thing the majority of diehards hate but they hate it with such a passion it ruins an otherwise amazing game, oh these are the diehards that have actually played the game rather then watching someone else play it or just the cutscenes.

The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #229 on: 2020-04-30 04:40:52 »
The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.

I completely disagree with the above statement. IMO, the stagger mechanic was completely ruined, pointless, and frustrating during boss fights. Each boss fight had 3-4 mandatory cutscenes that reset the stagger meter and hardcap the damage you could do to them. Meaning if you got that stagger to 98% when the boss has 75% health, you will have to watch a cutscene and start over with stagger at 0%. If you manage to get the stagger and try to use some limit breaks or summons while the boss is staggered the cutscene will prevent it doing any real damage and keep the boss at the nearest threshold (usually 75%, 50%, and 25%). It makes it feel like there is no point engaging with the stagger mechanic or the limit breaks because they are rarely if ever useful.

Stagger was a good idea for the combat that was severely botched in execution when it matters most, the boss fights.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #230 on: 2020-04-30 08:01:16 »
No one said it's implementation was perfect...but it's one of the better implementations of such systems, that the majority of issues people have with it are easily patchable, but it sounds to me someone needs to git gud

Mendelevium

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #231 on: 2020-04-30 08:17:45 »
I get you're probably joking, with the git gud part.

But the parts are easily patchable are still valid to criticize until they are patched :).

The Black-caped Man

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #232 on: 2020-04-30 09:30:19 »
Personally, I've stopped taken professional critics seriously for, I dunno, 10 years or so. Probably longer. IGN's review of FF7r was laughable as hell. According to critique consensus SW ep 8 is a great movie. lmao... I'm kinda surprised how badly ep 9 was treated by critics though. Imo it's worse than 8, but not that much. They are both terrible movies. Maybe FF7R-2 will have a similar fate?


I felt just the same....There is so many flaws in both movies not only from a standpoint that they do not add up with the original movies but just are extremely poor, obvious, crappy movie making in general. There's around 10k youtube clips about that already. So it's kinda like after TLJ they realized that faking the rotten tomatoes/metacritics scores up to 90% is too obvious so they tuned it down a bit to make it seem more realistic(yet still WAY too much for such crap).

gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #233 on: 2020-04-30 12:13:07 »
By your definition would Super Mario World and Mario 64 be the same genre, what about uncharted and gears of war... Gameplay mechanics are wildly different between the 4 games mentioned and they are all considered different genres, and by definition they are all games in which you play a particular role to see the story... So they are all RPGs, so the real question is how broad or shallow are your genre definitions? Me I'm definitely on the bandwagon of being as specific as possible when defining things cause let's face it people take things the wrong way whenever possible so why not reduce the chances  by being specific.

The writer's are the same minus Sakaguchi, the story is just as ridiculous and convoluted, and is still carried by the characters, the dialogue in the cut scenes are close enough to word for word to the originals localisation, all the plot points are hit for the midgar section, then the things that have been added character development wise follow the originals character arcs only making it a smoother change through the stages, the only issues people are having are the plot ghosts because they are fairly ham fisted due to their sporadic nature until they just get dumped on you, cause hey pretty well everyone missed their intentions on the first playthrough, which happens cause there is just so much they have done that is downright amazing to draw your attention away from them in particular.

Freshies are loving the remake while the diehards either love it or hate it based almost entirely on the last 1-3hrs of game time as in that 1-3hrs are the only thing the majority of diehards hate but they hate it with such a passion it ruins an otherwise amazing game, oh these are the diehards that have actually played the game rather then watching someone else play it or just the cutscenes.

The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.


Hmmm, did I have a definition of what a genre is? I'm not sure what logic you refer to? Mario 64 is a 3D-platformer; Super Mario bros. is a 2D-platformer.
Mario 64 is an Adventure 3D-platformer? Mario 64 is an Adventure-Collector 3D-platformer? Mario 64 is a Family-friendly Adventure-Collector 3D-platformer with Boss fights and overall Silliness? I guess Mario 64 is FFAC 3DP BS. Mario 64 is not an RPG, not by a longshot.
Again, it may be interesting to discuss what constitutes genres, where the line goes etc. Being specific is fine, just don't bloat the dictionary with useless words (see metal genres). There are such things as sub-genres, descriptions and tags too. Game of Thrones contains humor, but saying GoT's genre includes comedy is stretching the specifics by a ridiculous amount imo.

The story is convoluted in the original FF7, yes, and at times silly and ridiculous, but the art direction/style didn't make that such a big deal in the original (the silliness part). Now they add multi dimensions and/or time traveling mechanics on top of the existing convoluted story. The complexity increases exponentially by each BS factor such as these they add. And, be sure, this is not the end of it.

I've seen plenty of newcomers who does not like it, or at least not call it a masterpiece. This a quantity over quality argument of what I assume is about the quality of the game?
Imo, the game is slightly above mediocre at best. Perhaps a 7 if I'm in a good mood (I would have to be drunk as well lol). The gameplay is not my cup of tea, so I'm not the best person to judge. Calling it a fast cash-grab is going too far, but it's within the same ballpark; at least the same sport.

Kefka

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #234 on: 2020-04-30 19:40:31 »
Also the story of the original was clever and had a lot of adult themes.  Most of all you cared about the characters and could suspend disbelief.  There's none of that with the Demake - it's an out of control, totally unbelievable hack n slash.  The original wasn't perfect, but it got an awful lot right.  Also, I'd point out that the English translation of the original was the main reason FF7 is seen as more convoluted than it was.  You can't use the flawed original translation as a hammer to beat the original with.

Indeed, certain mistranslations completely changed parts of the background story around, or at least made it sound rather obscure. My absolute favorite mistranslation is still what Vincent says when you first open his coffin:

Vincent: "So Sephiroth knows he was created five years ago?"

When it should be more like: "So Sephiroth learned about his creation five years ago?"

What's interesting is that this very same mistranslation is also in the german version, so it looks to me like the german translators didn't translate the original japanese script, but rather the already flawed english script, thus carrying over all the mistakes from there, plus adding new ones.

Mabinog

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #235 on: 2020-04-30 22:28:13 »
Dunkey reviewed the game (link in spoiler tags)

https://youtu.be/8Qlf3b9wa4s

If you know Dunkey you'll see his final verdict coming. And it caused quite a stir among some gamers.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #236 on: 2020-04-30 22:52:13 »
Original Japanese is still a convoluted mess,carried by the character interactions and Nomuraisms,the flawed original translation is also the official translation. Very few people globally would have played the actual Japanese translation that don't cruise on these forums cause hey they never officially re-translated it.

All the primary plot points that people seem to love about ff7 are directly from Nomura... Aeriths death, the Cloud/Zack/Sephiroth connection, the bad guy switch and I'm pretty sure the character backgrounds, it's been a while since I read the ff7 ultimania.

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #237 on: 2020-04-30 23:27:35 »
Nomura had nothing to do with it

Wrong. He had a minimal role when it came to the story but he did have his hand in some parts. Not the text  or dialogue, but actual story events.
« Last Edit: 2020-04-30 23:46:05 by -Ric- »

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #238 on: 2020-05-01 00:39:15 »
Eco-terroists blowing stuff up arguing with a corporation run "country" meets an indigenous lifeform who has special powers, evil corporation is evil does human experimentation leading to creation of big bad part alien part planet blood all evil, who later goes crazy and murders a mess of people, main character isnt who he thinks he is but was there for the events he remembers but also remembers someone else's memories did I mention the love triangle.... No not convoluted at all.... Arguing that ff7 is a coherent story even in its native Japanese is a rather arduous task as the story has more twists and turns then a bag of twisties or a cup noodles, whether it's official translation is poor or not the Underlying story is a convoluted mess which has so many threads many of which are never fully explored, the character arcs are the only things reasonably well executed to the point where they could be considered coherent alone

Did I mention the primary bad guy changes legit 4-5 times
« Last Edit: 2020-05-01 01:08:44 by Izban »

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #239 on: 2020-05-01 03:28:51 »
Billionaire evil son of billionaire dead father, therefor owner of all of said father's company and assets trying to "borrow" the most ghetto-looking propeller airplane in the entire world, while being in possession of helicopters, boats, submarines, and even airships.

10/10. Perfect writing.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-01 03:43:00 by -Ric- »

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #240 on: 2020-05-01 04:01:04 »
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.

But without a doubt it is a incoherent mess of a story that's is held together but amazing characters, who's motivations are fairly well fleshed out so their interactions are easily believed. It's story is a mess the dialogue scripting gave us "this guy are sick" but even with the numerous mistranslations and the caricaturisation of characters they are still well and truely beloved by many.

There was so many unfinished plot threads they were able to make not just 1 sequel but an entire compilation including 2 prequels with 3 prequels, 2 sequels and assorted novelizations as well as a requel using existing lore and plot points without the need for additional thought into new characters to make passable content

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #241 on: 2020-05-01 04:17:38 »
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.

I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #242 on: 2020-05-01 04:24:17 »
Personal order 6,7,9,5/4,8,12,15,13------10.... 10 was so bad i legit don't understand why so many people have such an attachment to it that being said I don't manage to get past getting dog bro as a companion absolutely nothing about it grabbed me.

But I legit can't wait till I get to play remakes take on red or as he shall forever been know as labratdog

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #243 on: 2020-05-01 05:22:54 »
No one said that the original FF7's writing was perfect, but it was certainly a better implementation of the plot points than the remake. If someone thinks the original was convoluted, it sounds like someone needs to git gud at reading comprehension.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #244 on: 2020-05-01 05:39:11 »
Reading comprehension isn't exactly a difficult thing to do.

Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad.... It doesn't but it does require characters to be compelling to not be a train wreck, which 7o had, it also has so many of imperfections overlooked because of fantastic characters and nostalgia.

5% of a games story being different to it's original makes it a terrible game overall, the story and dialogue is practically identical aside from a couple of translation tweaks and expansions on particular side characters.

There is no objective standard that it is possible to say original is a better game but you can say remake has plenty that is objectively better everything else is subjective

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #245 on: 2020-05-01 06:23:55 »
Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad....
Nope. I think convoluted = difficult to follow, hence why reading comprehension is the key skill to overcome the "extreme complexity" of FF7 original's story.

It wasn't just 5% of the story from the remake that was significantly worse and less interesting, it was more like 25% (every time Sephiroth is shoved in your face devalues him as a character, every scene with plot ghosts is completely brain dead, all the side-quest sequences between main plot points, introduction of Zack at the end of the game with no context, the main story from Shinra tower onward to the end of the game, and probably more I could think of if I spent more time trying to remember).

There are many objective standards you could use to evaluate the story from the remake and the original, and I would bet nearly all of them would find the remake wanting. Stating "everything is subjective" is relativism and quickly steers discussions in pointless directions.

Also, lol at "objectivity is impossible except remake is objectively better in some things and everything else is automatically subjective because I deem it so"

Manakaiser

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #246 on: 2020-05-01 10:12:44 »
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.

I agree with that exact statement.

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #247 on: 2020-05-01 10:18:15 »
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #248 on: 2020-05-02 01:21:50 »
Visually -> only the resolution of the artwork is objectively better from FF7OG to FF7RE (unless you count environmental textures, which might actually be a lower texture than the original. FF7OG doors looked more detailed than Cloud's apartment door in FF7RE).

Musically -> FF7RE is not bad but the main theme is hot garbage (shiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeeeeeee bbbbbbrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhttttt), as well as the butchering of Wallmarket's atmosphere. Anything good in FF7RE musically is derived from FF7OG (which is true for more than just the music in this game). Some of it good, some of it bad, but not better on the whole.

Vocally -> When it comes to Aerith and Zack, I would rather have NO VOICED LINES than the abysmal performances in FF7 remake. They were worse in FF7 remake than in Advent Children, how do you even mess up that bad?

Variety of Play -> Complete BS category here. The entirety of FF7OG has way more enemies, way more characters, way more materia, way more items, etc. FF7OG>>>>>>>FF7 remake when it comes to variety of anything.

Depth of play -> Can't comment here because I don't obsess over how deep I can jump into game mechanics, its not my thing. That being said, I bet hardcore FF7OG players would find the depth of FF7RE's gameplay pretty shallow.

These are objectively better no matter how you slice it, or just better because it copies modern game design?

Motivation for nearly all characters are given NO CONTEXT AT ALL in FF7 remake. If you don't have knowledge of FF7OG's story, there is no context for who Sephiroth is or why he pops up every 2 minutes whispering in Cloud's ear. There is no context for the plot ghosts or the KH/Advent Children story infusion without trying to rationalize it with extended FF7 universe media. There is no context to why Tifa is apprehensive or continually asking Cloud about his past. There is no motivation given whatsoever to Red XIII, since you only see him at the end of the game. No context for who the hell Zack is supposed to be, and actually ruins the setup for the best plot reveal in FF7OG. FF7RE gives context to nothing and ruins a lot of the setup the original game had. More cinematic presentation does not equal better writing.

FF7OG actually has setup and payoff for its plot reveals and character growth. FF7RE has absolutely none outside of the character growth for Barret.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-02 01:44:09 by sackyachouchie »

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #249 on: 2020-05-02 01:55:52 »
It's like someone saying Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy of movies had better writing than the original book by JRR Tolkien because it had better voice acting, better visuals, etc. When in reality, anything good in those movies are derived from the original book, and anything outside of what was explicitly written in the original is garbage.

FF7 remake is to FF7OG what Peter Jackson's The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey film is to JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit in terms of writing: derivative when good, bloated when mediocre, and extremely disappointing overall.