Author Topic: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!  (Read 62755 times)

Devina

  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #275 on: 2020-05-08 19:58:38 »
Aerith went totally alone, and she was the last Cetra so she should've realized how important her life was. She was the only one who could obtain Holy, and if she didn't, the planet could be doomed. While sure, Cloud was acting sort of insane and possessed, she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection. Instead, they split into a "Aerith vs everyone else" party. This is the same logic why people shouldn't go alone in horror movies. Everyone just got lucky that Aerith was able to control the Lifestream in her death, if she wasn't powerful enough, then everyone would've died.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes. It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2. Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not. It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

I also find it a bit offensive when people call Kingdom Hearts "childish", as if that's KH in a nutshell. Yes, KH is aimed at children as a demographic, but they also keep older fans in mind, which is why they add their insane tough critical modes, superbosses, etc. I grew up with KH, and it taught me a lot of deep themes about friendship, pursuing your own path, not giving up when things seem hopeless, etc. Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-08 20:00:48 by Devina »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #276 on: 2020-05-09 13:31:09 »
she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection.

When you catch up with Seph/Jenova he is already at the northern crater with Black Materia. Consider that Aeris has to call Holy ASAP (which she ultimately does, but Sephiroth then contains it at the Planet's core). She's short on time. Finally, and most importantly, she should have convinced the group that
A: ditching Cloud's leadership was necessary (sort of easy, at that point, but not guaranteed)
and
B: summoning a spell that could potentially kill many or every human being was a good solution (not easy at all)
All while, I remark, she was pretty short on time. And consider that the only member in the party showing more connection with Aeris than others is Yuffie, which is sort of unreliable, and maybe RedXIII; Yuffie, like Cid and Caith Sith, cares a lot about worldly matters and would hardly play along with a plan that involves Holy. Though that is up to debate since in the end the party is convinced that Holy is necessary (that is, though, after Meteor proves indestructible), so yeah, maybe she could have spilled the beans. In the end, though, I'm not sure it would've changed that much.

I honestly suspect you didn't pay attention to the story in some steps the story takes.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes.

Sure thing. As long as these themes don't contradict themselves. Many of the themes of FF7 are straight-up broken by what was presented in chap18. And besides, it also matters that you know how to handle these new themes (destiny, fate) and they're handed poorly. I'm not voicing my mere opinion here, though. I could write a demonstration, easily. But since it's a bit long, I'll put it in a following post and in a block, you may jump it if you're not interested.




It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2.

Probably not, no. But just saying "relax, it's not like it will be all like chap18!" speaks enough of chap18 actual quality compared to the rest of the content.

Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not.

Suddenly removed, no; put at risk, yes. See the spoiler blocks in the following post if you're interested.

It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

Once again, saying "relax! Zack is alive, but there's a chance he'll die regardless!" is a good signal of how good of a choice is to make some deaths who where definitive and certain (Zack, Biggs, Jessie, etc) as temporary and modifiable events. You're basically saying that you're happy knowing (or rather, believing) that they'll get back on-track, and yet going off track was good still. I don't get this logic.

And it's terribly meta-narrative too. It assumes that only those who played the original FF7 will play the remake, so certain events can carry their weight only if made uncertain. But for new players, what's the meaning of the Zack scene? None.

Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.

A story can be very mature even involving resurrections, or time travel, or timelines. The point is what you do with it. Childish narrative is childish when it doesn't take responsability, and writes only what makes the writer or the reader or both the happiest, without any regard for the premises, rules and themes of the story. I'd certainly have been happier as a 11 year old if Aeris just came back at the end of the game, but she didn't. And that made the story more meaningful and good. Making me "happier" back then would have been childish.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-09 16:37:11 by IlMomo86 »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #277 on: 2020-05-09 16:28:59 »
FF7 themes: 1.acceptance 2.loss 3.ecology 4.consumism/fake news 5.cosmic horror&psychology (aka: Sephiroth)
FF7R themes: 1.destiny 2.freedom

For all the FF7 themes the whispers-subplot changes do more harm than good.

For the FF7R themes the whispers-subplot is handled poorly.


FF7 themes:
Spoiler: show

1. acceptance
Destiny and fate are hardly suited for a protagonist that is the entire opposite of a chosen hero. Cloud is such an amazing protagonist because he is weak, petty, unstable, and even submissive. He is presented as a somewhat cool jerk but then revealed to be a weakling, an impostor and pretty much a serf to evil, which makes his initial pretended coolness even more upsetting. He rises up from that through humility, sincerity, acceptance, friendship and effort. Proposing him as someone chosen by the Planet's planned Destiny, a fated hero to face with Sephiroth  on equal terms (and they even interact on equal terms, something that Sephiroth did never do in the original game) undermines all of it. Cloud was chosen by no one and became a hero through an hard path. The Planet had no "plan" for Cloud, in fact the only one who had a plan for Cloud is Sephiroth, a plan Cloud follows through until he accepts who he really is. Throw in that the Planet has a destiny for him and you diminish all of this.

2. loss
What's the point of an irreplaceable loss if there are multiple timelines? If you can fight destiny and negate death, even deaths that have already happened? The tragedy of death is that it is final and irreversible, a story about death that want a tiny bif of educational value should respect that. As the story is headed now, to convey a sense of loss you should make the point that timelines are multiple but certain events still happen no matter what and/or timelines cannot interact with each other. Meaning you'll have to contradict and nullify your own premises. Otherwise, the concept of loss is greatly devalued. See Rick&Morty, where alt. timelines carry the necessary consequence that the universe-travelers are emotionally detatched and depressed since nothing matters much. No surprises that everyone is saying: "keep calm! Aeris will still die somehow I'm sure!" which in and of itself shows that opening up the chance that she doesn't is already a pejorative change.

3. ecology
As I said, I think you missed a few story steps. The original game left open to interpretation if Holy killed humanity or not, or if didn't kill humanity but destroyed big metropolis like Midgar, Junon, etc. This was a beautiful counter-point to the human assumption that humanity=good; the characters mention this, saying that safety of the Planet is in itself something to fight for since without the Planet the demise of the human race is not a risk but a certainty, so they go along with Aeris plan. This was already devalued in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, who postulated that Holy did just some unspecified damage to Midgar and nothing more. RedXIII in the remake explicitly says that the "written" future (with the Midgar ruined and covered in vegetation) is one to avoid, meaning that summoning Holy and allowing it to defend the Planet is likely a "bad ending". Which strongly implies that the good ending is a far less controversial way to neutralize Meteor without bothering humans. Further implied by the fact that the whispers are the will of the Planet according to RedXIII, so beating the whispers means opposing the Planet. The provoking trope of: who's better, the Planet or Humans? Is gone.

4. consumism and fake news
that is arguably treated and shown better in the remake than in the original, and nothing about chap18 undervalues it directly, it just overshadows the whole theme of "we are a band of rogues in a world that thinks that Shinra is progress and comfort". Since speaking of a consumist society who willingly refuses to believe the truth in order to preserve their convenience is a very down-to-earth matter, and borders into politicaly commentary; inevitably "fighting fate incarnate" drives the plot away from it.

5. cosmic horror&psychology
the villain of FF7 was a succesful combination of different themes. Seph in himself is a de-humanized person created by Shinra to function as a propaganda tool and living weapon, so he is in a way the personification of humanity's sins. But he is also credible psychologically. His extreme loneliness, fragile identity, need for a mother's affection and founded sense of estrangement are all very sound reasons to do what he does. He essentially aspires to merge with every soul and become everybody, both punishing humanity for making a tool of him, erasing his identity problem and finding a "mother"; he is coherent, and thus well-written. Jenova, on the other hand, is a lovecraftian shapeshifting alien who merges with every body and psyche and then moves to the next planet, so it's perfectly coherent that she profits from having Sephiroth as a powerful vessel. The boundaries between Sephiroth and Jenova are unclear, as both share the same goal and view the other as a very crucial part of themselves or even as the necessary evolution of themselves. Both are coherent antagonists in their motivations and coherent one to the other. Good writing. This masterpiece relationship was already devalued by Nomura stating that Sephiroth's will has erased Jenova in an interview years later (which was contradicted anyway by Nomura himself via Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core etc)  and in chap18 is entirely thrown out of the window, by making Sephiroth show more interest in Cloud and Cloud's doing -with interactions that are a far cry from their original ones- than in merging with the lifestream. In the Sec5 Church sequence Sephiroth even states to Cloud in japanese "I am your tyrant" (in english: "I am your everything") something Sephiroth would never ever say in the original game, where he considers Cloud just another one of his pawns. In short, Sephiroth is re-elaborated as Cloud's personal nemesis and tormentor, or "Cloud's inner darkness" as Nomura stated when talking about their relationship in (remarkably) Kingdom Hearts. The disparity in interactions between the two were extremely disturbing in the original, as they also hinted to Cloud's lies, besides Sephiroth's trascendent nature. So in short yes, chap18 did much of a disservice to Sephiroth's character as it possibly could.


FF7R themes
Spoiler: show

1. Destiny
Postulating that the Planet has a "plan" specified for every individual is already a fragile narrative choice, but it becomes downright absurd if the "plan" has to be concretely executed by some invisibile specters. Destiny has a meaning as a concept when physical events and people actions (and thus, their will) are manipulated into a global plan, not if there is a thinking entity that orders some specters to contradict what actually happens. The whispers are not really overseeing fate, they are retconning reality. Which they could do if they either are outside of a self-consistent time (like the aliens in the movie Arrival) and therefore no one would have a prayer of harming them unless they intended, or they are ineffible, omniscient and all-powerful beings with their own agenda (like the Occuria of FF12) which would make THEM those who "defy destiny", actually, and wrecking their plans by beating the sh** out of them impossible, moreso with the limited power Cloud&co have at that point. They are entirely illogical no matter how you slice it. But assuming they were, and with a few slices shots and punches you can somehow "break" destiny, it makes sense if the road of destiny is opened AFTER the event, not before it; meaning you could get Aeris to live, but not Zack (or Biggs, etc); and if somehow it's broken even before it, why is it broken at some points and not others? Why the destiny of Zack's death should be rewritten and not that of Zack's birth? Or has beating a bunch of ghosts on a highway in Midgar opened a Schroedinger wide range of millions of parallel timelines including some where Zack or Cloud or Sephiroth or mankind was never born? Only extremely coherent and attentive writers can manage timeline altering, and the writing here is entirely incoherent to its own premises.

Now when you make your own fantasy laws in a fantasy story and you cannot follow them yourself, what is it? Bad writing.

2. Freedom: here it gets entirely meta-narrative. Because it's not the characters freedom that was obtained by beating the whispers, as the character are none the wiser than before; it was the writers. The characters are blindfolded about fate as they were in the original timeline where fate didn't even get into consideration. Therefore either 1)beating the whispers bear no consequence or 2)the characters start behaving in a fundamentally different way and making fundamentally different choices without rhyme or reason or 3)the characters must from now on follow the lead of someone who sees beyond destiny be it Seph, Aeris, Bugenhagen or whatever, to make use of the branching paths they opened, since they themselves have no clue.

Which means essentially means than in 1) and 2) it's flat-out bad writing as it disregards cause-effect, in case 3) they are less free now than they were before. In short, it's not Cloud&co's freedom you fought for in chap18, it's Nomura's, Kitase's etcetera.


Keep in mind that none of this is proof that part2 will suck. At all. It only proves how narratively misplaced and bad the changes of chap18 are and most part2's good will come from getting back on track, if they do.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-09 16:31:10 by IlMomo86 »

Devina

  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #278 on: 2020-05-09 19:00:57 »
Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting, and makes me feel like I'm having a new journey, rather than the same one I had before, just in HD. It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me. Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original. They don't spend more than 5-10 mins of this 40 hour game on this "original timeline" idea, so I see it as more as a bonus to those who've played the original, not a requirement that people must play the original first. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

And maybe I didn't always pay attention. It's a long game, and when people start talking about spells and ancient prophecies and what not, I zone out a bit.

Kefka

  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #279 on: 2020-05-10 06:56:28 »
Quote
It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Except for the fact that Square Enix has already done faithful remakes of FF games in the past (think FF3 and FF4 on the DS), and unlike this remake here, they stayed VERY faithful to their original stories. They merely tweaked a few gameplay mechanics, and added names and a slight glimpse of personality to the FF3 protagonists, but the stories were otherwise untouched. So it was only natural that many players expected a similar approach here, especially since the developers stated in interviews multiple times over the years that they only plan on EXPANDING the original story, but not ALTERING it altogether (and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is). Take for example this interview from March 2020, merely weeks before the release:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/

Also, I think most people aren't upset that there are changes to the story per se, but rather due to the fact that most of these changes were for the worse (that list is VERY long indeed), and in the whispers' case even pretty much openly declared the story of the original to be null and void now.

As others have already stated, there are certain steps and rules that authors must follow if they want their plot device to work properly. a) They have to set it up in advance by leaving hints all along the way before the plot twist happens to make sure that it doens't feel arbitrary or contrived, and b) they have to make sure that any new additional elements still fit within the overall world and lore of their respective story, or it will feel wierd and out of place to the audience. This latter point is especially important when dealing with a world and lore that have already been firmly established and well-defined for many years! In the whispers' case, they apparently did neither.

A plot device in a remake is simply not good when the possibilty of it's existence has never even been hinted at anywere in the original game (nor in any of the compilation material) and was only just made up for this remake, thereby creating the feeling that it came completely out of nowhere, for no logical reason.

A plot device is even worse when it clearly and openly contradicts elements from the original plot.

And a plot device is the worst imaginable when it even contradicts its very own reason for existence, in this case "keeping time/fate on track", because sometimes the whispers do the exact opposite of that: They attacked 7th Heaven until Jesse broke her ankle, making sure that she and Wedge wouldn't come along on the second bombing mission, when in the original timeline, they did come along. They saved Wedge from the plate drop by teleporting him away even though in the original timeline, he died there. Indeed it seems like Nomura has a hard time following even his own premises!

So the problem with the whispers was not only that it was a new and bad Deus-ex-machina-like plot device, but that it was also implemented in a very clumsy and poor way.

Quote
Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

I beg to differ, as that's exactly where they screwed up most of the time. Even without the whole time-travel-stuff, there's illogical, badly written scenes all over the place. The instances where their additions/changes were for the better are the exception rather than the rule. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two: visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls. Pretty much all other changes/additions they made were either unnecessary or even detrimental to the story (and as I said, that list is LONG).

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #280 on: 2020-05-10 09:30:12 »
@Devina

Ok, you don't always pay attention, but at least pay attention to what has been said right now.

Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

Clearly you find more credible storytelling in Aerith convincing someone that Cloud is compromised, Meteor will come and be absolutely unstoppable, and the best solution is using a weapon which acts on its own and could potentially decide to wipe humanity away, rather then Aerith just saying ok cannot rely on these humans and go off by herself and do my Cetra stuff. What can I say, it's a fine line, I'm not going to argue with you over it.


I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting,

I find FFXIII to be interesting and entertaining due to unique feel, amazing lore and stunning art direction, doesn't imply it is well-written or well-structured and I would certainly never argue with someone that it had been overall a disappointing game. You are entirely entitled to find entertaining or exciting whatever you wish as much as anyone, it doesn't speak for its quality though.


It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

No they shouldn't. People shouldn't want a remaster (which would be "the same journey, only on HD") but not a reboot either. A remake is a specific thing. It's allowed to change and add (and as I already said, most changes where good in my book) but not to warp the whole meaning and concept of the plot. Which it did. Technically though, since Sephiroth here clearly KNOWS what happened in the original game, as does Aerith, it's  not even a reboot and is a straight-up sequel. The farthest thing from a remake that was possible.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me.

Then you are basically saying I am correct. It's a narrative that requires you to know other narratives to be appreciated and, most importantly, at least understood. Bad writing again, with marketing in mind.


Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original.

There's nothing bad about confusing plots. The point being, contrivance should be there to enpower the plot's meaning and message, not to devalue it.
 
. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

No they're not. I've invested ten minutes of my time writing a post about it, and I don't see you contradicting anything, so as I said, the plot beats cannot be the same, and most importantly they cannot bear the same meaning anymore.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-10 09:53:55 by IlMomo86 »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #281 on: 2020-05-10 09:32:33 »
@Kefka:

(and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is).

Oh yeah, that too. I almost forgot, thanks. False advertising more or less.

visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls.

Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.

Kefka

  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #282 on: 2020-05-10 14:11:16 »
@Kefka:
Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.

Granted, most of the "normal" dialogue scenes between party members, Avalanche members and most NPCs were actually well done. I liked the Avalanche dynamic, Barret's "Mr. T style" (I've always imagined him like that), Aerith's flirting with Cloud, and the Turks were also pretty cool (I especially liked Reno).

The arena in Wall Market was interesting as well, fitting for the overall atmosphere of the location.

And I quite liked that you could sabotage Airbuster, thereby influencing the fight's difficutly depending on which components you select.

So you're right, I guess there were certainly several good and enjoyable moments, I'll admit that. There's still quite a few bad story changes they pulled (mostly towards later in the game) that tend to overshadow the good parts. You've already said yourself that the remake undermines and devalues several important themes and plot points from the original, and I whole-heartedly agree with you there.

Devina

  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #283 on: 2020-05-10 20:02:18 »
I would argue FF7R is a remake-reboot-sequel, all at once, not just one or the other. Who says remakes aren't allowed to change the meaning/concept of the plot? This is the definition on Wikipedia:

"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."

Imo, FF7R tells the same story for the most part so it counts as a remake. Is it getting into a murky territory a bit? Sure, but whatever.

Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I still think the major plot points (bombing of reactor, Cloud meeting Aerith, Cloud planning to bomb a second reactor, Cloud and Aerith being chased by Reno in the church, Cloud and Aerith trying to rescue Tifa in Corneo's mansion, the plate falling, rescuing Aerith at the Shinra Building, etc) are the same.

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #284 on: 2020-05-10 20:20:06 »
Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I view it as an opportunity for a Crisis Core sequel that would take place in an alternative timeline and could be an entirely new story, instead of following FF7/FF7 Remake.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-10 20:33:37 by -Ric- »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #285 on: 2020-05-10 20:44:27 »


"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."

Imo, FF7R tells the same story...

I don't mean no offense, but I can't understand under what contrived logic something can be a sequel of storyXYZ and still be storyXYZ. If Aerith, Sephiroth and RedXIII know the original timeline and will alter this timeline using that knowledge, this is literally, logically and undeniably the prosecution of the FF7 compilation.

The prosecution of a story can be a remake of that story as much as you can be a new hairstyle of your grandfather. Entirely illogical.

Did they state explicitly over and over again that it would've been a faithful remake? Yes. Is that lying? Yes. No murky territory here. None.

Now if you like being sold one product with the name of another, your own taste, good for you. It's reasonable to expect that some people don't. And the fact that literally 17/18th of this game is exactly what we asked and paid for is what makes us so carefree. Rest assured that if the next game will be all like chap18 you'll get a very different reaction.

Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I don't care at all what you have issues with or not. Your tastes matter to me as mine should matter to you, which is to say, nothing. I am discussing bad or good writing here, not tastes. You found FF7R ending to be terrific? Fantastic, I'm happy for you. No objections here. Was it good writing? No.

And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic. Was it necessary to make Zack survive in order for FF7R to be a better story? No.

You can argue that it will help keeping the hype up for the next chap, or it will help sell a new game about Zack? Will people be bothered by not knowing who Zack is or Zack is at this point well-known enough? None of this has any relevance. The only relevant thing is, it didn't do any good to the plot. You're not even trying to contradict this. You're just saying it won't do that much damage. I hope you're correct. It further proves my point though.

I still think the major plot points (...) are the same.

First,
you seem unable to discern the theme of a story from the events of a story. If I add just a single tiny line at the end of King Arthur's story and that single line happens to be:
"And Arthur reigned like a tyrant, drowning the country in tears and blood for decades until he passed away"
I have altered what the story is about. I have distorted the meaning, the theme of the arthurian epic. You may come here and say: "But it's just one line of text, there are literally THOUSANDS of lines who are still faithful to the original!" But you'd look like a fool. Because your objection holds no ground. The story is shattered no matter how you look at it.

Now, in FF7R case things are not as tragic, but repeating obsessively that most events are the same shows indifference to what the story is about.

Second,
I think you should take notice that the devs already released interviews, essentially confessing to the audience that they are monitoring our response to the ending to understand what the fans want.

Meaning, if those who want a brand new Nomura-style product will amount to the majority, the story will go more and more off-track, if not the story will play similar to the first game, with nearly everything faithfully reproduced until a disruptive element comes in.

This alone, admitted to-your-face by the devs, says enough about how sincerely authorial the new ending is.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-10 20:48:24 by IlMomo86 »

Devina

  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #286 on: 2020-05-10 22:28:46 »
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/

They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.

Quote
Was it good writing? No. And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic.

Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

The Black-caped Man

  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • The time........has come........!
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #287 on: 2020-05-11 10:59:59 »
What he meant is its objectively bad for ppl that have some kind of expectation and that know the old games and their standards in terms of plot devices. Just like Star Wars 7-9 the writing and plot additions are (sadly) good enough for the dumb mass which keeps square and other companies making profit and in the future lower the standards even more because who the hell cares as long as ppl buy it and the majority likes it (because they are the dumb mass).

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #288 on: 2020-05-11 17:50:54 »
They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.

"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".

Your review: "I cannot fathom why people don't understand how 3 minutes are mathemathically less than the remaining 117 thus the story didn't really change much. In fact it's only the 2,6% different. What's the fuss about?".


Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

Opinions are reasonings. If all were equal and undistinguishable there would be no point in even discussing them.

"I think racism is a-ok, socially productive and well founded within science".
"Well, actually it's not, you see, tons of literature can prove otherwise".
"I have my opinion and it entails that I entirely disregard all of that literature".
"I too have an opinion I thus I must respect that you also do".
"There you have it, you cannot touch my opinion".
"Correct, neither can you".
"Cool".
"Cool".

This whole "I have my opinion thus I cannot be contradicted" is the trademark for people who don't want to discuss. Which is fine mind you. Online discussions, though, require an ability to make a case and stand for it. If you cannot, chances are you're wrong. As easy as that.

And after pages and pages of literally a detailed description of when, how and why the additions don't go well with the story, which you don't bother to answer to let alone object or contradict, you're quite disrespectful too.

If the strongest points you can make is that any narrative change is equal to any other and any opinion is valid as any other, I suggest you stop bothering. I certainly will.

Izban

  • *
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #289 on: 2020-05-12 03:22:57 »
"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".

But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad, they are however contextually subjectively abhorrent to some while contextually so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.

Warning opinion,  I feel they handled it well enough to make the story the way they did so far, not knowing what they are gonna do next with it is kind of exciting, so long as they handle the next part well which I have no reason to doubt post remake

LeonhartGR

  • *
  • Posts: 2559
  • ~Whatever...~ Enjoy life!
    • View Profile
    • LeonhartGR Productions

Kefka

  • *
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #291 on: 2020-05-12 07:42:58 »
The problem is not just chapter 18, though. There have been bad or at least meaningless changes to the plot throughout the entire game, some of which deeply affect the overall tone of the narrative, or are detrimental to the story as a whole, or sometimes even outright ignore common sense. There have been good changes/additions as well, but the list of the bad changes/additions is arguably way longer even without mentioning chapter 18 at all. Here's some examples that disturbed me the most:

1: Shinra blowing up their own reactors – we've already talked about that one a few pages earlier. Not only is it retconning the original plot, it also makes ZERO sense for Shinra to do that. Imagine if you were the owner/manager of a factory, and there's a rival you want to get rid of. Now, competition has always been rather harsh in the business world, and sometimes certain companies go a little out of their way to damage a rival/enemy, even with illegal methods in some cases (happens in the real world as well). But would you really go as far as blowing up your own factory just so you could get back at your enemy? No, you wouldn't (I hope). After all, who in their right mind would nuke away their own income?

As already stated in earlier posts, Shinra has plenty of other options to deal with Avalanche. They've got the world's largest military at their disposal, they control politics and the media. A handful of amateur rebels is certainly no serious match for them, even though they made Avalanche bigger in the remake (but that's another story altogether). A few search-and-destroy-missions throughout the slums should do the trick. As for their plan to raise the people's patriotic spirit for another war with Wutai: if they wanted to fake some Avalanche bombings for that, they could've used targets of lesser importance. Administrative buildings for example, or maybe a train station... anything OTHER than a reactor! In fact, if they're striving for another war with Wutai, that'd be one more reason NOT to bomb their reactors. Surely no country would seriously consider crippling their own finances and economy on the eve of an important war, would they? Shinra has always been portrayed as evil and reckless in the original, but never as dumb, and nuking their own reactors is just that.

The point is that (imho) even in a fictional world and story, the various characters' behavior still has to be somewhat believable and comprehensible, like how people in the real world might behave if they found themselves in a similar situation. Believability is arguably the most important point when it comes to successful immersion into a fictional world. If the world's believability is lost due to a character's incomprehensible actions, the immersion breaks. Simple as that.

In addition, this plot change also sheds an entirely different light on the story in another aspect: In any conflict, it's usually difficult to claim that one side is purely good and the other is purely evil, as it all depends on different points of view. What some people call terrorists, others call freedom fighters. What some people practice as their religion, others call heresy. Some people say that abortion is murder, others say that it's the woman's right to choose her own fate (not Nomura's kind of fate, lol ;D). It's the same with Avalanche vs Shinra: The Shinra may be the bad guys (for the most part), but that doesn't automatically make Avalanche the good guys. The point from the original game was that Avalanche was doing the wrong things for the right reasons, but it also made clear that the end doesn't justify the means. Much later in the game, when Cait Sith/Reeve confronts them about it, both Barret and Tifa show remorse for their actions in the early game, admitting that what they did was wrong and “can never be forgiven.” The lesson here was that people can learn from their past mistakes, grow and evolve through them to find a new path in life, and maybe even try to redeem themselves through their actions now. The original game did a really good job at conveying that message. The remake, however, discards that thoughtfulness in favor of a much more simplistic black-and-white labeling, which (imho) robs the story of a certain layer of depth.

2: I actually liked the overall idea of visiting Jesse's parents. More background stories for the Avalanche members is certainly neat. And looting a Shinra warehouse... seems reasonable as well. Shinra probably holds a monopoly on all weapon types, so Avalanche would have to get their equipment by stealing from them. So yeah, this is something that I could actually picture Avalanche doing, that chapter is probably their best example of a meaningful expansion of the original plot, and I even give them probs for that.

But when it comes to the actual implementation of that idea, we get... Roche... not once, but twice... Who is this guy? Why is he always looking to pick a fight with someone? Is he just some random adrenaline junkie? We get no background information about him, his origins, his reasons, or whatever, all we get are some crazy over-the-top motorbike stunts, and after he's gone, he's never even mentioned again for the rest of the game. Not exactly the proper way to introduce a character, is it?

Now one might argue that Roche's character will eventually be explained in future episodes, but I think from what we saw it's kinda obvious that he's only in here as fan-service. They wanted someone to do motorbike duels with Cloud because someone at SE (insert name of your “favorite” writer here) thought it looked cool. To me, it simply was yet another immersion breaker. That dude has the word “obsolete” stamped in bold letters all across his forehead.

3: The Sector 7 plate drop. The battle at the pillar itself was actually fine and all, and it even featured a rare IMPROVEMENT over the original plot by showing Tseng and captured Aerith over a monitor rather than in a helicopter on site. That one always bugged me a little bit in the original, Tseng's chopper was still there when the bomb at the pillar exploded, and some of the debris actually got dangerously close, lol! So the approach from the remake with Tseng contacting them from a safe distance seems more reasonable indeed.

So what am I criticizing here? Well, the whole scenario before, during, and after the drop, actually. It's no secret that SE was desperately trying to stretch the game at every possible (or impossible) opportunity, otherwise they wouldn't have managed to make Midgar 40 hours long. But the whole plate drop chapter was definitely the wrong place for that. Ever since Don Corneo revealed Shinra's plan, the party knew that they didn't have any time to lose, yet somehow they manage to waste valuable time at several occasions:

They chat around with various ghosts in the train graveyard as if they were just taking a relaxing walk in the park...  After defeating Eligor, they just dilly-dally there staring at the beautiful sight of the souls that were freed, seemingly forgetting that they have something important to do... Really, SHOULDN'T THEY BE IN A HURRY??? And after reaching the slums, Aerith is supposed to go fetch Marlene, and FAST, right? Well, except she's anything but fast. When she warns Tifa's landlady and her friends about the impending plate drop, she again just stands there and has a nice little chat with them... upon hearing the news of the imminent danger, they should run for their lives immediately, right? Except, they don't... they just stand there and dilly-dally some more before finally agreeing on an evacuation... Honestly, is this realistic, believable behavior here? No. A believable, realistic scenario would've been Aerith simply running past them while shouting out loud “The plate's about to drop! Get out of this sector! Run for your lives, RUN!!!” She shouldn't have stopped even for a moment! Later on, she rescues another little girl, which is fine and all, except that it's one of those instances where the developers force the player to WALK SLOWLY! And Aerith even comforts the girl by telling her that there's “no need to rush”. Like, seriously? THE GODDAMN PLATE IS COMING DOWN ANY MOMENT, FOR GOD'S SAKE!! If this is no time to rush, then when is it? Really, the game's padding feels much more detrimental here than in any other chapter. The developers must've been truly desperate when they stall for time even in a scenario where TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!

Finally, the whole plate drop itself is undermined by the fact that Biggs, Wedge and most slum residents survive due to a successful evacuation. Here I cannot help but wonder: what was their reasoning behind this? Are they really that afraid to depict death in a video game that they think they have to go out of their way and completely rewrite parts of the story? In the original, Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse died here, along with pretty much everyone else in the slums. Wham! Now THAT is how you deliver a shock to the audience. See, the main reason why I liked the idea of fleshing out the Avalanche members and giving them more background was that their eventual death would feel that much more devastating then. Only that doesn't happen, except for maybe Jesse (and even in that case we can't be too sure, maybe SE miraculously brings her back in the next episode, who knows?). Biggs is still alive, so his long dramatic dying speech at the pillar was all for naught, and feels obsolete in retrospect. Same with Wedge. As a result, it's not surprising that the plate drop in the remake didn't have nearly the same impact as in the original. They may show you the destroyed sector later on, sure... but at the same time they tell you that most people made it out alive anyway, so it never feels like the catastrophe which the original game presented.

All my remaining points cover events in the Shinra headquarters. Boy, what a mind-bendingly stupid mess this whole chapter was, but one thing after another:

4: So Mayor Domino is now a secret Avalanche member operating directly from the Shinra headquarters, right under their noses without them realizing it? Yeah right... Another instance of SE depicting Shinra as downright dumb. I'm gonna quote the remake's Reno on this one: “If you're gonna bullshit me, at least try to make it believable!”

5: Hojo blurting out that Cloud wasn't a Soldier... just like that... Now let that sink in for a moment and think about how this affects one of the most important plotlines of the original:

A LARGE portion of the game's story revolves around unraveling Cloud's past and who he is, why his memory seems to be fuzzy and inconsistent from time to time, and what really happened five years ago. The original game did a wonderful job at successfully deceiving the player for most of the game about Cloud's identity, and it only worked so well because the players simply accepted Cloud's version of the Nibelheim incident which he tells at Kalm. And why wouldn't they, as there's no reason to distrust the main character at this point, so it is taken as fact until well into disc 2. Cloud having been a Soldier was NEVER pulled into question until both Sephiroth and Hojo claim at the Northern Crater that Cloud's just another Sephiroth clone, and that's the point where the player starts to doubt. The big reveal which clears up everything isn't made until you're about two-thirds into the game, and it was one of the most brilliantly executed plot twists ever precisely BECAUSE the player was left in the dark and led down a wrong path for so long. In the remake, this whole deception obviously won't work anymore now. Rather, new players will now question Cloud's version of the Nibelheim events from the get-go, since they've already been told that Cloud wasn't a Soldier right at the story's beginning.

Of all the violations to the original plot that they pulled in this remake, this one has probably got to be the most serious. The game's biggest plot twist – one of the most famous in JRPG history – ruined in one single sentence... Wow... just... wow...

6: Hojo again. This time, he locks the party in his lab and tells them that he'll only let them out if they help him to collect “valuable combat data” by fighting some of his stuff... Come on, do I really have to elaborate on why this is garbage? On to the next one.

7: President Shinra's death scene. That one definitely stood out as the pinnacle of bad writing. Why is President Shinra hanging there? Was it Sephiroth? If so, why didn't he finish him off right away? When Barret and President Shinra go inside, why are the others not following them? Like what are they doing, gazing at the stars for several minutes without realizing what's going on inside, just a couple meters away from them? Why would President Shinra even bother threatening Barret when he knows that other Avalanche members were waiting behind him? Several units of his troops already failed at taking them down, so what are the chances that this middle-aged man without combat experience could accomplish that on his own? And why isn't Barret simply aiming back? Machine-gun beats colt any day.

Honestly, not a single character in this entire scene acts in a comprehensive way. Remember what I said about the importance of believable behavior even for fictional worlds? Well in this scene here, any and all believability goes completely down the drain.

In this case that's especially sad because this particular scene - and much of the Shinra headquarter before it - was a vital part of Sephiroth's introduction in the original. Most of the Midgar portion was dedicated to depicting Shinra as this seemingly insurmountable Titan that Avalanche cannot seem to overcome, no matter how hard they tried. After having half of their members killed in the plate drop, it ends with them being thrown in jail in the Shinra headquarters, unable to do anything but wait for their likely execution. Had they not received outside help from a so-far unknown third player, their little adventure would've ended right then and there. Enter Sephiroth... and all of a sudden Shinra doesn't look so unbeatable anymore.

The fact that they changed the entire Shinra building scenario completely in the remake (and omitted both the prison part and the bloodbath part) leads me to believe that Nomura and his fellow writers failed to understand the importance of this scene for Sephiroth's character building, even though he's never actually shown there in the original. So they think President Shinra's death scene is better in the remake because now you actually see the stabbing? Think again, because the point of this scene in the original was not to show to the player that President Shinra was dead. It was to make the player aware of the appearance of a new villain, one that even Shinra is helpless against, thus ushering in a new chapter in the narrative. While Shinra still sticks around as an enemy for most of the game, the role of the true threat has now clearly passed on to someone else.

In the remake, though, this entire message fails due to several bad decisions made previously: The plate drop didn't hit Avalanche as hard as in the original because Biggs and Wedge survived, the party never gets jailed, they make it through the entire building on their own without anyone else's help (no, Wedge's short appearance doesn't really help anyone), and in the end, they have the company leader in their hands. President Shinra is at their mercy now (quite the opposite tone of what the original game was trying to convey here). As a consequence, the president's death doesn't feel nearly as shocking anymore because he pretty much was already beaten before that.

8: This next one is actually part of the scene above. Barret getting killed and then revived immediately afterwards because “this death was not the one destined for him”. Don't even get me started on this... Nomura may call it a clever, unexpected plot twist. I call it a brain fart. 'Nuff said.

9: Boss battle against Jenova: way too early, with absolutely no context given. Who is this creature? What does it want? Why is Sephiroth carrying it around? Why do we have to fight it? The game never even bothers to explain anything about her, it simply assumes that the player already knows that from the original game. Didn't the developers claim that this remake was for both old fans and newcomers alike? Please explain to me how a newcomer who hasn't played FF7 before is supposed to make any sense of this boss battle.

The original once again handled this a whole lot better by describing Jenova's origins and background in detail first: we learn that she's a 2000 year-old Cetra discovered by Shinra's scientists, and that her genes were prenatally infused into Sephiroth, making her his “mother” in a metaphorical sense. Granted, some of that information turns out to be wrong later (her being an alien rather than an ancient), but that's beside the point. What matters is that by the time the first Jenova battle occurs, the player immediately knows that this battle is an important one because of all the information he received about her before. But in the remake they just throw you into battle with her without further ado. A newcomer can only think: “Big scary mutant thingy, it's probably evil, so we gotta kill it.” Good writers don't introduce important figures in such a way.

10: Chadley. Yes, it's Hojo's assistant that wants you to keep fighting in a simulator for some odd reason. And he reveals that reason after finishing the toughest optional boss in the simulator. And boy, what a reason this is: so Chadley is actually not a human, but an android, but his AI somehow developed a conscience (yes, like Skynet from Terminator, lol!) and now he wants to break free from Hojo's control. And watching humans battle in the simulator apparently allows him to rewrite his AI to accomplish just that...

The first time I watched this, I simply fell out of my chair laughing as I couldn't believe that level of nonsense, lol! ;D

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #292 on: 2020-05-12 12:12:58 »
@Kefka:

Good heavens, finally a decent discussion. Well, I agree and disagree with some points there. Let me know what you think.
Spoiler: show

1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.

2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.

3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.

4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.

5. Jessie: yes, a good expansion. Not the only one though. I think that the Trio in the Wall Market sequence, along with Beautiful Bro Jules and a few other touches in that chapter were great stuff. It took the progressive tone of the story of 1997 (a game that had the audacity of showing a trans, a tailor with a cross-dressing passion, homosexuality and prostitution) and took it to 2020 with a thoughtful approach without becoming a boring political commentary but rather a silly and goofy section, as it was meant to be originally. Kazushige Nojima at its very best writing here. Characters in the slums like Floria and Mireille also served their purpose decently.

6. Roche: mostly agree. I appreciate the choice of showing actually a SOLDIER that gets called by name, since in the original game they were described as this super-elite Foxhound style army where not even one of them had any significance, power or ever the courtesy of a name. And I would agree with the writers that, if you had to insert any SOLDIER character it shouldn't be that much important, so the cocktail they proposed (a stereotypical "bloodknight" archetype with a pretended rivalry as comedic relief) is a good choice, in my book. It was so poorly executed, though, that it ends up as quite forgettable. In italian (dunno in english) he says: "It's been a while since I landed my feet on ground".... good heavens, what a stupid quote. Memes here in Italy about Roche having a shower and taking a dump while on his motorbike abounds.

7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.

8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience. But on to the hardest of points...

9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.

10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way  to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.

11. Barret revived: unjustifiable.

12. Hojo and his "combat data": not a serious offense as others, but still pretty dumb. One or two lines of different dialogue would've removed the problem, really.

13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.

14. Chadley: ...whatever. What a dumb idea.

15. The bloodbath: here I do more than agree with you. Actually you made me remember how I felt as a kid and figure better why I was so disappointed. Shinra seemed unstoppable until that moment, and here comes in Sephiroth, making Shinra seem like powerless clerks in suit facing an ubermensch. Here Sephiroth is depicted by the n.1 threat since the beginning, devaluing the coup-de-theatre at its core.

16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-12 12:41:04 by IlMomo86 »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #293 on: 2020-05-12 12:34:39 »
But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad,

Sure, you are right. The "Cap is a rapist" example was an hyperbole meant to show that just because 97% of a work is the same, it doesn't mean that 3% can't do any serious damage. Not every plot change is equivalent to another, that was my point.

so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.

Actually there is a very long list of reasons to why it's very hard to cram into FF7 timelines, resurrections, fate and multiple Sephiroth's appearances without ruining the story. I've written one myself a few posts ago.  But let's assume you are correct, I still don't understand your logic.

FF7's plot was amazing. We all agree about that I think. Now you're telling me: well, they changed it, and as of now it could still play out as amazing, or end up being crap. We cannot know for sure.

Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?

The only logical answer would be, I know (read: think) that it will surely surpass the original. Wouldn't risk it otherwise. Which means that my basic goal is to subistitute the original with the new. Because I don't have that much high esteem for the original.

So in order to be a good change, it has to be:
1) it goes entirely on a different route and therefore it's amazing -------> implies the original wasn't that good
2) it goes "back on track" and plays as the original ------> implies the changes were bad
3) it keeps this route of being "mostly like the original" but with a disruptive subplot that yet somehow serves the original plot ----> a lot of effort for a mediocre result

So either one thinks the plot of FF7 is not all that much, or it's probably going to be at least slightly worse than the original.

which I have no reason to doubt post remake

Possibly. Since there's so much good stuff in this remake, it's hard to think they will entirely screw it all up. The following chapter will probably be another amazing game. There are at least three chapters though (Nomura said he wanted to do many) and this doesn't bode well. The fact that by the interviews Nomura and Kitase seem in disagree about how to prosecute the project makes me worried as well.

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #294 on: 2020-05-12 14:14:20 »
Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?

Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.

Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game, but it's not even the best Final Fantasy game that is out. There's a lot about the plot that is complete nonsense. This is not towards you directly, or anyone in particular, just in general, but please stop acting as if the original game was perfect and any change to it is automatically negative.

I, for one, am happy that I'm actually not sure what part 2 will bring. It's actually exciting. Also, all criticisms of the ending of part 1, in my opinion, are unwarranted UNTIL we see where the ending leads. If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok. Just remember, different doesn't automatically make it bad, nor good. As of right now, it's a mystery. As I've said before, part 2 will either make the remake great or absolutely kill it.

We will see.

I prefer they take the risk and actually deliver something fresh, exciting and surprising to me than having made the exact same game with no plot changes. I don't need the same game, I already have it, I've already been playing it for over 20 years. Ps1, PC, Steam, Ps4, Nintendo Switch and even the shit Android version. I got them all and I've played them all, multiple times. The exact same plot with new graphics would mean fern all to me. Whenever I want to experience the original plot again, I'll just pick one of the many versions I own and done.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-12 14:48:14 by -Ric- »

gjoerulv

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
  • me
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #295 on: 2020-05-12 15:50:29 »
Kefka pretty much nailed my thoughts on those scenes. I would sum it up with style over substance. The immediate scene is more important than consistency and logic. It's all over the place in main stream storytelling. Fuck the overall context, fuck believability, fuck consistency, fuck logic, as long as we get to show off how good of a character Aerith is, searching for those kids and stuff. Yeah.... Same in Barret's scene with the president. These examples are probably some of the worst, but they are spread out pretty much all over the game. Again, not that it didn't exist before, and I think this quote is a good example to highlight style over substance in both OG and R:

3: The Sector 7 plate drop. The battle at the pillar itself was actually fine and all, and it even featured a rare IMPROVEMENT over the original plot by showing Tseng and captured Aerith over a monitor rather than in a helicopter on site. That one always bugged me a little bit in the original, Tseng's chopper was still there when the bomb at the pillar exploded, and some of the debris actually got dangerously close, lol! So the approach from the remake with Tseng contacting them from a safe distance seems more reasonable indeed.

Does it make sense though? I agree it makes logistically sense (it didn't at all in the original). It makes sense if Tseng's reasoning for the broadcast is it to let Aerith communicate with the party about Marlene. Or if he has some sort of sadistic pleasure in letting them know they'll die. Or perhaps he thinks he can score with Aerith if she let her talk to her friends before he murders them?
I would say the 2 latter makes the """"most"""" sense. The problem, imo is, again, the art direction. Mustache twirling villainy like this is too juvenile and out of place here.
The original was also stupid, style over substance, about how Tseng lets Aerith talk to them, and how he was even there. And the helicopter part. Though, I guess they (Reno, Tseng) used that helicopter to escape in the original as well. Reno and Rude also escape by helicopter in the remake so there is that... Hard to see any other way to escape within the timeframe.

This part of the scene serves 3 purposes. To mention Marlene, to mention the ancient's and to know Aerith is captured. Caught that peeps? Please ignore how Barret just missed Rude with his gunarm while Rude runned in straight line away from him. All that action looked cool right?

Please don't tell me Tseng knew they would survive all along, and allowed Aerith to talk to them because he has a crush on her... This would be a perfect example of a writer retconning a scene when they notice they f****d up and there is no room to back peddle.

Also, if Shinra's security is this tight (fancy cameras and shit), why would Jessie use her father's card and put all of them in danger; her family, neighborhood, friends and Avalanche. Could it be because Cloud needs to go to her father's room and learn more about Jessie?  :o We needed that scene this much, huh?

The Black-caped Man

  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • The time........has come........!
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #296 on: 2020-05-12 17:19:22 »
Quote
Kefka pretty much nailed my thoughts on those scenes.

In combination with what was said in this entire thread now, there is really not much to add. If ppl still like it, go ahead. But we don't for the reasons mentioned.

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #297 on: 2020-05-12 17:37:25 »
Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.

Most restaurant in Italy keep the same menu actually. Incidentally, not me. I do a major overhaul of the recipes every week.

Innovation is good, that's why I appreciated most of the changes in FF7R.

Point is -I repeat over and over- not every change is equal to another. And if a change I decide for is contested, my answer won't be: "well, there's a chance that it doesn't suck". Change have to be improvement, not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.

If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.

Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game,

Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No. Is it more contrived? Yes. Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse, but you trust that it will turn out good in the future. Let's hope you are correct. At this point in time, it's just worse.



If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.

You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful. The automated content of such replies make me wonder if you reply without bothering to read, or if you simply know that you couldn't object. This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is, and we're making our points, which you pretend to ingnore. The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-12 17:42:44 by IlMomo86 »

-Ric-

  • *
  • Posts: 321
  • .
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #298 on: 2020-05-12 18:26:29 »
Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No.

Completely subjective.

Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse

Again, completely subjective.

You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful.

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is.

Again, subjective... Get it in your head, bad to you doesn't mean bad to everyone else.

not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.

There's at least one, very likely 2 unreleased games. Of course there is uncertainty about what's to come. lol. You, me or anyone else have no idea where the plot is heading. You're referring to the ending as "craptacular" when you have no idea what the goal of it is or where it leads to. It's incomplete. You know what, you might even be right. Part 2 might prove you absolutely right, might prove that the ending and direction they took is stupid. And if it is, I will agree with you. What I'm saying is, right now, May 13th, you have absolutely no idea if it was a good decision or not, if it's going to turn out to be good or not. You will find out when the rest of us do.

The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.

You are judging it entirely based on the fact that it's different than the original, yet you claim that it has nothing to do with purism. If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.

If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.

What this guy tried to say is absolutely correct.

People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

There's absolutely no objectivity in anything you've said. You've started your opinion. Which surely a lot of people will agree with and surely a lot of people will disagree with. Since you like your food examples so much, entertainment media is similar to food in the sense that not everything is for everyone. Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?
« Last Edit: 2020-05-12 18:33:56 by -Ric- »

IlMomo86

  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
« Reply #299 on: 2020-05-12 19:52:04 »
Completely subjective.

I think you confound "objective" with "crystal clear undeniable 100% certain truth" which is something that doesn't exist in this world. I am saying is "objective" because we all agree with the premises, which bear the conclusion. Which makes it not my opinion.

Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better). These premises are accepted by both of us? Yes. Conclusion: at the point in time we are now, it wasn't an improvement, at best it will be in the future. This is "objective" insomuch as if you agree on the premises, you should agree on the conclusion. It's called logic.

Of course demonstrating that "it's not better" is different from demonstrating that "it's worse". A different matter altogether. Also logic.


Again, completely subjective.

Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

Again, an opinion is a reasoning. It's not sacred just because it is an opinion, otherwise people would and could communicate just crude facts.

Example of an opinion that I stated and that no one of you bother contradicting:
-premise A: FF7 as a good protagonist
-follow up to A: the protagonist is good because (among other reasons) he's ill-equipped to deal with the obstacles he faces, AKA he's not a "chosen" protagonist
-premise B: the concept of fate means someone is destined to succeed, thus functionally well-equipped to overcome
-conclusion: introducing FATE diminishes the protagonist's impact

This is "objective" in the meaning that the connection is logical and verifiable. The fact that it's objective doesn't mean that it is a religious dogma though. For instance you could object that Cloud is not a good protagonist, or that he works fine as a chosen one, etcetera.

That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.

If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material. A goodbye sequence as emotional as Biggs', following with the "hooo, he survived!" reveal, is a dead giveaway of low quality. Since I think that most of the changes will be for the best, I'm still intentioned to buy the next. It's pretty self-evident that I am anything but a purist, it's just that you don't know any better objection than this one.

If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.

By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.

Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?

See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.