Author Topic: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!  (Read 62754 times)

Izban

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #250 on: 2020-05-02 08:43:25 »
Abusive Cid would like a chat with you....as would more then mildly racist depiction of a black man....see I can cherry pick arguments to its fairly easy to poke wholes in arguments when you ignore the majority of what is actually said

Visually there is more pixels in remake clouds eyes then most of the backgrounds in og7, and the backgrounds your talking about having limited textures haven't fully loaded on today's hardware.

Cherry picking aerith and Zack for your issues with the voice acting is a poor argument cause 2 lines is all Zack has and aerith has plot reasons for some of the more suspect lines.

The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack

As for your 'tear down' of the narrative argument I wasn't comparing full game to remake I was comparing remake to midgar only, comparing the hobbit, with lord of the rings to just the hobbit is never gonna be fair.

Remake has more to do in midgar the og7 but that's not hard .

When you talk about interactive media then depth of content it's kind of important cause it adds to replayability because there is a higher goal then just finishing a title.

You kinda lost me when you started touting JRR tolkien dude had an amazing story to tell but God it was painful to read... Kinda like Shakespeare... This coming from someone who has no issues reading  literal translated novels and normalised translated novels

The Black-caped Man

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #251 on: 2020-05-02 09:42:24 »
The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack

You found another^^ that basically understands and supports everything that was said in this post u are refering to:)

It seems to me like to you, having better technology graphics and sound quality wise equals better graphics and music. That opinion completely ignores the feeling an environment, a sound track gives you in a specific scenario. If they give barrets weapons call of duty sounds will you also find that great cause its so flawless and real?
Same with the voice over. 7 had no voices so you cant state that its "better" in the remake. DLPB captured it quite well in his post as I did a few pages ago that in the OG you had your own interpretation of character voices, detailed looks and acting which is now stolen from you and replaced with Nomuras dbz matrix action ff7 vision
« Last Edit: 2020-05-02 09:51:34 by The Black-caped Man »

Manakaiser

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #252 on: 2020-05-02 16:03:13 »
In terms of voice acting, as mentioned before, I kinda agree.

The thing with Voice acting is, it generally is a great thing in new games, adding often to immersion (If the acting is good which in this case it isnt, but thats not the point i wanna make).

The problem with adding voice acting to a remake is the same problem that books that get made into a succesful movie have, who then have the audacity to add the actors from the movie onto the cover of the new releases (which is something i absolutely HATE). It takes away alot as it robs you of your interpretation and in that way part of the experience of the characters you previously had (or voices in this case).

gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #253 on: 2020-05-03 00:29:04 »
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.

Visuals and music have a more advanced technology behind, them, sure. Imo, the art-style in the original suits the story much better.
Because of voice acting the music design is approached differently. If they are objectively better compositions is another other question.

Don't care about the battle system, but there are a lot more strategic potential in the original, though they didn't get fully realized in the final product. As in, you don't really need all of it. But it is there. So... I dunno, speaking quantity, the original has more.

Fleshing things out does not necessarily make things better. The new narrative actually adds a whole plethora of new plot-holes (not that the original didn't have any), and stupid anime-logic (for lack of better word). Biggs, Wedge and Jessie comes off as bad, cringe-worthy characters. Sure there are some good moments, but overall cringy as hell. The orignal characters comes off as caricatures of themselves. Imo, I think that was inevitable in this art style.
The original had a better narrative structure when it comes to gameplay vs story. In FF7R the structure adds to the convolution.

Saying FF7 was a convoluted mess is not very honest. It's not THAT hard to follow.

I lold at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO-Ce148Pyo

Mabinog

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #254 on: 2020-05-03 02:12:36 »
You think FF7R has bad voice acting? Check out the Trials of Mana remake.

https://twitter.com/About20Donuts/status/1254170156583940096

It's still a great remake, but man is it low-budget.

Manakaiser

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #255 on: 2020-05-03 04:17:03 »
You think FF7R has bad voice acting? Check out the Trials of Mana remake.

https://twitter.com/About20Donuts/status/1254170156583940096

It's still a great remake, but man is it low-budget.

euhm sure, thats terrible I guess, but how is this relevant?

its like saying "you think Hunger games are bad movies? Look at Battlefield Earth: A Saga of the Year 3000"


Mabinog

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #256 on: 2020-05-03 12:02:58 »
It's not really relevant. Just wanted to share that lol.

Kefka

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #257 on: 2020-05-03 22:01:55 »
Alright, after watching the entire 15 h cutscene marathon on youtube from start to finish, here's my 2 cents on their new take on the story: most of the normal dialogues with NPCs and such were actually fine, and I liked most of the additional talk between the party members and Avalanche, it was kinda fun spending a bit more time with them. I didn't have a problem with the voice acting either, but maybe that's because english isn't my native language. Either way it was fine by me. The added/changed content is where most of their narrative problems lie. Some of it was good, some of it was meaningless, and others make you just shake your head in disbelief.

Now, I'm absolutely fine with adding more background to side characters as long as it is still in line with the original story and doesn't contradict it in any way. In Jesse's case, they got this right. In other cases, unfortunately, not so much. The game starts out faithfully enough, but here and there they start to roll off the track, and these moments become more frequent the further you progress in the game. And I'm not even talking about Nomura's fate-ghosts or the time-traveling Sephiroth, for even if you were to delete them from the game, there'd still remain a whole bunch of other logic errors and plotholes, some of them with a severe negative impact on the overall story. And those are simply difficult to overlook for me. I could write a long list of all the illogical, contradicting, and sometimes downright hilarious story changes that ruin the atmosphere, but that might take a while. And it's often some major plot points where they fail, sadly.

Devina

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #258 on: 2020-05-06 10:03:58 »
Alright, just finished it last night.

As a preface, I've played the original FF7 and only completed it quite recently.
I enjoyed this remake a lot, in spite of its flaws. Overall, I'd give it a 9 out of 10.
To me, Midgar is the heart of the original FF7, and my hot take is that the original gets boring after leaving Midgar and turns into more of a generic fantasy, so the idea of Midgar having its own game, I highly support. I also thought the original had some boring and nonsensical parts and bad pacing issues from time to time.

THE GOOD

I like the battle system a lot, played on standard, even if I feel like I didn't full grasp it.
I somehow beat Rufus with a Limit Break, which seemed like a very tough fight. Sephiroth seemed pretty easy. I didn't have that much of a hard time with Hell House like others have, only died once. If anything, Air Buster screwed me over multiple times. I don't know if it was just me, but Fire/Blizzard/Aero seemed useless in comparison to Thunder? Thunder just wrecked all the robots.

I loved the graphics and music. The environments in the game are breathtaking, altho I wish there were less linear corridors. They did an excellent job with Wall Market.

I liked a lot of the expansion, like seeing Cloud's and Tifa's apartments in the slums, getting to
be with Avalanche more, learning more about Aerith's history, etc.

I liked the new take on the Shinra Building and seeing it like a museum. The "Ancients hologram" really floored me.

I liked how Tifa and Barret just seemed a lot more human in this game, and I liked the moment where Tifa breaks down in Aerith's garden. I'm glad I didn't get Aerith's/Barret's scene.

I thought the voice acting was also good, but I also think FF10 has good voice acting so take my opinion with salt. I was fine with everyone's voices, and I think Tifa's a perfect case. Something which bothered me was Zack's, it just felt off in a bad way. Not sure why they couldn't get a better soundalike.

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I got pretty emotional during Aerith's and Marlene's hug since I can relate to the subject of childhood trauma and losing your "home". It's really amazing how giving characters voices and going more into their histories just helps you bond with them more.

THE BAD
Aerial combat feels sluggish and awful.

I honestly have no idea why Roche and Leslie were in this story, they seemed a bit superfluous. I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.

Some things I found not-so-great were the padding (some areas went on for way too long like the sewers and Hojo's lab) and the robot arm segments.

Spoiler-wise, I really hope Zack isn't alive, it would ruin the remake a lot. I hope it turns out he died some other way in the alternative timeline (just because he survived the army showdown, it doesn't mean the whispers didn't Final Destination him later). The ending *is* confusing, and I think that's a bad thing here. I guess they want to keep fans talking for years, but I would've preferred something more concrete.

The game also suffered from some annoying gamey stuff, like repeating NPC dialog which takes me out of the experience. You can also knock chairs across the Shinra cafeteria and no one reacts. It comes off as silly.

I also got two glitches in my playthrough, one was a small one where Tifa walked through a table, the other one seemed to make Jenova Dreamweaver not spawn tentacles, forcing me to reload.

THE FUTURE

I'm very sad we won't get another installment for another few years. I hope the team seriously takes advice. I hope we don't get more than 3 parts.

I'm also a bit sad that this remake fell short of certain people's expectations. It's clear that a lot of love and effort was put into it.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-06 10:12:46 by Devina »

Dark Phoenix

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #259 on: 2020-05-06 18:21:31 »
Quote
I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.

IMO, having them survive is not a great thing, period.  Although you only get to know them a bit, the deaths of the Avalanche members... That's the point where you realize that Shinra is DEAD SERIOUS about stopping Avalanche, and they don't care how many people die to do it.  It also has a profound effect on Barret that's probably going to be lost.  Anybody ask why Barret's going to turn leadership over to Cloud in the remake, when in the original he did it because the deaths of his team members made him realize that he wasn't cut out to be a leader?

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #260 on: 2020-05-06 19:53:17 »
Barret's character is already 1000 times better in the remake than in the original. I'm not worried one bit.

gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #261 on: 2020-05-07 07:54:22 »
Hmmm, I guess the arbiters of fate failed to make him a 1000 worse than what he is in the remake.

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #262 on: 2020-05-07 14:51:19 »
They did fail. Not as terribly as your attempt at a joke but hey, at least you tried.

Barret's character in the original is a complete moron, that throws random tantrums, has 0 leadership qualities and has no idea what's going on 90% of the time. He's basically retarded.

Barret's character in the remake is actually intelligent, shown to have real leadership skills. While he still has temperament issues, he's way more calculated about it. The way his relationship develops with Cloud throughout the game is way deeper and more enjoyable than in the original. You get to see distrust and bad taste jokes slowly turning into respect, co-operation and even friendship. All scenes with Marlene are also way deeper than they were in the original. You get to see Avalanche's leader, the hardheaded and the soft, caring father. And all sides are displayed beautifully.

So yeah, make all the dumb jokes you want, Barret is a far better character in the remake than he ever was in the original.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-07 15:07:39 by -Ric- »

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #263 on: 2020-05-07 15:37:35 »
And that's fine. However, the character is different in the remake. And in this case,  different=better. You'll probably disagree though, which is fine. We already know the remake is the worst thing to ever happen in your opinion. But I personally find the character way more relatable to in the remake and way more interesting. It's a joy to have Barret in the group. It's the character that was done the best in my opinion.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-07 15:41:37 by -Ric- »

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #264 on: 2020-05-07 15:53:57 »
I actually surprised at how close Barret from remake matched Barret from the Beacause retranslation (both of which were better than the original localization IMO). I was impressed at just how much of a difference a proper translation/localization effort can make, and how Nojima kept the spirit of that character in the remake. They definitely did Barret justice in the remake, and I really liked his voice acting, and thought the voice actor provided a relatively nuanced performance despite the character being so bombastic.

However, I can't help but feel remake's Barret either won't go through or won't have the justification to go through the character development Barret experiences in the original from his failures as a leader. All the impact is removed from the story in general, and I think a lot of that blame can be laid at Toriyama and Nomura's feet.

I think Nojima deserves credit for the characters being written in a much better and more faithful way than at any other point in the FF7 compilation (which were garbage in terms of capturing the characters, IMO).

gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #265 on: 2020-05-07 19:04:17 »
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

And my joke was funny  ;D ;D

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #266 on: 2020-05-07 21:07:19 »
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

I agree 100% with this. I think the retranslation makes this even more apparent.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not sure I agree with this because no one goes back to check on sector 7, but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless. I also don't find it a stretch that Barret has a sense of humor, since he was always throwing shade at Cloud from the beginning in OG, not to mention the stairs in Shinra HQ infiltration.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.

gjoerulv

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #267 on: 2020-05-08 00:43:58 »
but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless.

I'm not suggesting he is heartless. It's his emotions that drives him, 'cause he lost so much dear to him. At this point in the story, Barret wouldn't be onboard going back IF the choice was between that and rescue Aerith. If he was pushed to do it, he would reluctantly follow, probably being angry about it. Tifa would not be angry, and agree to follow. Tifa is quick to agree to go to the HQ mainly because of Cloud.

Also, the situation in the remake is different. In the original there is little to suggest this many people survived. What we consistently see during the plate incident is that people don't want to leave. Not that there couldn't be any big evacuation operation going on in the original.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.

Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D
Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.

sackyachouchie

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #268 on: 2020-05-08 01:55:18 »
Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D
That is actually my opinion. I think the plus minus on Barret is 5% in either direction. If he is better, it wouldn't be much. If he is worse, I don't think it would be much either. But, we are also talking about Barret, who I think was one of the better attempts at portraying an OG character in this game. Out of the OG cast that they attempted to portray in remake, I think they were closest with Cloud and Barret.

Aerith's voice actress kills her character for me, so I can't even judge the writing properly.

Tifa is okay, but it seems like they really focused on her apprehension about Cloud's past rather than her attachment to him (which is perhaps a more important character trait). She seems slightly off to me.

There is too little of Red XIII for me to judge much.

I think they butchered Zack with his voice acting as well.

Sephiroth is diminished at least 10% by every unnecessary inclusion in the story, and by at %20 for each time he whispers anime tropes in Cloud's ear.

Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge were pretty good IMO, but I can definitely see how their "development" might not be stylistically or tonally consistent with the original, or to the tastes of the OG fans other than myself.

So really I think they did a good job with Cloud and Barret's characters, and could have done better with everyone else in the main cast.

Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.
That's pretty much what I meant. I think these details are within the margin of error of interpretation. That doesn't mean they aren't possibly valid, I just think its a stretch to state it as a fact, let alone a very consequential fact if so.

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #269 on: 2020-05-08 02:03:37 »
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though.

Hm it kinda is though. He is by far the least intelligent person in the group. Yes, including Cait Sith. Since he's controlled by Reeve and it's pretty clear that Reeve is far more intelligent than Barret, and including Yuffie, whom despite being a kid, actually manages to trick the entire party and steal everyone's Materia. Crap, even the Materia tutorial at the start of the game makes him sound like a complete buffoon. Same thing happens when Cloud is telling the story of his mission with Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It's actually sad that the leader of Avalanche is portrayed as complete donkey. Granted they were never meant to look like a well organized and capable terrorist gang but come on.

I don't know about translation mods and I don't care either. I'd rather stick with the official material even if it is flawed. I haven't even bothered with the PC version of the game in years as it takes longer to properly get all mods to work great together and bug-free than it does to Platinum the game on the PS4 lol. If they ever make it to an official release, hit me up and let me know. Until then, they mean crap to me. And they never will make it to an official release so that's that.

When I compare the Barret of the original game, from start to the end of Midgar ONLY, it's clear that the Barret in the remake is far more intelligent, far more calculated, far more funny, cares for Marlene far more and the development of his relationship with Cloud throughout the game is just so much more enjoyable to watch.

This is, of course, just my opinion. I totally understand if you don't agree.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-08 02:16:28 by -Ric- »

Devina

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #270 on: 2020-05-08 02:30:24 »
I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.


-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #271 on: 2020-05-08 02:39:13 »
I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.

She has successfully avoided Shinra's attempts to take her for years. Granted that they did not want to harm her, or else they could've easily forced her to go along from the start but still, it's a decent feat. She also gets around the slums on her own, despite all the dangers. She's not physically strong or "tough" and she's definitely no genius but she's not Barret-dumb either.

She also doesn't go to the City of the Ancients on her own out of stupidity, she knew exactly what could/would happen. She chose to go alone and attempt to cast Holy.

In the remake, she doesn't spend THAT long talking with Marlene either. Just enough to calm her down, gain her trust and take her to safety.

Devina

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #272 on: 2020-05-08 07:14:52 »
You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself". Aerith is aware Sephiroth is out there, the guy with a huge sword who impaled a giant snake. Even Barret is smart enough to ask "why did she go herself?!"

I played the original translation of FF7, not Beacause, and I don't remember Barret being stupid or throwing random tantrums. I remember Barret asking a lot of questions, but that doesn't necessarily make him stupid, just inquisitive.

If anything, I feel the remake's Barret is more hot-headed and can't control himself. For example, in the elevator scene in the beginning, Cloud pisses off Barret. In the original, Barret shakes his hand while looking away, but ultimately holds it in. In the remake, Barret is like SAY THAT AGAIN and is basically shouting at Cloud for not caring about the planet. There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

I was also disappointed that the remake left out the part where Barret says about Cloud's pay "but that gil is for Marlene's schooling!"

-Ric-

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #273 on: 2020-05-08 15:28:32 »
Selfish, absolutely. Stupid too obviously due to the outcome it had but not "dumb". She knew what would happen. She simply chose to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

If you mean the train scene, the same scene exists in the original. He nearly shoots the poor employee. In the original elevator scene, Cloud mostly just doesn't care about the speech. In the remake, he actually makes fun of Barret and tells him to get help (for hearing the planet talk, implying he needs mental help). So yeah, "say that again!" is not too unexpected of a reaction when you tell someone they need help with their mental state lol. And it's that same distrust and anger he has towards Cloud that makes their relationship great in the remake. You see it slowly changing and turning into respect, trust and even a bit of friendship.

IlMomo86

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Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #274 on: 2020-05-08 16:53:14 »
You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself".

I think that Yuna would. That is, if at some point Yuna realized that Tidus had somehow become the group leader and center and yet Tidus is a mythomaniac liar who attempted to strangle her, possibly because he is actually controlled by the enemy, say if once or twice Seymour gave orders and Tidus fell in trance and obeyed. Especially if Tidus has thrown a speech hours before, about getting a certain mass-destruction weapon before Seymour because Seymour has so many mindless slaves who could throw their life away to get the weapon for him, and then it is demonstrated that the mindless slave was none other than Tidus itself, who did in fact provide the mass-destruction weapon for Seymour.

Among all this, Yuna is also in love with Tidus, or what she perceives to be Tidus.

Yes, I think in such circumstances Yuna would distance herself from Tidus immediately. In Yuna's case the group is more connected to her than to Tidus, in Cloud's case is the opposite. Another reason to do exactly what Aeris did.

For as much as I utterly prefer Tifa, selfishness and stupidity hardly are traits of Aeris. Would nullify the whole story if they were, actually, since Aeris ultimately saves the day.

You know, I've spent most of my teenage and twenties saying that FF7 was an overrated game and undeservedly overshadowing other JRPGs but I'm in my thirties now and looking back, it's surprising to re-discover how foreseeing, vast, cohesive and deep the narrative was. I think most people don't even realize it fully. Which brings us to the next:

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I have an hard time realizing how you could think that Zack&co returning to life is a problem for the story themes and meaning and yet not despise the very same narrative device that made this insult of a plot twist possibile. A lone chapter was enough to destroy most of the FF7 themes all in a single shot, I am amazed about how lightheartedly people are taking this.

And purism have nothing to do with it. Screw Purists. But who are purists anyway? Nobody denies that the game was flat-out great because, and not despite, its differences. There were a lot of things that where entirely different in this FF7R, and all for the better. Biggs, Jessie, the Avalanche, Wutai, the Turks, Wall Market, Beautiful Bro, Honey Bee, Hojo's Lab, Barret. All different and revamped, and all utterly awesome. Why? Because they took the original and made expanded, modernized and re-imagined takes of it.

Chap18 is a different beast. It's spitting on all the themes that gave the story meaning and impact, and turning them to a childish Kingdomhearted narration where death, time, tragedy, effort, self-conscience and even ecology are all meaningless. And it was possibile with timelines and broken destinies. If that's what you call breathing new life in a story, well, you certainly are an happier person than I am right now.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-08 17:46:01 by IlMomo86 »