Post by: RC on 2001-01-15 23:59:00
1.What's the point of Squall visiting the old stone house and talk to Edea.
2.How come Edea didn't know who Squall was?
3.After talking to Edea, Edea said that the future squall shouldn't be there and squall left. That mean the past has changed, but if the past has changed, basically Ultimecia didn't exist. If she doesn't exist...Why would Irvine, Selphie, and all of them get together at a party again? How do they meet?
4.Why did Squall see weird events around Rinoa? What's the point of it?
I hope someone can answer these for me. Thanks.
Post by: Skillster/RedSarg99 on 2001-01-16 03:15:00
1. squall didnt remember, he just arrived there by chance/destiny, his arrival in the past triggered the making of seed by edea.
2. she did relise who it was, thats why she told him to leave-said something about only one squall should be here.
3.that ultimecia was from the future, she hadnt died yet (she had to pass on her powers to die properly) so edea took her powers, and became a sorceress. the guys party because they are in their time (i think) and the world is saved from ultimecia.
4. the point was that he had forgotten who rinoa was, and forgot his promise to rinoa (about going to the flower fields) so thats why rinoa appeard to vanish from squalls memory...
Post by: Caddberry on 2001-01-16 09:24:00
Post by: Sukaeto on 2001-01-17 03:32:00
At the end, you find out 'that sorceress' was Ultimecia.
Post by: jose on 2001-01-17 16:54:00
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-01-17 06:15:00
......I'm probably gonna spell the names wrong........
To put it short....Squall lost hope. He kept on seeing Rinoa's death.....You have to understand that the group was traveling through time. They found the castle because they were all lead to it...and their bond to each other kept them from being absorbed/disappearing....After they defeated the Sorceress, they had to focus on their own timeline. Everyone didn't have a problem doing this....except for Squall. He was troubled with Ellone's disappearance when he was young....and he went to that timeline instead.....Apparently the Sorceress was following, Squall through the time travel. Edea recieves the dying Sorceress'powers, and becomes one of the most powerful Sorceress of that timeline, the only other equal would be Adel. Perhapse this is why Ultimecia could munipulate Edea and later Rinoa, so easily....her powers flowed through both of them....a loop of sorts...If Ultimecia's powers stayed in the future...none of this would have happened. I know what your thinging....Adel was controlled by Ultimecia, too. Well, I don't think she really was. I think Adel knew exactly what was going on. whereas Edea and Rinoa had no idea that they were being controlled. Besides, Adel wouldn't have been released if Edea and Rinoa weren't under Ultimecia's control, first.
Edea tell Squall that he doesn't belong in this timeframe and sends him back to the, "end of time" Rinoa is a sorceress......she uses a magical feather....a feather of Angels.... Ok...Ok... maybe that wasn't so short.....I just could stop typing...... BTW: Edea was a sorceress before Ultimecia gave-up her powers....it's even clauseable to say that Edea took Ultimecia's powers...Edea had received the powers of a sorceress when she was young....she's says this in the game. I have a feeling that because of this small amount of power that was given to her, when she was young. Edea was able to take Ultimecia's powers away from her whether Ultimecia willed it or not. But this isn't supported in the game...it's just a conclusion I came up with...... [This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited January 18, 2001).]
Post by: Caddberry on 2001-01-17 09:45:00
Post by: RC on 2001-01-17 09:47:00
when squall travels back to his childhood to see Edea, Ultimecia passes her powers to Edea. But then Ultimecia is dead. So the past has changed. Later squall gets back to his own timeline. But the problem is the past has already changed, Ultimecia is dead, not in the future anymore. Why would all of them (squall, irvine, rinoa, selphie) all have a party together? After all, it is all the problems caused by Ultimecia that brought them all together (especially Rinoa and squall). If the past has changed, then how the heck do they all meet together again? It doesn't make sense to me.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-01-17 10:56:00
When Squall's World (Timeline) reaches Ultimecia's World (Timeline), without any time traveling, through Normal passing of time, Ultimecia will do exactly the same thing. It's almost as if all forms of time are moving along at the same time. If you focus on Squall's Timeline, Ultimecia is born in the future and dies in the past. It's a time loop. After Squall defeats Ultimecia, in her timeline... I suggest you play the game, "The Longest Journey". It gives a lot of insight to this type of thinking. And does a very good job of it too. Very good Story in that game. Don't think to hard about time travel and it's consequences.....answering the meaning of life would be easier. Too many theories...and the only proof is our imaginations. Think about, Dragon Ball Z's Android sega. Lots of Sci-Fi shows do consequences theory...A Pardox....Kill your grandfather and you will cease to exist....change the past and you won't remember you real past, only the alternative one. There is a very fine line between fate and a pardox.....I think FF8 is more about fate. You can't change fate no matter what you do. It was Squalls fate to kill Ultimecia, and Edea's fate to absorb Ultimecia's powers. The circle had to be completed. [This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited January 18, 2001).]
(I know time was really compressed, but it's easier, for me, to explaining it this way.)
Post by: Ged on 2001-01-17 23:42:00
2. When?
3. Awwww... You didn't pay attention playing the game... Well.. Ultimecia is from the future, and Edea from the past. Squall & others are in the 'middle', and there is a time compression that puts the past, present and future togheter. When they kill Ultimecia (as I think) the results of ze time kompression are going backwards (or sumthin)...
4. He CAN'T remember who she is.. Again, remember the begining!
It is not HIS fault he ended up there..Ultimecia is the future.. She is 'not yet'..
Why they meet? The time kompression ends?
Post by: Anonymous on 2001-01-18 05:48:00
BTW, anyone know when FF9 PC is coming out? Or is it ever going to be made?
Post by: Srethron Askvelhtnod on 2001-01-18 06:49:00
Post by: Skillster/RedSarg99 on 2001-01-20 16:45:00
that square soft team has lost its appetite.
or is it the fact that the style may not attract the regular PC gamer?
check this link: http://squaregamer.com/news/items/0,0411,180321,00.shtml
tells you everything, ff9 may not exist on the PC :(
Post by: Sukaeto on 2001-01-20 21:58:00
Post by: Black Widow on 2001-04-02 18:59:00
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-03 00:06:00
What some people don't realise is that it is not because Edea absorbed Ultimecia's powers that she became a pawn of Ultimecia. The true reason is the Ellone Machine... that is, Ultimecia sent herself back in time in much the same way Squall was sent back into Laguna. This is the exact reason why Squall gets to see Ultimecia when Ellone sends him into Rinoa while they're in space.
Overall, if you think too much about FF8, it's a depressing turn of events; everything is prophesised. You can't change the past... but because of that... you can't change the future either. All you can do is live.
Don't think about that too much though. It *is* a depressing fact, but humans have shown great capacity to ignore the horrible truth and cling to their own securities. That's how most people survive.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-04 06:40:00
And there is no paradox if there is no future. We are following Squalls Timeline, not Ultimecia's. Ultimecia's Timeline has the parodox.......but to Squall's there is no future....no fate after Ultimecia's defeat....everything is a new beginning, from there on forth....the past is still the past and can't be changed.
(You can really warp the Time Machine/paradox, Theories anyway you like.... :) There is no way to prove any of them...and uhh, if this conflicts with my old post, you'll have to forgive me...I wrote that quite some time ago...I doubt that it's in conflict, though. Back to the Future III, anyone?)
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 04, 2001).]
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-04 07:08:00
Why? Ultimecia started a lot of this by time travelling to *HER* past. A past that she cannot change. Thus, nothing she does is going to make a difference.
From that, we also extrapolate that nothing Squall does is going to make a difference either.
There is no paradox. Ultimecia is born, lives, and dies with no problems. We can't even be sure that Ultimecia's power is in an eternal loop, because it's possible that Ultimecia never inherits the power Edea gave to Rinoa who will give to the sorceress to come after her.
Of course, this does mean that between Squall's timeline and Ultimecia's timeline we likely have double the Sorceress power floating about, but that's more logical than a power that has no origin but itself.
Really, there's actually very few things that loop in FF8. The main thing that loops eternally is the idea of SeeD. That's an idea that fate took care of... it *HAS* no origin. There is no before to it.
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-04 08:08:00
Post by: Skillster/RedSarg99 on 2001-04-04 10:49:00
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-04 13:34:00
OK...lets begin the argument (these are fun)
If you don't believe in fate (I don't) Then the present is unwritten...The future hasn't happened yet, so it is always changing. We are following Squall's Timeline. Since Ultimecia, from the future, is jacking around with Squall's timeline, Squall's timeline is following the rules of fate (as long as a future is written Squall's present is truly the past. (That could be why Squall/Ellone can't change his/her past.) After Squall defeats Ultimecia, the future becomes unwritten. Squall's timeline now becomes the present....and the future is finally an unknown factor.
Think about the series movie, "Back to the Future" In the last chapter there was no text on the newspaper, because the future became unwritten. After Mcfly chose not to drag race that other car, he broke the circle of fate.
There were several small paradoxs in these movies....but lets not focus on that part....If a paradox really happened Mcfly wouldn't never had remember anything that happend before the paradox and that would mean anything that the 3 movies showed us would be unknown to Mcfly. The movie really didn't follow the paradox rule. It would have sucked as a movie if they followed the paradox rule, anyway. I'm sure that's why Square choice to make Squal's past in FF8 focus on the rules of fate. Less chance of Paradox errors. FF8 is about fate....only after Ultimecia's ultimate defeat is the circle of fate broken.
If you go in the past and kill your grandfather....you should thus cease to exist...and your grandfathers timeline will become the new present, thus sealing his death and any of his family tree's death from then on forth.....
Is that deep enough for ya?
See, FF8 DOES have a happy ending.
And nope; don't remember any scene with Ultimecia during the Space sequence (are you thinking of Adel, maybe?)....I'm replaying the game right now (have to see the cut scenes on my new 1.2 Athlon; they look pretty cool without all the sound studdering and frame drops that my P200mmx had)...currently just began on 2nd disk.....probably be at the space scene in a few weeks. I really don't remember seeing Ultimecia before the ending (end of Disk 4) unless you count the part where Rinoa becomes unconscience...but even then it's just a flash of light. I do remember Squall being dumped into different timelines....Oh well, I'll know for sure by the end of next month, at the very latest.
I'm pretty sure it was the reserve air....because I remember there being something in the game that talked about the reserve air. Can't remember if it was in a certain dialog or some text on the background. Why she pushed the button? It's probably because she was reaching for the rings on her necklace. I don't know...Something floats away from her space suit in that scene. I doubt it was the helmet latch, she doesn't take the helmet off until she gets inside.
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-04 15:04:00
Back to the Future uses a screwy version of the parallel dimension theory, if you watch closely. That means that when Marty goes into the past, he is backtracking down the probability line back to the root of his current dimension. However, when he makes a change there, he is altering his position on the probability axis, so travelling into the future sends him along where *that* direction would've taken.
Why is the version it use screwy? Because of the way it deals with the grandfather problem... it doesn't. In fact, it really doesn't make much sense at all, timeline-wise... what they focused on was writing a good story. Marty wouldn't disappear over time just because his future parents haven't kissed... in fact, that whole scene with his hand disappearing is messed up, because they were about to kiss anyway. So why did it happen? Drama.
FF8 does *not* use the same timeline mechanics as Back to the Future does. Ellone's power cannot change the past. Ellone's power is used by Dr Odine to create a machine that utilises this same power. Ultimecia uses this machine to go into the past... a past she cannot change. Which present is correct? Which past cannot be changed? The answer? Both presents are correct, and both pasts can't be changed. This is key to understanding FF8.
In addition, a paradox cannot occur if the past cannot be changed. Using FF8 timeline mechanics, you cannot kill your own grandfather. This is because, in the past, your grandfather was never killed. You could travel back in time... but all you'd be doing is fulfilling fate. You would have gone back in time anyway. But because of this fate, there is no way you can kill your father. This is exactly why Ellone couldn't get Laguna to get back to Raine. She couldn't change the past. Thus, no paradox is possible.
You're thinking of fate as some mystical force, it seems. It is not. It is an act of a certain timeline theory, one which FF8 happens to use. That theory is that everything that happens in a timeline has *already* happened, and that the act of living is just travelling along that timeline. Time travel is also possible in this theory, but you cannot change the past. This is one of the simplest time travel theories in existence.
However, it's generally not what people want to hear, so there are other time travel theories that *do* allow you to change the past. What's interesting about FF8 is that it doesn't use any of them.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-05 05:31:00
My goal is, currently, shaping the ideas of Timetravel and it's effects to the happenings in the FF8 Storyline; and to have no holes in the reasoning.
I like to believe this is how it works....which results in a happy ending for FF8 and from what I can tell, leaves no holes.
We were following Squall's story/timeline, which I'm going to reason is really the past. (Has a little bonus of fitting into Final Fantasies Linear Gameplay, and unreplayablity. :wink:)
Ultimecia's Story/Timeline is the true present. Square's writers didn't really focus on Ultimecia so we don't know much about her...but that's besides the point.
So, in my mind, Squall's Timeline is based on fate, caused by the events in Ultimecia's Timeline. Everything that Squall and company does had already happened and everything that Ultimecia's doing has an unknown cause. Paradoxes may have been happening in her Timeline...but, because we were following Squall's Timeline, we didn't see any of it's effects.
Ultimecia's Timeline has a big unknown future. If Ultimecia knew her future, she would have won or would have stopped. So she obviously doesn't know her own future, which supports part my theory of her Timeline being the true present.
Timetraveling Forward never happens in the Game. There is a Time Compression thing that happens, but Going to the Future never does. (defined by Square in the Story). There is a reason why they had to remember each other during the Time Compression....It was the only way they could be in one place at one time....well....I think that's the reason....get's too complicated when you go there. Everything happening at once is beyond comprehension and is probably impossible to explain. The Game, "The Longest Journey", supports Time Compression pretty well...One character in that Game lives in that frame of time. After playing that game, understanding Time compression makes a little more sense, not much...but a little.
Ok...so (in my FF8 TimeTravel Theory) Ultimecia's Timeline is defined as the True Present Timeline (A timeline with a constantly changing future), Squall's Timeline, which we are watching, is the Past (the Future is already defined in Squall's Timeline, up to, and not beyond, the point of Ultimecia's Timeline).
Apparently, Squall, who is living in the past, can't effect his own past. This is because the Past can't change the Past. This keeps us from seeing the Paradox Thing. (Remember, FF8 doesn't have a real Paradox thing happening, just Time Compression. Smart move by Square's writers)
When Squall Defeats Ultimecia in the Time Compression. Her Timeline ceases to exist. (of course all timelines ceased to exist during the time compression, but I'm going somewhere else with this) Squall's Timeline then becomes the true present and all the happening from then on forward are constantly changing.
In short, when Squall defeats Ultimecia. His timeline becomes Ultimecia's Timeline or vice versa. The circle of fate is broken.
(from my imagination)
When Squall returns to normal time, he can then go to his own past and change it if he wishes....but if he does.....His past will become the Present. And his Timeline will do the same thing that Ultimecia's timeline Did.....It will Vanish, out of existence. Not a smart thing to do. The risk is too high, best not to Timetravel, unless you know for sure that the universe is going to end....(Ever see a movie called "Super Nova"? In the DVD deleted scenes version...the Universe Dies...that would be a good time to risk timetravel :D)
Square has some really good talent, under it. They really thought about this TimeTraveling stuff, in their story; and it shows when you analyis the story's sequence of events. Too bad the story was not gripping. They really needed a defined villan. That's where they messed up. That and the editing they did to the dialog.
I bet you that Square's writers were focusing, so much, on the Timetravel thing, that they forgot about or didn't have time to connect us to the FF8 world and Characters. FF7 did this Character connection thing, perfectly....but FF7 Story doen't make any sense when you analise it. Kinda wierd when you think about it.
(hope, I didn't lose anyone)
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 05, 2001).]
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-05 06:07:00
You've agreed you can't change Squall's past. Yet, destroy Ultimecia's 'timeline', and she is unable to even exist, or die, or even pass on her powers to Edea. Thus, Squall's entire *PAST* would begin to unravel.
But that past can't change. Ultimecia *has* to jump into Edea and start trying to do Time Compression. Squall and co *have* to be forced to stop her.
Remember, if you change the future such that Ultimecia cannot exist, then you also change everything she could've done. And that, in turn, affects the past that you cannot change.
That's a contradiction right there.
Plus, you're allowing for paradoxes in the future. That's unnecessary in the theory where *everything* can't be changed... a paradox cannot happen if both past and future are predetermined
Remember, also that if your theory was correct, then Ellone *would've* been able to change the past. And then, by your own words, Laguna's past would become the new present, and he would've stayed with Raine when Squall was born.
This doesn't happen though. We learn that Ellone's power can't change the past. And guess what... *everyone* was using Ellone's power to time travel. Even Ultimecia's Time Compression is simply a twist on the power of the Ellone Machine... she just needed enough Sorceress power to fuel it all.
You seem to think that there won't be a happy ending unless Ultimecia's timeline is eradicated. That's not the case. Several things happened to make it a happy ending.
Seifer got to follow his romantic dream, and then to see past it. He got over his obsession with it. He saw how his 'posse' actually cared for him, but at the time he was too caught up in things to be pulled back from the brink. But once everything was said and done....
Zell finally got to have a hotdog ^_^
Laguna assumedly got to spend some time with his son.
Edea returned back to her normal self, not having to live in fear of Ultimecia.
And Squall... Squall learned to feel again. He'd matured into a leader, and he was ready to trust now. Rinoa had saved him.
If that's not a happy ending, I dunno what is. Sure, Ultimecia still lurks in the future, but SeeD wasn't going to disband immediately. What if other evil Sorceresses rose up after time? There will come a time in the future where Ultimecia is born, and then is attacked by SeeD, prompting the spiral down to her use of the Ellone Machine. Shortly after she first uses it, she mysteriously disappears, leaving the SeeD of that time confounded. But since she never returns...
There is no 'circle of fate'. Fate, in a way, is neverending. The happy part though, is that Squall and co don't *know* what their fate is. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.
Do I believe in fate in real life? Personally, I'm not sure. I believe that the past cannot be changed. I believe that time travel isn't possible, since I do not believe the Universe has a 'memory' of what state it was in before. I do believe that local time can be slowed down or speeded up, but that's due to the aging of molecules and how to affect that. (That's how we measure time; by the way things age)
But fate? I believe in free choice. I'm human... it would take a great deal of effort for me not to believe in that. I could run all manner of tests to prove that I could decide to do something whenever I want to... but there's no way to prove that that wouldn't have happened anyway.
Can the future be changed? Perhaps that's not something we can answer yet. And perhaps we don't want to *know* the answer.
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-05 06:22:00
As you go through FF8, if you look carefully, you see clues that Squall has already *gone* to the past after defeating Ultimecia. The two main ones come from Cid and Edea:
Cid, Disc 2, just after fight with NORG:
"She had been a sorceress since childhood. I married her, knowing that."
"We were happy. We worked together, the two of us. We were very happy."
"One day, Edea began talking about building the Garden and training SeeD."
"I became obsessed with that plan. But I was very concerned with SeeD's goal, that one day SeeD might fight Edea..."
"She laughed and told me that would never happen."
"However..."
Edea, third CD, last time you talk to her:
"I first became a sorceress when I was a child. And once again...13 years ago."
"That day...right here, I encountered a sorceress on the verge of death."
"I received her powers of my own will."
"That sorceress was an entity of fear for my children."
"I could not let her get to them. But...This turned out to be the beginning of my painful story."
"As this very minute, my bitter story has ended. I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be."
"Therefore...Squall?"
"You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!"
All this happens before Time Compression. From Edea's words, we later learn that Ultimecia is fated to die and give her powers to Edea. From Cid's words, we later learn that Squall is fated to meet Edea and give her the idea of SeeD she comes up with so suddenly.
These events have already taken place. Yet, from the events in the game, we know that Ultimecia is still around during Squall's timeline to cause trouble.
From all this, we conclude that Ultimecia is fated to be defeated anyways, and that everything that Squall does is fated to happen. Were Ultimecia's timeline destroyed, then we would've seen that in the game itself. In fact, there wouldn't even *BE* a game.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-05 10:10:00
Squall went to the wrong timeline when he came out of Time Compression (by this point of the game Ultamecia's timeline is distroyed). Then later he returns to the correct Time Line.
....Guess he was concentating more on his Sister and Edea, than Rinoa at the time. Then he went to...????? end of time? like in Crono Trigger.....?
His small intrusion in his own past caused all those small clues and the sequence of event for the introduction of the SeeD and Garden. And he was able to influence the past because the future was now distroyed, and his timeline was now the present. Ultamecia must have followed him to that wrong timeline. I guess she couldn't return to her Timeline because it no longer existed...so she followed Squall into his. This is pure speculation, and can't be proven, but it's the only thing I can come up with.
I guess this all lays to another question....What is the branching of the sorceress' powers?
Edea recieves her first powers when she is still a child, from an unknown sorceress.
Adel has her powers, also from an unknown. Could it be, because at a certain instant in the game, Ellone gave Adel the powers of Rinoa and Ultimecia at the same time? hmmmm.
Edea gave all her power to Rinoa. This includes the powers Edea got when she was young.
Ellone gives Rinoa's powers and Ultamecia's powers to Adel...Time Compression happens. Maybe Time Compression could only happen at that point, because that is the only instance where a good portion of the sorceress' powers on Earth, are in one person? and The Machine that Ultimecia was using couldn't go that far? (That's why I like doing these...Brainstorming)
Edea gets all of Ultamecia's powers....who is supposed to have the combined powers of all the Sorceresses at this point of the game.
Edea should then automaticly transfer all her powers back to Rinoa, through the retracking of the past, and because of Squall's trek to the wrong timeline....Rinoa wouldn't have been able to transport herself to Squall if she wasn't still a sorceress.
Hmm...guess that's the sorceress timeline of powers...except for one little thing.....where did Ellone get her powers? They never tell us. Guess it's was from the lesser Sorceress' out there, that weren't told in the story.
Same conclusion goes for Edea's first encounter with the powers and the reason why only a large portion of the powers had to be in one person...and not all the powers, to allow the Time Compression to happen. Ellone never gave up her powers...or did she? I can't remember.
It's a lot harder to figure out the Balance of the Sorceress Powers through all the Time Jumping.
I think that's all the info, I can provide on this subject without repeating myself. I'm gathering a lot of this way of thinking because of the game I played recently....The Longest Journey. Go out and play it. It explains a thory of timetravling, pretty good, if you read between the lines. In that game the beginning of the game is the true present and the story is the, set in stone, past.
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 05, 2001).]
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-05 10:46:00
How did they come together? Through the events of the game. If you destroy Ultimecia and then move Squall to a timeline where Ultimecia never existed, then you hit *TONS* of problems. Edea never absorbs Ultimecia's powers. Edea never has the idea for SeeD. Balamb Garden never takes off. Squall and Rinoa never meet. The Galbadian President is still alive.
In addition, Chrono Trigger uses different time mechanics altogether, so while you can call it End of Time all you like, I'd try not to draw *too* many comparisons between the two.
Also note that Squall's present has been influenced *BEFORE* he leaves Time Compression. We *know* that he gave Edea the idea for SeeD. We even suspect that Edea recognises adult Squall when she sees him. That's why she tells him to continue to fight, no matter what tragedy it may bring. She knows both the beginning and the end to the story.
You seem to think that Squall is *CHANGING* the past in that final scene. He's not. That's the past as it was all that time ago. You play through the game that has been mostly generated *because* Edea got the idea of SeeD from a time-travelling adult, and because she absorbed the power from a dying Sorceress at that time. That's not change. That's fate.
As for the branching of Sorceress powers...
Edea receives US1 (Unknown Sorceress 1's powers) and Ultimecia's powers.
Adel receives US2's powers.
Edea gives US1+Ultimecia's powers to Rinoa.
Rinoa gets US2's powers from Adel.
Ultimecia gets her powers from US3.
Now... US3 could either have US1+Ultimecia's powers, inherited down the ages... but that would cause a loop.
An easier solution is that US3's powers *don't* contain US1+Ultimecia's powers. Thus, what we get is Rinoa having US1+US2+US3's powers at the end of the game, while the powers US3 will inherit are *ALSO* out there elsewhere in the world. This will continue until Ultimecia inherits the original US3's powers and disappears into the past, taking them with her. At that point, the total amount of Sorceress power in the world will return to normal.
Finally, it's categorically stated that Ellone's powers do not derive from any Sorceress or from the Great Hyne. It *is* left unexplained, but it's also known that Dr Odine is able to harness them. (Something to do with the electric current running through her brain, according to Odine ^_^)
Yes, there are other Sorceresses out there. Ultimecia's goals were either Ellone or a large quantity of Sorceress Power.
The final thing you're failing to recognise is that the timeline Squall returns to after Rinoa finds him in Time Compression/End of Time, is a timeline that could only exist if Ultimecia had interfered from the future. As stated: Balamb flying and SeeD still existing are only two of the clues that show that they made it back to the same timeline they left.
I'd like to cite Occam's Razor here, because it's fairly obvious it's needed. "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances," or "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."
Multiple timelines and destructed timelines are *NOT* simpler than one single timeline that is both consistent with itself, holds no paradoxes, and cannot be changed.
I still feel your theory holds many fundamental flaws that don't adequately explain FF8, and is too complex for the task where a simpler theory would do.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-06 08:37:00
The key to my theory is that we are following Squall's influences, no one elses.
When Ultimecia is finally defeated, Time becomes uncompressed. Everyone returns to a certain timeframe. The only people that are aware of this, "Compressed time", are Squall's party and Ultimecia....everyone else in the Universe is in limbo (unaware of the compression...same as dying). When time goes back to normal, every one in limbo automaticly go to their original timeline (never knowing that time compression has ever happened.) Squall's Party has to concentrate on their own Timeline to get back to it.....(At least that's what I think they said....before Ellone put "Rinoa's" powers and "Adel's + Ultamicia's" powers into the young Adel...you forgot about that sequence of events, in your explanation of the sorceress' power, timeline)....Squall said he would concentrate to that Field, but for some reason he didn't. I explained all that on my first post.
Ok...Because Ultimecia was interfering with Squalls Timeline....(her spirit/soul was living in Squall's Timeline and not her own)
when she was defeated by Squall, I'm going to guess that she was either too weak to return to her own timeline (which would have been altered, because of her interference); or she couldn't return, because the pardox she created wouldn't allow her to return.
(I believe the last explanation, but the first explanation covers my butt.)
I'm guessing she had two choices....either Stay at that place of nothingness, or follow Squall. (or she had to attach herself to Squall because she was too weak) She chose to follow Squall. Squall went to far into the past....he did go to the field, like he promised...but he went a little to far in time. And that's when Ultimecia made her final appearance. Edea Absorbs Ulta's powers....and then tells all those things that you remember to Squall. I will know what she said word, per word, when I get to that point, but I currently don't remember what she said. I'm pretty sure there was no mention about 'having to fight, no matter what the consquences'....the Final Battle is over by then. I think she just told Squall that he didn't belong there, and that she absorbed Ultimecia's powers.
I never said Ultimecia never existed, by the end of the game....Oh! she existed...and everyone on that version of Earth, remembers her deeds. Most may connect Edea to those deeds, but they will always, remember.
To sum it up: We are in Squalls Timeline. The deciding Timeline is Ultamicia's. Ultamicia's Timeline is what I consider to be the present (non-fate). Squall's Timeline is Ancient History (fate). When Ultamicia goes to Squall's Timeline she started to change her own History. But since we are following Squall, we don't see those changes...we see the effects like we would see effect of the present and that's how FF8 is written. Then Squall and Ultamicia go too far into the past and alter some things.....(still fate). Squall goes back into TimeCompression and then goes to his original TimeFrame. (fate dies) Fate dies here....why? Because, Squall has finally stopped his time jumping. When he returns to his final distination (which so, happens to be close enough to the correct timeframe he belongs in.) any, "to be", paradoxes cease/won't (to) happen.
Ultamecia lost and died in Squall's past. She didn't Die because she was never born....she died because Edea and Squall killed her. Squall doesn't realise his involvment with the creation of Garden and SeeD until the end of the game. From then on forward...the future is an unknown factor. Ultamecia in her involment with her Anchient past, made the Anchient past the present. Squall's world becomes unwritten as soon as Rinoa and Squall returns to the Correct Timeframe.
When a paradox happens in time....no one remembers what the future is before the paradox and the only people who know that there was a paradox are the people who created the paradox. Squall releases this paradox when he goes too far in the past. Edea's future at that point was going to be different. We are following Squall's influences in the Universe, so we nor he knows what would have happened if he didn't go to the past at that point of the story. He didn't know that he was the cause of that paradox, until he created it...and he will always remember, not remembering that he helped create the idea of Garden and SeeD. He will always remember that he was the cause, because he jumped to far into the past and Ultamecia followed him there. (The key to my theory is that we are following Squall's influences, no one elses).
When he tells his friends that he put the idea of SeeD and Garden into Edea's head, they will probably say something like, "Heh...Sure you did." and he will say, "No it's true! I just found out, myself. I traveled to far into our past when I tried to come back, here...and that's when I put the idea into Edea's head."
--------------------------------------
Don't jump Timelines...Forget about the common theory of: If I keep myself from being born...none of my influences in the past will matter...because if I keep myself from being born then I can't go to the past and then I will be born.....
You see. When you think like that, Timetravel makes no sense. It becomes the question of, "What came first, the chicken or the Egg?" The answer to that question is neither came first...."Evolution" is the true answer to that old question.
If you plug in my theory of timetravel...FF8 makes total sense and it has a happy ending. Fate "dies" at the end of the story.
(I could give examples....)
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 06, 2001).]
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-10 06:41:00
Rinoa + Ultimecia + Adel's power were *temporarily* placed into the young Adel by Ellone. It was the standard 'junctioning' that Ellone had done all along, making young Adel all that more powerful. Thus, we don't really need to care about it in a power timeline, because it's only temporary.
What you're describing is classic 'multiple universes' theory. Why? Because of the way you deal with Ultimecia; once Squall returns after the final battle, you say the future is undefined, and that Ultimecia is never 'born'. But she had to have come from somewhere... this is where you get Another Future, and start straying close to the theories Chrono Cross/Chrono Trigger use.
I think that's far too complex a method, personally, when it's a lot easier to fit it all into one timeline and one sequence of events.
Just for the record, I'll give you Ultimecia's timeline, from the game:
Ultimecia is born in the far future. We don't know what kind of person she is, but we assume she is malicious, or grew up that way.
She later inherits the power of a Sorceress, and starts on her descension into tyranny. Or maybe SeeD had records of her from the past, and decided to nip this problem in the bud, forcing her to fight back... we don't know.
What we do know is that she learns of the secret of Time Compression, where she would be able to meld several presents into one and absorb all the Sorceress power in the world, becoming the most powerful being ever (equal to the Great Hyne). She also discovers the Ellone Machine.
Ultimecia uses the Ellone Machine to go back and take control of a young woman named Edea. The time she takes control is uncertain... but definitely before the start of the game itself.
Insert the entirety of FF8 here; when Edea is defeated, Ultimecia junctions onto Rinoa instead. After Adel is released, Ultimecia is about to try to junction onto Adel, but Laguna's plan is put into motion, and Rinoa absorbs Adel's powers, then awaits Ultimecia's next attempt to enter her. As soon as that happens, Ellone uses *her* power to transfer Rinoa+Ultimecia into young Adel, and them shifts Rinoa straight back into her own body, leaving Ultimecia there. Ultimecia begins Time Compression.
Squall and co enter Time Compression and travel to the *FUTURE*. They are now where Ultimecia's body is. They enter the castle, defeat Ultimecia (and enter Time Compression again during that battle), and defeat her.
When Squall tries to return home, his memories lock onto his desire to find Ellone, and, yes, he goes too far. Ultimecia does follow. Ultimecia ends up giving her power to Edea, and Squall unwittingly gives the idea of SeeD to Edea as well.
Ultimecia dies.
There. No inconsistencies, it's understandable, and it doesn't breach the 'can't change the past' rule Ellone preaches to use in Disc 3. It also sets up the present and the future.
If you're still saying that 'fate dies', then what you're really saying is that the universe Squall returns to is *NOT* his universe. Or the universe Ultimecia goes back to to try and take over is not *her* universe. Both of which lead to more complex explanations and freak occurences. I have no doubt you could likely explain them... but not as simply or as elegantly.
Nature abhors a paradox. We know this. That's *why* there are several ways of dealing with it. You seem to think I subscribe to that 'common theory'. I don't. Let me tell you the theories I do subscribe too...
1) Past cannot be changed, but future *can* be changed.
In this theory, time travel is not possible. This is the world I believe we live in. There's still the 'free will' aspect here, but the future is not predetermined, unless you think that humans are all automonous beings who are just act how their brains tell them too, with chaos theory only making the events and decisions *seem* random.
2) Past cannot be changed, future cannot be changed.
Under this, time travel *is* possible. FF8's story and consistancy makes more sense under this theory, simply because a lot of what happens is set up for what Squall and others do. (This includes stuff like helping out Laguna: "The fairies are back again") This is one of the most elegant ways of explaining time travel (the puzzle is already fitted together), but it's not as 'fun' to work with; a lot of people like time travel to see what they could *change*. FF8, however, isn't about change, as you notice ^_^ It's about living the present.
3) Past can be changed, Future can be changed.
This is the final theory, usually. However, it's here that you start hitting extremely complex theories, involving multiple universes all along a probability axis. It's under this theory that you can have effects without a seeming cause (the cause having come from a different vector on the probability axis). It's also extremely complex and ugly, frankly.
The biggest flaw to your theory, in my opinion, is one of elegance. Why Squall? What makes him special? Why does his influence count more than Ultimecia's? Why does fate have to die?
The other thing you seem to have missed is that the theory I've proposed still makes sense, and still gives a happy ending. So what if Ultimecia will still be born in the future? It's already been dealt with; the danger has passed. And that wasn't the point of FF8 at all. The point of FF8 was Squall's own growth. For me, Squall's smile at the end is probably the most telling aspect that it was a happy ending after all.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-11 06:25:00
Everyone seems to be dead in Ultimecia's time. There were SeeD bodies, everywhere. And being that about 10 people make up a town in FF8....I would assume that meant a lot of people, maybe even everyone. If that, or something simular, is the fate of FF8's world. That doesn't seem like a happy ending to me.
Hmmm...This is why I started all of this:
"Overall, if you think too much about FF8, it's a depressing turn of events; everything is prophesised. You can't change the past... but because of that... you can't change the future either. All you can do is live.
Don't think about that too much though. It *is* a depressing fact, but humans have shown great capacity to ignore the horrible truth and cling to their own securities. That's how most people survive."
Doesn't look like you believed it was happy back then. For FF8 to have a happy ending...the fate of the story has to be broken in the end. (I had to take the challenge, of finding a happy ending. I really wasn't expecting this kind of opposession :D)
Here's my theory, in a nutshell:
1. The past can't change the past.
2. The present can change the past.
3. If a future timeline/world exists, then the present is defined as the past.
Also, I've noticed that in the game Ultimecia never goes back to her own timeline....she is always in Squall's. Maybe she can only use the machine, once.
Take a look at my Flow-sheet....
It's a rough draft...so there are spelling mistakes...and could change. But I think it's pretty close to what happens in the game.
edit:
U've been away for a while :D. Thought the topic was dead for sure....and what happen to all the others? guess they are just shadowing.
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 11, 2001).]
Post by: Anonymous on 2001-04-12 14:59:00
I nourissssh myself that way, and this dicussion fills my mind with much tasty food to digesst in those quiet hours after I have fed on tasty morsels caught in my web, a web so haphazzardly woven the unwary fail to recognize it for what it really is...their fate lying in wait, eternal, immutable.
Not all your wissshes or imaginations can change that which was written in the beginning, that destiny toward which we all travel, an ultimate destination from which not one of us escapessss.
Post by: Black Widow on 2001-04-12 17:14:00
Begone, intruder! Leave without further challenge! Only one will emerge from any encounter between us, and it will be me! I lurk here! I hunt here! Mine! It is mine!
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-12 19:46:00
Notice how all of the time travel schemes went awry. Ultimecia's and Ellone's motives both failed. They concentrated too much on the past.
The reason why FF8's future seems so dead, by the way, is partly due to Time Compression, and also partly due to Ultimecia (but only partly). Come on... you don't see *hardly* as many dead SeeD there as you do in the battle of the Gardens. And don't try to bring FF8 town mechanics into this :P It's generally assumed there's usually a lot of places, buildings and people in each town that you never get to see or enter.
Looked through your flowchart... and there are a number of things with it I disagree with.
First off, young Adel wouldn't have inherited Ultimecia's powers just through Ellone's powers. Does Laguna get to keep Leviathan just because Ellone moved Squall back into him? No. Laguna gets the *use* of Leviathan and other GFs... but once Squall's returned, Laguna's back to relying on his own again. (Remember Laguna and Kiros' words about how the fairies were back again, and how things should be easier with them?)
Another thing I disagree with... we don't *know* that young Ultimecia will eventually be the one to inherit Rinoa's powers. Rinoa seems to think she will, but there's no evidence for it. It's strongly hinted at that there are far more Sorceresses on the planet than are made public at any one time.
In fact, it makes more sense for Ultimecia not to inherit it... that solves the problem of the Great Hyne's powers coming from nowhere and running in loops.
Also, keep in mind that when Ultimecia is defeated in the future, all the powers she was drawing on through Time Compression would return as soon as Time Compression is broken. Time Compression is *VERY* similar to Ellone's powers, except it seems to involve junctioning one person into every present at once.
You've also got "Unknown -> Young Sorceress Edea" twice, even when you've also got Ultimecia's powers going into Edea. Edea only became a Sorceress twice. Not three times.
Anyway... you seem to have misunderstood what I said way back then. The *theory* itself is depressing. No one likes to hear they can't change the future.
But guess what? Squall and co don't know that for sure. Ellone may have some ideas, but she doesn't know for sure either. And even if Squall did work it out... I don't think it would bother him. It would certainly bother me if I were in his position... but to him, he's been there and done that. And he's got more important things to concentrate on. Like Rinoa ^_^
Remember when I said 'ignorance is bliss'? Sometimes, it really is.
Oh, and no happy ending is ever going to stop another evil Sorceress from rising up and having to be put down by SeeD :P
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-15 02:54:00
...who's the one concentrating on all this? Certainly not the characters.
Yeah...well.
If the characters did focus on it, it would have been a more intresting game. It may have even been considered better than FF7 or FF6.
And every Timetravel story, I ever saw/read have a failed Time Travel Scheme somewhere in it.
And the reason why FF8's World is so dead, is because all FF Worlds are dead. Yeah, Yeah....the flowchart....but it was fun to follow, right? It was also pretty fun to make. And where are you getting all this Junction Stuff....Anyway, I don't feel that Junctioning a GF is the same as Junctioning a person who has GF Junctioned to him/herself. And did you consider the Fact that Laguna's level goes up faster when Squall is inside him? Besides, Squall isn't a sorceress (wrong sex)....maybe some of the powers get left behind or something. Maybe that's the reason why Ultim, never left Squalls World....She would lose all her powers, when she did. (Sounds good to me.... :P) I never said Ultim get's Rinoa's powers. If anything, I said that she gets Edea's powers. Besides, if Square wrote about that there wouldn't be any theories... Not that there are a lot of them in FF8. Great Hyne? coming from nowhere? running in a loop? Hey...I didn't write the novel. :D According to those writers. The first sorceress war is where the Great Hyne gave his "bottom" end to the mortal people and apparently, only the females (looks like Square did it again...always putting that subjective sex, thing, in their games). That's where it came from. And there is no real loop in my theory. With Rinoa, now owning the great power,....I have no idea where it goes into next. In my explanation the Future is now, unwritten. I Misunderstood? Nah....If I misuderstood I would have agreed with you. ROFLOL. Remember, the last thing that stayed in Pandora's box, was 'Hope'. And that's why I'm writing all of this, and wrote all of that other stuff. :o Have to keep hope alive.....And Aeris isn't dead either! no happy ending is ever going to stop another evil Sorceress from rising up and having to be put down by SeeD ...BTW: I tried to send the several times....guess I had too many Smilies Stuff on it, Kept getting an timing error. Then I got rid of some of the razz smilies and it went through. Guess Qhimm put a cap on the Smilies Legend stuff. Looks like the razz thing doesn't work with a CAP "P" either....none show up on your post....or it's disabled on your post. [This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 14, 2001).]
Well....not in your version of the story, it won't. (that, right there should prove that my version is better :P)
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-15 16:23:00
Rinoa left the present and travelled to the future through Time Compression... and didn't lose her Sorceress powers. So why would Ulti have that problem? The reason she didn't go back physically was because she was using the Ellone Machine.
Edea's powers were fully passed on to Rinoa; Rinoa *HAS* Edea's powers. Thus, you can't say that Ulti got them in the end.
The Great Hyne is said to have split his power and granted them to Sorceresses far in the past. If we assume he's some god-like being, we don't really want this power to get duplicated or arrive from nowhere; we need a decent cause-effect trail of where all the power goes. That is what I was talking about. The loop in your theory is Ultimecia; or how she never gets born in Squall's new 'non-fate' timeline and thus never gets to inherit the Great Hyne's power. Thus, you get Sorceress power arriving without a cause in that timeline... that's problematic.
And... um... even in your version of the story, there's nothing stopping a new evil Sorceress rising up in the future. No fate, remember? Thus, anything could happen.
In the version I've continually described, I don't doubt that Squall and Rinoa get a chance to live 'happily ever after'. There's no evidence against them having a long and happy life... because we *don't* know that part of the future. What you seem to want to change is the far future as well... you seem to want to be able to make it as happy as you can until the end of time. That's not only unrealistic... but it's also been already taken care of... at least, Ultimecia has. If fate 'dies', then anything can happen; even bad endings. In which case, it's left in the hands of your imagination... which is really fate again. If you're choosing a future... you're really playing the role of fate.
You can't pick and choose what you like here. If you're going to abandon fate, then you have to realise that after that, anything can happen. It also causes a lot of problems with cause and effect.
You can't say that the future is unwritten, and then go on to say that it's going to have a happy ending because you say so. That's a contradiction in your logic right there.
If you do go with 'fate' (which I dislike being described as something that exists or is alive in this scenario), then you must realise that even though Ultimecia will be born and wreak havoc... she's already been taken care of. Thus, there's nothing for Squall and Rinoa to fear about it.
In addition to all this... whichever version you use, they don't *KNOW* their immediate future. Ultimecia's time is far far away. Not knowing what's going to happen in the years between that, but knowing that the world around you is good and that the troubles afflicting it have been fixed... there's your hope there.
You seem to think my version doesn't have hope. It does because of ignorance of the future. The only thing they know that will happen in the future, they already know the outcome of.
I've got an exam coming in five or six weeks. I don't know whether the future is determined or not. But even if I got a vision of, say, a town in 2100AD, and was told that the future cannot be changed... do I know whether I will pass my exam or not?
Answer: I don't. I have hope that I will. And *that* is the difference.
Post by: Wing on 2001-04-15 05:07:00
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-15 07:38:00
Journeyman Project is a lot better, and covers certain paradox theories reasonably well, but it's a more complex take on the multiple universe/changing universe theories (which, really, are all pretty complex, since you can have so many variations).
I'm not sure of where you'd find a good source to go over the various theories that we've already covered. Most of them are more logical and stuff you could work out yourself if you really thought about things.
After a quick search on the Net, I found http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.preston/Time.html , which is worth taking a look at. It clearly shows how paradoxes are avoided in theory. Most of the rest of the page is devoted to the mechanics of achieving time travel and the possible theories in doing that, but the real interesting part is in the first document that talks about paradoxes. That should bring you to the three conclusions I displayed earlier in this thread: Time Travel not possible, Time Travel possible but past and future are determined, and Time Travel possible with quantum universes/multiple universes/probability axis.
Enjoy.
[This message has been edited by Terence Fergusson (edited April 15, 2001).]
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-15 17:06:00
This discussion has appeared before, I'm afraid. The people I was arguing with at the time had a theory of two similar, yet distinct time lines. These would have intersected when Squall was killed by Edea's ice magic. Yes, the theory was based on the assumption that he was killed. This way, when disc 2 started, we had entered another time line. This somehow explained most of the paradoxes found in the game, but I can't remember the details. However, the theory had some major flaws that I pointed out; the main flaw being the fact that the party remembers the earlier events when starting disc 2. My point of view was basically the same as Terence's, and could be presented in a single sentence. "Every change to the past that will happen, has already happened". Thus implying a strong sense of fate, and a heavy lock-down regarding future events.
The question immediately arises; if Squall is fated to defeat Ultimecia (since she has died by his hand in the past), how much of Squall's future has already been decided? Is it completely unchangeable, or...? Lets visualize the theory of quantum universes (every possibility in a given situation does happen, but in separate, new "copies" of the universe). In this situation, "fate" would mean removing every "time thread" except those leading to the determined situation.
Of course, all this becomes void if we follow the rule that the past cannot be changed. The future would be completely decided up till the point of the last time travel to the past. Or even completely decided to the end of time itself. What a sad concept.
"Every change to the past that will happen, has already happened", consequence before cause. Entirely possible in temporal mechanics, but only theories. Let's take a look on our own universe. Using the current theories for describing it, things are as in Terence's example #1 (Past cannot be changed, but future *can* be changed). At least, it seems so. A simple addition though; time travel is not only possible, it is happening all around us. It's just that the effects are usually much too small to measure. Einstein's theories predicts that the time of a moving object moves slower than the surrounding time. Meaning, if you move fast, you will begin travelling into the future. The past is safe thanks to the mechanics of it all; you can't use this theory to travel back in time, thus you can't change anything.
There are, of course, other theories in which time travel is possible. Black holes, for example, could be connected to another black hole at another point in space-time (wormholes). There are obvious problems to this theory... ^^
While looking through the link Terence gave us, I noticed the current theories of using the energy of black holes to power time travel. This may be very possible, but I didn't quite agree with their way of travelling backwards in time. The basic concept I found was travelling above the speed of light, relying heavily on quantum tunneling. This itself is a nice concept, but hard to make anything practical of.
The problem lies in the assumption that moving at super-light speed would mean reverse time-travel. I'm going to use an image to make my point:
![]("http://qhimm.3dstream.net/time.gif")
(If nothing appears, I might still be working on it. My PC is breaking down, so I'll post this while I can)
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-15 18:04:00
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-15 18:24:00
Then, for every smallest unit of time that exists, there would be a copy of your self, wouldn't it? (something like a frame from an animation)
Using out assumption that time travel is possible, then it would be possible for every single "frame" of yourself in the entire existance of yourself to appear at specific time. Now consider every "copy" of yourself to have considerable mass. Wouldn't you have introduced new "mass" and upset the whole rule that an equilbrium in mass, matter and energy? Not only have you upset the equilibrium in your that "specific" time frame, other time frames would be affected too since they have loss the "mass" that was formerly you at that particular "time frame".
Even if the above-mentioned problem didn't occur, what if I decided to kill let's say myself? Would it affect my existance? It really depends on how we view time. If we see time as continuous loop, then killing myself would destroy the loop. A paradox would occur if I were to go back in time to kill myself since if I'm dead how would I kill myself? If we consider that every single "existance" of me in every time frame to be independant, then it "would" be possible to kill myself. That would mean that I'm assuming that time is an indefinite figure and it never goes through a loop. This would also mean that when I kill myself at let's say 10.00am (correct down to the smallest unit of time), i would create 2 possible futures for myself, one with me dead and one with me alive. That would make it possible for me to make an infinite number of futures for myself at that time. Should that be so, even if I could travel through time, how would I decide which future I would end up in?
If you ask me, travelling back to the past is not a likely thing to happen since you will upset most of Einstein's theory of Relativity and a whole lot of idea's in Physics. It is already a known fact that travelling in an object at a faster speed makes time progress at a slower rate, thus time appears to slow down for people within the object. Time passes as usual for people outside the object. Should we accelerate as near as possible to the speed of light, we would reach a stage where time passes at an extremely low rate. What we have to remember is that the speed of light is the speed limit of the universe so nothing "theoratically" can be faster than it. Let's assume we do somehow manage to break that rule and travel at the speed of light. That way, time completely stops within the object that is travelling. Your object would then be completely useless since no one within it can control it since time has stopped anyway. should you then decide that you would control the object externally so you can stop it, we still have a problem; we have not gone back in time, we have only made time not pass for us. What if we go faster than the speed of light then? It is assumed by many that if we go faster than the speed of light, we will move back in time. Note that this travelling back in time would only occur within the moving object and thus would be completely useless within the object. Should time travel backwards, wouldn't we be in trouble? Every object within the object was formally something else before that and should going into the past make them "really" go back to the past, then the objects would not exist in the first place would they? Looks like the only kind of thing that we're gonna get from this method of travelling through time would be "disaging" old objects into new ones?
Honestly, with the currect laws of physics time travel is nowhere near possible. I would elaborate longer with formulas and examples(though Qhimm's formula is a good one) but my exam is tomorrow :(
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-15 18:40:00
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-15 18:45:00
This could be solved though, for example we could think of time as two-directional, like the spatial dimensions. This is part of the explanation for theoretical phenomena like effect before cause. However, since time only seems to move in one direction in our universe, we instantly run into trouble.
So, in a universe where time only flows one way (our universe), you'd run into trouble traveling to the past, introducing duplicate matter. Then again, maybe it is perfectly acceptable to alter the mass of the universe? I mean, lots of matter gets dumped into black holes all the time.
And finally, a correction. Time, just as space, has infinite resolution; meaning there's no such thing as a smallest unit of time. If there were, things like waveforms could not exist. A sine wave, for example, would consist of small steps instead of a smooth curve, thus breaking physics theories by the hundreds.
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-15 19:02:00
Assuming that there "isn't" a smallest unit in time, many physics laws would be broken.
Even if there isn't a smallest unit in time, it still does not prove my explaination wrong! If there isn't a smallest unit in time, time can only exist in two conditions; one that has infinite number of units and the other with no units at all making it one whole object by itself.
If time were to be indivisible and be a single object, then time would be indistinguishable between one second and the next. That would bring us to a condition that would be even worse;that the whole universe destroys and rebuilds mass and matter in an analogous cycle so there is no way time travel (back to the past) will be possible since there is no past to travel to in the first place.
If it were to be divisible into an infinite number of time frames, we would be getting a lot of zeros no matter what equation we make since anything divided by infinity is zero :)
Simply said, time travel would again be not possible in this condition either.
[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 15, 2001).]
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-15 19:11:00
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-15 19:12:00
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-15 19:31:00
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-15 19:54:00
Of course, sometimes we behave like infinity is a number because it makes equations (like some graphs) easier to understand, but it really isn't...
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-15 19:58:00
will...
reply...
tomorrow...
Await my return :)
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-16 05:05:00
Movement of matter and energy through the universe, as well as the aging of objects... that's how we perceive time. The past can't be changed because it doesn't *EXIST*... only the present does. The future may or may not be able to be changed because it's merely the reconfiguration of the present into a new configuration over 'time'. The only question is how much control does the present have over its new configuration; ie how much control does physics have?
That's an interesting question that I'll return to in a moment.
Time dilation/slowing down is possible in this theory since all it involves is slowing down perceived time and aging (remember, time is a human concept in this theory, and all that matters is the spectator; no global time here).
Of course, because the universe has no memory, it seems impossible to time travel to the past in this theory. You can time travel to the future, of course, but all you're doing there is something similar to cryogenics; slowing down the aging and perceiving of your own personal time until your surroundings have aged the appropriate amount.
Now, back to determination and fate... personally, I'm not sure whether 'fate' exists or not ^_^ Einstein famously remarked that 'God does not play dice with the universe'... if that's true, then does no random element exist? And if no random element exists, does that mean that everything I do and think could be predicted by a complex enough formula?
I think you get the idea I'm trying to put across here. It's by no means the only theory that could work, but it's one I find compelling enough to believe in... for now.
Of course, what fictional universes use is a different matter. Playing 'what-if' is a game lots of people love... which is, of course, why time travel stories can be so popular ^_^
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-16 15:23:00
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if you were to assume that there is no smallest unit in time, you will find that there is an unlimited amount of mass in the whole timeline. That shouldn't be the case, should it? I was also trying to put forward Terence's idea that the universe doesn't have any memory. If the universe doesn't have any memory, it doesn't keep any of the mass,matter or energy of the past. If the amount of mass, matter of energy is supposed to be constant, then the whole universe would be destroying itself and rebuilding itself in a whole analogous cycle. (Notice I don't use for the smallest unit of time since I'm gonna be corrected again)
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-16 22:34:00
If that's what you're arguing (I might be understanding you wrong) then that doesn't follow. Think about the area of a rectangle.
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-17 00:47:00
I see time an endless tape which goes under a recording head which is the present which means you could rewind it but in doing so the entire point on would be rerecorded with changing anything you had ther slightest contact with but that means you cannot go forwards in time because it has not yet been recorded
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-17 01:50:00
Some people (including me) like to argue (I mean intelligent argument here!) just for the sake of the argument. Sometimes you even learn something.
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-17 03:45:00
What I meant was why do you argue about this stuff in a forum dedicated to ff. The reason that the ending was as it was was to try and create a good happy ending it wasn't done with a view to science, they rarely are.
Also it is pretty pointless to argue about something that has little effect on anyone, if you want to argue about something it should be relevent to the masses
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-17 16:03:00
Are you saying you should only discuss things that you personally can affect and that also matter to the majority of other people? Somehow I don't think most people would agree with you there...
And yes, this is a FF forum, but you may have noticed that the general forum is sometimes used to discuss other things. It is a *general* forum, after all.
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-17 16:14:00
What I meant by relevent was that it was something to do with the people that read this board.
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-17 16:17:00
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-17 06:30:00
The general board is a place where any discussion can happen. So long as the discussions are peaceful and don't get out of hand and don't belong in any other forum, then they are *relevant*.
If you don't want to read the discussion, then don't click on the thread. This is your choice.
Please bear in mind the mandate of the General Forum: General FF/Square topics belong here, along with stuff that doesn't quite fit in elsewhere.
That second clause means that anything that doesn't fit in the other forums may be discussed here, so long as it doesn't get out of hand enough to require moderation.
Just because *you* see the discussion as pointless and boring, doesn't mean it shouldn't be here or that you should discourage people from participating. That is not your decision.
You are free to express whatever displeasure you want, but I see a number of regulars to this forum apparently enjoying the discussion, and thus see no reason why it should be prematurely ended at this point.
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-17 06:34:00
Post by: Aaron on 2001-04-17 07:06:00
ANYWAY
I think that the only part of "time" that exists is RIGHT NOW. The present. We cannot travel back in time, because the past does not exist anymore. It only existed in the past. The future will exist in the future. The present is what exists now.
Time travel into the past is impossible, because it could cause some wierd things to happen (like the paradox about you killing yourself, or your parents or something) and also... where are the time travelers? You'd also think if people ever invent backwards time travel, some insane terrorists might get it and come back and blow up the world with whatever big bombs exist then, causing another similar paradox. Not to mention, the past doesn't exist anymore and cannot be returned to or altered.
Time travel into the future may be possible, but it wouldn't technically be time travel. Really, time for a person could somehow be "accellerated" (by, I dunno, whatever space stuff we can do to speed up time) to an extreme rate, causing only seconds to pass for the person but years to pass for everyone else. However, returning to the past would not be possible.
That's my time theory.
[EDIT]: Clarifications, corrections, editions. Ok, ok, only one sentence...
[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited April 17, 2001).]
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-17 09:12:00
I was basing all this on FF8....and was trying to make it a little more intresting....and then the forumulas, and theories from, dead people....(Theory of Relativitity and such).
Frankly....It's just boring.
In FF8 there is only one physical TimeTraveling...and that was during TimeCompression. And for whatever, unknown reason, Squall's party was the only ones allowed to move around in that TimeFlow. In FF8, I doubt it was meant to be taken as TimeTraveling....Square made a different plane of Time and called it TimeCompression.....
Ok...Terence. I haven't thought too much about the Junction rules of FF8. But here's what I do know....GF's either choose to be part of Squall's Party, or Squall Steals them by drawing them out of the enemy. Guess there are two types of GF's....the Slaves and the Masters. Masters must be beaten and the Slaves can be taken or maybe the Slaves like working with people, while the Masters feel that there involvment, must be earned.
The GF's allow Squall and Party, to use magic. (For some reason monsters can use magic, too.) And GF's also give Special Abilities to Squall and Party.
Ellone is able to Connect present consciences to Past consciences that she pysically knew. The problem was that even though Squall was in Laguna's mind....Laguna couldn't understand him....maybe Squall's voice was unheard because Squall is really living in the past and not the present. Ultimecia, being from the real present, was able to take control of the person she was in....call it a clearer reception....or maybe it was because she was a sorceress...but that goes against my theory, so I'm sticking to the reception thing.
What are GF's? I like to think of them as DemiGods. Hyne was probably one of these DemiGods. It is said in the game that the Great Hyne Created People....and then the people uprised against him and defeated him....(here is where my memory is fading) What happens next is a deal is struck and the Hyne gives some of his powers/body to the females, of the people, he created. That is when the creation of the Sorceress and the beginning of the powers, begins. (There is no real loop of sorceress power around Ultimecia.....I'll explain the reasoning further down.)
It's also stated in the game, that the powers of the sorceress were known not to be spread, too thin. Which means the powers were in a very limited amount of women. A number that could well be taken as only Edea, Rinoa and Adel during our viewing of the game; and no one else.
Let's go ahead and put Ellone into a non-sorceress catagory....someone with a special ability...a freak of nature. And Adel wanted her as a successor for that, very reason. Ok....Now for your answers....
Ellone's powers could be called Junctioning...like a Plane and a Car can be considered modes of transportation....The same thing...but not really, the same when you analyse the differences.
Edea's powers were fully passed on to Rinoa; Rinoa *HAS* Edea's powers. Thus, you can't say that Ulti got them in the end.
Quit looking at time as a sequence of events, of Past, Present, and Future. Try to look at time from one persons perspective. In FF8, it's Squall's perspective. (heh heh....theory of Relativity in it's truest form...also this will prove that the powers don't really, loop around Ultimecia.) In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered. And Squall's TimeFlow then becomes the Original present. I already went through all of this....and don't feel it's neccessary to write it down, again.
About the happy ending thing:
To me...fate equals no choices. And a life that is based on no choices, isn't my idea of a happy, ending universe. I like to think that we make our own fate, good or bad.
If you view, "FF8" in a linear Past-Present-Future way, then you don't choose your own fate....your fate is predetermined from the beginning of time.
If absorbed my idea of where I was trying to take the story, of FF8. Past-Present-Future are flowing, and the idea of choosing your own fate, comes true. The only flaw that I see, is that in choosing your own fate, you can effect the course of many other fates. Ultimecia's choice of screwing with her own past, effected a lot of thing, in the FF8's Universe.
Being that this has turned into a technical debate of TimeTravel....guess I'll bow out. 'Cause I don't know anything about quantum physics or theories by a bunch of dead people.
BTW: There is a reason why Theories are called theories..... Don't base the Universe on other people's ideas.....use other people's ideas to create your own ideas.
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 17, 2001).]
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-17 10:13:00
As far as we know, GFs are entities of pure magic. However, more importantly, they can reside within humans through the use of ParaMagic (created by Dr.Odine). How do they exist within humans? We're not sure... but the line between these entities and entities born of simple imagination is *VERY* thin. Squall created Griever a long time ago... probably shortly after Ellone vanished from his life. That's what Ultimecia pulls out of Squall's mind. Griever was the strongest GF in Squall's mind... even though he had never thought of it as a GF before.
Whether they decide to help or hinder the party is up to them, of course. The GFs you draw are just those that are already clammed up in someone's head, granting them powers (or being imprisoned).
Ellone's power is similar to junctioning because it allows a person to reside within another's mind and grant power to that person... and also to somewhat influence their actions. Perhaps willpower is the determining power here... even when Squall got sent into Rinoa by Ellone herself, Ultimecia was strong enough to push Squall out when she detected him.
And now, looking at your own answers...
"In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered."
Not possible. She's using the Ellone Machine. And Ellon'e power can't change the past. Ellone has *SAID* this. It's demonstrated in the game too.
Since she can't alter the past, then from her point of view, she cannot change her present. Thus, nothing she can do can alter the events that will arrive up to her.
That one critical flaw is really where you're going wrong... because a lot of your arguments are based upon Squall's timeline becoming some kind of 'true present'... which you say can only happen once the past is changed. And yet... Ulti can't change it. She's using a machine that's based upon Ellone's own brainwaves... it thus suffers from all the limitations and powers that Ellone had.
Because you haven't proved that Ulti really can change the past, all your previous arguments come undone.
The other thing you're doing is you're misusing the theory of relativity. You're starting to say that one person's perception of time can alter another person's perception of time. You keep on trying to hammer this 'original present' idea... which requires more a *VERY* complex version of time travel theory. You're obviously not using the Quantum Universe theory for instance... your theory has no rules that really states when the 'Original Present' starts and how Ultimecia can affect the events leading up to that.
Your theory seems to be built out of one thing; you don't like the idea of a fated universe, despite a lot of the evidence in FF8 that points to it. And because you don't like it, you've created another theory to try and explain things. Maybe with enough tweaking you'll get it to finally work and fit with every piece of evidence in the game and actually have rules better than 'the protagonist stopped time travelling here, so this is where the new present must begin'. If that's the case, then there's nothing I can do to convince you... but it all seems very unnecessary.
A few more comments.
Squall's party was not the only ones to time travel. In fact, quite a few people time travelled as well... the Card Queen, the CC Group that had sneaked aboard the Ragnarok....
From that, we come to the conclusion that maybe *every* living being was pulled towards that single point of time where Ultimecia dwelled... but most would be behind the Time Compression shields around the main cities, or may have already been absorbed into Time Compression, as Xu puts it.
(Time Compression was merely a merging of all time into one single Present where time would grind to a halt; everyone was invited)
By the way, if you're still going to persist with this, you should realise this; the character that goes back the furthest using Ellone Power or Time Compression is not Squall. It's Ultimecia when she enters Young Adel and begins Time Compression. Squall *NEVER* goes back that far. Be very careful which time you choose to be the 'original present'...
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-17 10:21:00
I've thought of time travel for a very long time now. Almost everything I've said I came up with alone without help. I merely used outside sources to help show their validity.
Making up new theories is all very well... but if another model fits the perceived evidence better....
I'm sorry, but as it stands, your theory still seems too contrived. You even seem to contradict your own theories time and again: (since Squall went back in time and told Edea about SeeD, shouldn't *Edea's* time become the new Original Present then?)
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-17 14:56:00
And just fro the record It isn't boring and just because something is pointless doesn't mean its not interesting.
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-17 16:01:00
The area of a rectangle?
Let me see....
This is a rectangle :)
code:[/quote]
<-length->|========| ^
| | |Height
| | |
|========| |This rectangle is enclosed so we can say the area has area.
Since it is enclosed, it should have a finite amount of area.Was this what you were trying to say, Fice?
No matter how small we divide the units of measurement(for the length or the height), the area for the rectangle stays finite.
Well, let me illustrate my idea further.Let's assume we take the example of an apple.
And we assume that the apple is the only form of mass in the universe :)
We again assume that the apple is of x mass.
Now, let's say 1 second later, I decide to smash the apple.
The apple is disfigured now :)
Now, after making some calculations, the smashed apple is still of x mass
After that, the smashed apple decides to travel back to the past.
When it travels back to 1 second ago before it was smashed, there will be now a total mass of 2x at that second of time thus upsetting the whole mass of the universe at that time.
You see, the apple was only one second away from the smashed apple.
What if we divided a second into miliseconds?
Then we would have even more duplication of mass that "could" upset the balance of mass even more.
Now, back to the idea of unlimited "subdivision" of time (infinitely small units).
With such a division, there would be an infinite amount of mass, wouldn't it?
As you can see, at any moment of time, there can only be a finite amount of mass (the mass of one apple)
Since only a finite amount of mass "should" exist an any point of time, time travel would be illogical.
Do you follow me now?[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 17, 2001).]
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-17 16:30:00
You're talking as if the apple's mass somehow stretched over a period of time. This is just like a cube. For every point in the z dimension, it has width and height (but no depth). The volume and mass stay finite, no matter how much you divide the z axis into smaller units. The same applies to time. If you somehow wanted the total mass of a constant object during a time period, you would take the mass and multiply it by the number of seconds (SI unit), thus giving us the total mass-time in kg·s. Nothing goes infinite, it's just like a simple integrated function.
The only way you would get an infinite mass-time is if time itself was infinite (no beginning/no end) and you wanted to calculate the total mass-time of the universe or something.
The total matter duplication of going a second back in time is x kg·s, where x is the mass of the object going back in time. Going two seconds back gives a matter duplication of 2x kg·s, etc.
Post by: ficedula on 2001-04-17 22:22:00
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-18 00:54:00
No, it is best for all if the mass remains constant.
Hmm... there was this particle... a lot of theories required their count to remain constant, but I *cannot* remember its name. Damn...
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-18 05:00:00
If you review, you'll find that I haven't altered, in my overall story. I said Ultimecia's was in the real present and Squall is in her ancient history.
We are viewing the story as a paradox is taking place, and are viewing it from the past. Not from a future (Ultimecia) perspective, but from Squall's Perspective. I then threw some speculations that are supported in the story, to make it all fit nicely together.
I'm also aware of two version of the Hyne story, in FF8. One is told by the old man? ( I made up the Master/Slave GF thing for a lack of better terms....Every GF in the game is either stolen, Found, or Defeated. I had to plug in that with the GF's being lesser Gods from the same Universe that the Hyne lives in...and that Master/Slave thing was what came to mind. It really doesn't apply to my discussion of Time in FF8...but I felt it was a good enough to support the idea that the Hyne is a God (of sorts)....made people and gave the people some of his powers. And when people Junction GF's they are really getting help from Gods of FF8. I was just setting up a barrier between Ellone and the GF's, nothing more. Now, I've been saying both these things from the very beginning. 1. The past can't change the past...but the present can, and Ultimecia's Time is truly the present. The future beyond Ultimecia is not written. There is no fated story, for her. She's making choices and they are having consquences that we are viewing from Squalls perspective. That's how I picture FF8. A history that is being rewritten, because of Ultimecia's influences. Her timeline is in the wastebasket, because she died in the past. That's why we see the paradox in Squall's Present and not Ultimecia's Present. If Ultimecia had made it back to her own Present. The paradox would have been seen there, instead. And the story would have been written as such....which would have made a less, magical story and a much shorter one. This is the main reason why we see the influences that Squall made in his own past and the reasoning of his fate of distroying Ultimecia. I'm, now, talking about the SeeD/Garden/Edea thing that you keep trying to throwing in my face. All that happens and is remembered, because Squall made it back to his original Timeline. When Ultimecia Died in that past, the torch was passed on to Squall. The only reason it was fated was because Squall went to the past and Ultimecia died in that same past. In my reasoning...Squall going into the past is the only loop in the story, everything else is very, linear. Well....maybe the Adel power thing is a loop, too. But I didn't think about that one until the middle of these postings, while I was making my flowchart. (man work has been really heavy...can't fix any of the misspellings in the flowchart. LOL) To put my basic theory of timetravel in FF8, even shorter....Changing the past from the past, isn't possible. Changing the past from the present is possible....Changing the future is "Not Applicable" (N/A). All of these things are supported in FF8. And that's my main concern...real life not need, apply. Yes, it's more complex....but that's why I think it's fun to think about. But I don't find re-explaining things very, fun.... [This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 18, 2001).]
2. We are viewing the story from Squall's Time, which is truly the past.
Maybe you need a different example. Imagine writing a story.....and finishing it. And then going back to the middle of the finished story and rewriting a certain detail. And that detail effect every thing from that point of the story on forward. The original ending is in the wastebacket....and your currently doing a rewrite.
I was hoping that some holes in my theory could be found through controversy....but your just countering it with a more common theory.....Apples and Oranges as far as I'm concerned.
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-18 10:07:00
Think about this... when the present is Ellone's time, can she change the past? Remember... Ellone's past is not a result of any of Ultimecia's changes... thus, she'd *always* try to get Laguna to return to Raine. So, if I'm writing this story, and I get to Ellone's part, and she decides to try and change the past... well, according to your rules, she should succeed, shouldn't she?
She doesn't. She fails miserably.
Ellone's usage of her power is the first instant of time travel. Yet you conveniently ignore it so you can go ahead and make Ultimecia's time the 'true present'.
I'd call that a flaw.
In addition, you've come up with all these laws which seem completely screwy. If a time traveller dies and doesn't go back to their own time, why does that mean their timeline is automatically destroyed? And why does Squall now carry the 'torch'? Shouldn't Edea's be the true present then since the change took place there?
You're placing too much importance on the time traveller, and not enough importance on the actions that traveller takes.
And again, as I've told you before, there's no *need* for FF8 to be a paradox. I've outlined theories before that work well without a paradox being created.
Look, if you want to view FF8 in that way, I'm not going to stop you. I disagree with the theories for various reasons (screwy laws that seem designed to ignore certain events and wait until you want them to work, and the fact that various symbolism works better within the story if you use the theory I've outlined)... but I'm sure if you add enough rules and tweak it enough you'll get something that works... but I think you'd lose a few things Square was trying to show.
The most important sentence that reflects this is Edea in Disc 3. I've said it before, but I'll say it again:
"I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be."
"Therefore...Squall?"
"You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!"
You can explain this away in many different ways... but the symbolism is *STRONGEST* if the past has already been changed by Ultimecia.
Really, there's nothing more to say. If we continue this particular part of the debate, you will eventually create a theory that makes sense within FF8 and works towards an ending you, personally, want. However, I still do not believe it is a theory Square intended to use, and I feel that FF8 loses a bit of its symbolism because of it.
It's clear that we're not going to be able to convince each other, so I'm going to leave this here. While it has been nice discussing this with you, retreading the same ground is becoming tiring, and both of us obviously remain unconvinced ^_^
So... up for a truce? ^_^
Post by: The SaiNt on 2001-04-18 11:14:00
No point going on...
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-18 17:19:00
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-19 06:24:00
Really I'm just trying to gather some idea's together....maybe I'll write a report on it or something and put it on my webpage.
Hey! you have a point! Ellone had wanted to change the past way before Ultimecia started all that trouble......That was the kinda feedback I was looking for...., come to think of it, she sent Squall to the past before Ultimecia started taking possesion over Edea. At least that's the conclusion I got from the story. Remember when the President was looking freaked out of what Edea was saying, before the parade....like if....the speech was supposed to be legit, or something. Honestly I never understood that speech....The audience had to hear her, right? Why did the parade continue? I would have thought that the audience would have turned against her at that moment, if they payed any attention to what she was saying.
I got to the Space scene you talked about before (seems like a long time ago), and now I know what you were talking about. Ultimecia tells Squall to get out, when Ellone send him to that moment in time, but I can't figure out how that really hurts my little theory.
Regardless, my idea is not totaly abandoned....Remember my idea of Adel getting her powers because Ellone sent Ultimecia and Rinoa into, a young, Adel to start Time Compression? (The Time Compression didn't happen instantly....maybe Time flows the same in all timelines? And that is the reason for the delay?) If Adel never recieved her powers Laguna's timeline would have been greatly altered....
This is kinda cool, if you think about it. It's even deeper than FF7. Too bad Square didn't put any focus into these parts of the game (then again maybe it's just too hard to do it sucessfully, so they decided not to touch the subject.).
Just consider it, for a few moments. If Adel was never a sorceress, then everything would be different. Laguna would have married Rinoa's Mom. Rinoa wouldn't have been born, Squall wouldn't have been born. Garden and SeeD wouldn't have ever existed. Maybe this is what Edea meant about fighting to the end?I'm sure a lot of other things could be found that would be even more intresting. Like what if Ellone would then become, evil.
Evil? How, you say? I just discovered this dialog, last night...when you talk to one of the guys outside Odine's lab, right before you go back inside to get Odine. (It's during the last flashback to Laguna the one where he finally finds Ellone). Laguna tells a story where Ellone put Jam in his shoes. It is then noted that Ellone is a little bratt. I got a real kick out of that dialog, mainly because I never read it before. So maybe she would have been evil, if it wasn't for Laguna. This is way too far fetched though...because then she wouldn't have lost her parents, and wouldn't have a real reason to have that anger. (I brainstorm a lot when I write...and the only time I write are on Forums so everything here is a brainstorm...actually I never thought about any of this until the post on 4-02-01.)
All I'm trying to do is pull more magic out of FF8. I know we can all agree that FF8 doesn't have very much of that stuff. It has it's moments...but they are far and few between.
I guarantee next time you play the game, and think about what I've been proposing....you'll start to see what FF8 could have been or could mean. And you'll noticed that it's not that far of a leap from what's in the game.
....I guess my theory is based more on the alternative dimentions thing you were talking about earlier. Kinda Dragon Ball Z style (the one with the androids.... :D I didn't know about DBZ until Cartoon Network started playing them, and that's as far as they are, currently.).
....I'm only saying that Ultimecia's time gets thrown away, because Ultimecia dies in the past. This leaves an opening for radical thinking. If Ultimecia never returns to her present time (the future) does "that" future really exist? You can take the standard view and say yes it does. Or you can take the radical view and say it doesn't. I'm just trying to put logic behind the radical view.
Does time have an ending? or does it go on indifinitly. I choose indifinitly. Seems most people like the idea of Time having an ending. (To me, looping of time is the same as time ending. What could be worse than
reliving your mistakes? :wink: )
I like to believe that, if you go back in time and change something...the changes will be true changes...and not just fated changes. I like to believe that traveling to the future doesn't matter, but going to the past does. Also, that everything in the past is "locked in" until a TimeTraveler interfers with it. Then all hell breaks lose. I also like to believe that you can only travel to one instant in the past one, single time.
To me, everything revolves around the TimeTraveler. And in FF8 Ultimecia is the Timetraveler, everything else is just a reaction to her traveling to the past. And we, as viewers, are watching the changes through Squall's eye's. A paradox in the making, but never completed because Ultimecia never returns to her present to rein the benfits.
In my idea...Ultimecia's history has no timetravler in it. Ultimecia is the first to travel into the past. It's a very hard concept to put in words and make rules for....but the three rules I came up with are the best way I can explain it.
Thanks to the discusion here, I found out that the main problem to my theory is, How does Ultimecia discover Timetravel in the first place? If what I say is true...then...how? I need to solve this in a way that it can be accepted. It's very easy to say that, everything is fated and forget about the story of FF8 and then say it's just your average Timetravel story......but if I can figure out an explanation it would put a whole new twist on FF8 and add to it's replayablility...at least one more time.
Hey! FF8 is more like FF7 than I thought. The only difference is that FF7 doesn't have an ending, and FF8 doesn't have a beginning. Remember everyone in FF8 land concluded that Edea got her powers from Adel. And it turned out to be false. Now everyone believe's that Ultimecia got Timetravel from Ellone. Maybe she didn't. Maybe it came from a different source. And Ultimecia found out about Ellone during her possesion of Edea and the idea of Time Compression later on. I never thought FF7 and FF8 would be so much alike. (Wouldn't you like that type of aspect from a Square Final Fantasy game? I may not have everything down pat....but It comes very, very close to being a Final Fantasy Story that "Awes".)
Well, "I" think it puts a whole, new light on FF8. And gives FF8 the same mystery that FF7 has....I never denied the default theory of FF8....I'm just looking for reasons to keep it on my harddrive and everyone else harddrive, too.
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances," or "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."
...and sure makings for a boring story. well....guess that's it, then.... I'll go back to the shadows, now..... Heh, heh....At 50+ post, since August, I'd guess that you'll be doing the same :D. It's not, how much you post...it's what you post. (I've own FF8PC since it hit the shelves and I still haven't gotten Eden, Bahmaut or Toneberry, or Doom Train....This run through is the first time I became a friend of the Chocobo's...in the past I would just ride them out of the forest...I never knew that there were hidden items in that forest. I'm going to try to get those missing GF's this time around....I'm curious on what the Summons look like. I wonder what else I've missed in the game.) [This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 19, 2001).]
Post by: Qhimm on 2001-04-19 15:24:00
Post by: Anonymous on 2001-04-20 01:16:00
I see it as Squall still felt that a part of himself was in the past. There was something left he needed to know, so he fell in a time warp and then there was that little scene - I totally agree with ThreeSixty about the sorceress shin dig. Well , he felt secure about leaving. This didn't change his past - it clarified it to him. He went on a search for them, his mind wandered and he walked seemingly unendlessly. He finally came to a rift in time. He falls to the ground with fatigue. Meanwhile Rinoa is running through the field searching. He grabs for a feather, reminding him of her. All of the memories come flooding over him. Everything is blurred. She is slipping away from him. The image of her in space is a horrifying disorientation of a memory. He sort of thinks "What If". He could never live without her. He goes unconcious. She feels the connection and goes to him. I agree with you from that point on.
Anyhow - why complicate it???
Post by: Terence Fergusson on 2001-04-20 02:33:00
We assume Ultimecia got Time Travel from Ellone from Odine's words. Odine tells us he built the Ellone Machine after doing tests on Ellone. It wasn't perfect in his time, but in the future (he says), it has been perfected and Ultimecia has gotten hold of it. That's the thing you need to turn around.
The other point is... I disagree that FF8's story is boring, no matter which way you tell it. It's poorly told, I can agree with that... but...
...the things I *LOVE* about FF8, are the way things all fit together. Small example: Do you remember the movie Laguna made? If Laguna had not made it, Seifer would never have had his romantic dream, or perhaps even be a gunblade expert. And he wouldn't have been as easily led as he was by Ultimecia.
Irvine's reason for not shooting Edea, we later learn, isn't nervousness (although he probably had a good deal of that), but because he recognised Edea as Matron.
The radio interference encompassing the globe, if you read it carefully, contains a message Adel is continually transmitting to everyone... almost subliminally.
It's these small touches... how everything fits together... that makes FF8 for me. Just because I believe that FF8's time travel theory seems to be based on fated past/fated future, doesn't mean it loses any magic for me. (In fact, it's almost the reverse; I respect Square for doing this. Instead of using any old time travel theory since 90% of people wouldn't understand it, they seem to have gone with something that works logically and can be explained... if you look deep enough)
FF8's flaw has never been its story. It's always been in the way the story's portrayed. Most people won't even see most of the details, and even then, it takes several logical leaps to be able to work out most of the hidden details. That leaves the general public mystified... and thus they don't get as much enjoyment from the story as they should. (FF8 also had a few game flaws, but they're avoidable... again, if you know what you're doing)
I don't think FF8 is boring... merely has bad presentation. It should be interesting to see what you eventually come up with though, so I'll wait on that.
Have fun.
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-20 08:14:00
About Laguna's movie and Seifer. I always thought it was the book that the library had. At least I think it was a book. I remember seeing something about it on that classroom console. It said something about, 'the following things have been checked into the library'; then there was a list of things and one of the titles was something about The Sorceress' Knight. And there were other titles about Peppen? or something to that effect. I never figured out what that Peppen thing was. I guess it's that Flying Saucer and the battle where you get his card. I haven't done that quest.
The first time I played FF8, I thought I would be able to read those books. I thought that Square would put it in as a side game or something....like the Mogg Cupo Nut Flying game that was in FF7's Wonder Square. I was also, so sure that there would be a minigame with Zell's hoverboard, but they never used, either in the game. FF8 could have been so much better.....
I never noticed Adel's message...I guess it the part where Squall and party were looking at that big screen TV? Next time I'll pay more attention to the garbled on the Big Screen.
I still enjoy playing FF8. And I understood Squall (most of the people who know me, would probably say I'm exactly like Squall. Luckly, for me, non of my friends are into computer games, or consoles, for that matter.) FF8 is just missing something that FF7 had. I guess, your right, the story arcs were just too small to follow.
I think I missed that part about Odine...really I probably just don't remember it. I'm currently playing the game. So maybe, I just hadn't gotten to that part yet....and if I did...guess I was half asleep when that dialog came up. I'm currently at the part where Selphie and Irvine take control of that Ship....which I can't remember the name of.
I'm not sure if I can find a away around that Odine Statement...other than that his assumption was wrong.....but that's way, too weak to fall back on. Maybe I'll just write a Fan Story about FF8, when I have time. I think I have enough material for one. I'll focus on Ultimecia's Time, and then join it to Squall's. It'll be just like the Fan Stories you see for FF7, but instead of being about the ending...it will be about the beginning.
You know...I remember seeing discusions on other forums, about how that ship was found, so easily, by Rinoa and Squall. It is assumed that it was floating in space for 17 years, with no one caring enough to go out and retreiving it. That Squall and Rinoa just happen to find it, in their moment of need. Well, I saw some thing in a FMV that may be that ship flying towards the Lunar Base. Next time you play the game, play close attention to the FMV that shows those capsoles, that Squall and company took, being retrieved. When the camara pans to the Space Station, you see a Red ship zooming towards it. The ship looks a lot like that ship the....Reanoke? (that can't be right...that' the name of that English Colony that mysteriously disappeared. I always have trouble remembering names. I'll probably remember the name after I sign off, I'm sure.) Anyway, you'll see something that looks like that ship. It very small and it's moving very fast, and it's moving away from the camera, so I'm not very certain that it is the ship.....it's red, anyway.
Of course then the monsters in the ship, and the instruction to kill them, don't make much sense. I guess, just keep your eyes open during that FMV and see if you see that red ship zooming towards the Space Station...and if you think that it may be Squall's ship....(I never noticed it until, now)
I forgot....Qhimm has an FMV viewer, for FF8, on the main page. Guess I can give that viewer a try (on Disk 3) and verify it for myself, it happens pretty quickly, in the game.
[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 20, 2001).]
Post by: Caddberry on 2001-04-20 09:55:00
Post by: Threesixty on 2001-04-21 03:48:00
Post by: Caddberry on 2001-04-22 10:27:00
Post by: M0T on 2001-04-22 18:51:00
Post by: Joey on 2001-05-03 08:08:00
Post by: M0T on 2001-05-03 19:38:00
I mean you would have Tifa screaming 'You Wankers' at the enemy, its not how her charecters come accross in the game. Similarly you would have squall telling everyone how much he loves them.
Post by: wildeyonetwo on 2010-10-28 05:17:58
Post by: Covarr on 2010-10-28 05:27:08
1. You didn't read the rules. This happens pretty often.
2. You read the rules, but thought they didn't apply to you. Since you acknowledged your necropost, this seems likely.
Unfortunately, whichever is the case, it makes you look like an ass. And seriously, nine years? If you'd started a new thread, nobody would have complained about an unnecessary duplicate.
Post by: obesebear on 2010-10-28 05:51:05
Oh also, locked.
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-10-28 13:03:12