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Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: Kudistos Megistos on 2011-05-28 23:51:43
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Parents keep child's gender secret (http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/babies/article/995112)
For fuck's sake.
I love how these two people try to deny the fact that they're forcing their ideologies onto their children and using their children as an experiment.
I also love how they think that it's the horrible media and "society" that does all the influencing, and assume that they aren't influencing their children. Why do their sons want to wear girls clothes and do girly things? Is it because they're being left alone and not "socialised"? Or is it because their parents, perhaps unconsciously, are expressing happiness when their sons do something that defies the male gender role and the children want to do what makes their parents happy? Hmmm? The parents are idiots if they think that they themselves aren't influencing the choices their children make, and I'll wager they get perverse joy from seeing boys pick out pink dresses (take that, gender norms!).
And I love how their "well-adjusted" older son can't cope with the idea of going to school and they encourage him. Perhaps they want their "well-adjusted" children to live in bubbles, kept away from their peers, never communicating with wider society? When, if ever, will the children be old enough to enter the real world?
I'm now taking bets on which one of the three children will be the first to commit suicide thanks to the hopelessly impractical and idealistic parenting choices these two idiots have made. I say "first", because I think its entirely plausible that all three of these children will grow up with such severe sexual and personality issues as a result of this experiment and their alienation from the world that they end up topping themselves.
First that ten-year-old in nappies with an anger management problem and now this. Canadian parenting isn't looking very good nowadays. Maybe their brains are frozen?
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My wife and I were discussing that story a few days ago. Pathetic. I understand that they don't want their children to feel limited by their gender, but there's a limit to how far that should go. Societies have always made differentiations between a man and a woman ever since the first two encountered each other. That isn't going to stop because one couple thinks they know better.
I agree that all they're doing is isolating their children. They WON'T be capable of integrating themselves into any non-transcendentalist society (and we know how those end).
I don't like pieces of the gender construction of modern society, but there are inherent differences between boys and girls. Physiological, psychological, and biological differences that you can't change. They aren't all that extreme, but they exist. Pretending that they don't will only mentally negatively abuse the child. I'm glad I don't live in Canada sometimes.
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Looking at he comments section (full of far-left, post-modernist drivel), I came across the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), a boy from guess where? who was raised as a girl after a botched circumcision and was reported by the psychologist who recommended the reassignment (probably so he could use the boy as a test-case)as a successful case of gender reassignment.
He ended up rejecting his newly assigned gender as a teenager, became a boy again and eventually committed suicide. Successful indeed.
Storm will blow Z's brains out sooner or later.
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Stupid is, stupid does.
This comes off as lazy parenting to me. "Oh, lets not teach our children stuff, lets let them learn on their own"
So if your son wants to stab someone with a kitchen knife that's okay because it's his decision?
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What I love is the fact that the kid is annoyed when people think he's a girl. Someone should tell him that this annoyance would disappear if he dressed like a boy, for Christ's sake.
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What I love is the fact that the kid is annoyed when people think he's a girl. Someone should tell him that this annoyance would disappear if he dressed like a boy, for Christ's sake.
DON'T IMPOSE YOUR PHALLOCENTRIC GENDER NORMS ON OUR BABY, YOU BIGOT!
IF OUR CHILD GETS PICKED ON AND ABUSED FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM! THE REST OF THE WORLD IS WRONG!
The more I read comments from these parents and their supporters, the more I dislike them. They absolutely refuse to understand what part of this experiment that the general public opposes and instead spend all their time labelling anyone who disagrees with them as intolerant. As soon as the story came out, the father was dividing the world into "enlightened people", who agreed with him, and "cavemen" who disagreed. Another thing these people fail to understand is how their smugness might alienate people and how they themselves are displaying the very intolerant "us and them" mentality that they spend all their time teaching children about.
I really can't understand how these people manage to have any friends at all. They seem to be complete arseholes.
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While I think it's an interesting idea, I feel that it's one of the forbidden experiments. Same thing if you gave birth to a child, and locked them in a cage in the middle of nowhere, and gave them food and whatnot 3 times a day, with no human contact, ever, and saw how they developed, a show of true human nature.
Boys and girls are different, not just on a physical level. It's not to say one is better than the other, but we have evolved to adapt in different ways. Why can people not just accept this? I'd also like to note that this is not to say that homosexual or transgendered people are flawed, they're just different in how boys and girls are different.
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You're all acting like it's new or breaking news that the majority of the people living on this planet are of the average intelligence of a brick
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Sadly one comes to the conclusion that there are a lot of idiots in this world. They bring their kids up to be idiots who bring their kids up to be idiots who bring th... wait a second, you get the point.
Some break free. Most don't.
Luckily certain forums online are generally going to have a higher concentration of intelligent people, like this one, since it is a programming/modding forum. But venture onto something like a reality TV show forum... ha, and watch as you lose faith in humanity forever.
@KuugenTheFox
I think what it boils down to is, most intelligent people suspect originally that intelligence is in the majority, and it comes as quite a shock to learn that this isn't the case in general... it did to me as well. For a long time I used to think it was an exception being in my dead end area, but then when I arrived online, I started seeing it everywhere there too and in different towns and cities...
Eventually it hit me that there are far more fools in the world than I thought was possible or logical.
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While I think it's an interesting idea, I feel that it's one of the forbidden experiments. Same thing if you gave birth to a child, and locked them in a cage in the middle of nowhere, and gave them food and whatnot 3 times a day, with no human contact, ever, and saw how they developed, a show of true human nature.
They did this with monkeys, just to see what happened.
They all turned out crazy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow#Partial_and_total_isolation_of_infant_monkeys
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There is also another little experiment like that to show how we devlop religious/supernatural/superstitious behavaiours.
I am probably going to get this story slightly wrong but here goes. As far as I remember they locked mice in a cage and randomly dispensed food. The mice tried to make sense of it thinking it was some sort of pattern which was releasing the food. In the end they were doing bizarre things in the cage believing that to be the required behaviour needed to release the food.
But it was just random.... In that same way, Humans try to make sense of a world that is to them at least, totally random. Like the mice, humans see what isn't there... they associate chance happenings with a general pattern and then try to duplicate this behaviour expecting to get the same result.
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DLPB you got the experiment right. I remember learning about that one too. The rats all ended up performing something akin to superstitious rituals before they'd attempt to get the food - in case that action had been what triggered the food release before.
It's because living things have to be able to recognize patterns to survive. (e.g. "you can find this type of food growing at this certain location." or "eating that particular type of food makes you ill").
Of course, I have to say my turtles haven't figured this out, as they try to eat the rocks in their tank. But higher intelligence animals look for patterns.
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It will end by getting the kid rejected by both genres rather than have both embracing him/her
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its reasons like this i avoided listening to my parents to much.
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[Comment removed.]
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Well, look at it this way. When you were a child what did you do (or rather, your parents let you do)? Also, did your parents leave you in front of the televizion when you were in your diapers? That's probably why you think that way. Most of us cannot avoid it, unless that is, you are sightless.
people give kids to little credit, i hate to try and sound like a martyr by using myself as an example again, but my father was a heavily abusive alchoholic, i resolved though not to let him influence me, some (not all) kids are willing to let themselves be brainwashed by the tv or the parents.
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People should not say the bad habit of their family members :x
not even sure what you mean by that dude.
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He means, 'one should not speak ill of one's family'.
Tend to disagree on three points,
a) the forum is semi-anonymous,
b) our sentiments aren't going to affect JS's father
c) if they did, we'd be in a context where the man could (and should) defend himself
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Well, look at it this way. When you were a child what did you do (or rather, your parents let you do)? Also, did your parents leave you in front of the televizion when you were in your diapers? That's probably why you think that way. Most of us cannot avoid it, unless that is, you are sightless.
I'm not sure how this relates to what I said. Clarify.
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He means, 'one should not speak ill of one's family'.
Tend to disagree on three points,
a) the forum is semi-anonymous,
b) our sentiments aren't going to affect JS's father
c) if they did, we'd be in a context where the man could (and should) defend himself
at the risk of continuing off track, my dad could never defend himself verbally :P but there's a reason he ends up in a jail cell for the night all the time.
anyway, what i'm saying is that parents aren't always the deciding factor
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They seem okay. There are far worse things to do to your children, than let them decide what gender they want to be
Oh, but they're doing far more than that. They're depriving the child of a normal upbringing and therefore making it disabled. If their children have to be shut away from evil society, however are they going to integrate into that society in the future? When (if?) they ever fly the nest, they'll have a massive culture shock and they won't know how they're expected to behave; this will result in an increased risk of being the victim of violent attacks and bullying and a deceased chance of finding a partner or doing well in their career. They'll be like homeschooled children, but 10 times worse.
Their only chance is if someone sets up a commune for people like them and they don't have to deal with the general population.
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All your talk about integration into society is bullshit. It's meant to create people who will respect authority for it's own sake, out of ingrained habit. The world won't end if more people thought their gov't was full of shit.
O RLY?
Most people want to have a partner an raise a family. This requires having a job, unless you're the heir to a massive fortune, and having a decent job requires a decent education. This all requires having a basic knowledge of how your society works. If you don't have that, you'll have a very hard time, unless your goals in life are to live in your parents' basement and play FF7 all day.
I said that their situation would be more extreme than that of home-schooled children; these kids have no opportunity to learn the norms of society. Their parents probably teach them the opposite of how to function in society.
If you don't learn enough to at least pay lip service to social norms and you're not a fantastically lucky or talented super-genius, you'll be a permanently single career underachiever at best, and at worst you'll have to live in the forest foraging for nuts. You might meet Hermoor.
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People who are homeschooled are better equipped to do those things. So, if homeschooling your kids and allowing them to acquire their values from their parents better equips a child to function in modern society than our public school system does, then taking that to an extreme - letting their child experiment and eventually chose it's own gender - should be more so. Mostly because it allows the child to learn about themselves, and what makes them happy, so they can make rational decsions later in life as to what they want to do with their life.
BECAUSE THE EXTREME OF A GOOD THING IS ALWAYS AN EVEN BETTER THING!
DOCTORS RECOMMEND DRINKING A GLASS OF WINE A DAY, SO I'LL DRINK 100 GLASSES. THAT WILL BE 100 TIMES BETTER!
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Ah ha ha, I was waiting for that. Thanks for making me smile.
When it comes to happiness, you can go as extreme as you want, provided it doesn't impact the happiness of others.
But you can't.
Or rather, acting however the hell you want will always cause trouble with other people some way or another, and those other people will want to modify your behaviour, thus making you less happy.
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Getting what you want isn't the secret to happiness. If it was, then Paris Hilton would be the happiest person on the fucking planet.
She doesn't get everything she wants.
She wants love and respect. She gets neither. Because she's a spoilt fucktard.
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I get happiness out of causing severe physical pain to others. I should go for extreme happiness.
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Exactly. And who do we blame for that? Her parents.
Exactly. And why are her parents failures?
Because they raised her in a bubble away from the real world and never taught her how to behave. As a result, she goes around pissing people off and people hate her.
No matter how much money she has, it must bother her that she is so widely hated and ridiculed.
This genderless child will, like Paris Hilton, end up being a figure of fun to all of its peers when it grows up. Everyone who doesn't beat it up for being different will laugh at it for not knowing social norms.
And as I said earlier, this child isn't really getting the freedom to choose. It is being influenced by its parents, even if they're not trying to influence it. I'll wager that their influences will cause it to be a less functional member of society, since they are likely to unwittingly encourage behaviours that will be troublesome in the real world.
EDIT:
Cupcake, you silly boy.
Do you really think anyone will believe that Hermoor managed to correctly spell the name of a mythological figure? You should have spelt it "Hermvgpkisfdjlkgnfd". Then we might have believed that it was him.
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Cupcake, you silly boy.
Do you really think anyone will believe that Hermoor managed to correctly spell the name of a mythological figure? You have have spelt it "Hermvgpkisfdjlkgnfd". Then we might have believed that it was him.
I'm bored and his name came up in discussion on IRC.
No, you should find a submissive.
Not as fun when the reactions aren't genuine.
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Not as fun when the reactions aren't genuine.
What makes you think the reactions aren't genuine?
Make no mistake; most subs don't have an especially high pain threshold, and they dislike it at the same time as liking it.
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What makes you think the reactions aren't genuine?
Make no mistake; most subs don't have an especially high pain threshold, and they dislike it at the same time as liking it.
They always just seem so faked to me. Also, it seems like we're talking about getting sexual pleasure out of this. I meant hurting people just makes me happy. Like... smiling-after-smashing-your-face-in-with-a-brick happy, not cum-on-your-face-after-smashing-it-in-with-a-brick happy.
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Do you really think anyone will believe that Hermoor managed to correctly spell the name of a mythological figure? You have have spelt it "Hermvgpkisfdjlkgnfd". Then we might have believed that it was him.
I admit it, I laughed a little.
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I don't think homeschooling equates to social awkwardness.
As long as your kids are involved in community sports, groups, etc they will still have ample interaction with peers.
There are also network homeschooling options. You can have a group of parents working together, with designated subjects. You can print curricula for coursework covered each year, and create your lesson plans following regulated standards.
When being homeschooled, kids are never held up by "slow learners" in the class. And if they have trouble grasping something, they are provided individual attention.
Obviously it's not for everyone. I doubt I'd have time or money to stay at home and teach my own children, if I had them. But it's not necessarily a life-debilitating decision.
If you're smart, but live somewhere without good education options. Rather than send your kids off to sub-par schools, you can ensure a good education.
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I don't think homeschooling equates to social awkwardness.
As long as your kids are involved in community sports, groups, etc they will still have ample interaction with peers.
There are also network homeschooling options. You can have a group of parents working together, with designated subjects. You can print curricula for coursework covered each year, and create your lesson plans following regulated standards.
When being homeschooled, kids are never held up by "slow learners" in the class. And if they have trouble grasping something, they are provided individual attention.
Obviously it's not for everyone. I doubt I'd have time or money to stay at home and teach my own children, if I had them. But it's not necessarily a life-debilitating decision.
If you're smart, but live somewhere without good education options. Rather than send your kids off to sub-par schools, you can ensure a good education.
Geez, people sure love picking fault with the thing used as an example rather than addressing the point itself.
If people are so butthurt about homeschooling being brought into disrepute, then I shan't use it as an example any more. That doesn't change the point. If these children are being sheltered from society and kept ignorant of social norms, they won't be able to fit in when they grow up.
It would seem that they are being homeschooled, but their homseschooling is unlikely to be the idealised homeschooling that people are talking about here. They're not being raised by normal parents (or parents who pass for normal where they live) and their homeschooling isn't going to teach them what behaviour is considered acceptable by people outside of the homeschool. Quite the opposite.
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If these children are being sheltered from society and kept ignorant of social norms, they won't be able to fit in when they grow up.
I definitely agree with this point, and the point about making it harder to find a mate. Plenty of people who were reared in normal society are still awkward and can't find partners, or even friends.
Setting your kid up to fail at interacting with others (letting him dress like a girl without explaining that others will think he's a girl) is going to make it hard for him to identify with and interact with peers.
The part of the article that made me angry is where they ask Jazz if it hurts his feelings when others think he's a girl, and they talk about how he didn't like being picked on for looking like a girl at school so they pulled him out.
I definitely agree with you there, that this kid will have a hard time interacting with others when he grows up. Puberty is hard enough. Keeping your kid away from others his age is probably going to make it worse.
We are arguably herd animals. We want to feel part of a group (this is due to safety in numbers). Exclusion from a group in the wild, would mean certain death. We still have that horrible feeling when we are excluded nowadays. It's ingrained in us. Yes, sometimes to the detriment of society. But in general, letting your kid feel somewhat normal isn't bad.
So I agree with your point in general.
Actually, that achievement belongs to the Amish.
Oh geeze, don't get me started on the Amish >:(
Now there is a group that really grinds my gears.
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Please share your stories.
lol, it's not really stories. It's mostly what you were saying about inbreeding. I saw this thing on 60 Minutes about Gottes Wille (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/08/60II/main700519_page2.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody). It made me so angry to think that they were continuing to cause their children to be born with such disorders, and calling it "God's Will". Maybe it's God's way of telling you to stop inbreeding!
That and puppy mills.
I actually saw a billboard on my last venture through Amish town. It was a graphic of an Amish woman holding a dead dog saying, "Welcome to the Puppy Mill Capitol!"
I was very glad to see some awareness.
I just feel like their selfish disdain for the lives of others (both of other species and their own offspring) is the antithesis of what you'd think they stand for.
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So yeah, you can around Middlefield, Ohio, and see Mennonites in their headscarves dropping off thier mulitcolored broods (they adopt a lot), and, by all accounts, the kids get along fine and grow into normal, functioning, contributing members of society. They function best in their own subset of society, but there are plenty of kids going to college and graduating without devolving into drunken slobs, obsessive-compulisive maniacs, or complete sluts.
Your argument is sound, but your assumption that society is this giant mononlithic High School is not. Your defined norms are too broad. Are you speaking of the norms of suburb dwellers, where every young man feels that no one takes them seriously? Are you refering to the norms of some other group of people? Does a group of people have the right to decide what individuals of the group can and can't do? What will a person do when they grow up believing that the rights of the group eclipse their own rights in all matters of taste and preference, and everythign in which they have a choice?
Here's a FUN FACT:
Western society is of a Judeo-Christian nature. The differences between the Mennonites and "normal" people, from what you've told me about them, seem to be far more superficial than the differences between the values of these parents and "normal" people. Gender roles are far more fundamental than clothing and use of technology.
And you're talking about Mennonites in the US, no? Americans are very "understanding" and "tolerant" of any lifestyle differences that arise from relijun; they even tolerate Scientologists FFS.
Canada may be full of people with wacky left-wing opinions, but I doubt that these poor children's peers will be as "understanding" of their different values.
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part of being different is dealing with the way society treats you.
being different is not easy, but i for one would much rather be different (i am) then just another drone in society.
you can live in society and not become its pawn.
its learning to live with how different you are, and dealing with the issues that come up, that is the key, mind you i am not saying you should shelter a child who is different, in fact, you should nurture them and allow them to learn how to deal with being different in any way in a society which targets the anomaly in the chain.
take me for example; i was born with clubbed foot on both legs, i have never been able to get up faster then a brisk walk and have never been able to play sports because of it. i didn't sulk and i didn't withdraw from society, i changed my perspective. Because i couldn't have fun the same way all the other kids did, i took up drawing and storytelling. i became a wrestling fan when it was hated, another thing that made people target me, but i didn't withdraw, i learned to deal with it.
If the child is different, the parents should help the child not change, and not hide, but to adapt.
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If the child is different, the parents should help the child not change, and not hide, but to adapt.
But this isn't what's happening here.
The parents aren't helping a child who is different. They're making the child different. Very different. They seem to be doing their best to make it as hard as they can for their children to fit in and integrate into society.
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But this isn't what's happening here.
The parents aren't helping a child who is different. They're making the child different. Very different. They seem to be doing their best to make it as hard as they can for their children to fit in and integrate into society.
oh crap i just realized i sounded like i was defending these idiots. i know they're not, these parents are just plain fucked in the head.
my apologies, i didn't mean to sound like i was defending these... these psychotics.
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I tend to feel that even though those parents are crazy they have the right to raise their children however they want. I don't want to say that should be the case 100% of the time however if anyone thinks we will always agree on how parents raise their kids we will be having that conversation forever. No matter what happens there are going to be some crazy people in this world. No matter how they are raised some people will just be incompatible with others. Again this is not a 100% fail-safe theory but can you really regulate something like this? I feel it would be much more logical to let people live their lives. I am more concerned with how the government acts in certain situations because they are established and should be held to a certain standard.
If we would try to force someone to do something a certain way that is a really slippery slope. We are already slowly getting enough of our freedom taken away as it is.
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They seem to be doing their best to make it as hard as they can for their children to fit in and integrate into society.
Cause they believe their child should be accepted by society not matter how they turn out... Not justifying it, I have some friends who are "the gay" parents. They seem to think Society should conform to them, and could care less what we "normal" people think.
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Cause they believe their child should be accepted by society not matter how they turn out... Not justifying it, I have some friends who are "the gay" parents. They seem to think Society should conform to them, and could care less what we "normal" people think.
So, since they believe that society should accept them, they act as if society will accept them. Fuck reality!
What's next? Nudist parents sending their children to school naked? After all, people should accept nudity.