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Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: gjoerulv on 2013-10-19 01:32:59
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What is the best scene from any rpg!??
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[SPOILERS] Mother 3, when you find out the masked man is Claus and he kills himself.
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Huh... when did I make this topic?
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Huh... when did I make this topic?
;D Has alcohol claimed its latest phantom post victim?
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That is definately and undoubtedly that one moment at the end of the fmv playing right before the final Sephiroth fight! Cloud believes Sephiroth is defeated but he suddenly notices that something is weird. Theres still something left of him inside Cloud, his inner conflict with himself and Sephiroth is not yet solved so Cloud finally settles it.
After he is flying through those nonsense tubes and opens his eyes.....there he is SEPHIROTH! That moment and Clouds facial reaction is definately the best thing ever in any rpg.
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My earlier post^
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I disagree with Rundas. There was so much build up to that scene that you knew what was going to happen.
The end of Tales of the Abyss really got me fired up when Luke ran toward Van while Tear starts singing. It just felt like all the events of the game were finally coming to their conclusion and that everything that happened was all for him succeeding.
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One of my favourite scenes is the ending to Breath of Fire III. It's a simple scene, no frills but has a great meaning in the game. Right at the end, there is a picture of the desert, land that was made so deliberately by Myria to divide people and stop technology becoming dominant again, as well as to kill off the old technological civilization. From what I can remember the place was said to be impossible to support life again, yet, if you defeat Myria (rather than agreeing with her at the end of the game), you see a flower sprouting from the desert. It was a very simple scene, but it worked brilliantly.
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6Z8g3lOJI&t=09m45s
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I disagree with Rundas. There was so much build up to that scene that you knew what was going to happen.
The end of Tales of the Abyss really got me fired up when Luke ran toward Van while Tear starts singing. It just felt like all the events of the game were finally coming to their conclusion and that everything that happened was all for him succeeding.
Perhaps you figured out it was Claus, but you didn't know he would intentionally shoot the franklin badge. I've never heard of Tales of the Abyss, what platform?
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Definitely the changing of the title screen from 'The World Ends With You' to 'The World Begins With You'.
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I expected more ffs here Im disappointed...
What about aerith death/lifestream destroying meteor/tidus disappearing/ju yevon and sins defeat/squalls speech/saving rinoa from the awkward witch prison/time compression/weapon raid/cloud revealing who he truly is/zacks death/supernova(your first time as a kid :D/auron revealing being dead/the truth about summoners revealed/
I could go on for days. Just never would a scene past ffx-1 appear as all those games are shitty. I suppose as they are no longer squareSOFT but enix made which is doom for great games.
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(Aerith goes without saying) Yeah definitely Tidus disappearing at the end. One of the few scenes in film or game that has managed to gain a proper emotional response from me and people I know.
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Yes so true! I can easily tell you why movies can never be as powerful as games. How long does a good movie take? 2, maybe 3 hours ? One of the best and most emotional movies ever is gladiator to me. But everything about it: getting to know maximus, seeing his tragic story, following the new path of his life unto the death of kommodus is compressed in a few hours.
One phrase: "Listen to my story....may be our last chance"
And we DO have the time to listen to it. The first time you play it if you take proper breaks and dont rush it can take weeks to months till youve learned everything ffx shows you about spira. It becomes a small part of your life, you think about tidus and his story every now and then even when you arent playing. A good game can catch you for a quarter of a year and if such a game suddenly takes out your hero that you feel like knowing for all of his life....well thats a tough one ;) Way Harder to handle then leonardo sinking with the titanic or stuff like that^^ I never fell for movies but games can be critical.
Unfortunately no longer today thats why I play classics. Now games are interactive movies. Last actual game is mgs4 to me, ff died years ago.
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Films can't, but a good series can be just as long. Babylon 5 is my all time favourite show, and that did an amazing job of 1 complete story (and is much longer than any game).
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interesting thought. Unfortunately I wasnt very lucky with series so far. Tudors turned out to be some medieval reality soap, game of thrones actually has terribly flat costumes and locations looking most synthetic....I found it only lame^^
Babylon 5...sry never heard I may give it a try!
The only kind of series I like atm is two and a half men and friends:)
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Watch Babylon 5 up to at least the end of the first season. The first few episodes are establishing the main plot. Let me know how you get on!
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Perhaps you figured out it was Claus, but you didn't know he would intentionally shoot the franklin badge. I've never heard of Tales of the Abyss, what platform?
Didn't know?! The entire reason Lucas gets the badge is to counter the "Masked Man's" Lightning attack which devastated you already. There was SO much build up to that final fight that nothing about it was surprising except that Lucas has to constantly heal throughout. At least, I wasn't surprised. I definitely knew it was Claus before the second fight, but I don't remember what tipped me off.
TotA is a gem of a PS2 game and is also for 3DS. Some people say one particular character doesn't act consistently, but I think there's obvious hints to their motives. Heck, I didn't think Auron or Kimhari were well developed in FFX and people still laughed at me for not noticing their story points.
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;D Has alcohol claimed its latest phantom post victim?
Looking at the time I started this... Yeah, pretty wasted... :P
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How not to notice Aurons story point? He is a very important actor in the story and has a very close relationship to the protagonist. Most of the events of the game are triggered or influenced by Auron or at least he was part of it. Remember the whole story of Spira goes the way it does because again someone from Dream Zanarkand traveled over seas to the real one.
Thats Aurons doing as the last thing he did was promising Jecht to watch over Tidus and one day bring him to Spira. Btw Aurons a badass.
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I meant about Auron's spoiler condition not being lead up to. I didn't catch anything that indicated it and there was really only one sign that was subtle.
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Ah ok now I see. Well I didnt see it coming either but actually the hints were more than subtle. If you pay attention at least....
First its Auron didnt want to enter the far plane. I thought its just cuz hes always so cool like he didnt want to share his memories with anyone.
BUT right after that Seymor asking "Why are you still here" was pretty obvious actually.
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I thought it was well done. I didn't think anything of it on first time through. Seymour apologizes that his race are sensitive to the scent of the Farplane too if I remember.
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Yes thats one sentence later. I always liked seymor a lot I think his character was VERY well done. The voice actor is genius its really the first sentence you hear from seymor that makes you react the way tidus describes it later on:
" I knew you were bad news ever since the first time we met" Seymor " Oh...my sinceriest apologies" Haha tidus owned :D
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I also like Seymour. I even made a FFX soundbank for worms armageddon if you play that ;)
Favourite lines
"Your hope ends here. And your meaningless existence with it"
"Death awaits you!"
"Kill them."
"Then pretend you didn't hear it."
Well there are more. I just liked the character and the voice tbh, even though a lot of people seem to have taken exception to FFX voice acting. I thought for most part is was all well done across the board.
I do wish games gave options to turn voice acting off too though.
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WHUUT? :D seriously the voice acting is one of the best things about ffx imo...it makes the whole way the story is told so much more powerful and alive. I can never decide which ff has the best story to me. Somehow ffvii is my favorite but ffx's story is very good, too and in addition to that it has all those great dialogues that are actually spoken. I would prefer turning on voice acting on ff7 than disabling it on ffx :D
Hahaha "Then pretend you didnt hear it was really amazing". Wasnt that when wakka is trying to tell seymor that the military action at mihen using machina was somewhat bad ? First seymor says "pretend you didnt see it" yeah I remember. I also like how you can easily tell that seymor is not as nice as he pretends but at first I believed that he being reckless and having jyskal killed was all of it.
That he turns out a crazy psychopath trying to kill and destroy everything is not absolutely surprising but still weird in a way. At mihen I was still pretty convinced that seymor is actually trying to help spira even if he doesnt care about the methods.
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To be fair the game writers made sure you knew from the word go just by the psycho music haha
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"DEATH AWAITS YOU"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTwUklYtais
I remember I always killed seymor flux with zanmato! I hated when yojinbo automatically pulled out wakizashi and got "death awaits you"ed. :D
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seriously the voice acting is one of the best things about ffx imo
Some of the voice acting is great... and some of it is Tidus. James Arnold Taylor has a history of incompetent voice performances (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0852517/). He's gotten better over the years (he's pretty decent in Johnny Test, even though the show itself is a steaming pile of whatsit), but Final Fantasy X was one of the first roles he got, and his amateurishness really showed. On the other hand, Wakka was played by John DiMaggio (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0224007/), who has a history of absolutely stellar voice performances (including a Joker even better than Mark Hamill or Heath Ledger (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1569923/)).
OT: The best scene from any RPG is all of Chrono Trigger. Pick a scene, any scene, and it will be better than almost the entirety of most other RPGs. And then there's this:
(http://i.imgur.com/h9Stk1d.gif)
Yes, that's right. Chrono Trigger's GAME OVER screen is better IMO than any scene or moment in this thread so far. Really a testament to how near to perfection the game itself was.
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To be fair the game writers made sure you knew from the word go just by the psycho music haha
This is a mark of either bad writing or bad music direction. If you were supposed to know, it should've been obvious without the music. If you weren't supposed to know, the music shouldn't have given it away. In either case, the reveal should be the script's responsibility.
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Not sure I agree with that, it's possible they just wanted to hint at it without making sure you knew.
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Since some great things have already been taken, I go with Grandia (1):
During the game you literally cross the end of the world, a gigantic wall of unknown origin.
On it's top one sees, that it's not the end of the world, but more likely it's beginning.
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I liked James as Tidus a lot. The great thing about ffx was the first person narrator tidus and taylor did a great job imo. "Listen to my story" gives me chills ;)
The guy is pretty genius anyway : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM4RMo0R2Vc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I dont think I could imagine ffx without tidus' voice. I still godda play chrono trigger.
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I feel like Mother 3 would hold up to Chrono Trigger if it was released outside of Japan and more people knew about it. Not that it's obscure, but a lot of people never took the time to play it because they had to patch the translation, emulate it, etc.
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I would actually probably say mine would be when you see Skeith for the first time in Infection. The music along with his speed and invincibility. Not once after facing Skeith did any of the other phases of Morgana give me a sense of fighting a losing battle.
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Have to agree with Covarr here. Chrono Trigger is badass in its entirety. Heck, someone who totally disliked RPGs tried Chrono Trigger and got addicted and kept playing. I was proud.
My favorite scene? Ragnarok busting up Lunatic Pandora. Second place goes to the whole transformation of Balamb Garden University, from the launch in the missile base to the landing in the sea.
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WHUUT? :D seriously the voice acting is one of the best things about ffx imo...it makes the whole way the story is told so much more powerful and alive.
No... I'm not trying to be awkward, but ff10 sucks! FFxii > ffx. The last good ff game imo: ff9! And i'm drunk as shit! ypur welcome!!
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No... I'm not trying to be awkward, but ff10 sucks! FFxii > ffx. The last good ff game imo: ff9! And i'm drunk as shit! ypur welcome!!
I have to totally disagree. :-D
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10 vs 12 on voice acting alone, 12 least beats the shit out of 10. Not to mention most cs. Vaan vs Tidus is like comparing turd and poop, Imo. 12 is a hell less of an embarrassment. 12, In many cases not good, but, nevertheless, a better told story altogether.
Auron don't belong in this mess.
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I prefer 12 over X too, then again I am a self-confessed Matsuno fanboy. As far as Squaresoft goes FFT, Vagrant Story, and FF12 are by far my favorites, although I prefer the first two gameplay-wise, and both have a plot that IMHO puts most of the main FFs to shame.
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10 vs 12 on voice acting alone, 12 least beats the sh*t out of 10. Not to mention most cs. Vaan vs Tidus is like comparing turd and poop, Imo. 12 is a hell less of an embarrassment. 12, In many cases not good, but, nevertheless, a better told story altogether.
Auron don't belong in this mess.
This maybe due to how drunk you are but do you realize you are comparing people that had completely opposite exposure in the games? You can't really say much about Vaan because the most dialogue he had was in the very beginning aside from that he barely interacted with the rest of the cast basically almost being non-existent which is what pissed me off about 12.
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You can't really say much about Vaan because the most dialogue he had was in the very beginning aside from that he barely interacted with the rest of the cast basically almost being non-existent which is what pissed me off about 12.
This. FFXII's script was bare-bones. The character development was non existent, and for a Final Fantasy game that is a critical error. Even among die hard FFXII fans I have debated this with there has been an acceptance that the story itself was completely lacking. The voice acting might have been pretty good (at least Balthier), but the sound quality was poor, and the script was "Hey, we need to get to B, so let's get there! YAY!" The bosses in the game had nothing to do with the plot, because there wasn't one. You'd be walking along when all of a sudden a big tree lizard attacked you for no reason other than "it's a boss" (I really thought we'd moved away from that sort of thing).
I don't want to get into a big debate about this but I guess that's what happens ;D The game-play was lacklustre too imho. Gambits took all the tactics and brainpower away from you; for 90% of the game I survived on 2 gambits as my characters mindlessly slashed away. Random treasure was a silly idea. The areas were great but filled with nothing as you walked for miles on end, and sidequests and user input was down to a minimum.
In FFX you get complete control of your characters and even Summons, you get little quirks with the limit breaks (like entering a code, or pressing button at correct time, or liming up slots). There is nothing like this in XII. It's just one long trudge, and the gamer comes second at all times. Even the AI was lazy. FFXII deploys the most lazy battle mechanic too "Heaps of HP = harder".
It's a complete mystery to me how anyone puts this game above X... I've racked my brain over it a lot, but I haven't got an answer! :-P The only thing it beats X on imho is the graphics (and perhaps voice acting, which doesn't really count as part of a game anyway). Even the music has to go to X.
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Dont drink and debate :D
FFXII has terrible characters, confusing and ridiculous story line and a main character whos just ... uhm not really male. I found xii to be almost as messed up as xiii while x is one of my favorites ever.
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XII is a great game to play for the gameplay (when the dungeons aren't busy being Straight Line Zone, which is sometimes), and the gambit system is hella cool... but I have to agree about the story. I didn't care for the story in X, I thought it was over the top and kind of a mess, but at least it was there. XII's story was like 90% filler.
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I agree with all if not most of your guys points. It was said for XII that they wanted the main character Vaan to give you a feel of you being in that kind of story. Good thing they only kept that around just for XII. I felt XII could of been way better if they just didn't wing it. Also in order to defeat a certain boss you had to pick up an item from regular enemies which was so freaking lame. How am I suppose to know you have to do that.
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Haha, pretty off topic here.
Best scene from any rpg... Hmmm... I must have had one in mind when I started this but I can't remember.
Dont drink and debate :D
FFXII has terrible characters, confusing and ridiculous story line and a main character whos just ... uhm not really male. I found xii to be almost as messed up as xiii while x is one of my favorites ever.
Do I smell fanboyism getting in the way here?
I recognise both as good games (not 13). When calling 10 great and 12 shitty at the same time there have to be something clouding ones judgement.
Most FFs have some confusing stuff that don't makes sense. I bet if I asked a FF10 fan what the deal is with Tidus I would could get a 10 page wall of text answer. And (I don't know if it counts) FF10-2 messed up the story really good. So, Tidus is a dream of the fayth who wants the dream to end? How is he manifested as a real person? As I understand it, the fayth based Tidus on the villain from FF10-2. Then shouldn't his name be the same as that villain? And what about that hot gf summoner that villain had? Did the fayth forget about her or did Auron pick up Tidus before he met her?
The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that there will always be things you simply have to accept in stories like these. The more of the ludicrous stuff you manage to swallow, the more appreciative the story gets.
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I hate FFX-2 story (I haven't met anyone who likes it)... You can't use that to knock X, any more than you can use a FFVII spin off to sully the story of VII
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Fair enough, but it wasn't the point. The point was there is confusing stuff that don't makes sense in both games, and in most, if not all FFs.
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I AM a fanboy of Final Fantasy. But the games enix come up with are not Final Fantasy they just call it that. I dont know any person with an iq>20 who doesnt hate x-2(In fact I dont know anyone like that). Thats the first game not developed by Squaresoft but squareenix. Cant be coincidential...
The assertion that one has to like 12 if x is good is pointless to me. I dont see where they belong together. X is like the old games just with voices and better graphics.
XII continued what X-2 started and what XIII got "perfect": Messed up battle system, stupid characters and a storyline not to care about. Enix is diabolic they kill Final Fantasy, the whole compilation of ff7 is a rapture of my beautiful childhood memories.
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Haha, pretty off topic here.
Best scene from any rpg... Hmmm... I must have had one in mind when I started this but I can't remember.
Do I smell fanboyism getting in the way here?
I recognise both as good games (not 13). When calling 10 great and 12 sh*tty at the same time there have to be something clouding ones judgement.
Most FFs have some confusing stuff that don't makes sense. I bet if I asked a FF10 fan what the deal is with Tidus I would could get a 10 page wall of text answer. And (I don't know if it counts) FF10-2 messed up the story really good. So, Tidus is a dream of the fayth who wants the dream to end? How is he manifested as a real person? As I understand it, the fayth based Tidus on the villain from FF10-2. Then shouldn't his name be the same as that villain? And what about that hot gf summoner that villain had? Did the fayth forget about her or did Auron pick up Tidus before he met her?
The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that there will always be things you simply have to accept in stories like these. The more of the ludicrous stuff you manage to swallow, the more appreciative the story gets.
Answering your question about Tidus. There was a question posed and the creators said that you can't really call him a fayth remake as they have completely different personalities. Remember Shuyin came from an age of war. The dream Zanarkand is just a hallow shell of what the once great city was before war and strife. I think the main reason Shuyin looked like Tidus was because Square noticed how popular he was mostly given to the emotional impact of him and Yuna parting. Also they probably used it as an excuse to make the previous cast have something to aim for as a plot device.
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The game-play was lacklustre too imho. Gambits took all the tactics and brainpower away from you; for 90% of the game I survived on 2 gambits as my characters mindlessly slashed away. Random treasure was a silly idea. The areas were great but filled with nothing as you walked for miles on end, and sidequests and user input was down to a minimum.
It's like Square identified all the worst aspects of MMORPGs - the arbitrary and unfair randomized mechanics, the focus on looting, the fixation on killing numbers of beasts - without figuring out a way to substitute the best parts of those games, namely the feeling of progression, a sense of mastery and the random interactions with your teammates.
In FFX you get complete control of your characters and even Summons, you get little quirks with the limit breaks (like entering a code, or pressing button at correct time, or liming up slots). There is nothing like this in XII. It's just one long trudge, and the gamer comes second at all times. Even the AI was lazy. FFXII deploys the most lazy battle mechanic too "Heaps of HP = harder".
The basic way to play XII is to find an auto-grind spot at the earliest opportunity, wait until you're overlevelled, and then plow through the rest of the dungeons as fast as possible. At least that way you can keep track of the (terrible) story - otherwise, with four or five hours between story points (thanks to dungeon length), you forget what's going on.
It's a complete mystery to me how anyone puts this game above X... I've racked my brain over it a lot, but I haven't got an answer! :-P The only thing it beats X on imho is the graphics (and perhaps voice acting, which doesn't really count as part of a game anyway). Even the music has to go to X.
Graphics? Besides the dodgy HUD design, FFXII is vibrant, sharp, and shows off a consistent art design (I know the Yevon patterns are overused, but they do suggest a coherent Spiran architecture). You can differentiate areas in ways that reflect the game lore and battle animations show great momentum and force. XII's graphics are nothing like that. Muddy, samey dungeons with homogenous architecture; floaty, ineffective battle animations; hackneyed pseudo-Renaissance styling.
Final Fantasy XII is not a good game.
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More random stuff about 10 that I found annoying and/or bad from the top of my head:
The underwater breathing. Or do they hold their breath?
The physics underwater.
Yes, this is fantasy, but we are expected to accept it at face value. If you can accept it, fine, but I reserve my rights to call bullshit on it.
A blitzball as a weapon. Lulu's stuffed toys as weapons. I facepalmed at this. I think I hurt my face.
Tidus' blatant stupidity as a plot device. And also the fact that Tidus is the protagonist. Yuna, Auron or even Jecht would be better choices. I get the first-person-point-of-view narration mode they're going for, still those 3 persons I mentioned are far better protagonist choices. That, or they could have made Tidus a more relatable, and far less annoying person. Who relates to a sport-star crybaby idiot from a futuristic society.
Recycled dialogue every 20 minutes or so. (Sin is Jecht... This is my story... Sin is bad... Zanarkand... blah, blah, blah). This isn't necessarily bad, but imo annoyingly executed.
Stupid hairdos. Wakka... Seymour...
Yuna's resolve to confront Seymour alone was stupid. Not brave, just stupid. In both writing and resolve. She even had at least 2 perfect chances to send him after they killed him. Why didn't she?
The Al Bhed kidnapping summoners. Ok, so they are against summoners sacrificing themselves for the greater good, yet no problem killing of guardians in the process. Rikku's brother had no problem sending a death tank after the party his sister was in. "Hey father, I rescued Yuna but I had to kill Rikku in the process." Cid: "That's fine, as long as Yuna is ok. We can't have her sacrificing herself, now can we?"
The "rescue Yuna" as a plot device. Yes, we are her guardians, but come on... How many times do we need to play the save-Yuna card?
Flow of events considering time. Try to make sense of the flow of time after they kill Seymour for the 1st time, 'til they escape Bevelle.
The snow yeti breaks the ice; you fall more than a 100 feet to your death, yet you survive. Then Sin magically transports you to Bikanel island where Yuna is taken by the Al Bhed. Somehow the Yevon squad manages to get to Home, wreack havoc and kidnapp Yuna before your party arrives. Then they transport Yuna to Bevelle, prepare a wedding before you -who have the only airship in the world- manges to get there. It makes less than 0 sense.
After they crash the wedding they go to the -tediously annoying- cloister of trials to get Bahamut. Why? Isn't it painfully obvious you would get caught there? Even more stupid is the execution by sewer. We know Mika wants them dead (he orders his underlings to kill anyone who tries to escape); why not do it in a more efficient way? It's not like this method is a settled, or preferred form of punishment in Spira. At least as far as we, the audience, know. I may have accepted it if it was foreshadowed more. In the end, this is a double plot induced stupidity moment.
Why did not Auron tell the others about Yunalesca? I don't buy "you wouldn't have believed me if I told you" crap. Then why tell Tidus that Sin is Jecht? In the light of Yunalesca's case the Jecht thing would make sense at once, so why not? Preparing all the guardians for what's ahead, not just Tidus, would be a smart thing to do. The perfect opportunity to do this would be the campfire scene. It would make for a shocking reveal at the same time blend it together with the intro, making it more memorable. Instead we get a "This is my story" bullsh*t repeat. Is this were all those narrations from Tidus happened? And the story 'til now was all a flashback? Did he just narrate his whole trip to the rest of the party? ...Yeah I know it's not the case, but then, who is his narration meant for. We, the players? It doesn't sound like that either: "Listen to my story. This may be our last chance."
The plan to defeat Sin by song. Need I even need to elaborate on this?
The defeat of sin by blitzball and stuffed moogle toys. No one in the history have ever managed to defeat Sin by any means (except the final summoning of course), yet here we are fighting him with medieval (and stupid) conventional weapons. I guess it's expected in the spirit of jrpgs. That doesn't mean it makes more sense and is less unacceptable.
I could go on. In almost every scene there is something stupid, annoying sh*t going on that bugs the hell out of me. Still I recognise as a good game overall, but not because of the story. The themes and messages square tried to get across may be good though.
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Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all. That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine. You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it. The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.
I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.
Here is why I like the story (BIG SPOILERS):
1. Characters. Its absolutely a question of taste. I liked how their personalities were made up of more than one striking characteristic like its done in xii or xiii. At first it seems that way of course: we have the relaxed one, the raging one, the cool one etc. but in the course of the story we learn more about their personalities and personal stories. Aurons intentions are something I found most interesting.
You said Auron didnt tell the party about yunalesca as they "wouldnt have believed it" but thats not what he said. He said "if i told you, would that really have stopped you from coming?"
After you learn all about auron you should get what he means. Everyone just thinks aurons always cool n stuff; the "legendary guardian". Remember on the top of gagazet "I was just a boy about your age. I wanted to change the world, too but I changed nothing. Thats my story"
Plus Auron had a very personal matter with yunalesca as she killed jecht and braska in aurons eyes and of course hinself, too. The reason auron didnt say anything about yunalesca is because he wants the change that he could not bring on his first journey. Nobody celebrates yunalescas death more than auron, to mika he sounds all proud and satisfied "summoners and their guardians will sacrifice themselves no more."
You know the way the party of ffx is. They would have planned exactly who becomes the fayth for yuna and executed it that way without asking if they had been prepared and had the time to think about it. Auron WANTED the big surprise. He wanted yuna to turn her back on the final summoning and kill yunalesca. But thats not easy to talk about if the whole pilgramege is about the acquisition of the final summoning.
2. Zanarkand. I love how the truth about the legendary metropolis is slowly revealed in the course of the game. I found it very interesting and well done. The whole time you think it was time traveling till you find out that tidus zanarkand is physically existent in the ocean outside of Spira and Sin is not some punishment but ju yevons weapon to ensure that humanity will never develop far enough to be able to reach the dream zanarkand. CRAZY! That was most amazing.
3. Twists...dont seem constructed just to have a twist at all. I found the narration very consistent. At first you believe all the stuff about Spira but we can easily tell that there is something fishy about it. Everyone believes sin is some punishment and a religious thing but that was just made up by the order of yevon as they know that sin was created by ju yevon to destroy the machina and keep humanity away from the dream zanarkand. How the game slowly reveals how corrupted and creepy yevon is, all their teachings just hypocritical crap and their highest rank members...dead creepy zombies. That gave me chills I just loved that!
4. Yuna! Shes worth an own point you say its annoying how they keep safing her which sounds like shes some stupid helpless princess. But yuna is stronger and more determined than anyone else, she would do no less for her guardians than they do for her. She accepts her own death, marrying an asshole and turning herself against yevon all for the sake of the people of spira and for her friends. Yuna helps out against seymor, too. Yuna risks her life on the marriage scene to protect her guardians and she decides to finally break the cycle and get rid of yunalesca and the final summoning.
5. MUSIC!! the deep story of ffx is perfectly powered by another amazing uematsu soubdtracks. Ffx is one of his best ones imho which is a matter of taste again...
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Oh no here we go... a dispute! It's usually me at the centre of this but luckily I am pissed! :P ;D
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If someone doesn't like something, and has an argument why, why do people find it necessary to force them to see 'reason'?
So he likes FF XII better than X, why does that make us angry? People should be allowed their opinions.
You can have your reasons why you like or dislike something, but we shouldn't argue over who is right or wrong here, because that argument will lead no where.
There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.
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Hehe, I'm not angry, I find it amusing to discuss these kinda things. Maybe because of the silliness that is opinion vs opinion.
Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all.
You nailed it. ;) I also like food with no taste.
That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine.
Acceptance was one of my key points. To put it diffrently, if the flow of the story feels consistnent, flows naturally, etc, it's easier to swallow it/accept it. If "him" not killing "him" when he "should", it shouldn't have to be accepted at face value. Yuna not sending Seymour after we have been shown her resolve to do so, should, imo, have a reason communicated to the player.
You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it.
I think I was rather specific. Well... specific enough considering it's off topic and all...
The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.
I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.
I criticise design desicion that I find flawed. That is valid when judging a piece of entertainment such as an interactive story. And I was being rather specific about some story elements that can be viewed as a sin (<- see what I did there :evil:), objectivly speaking, considering storytelling.
To make perfect sense is one thing; to make no sense is another.
I do take back what I said about Auron though. In the framework of his character arc it's not that stupid. He wanted them to have a shock reveal. :)
To say something good about 10:
There is that lure twist (Sin is Jecht) that sets the groundwork for the other twists. That was well done imo.
Tidus as a surrogate character. Although annoying as hell, I think the decision to make the protagonist a childish/immature surrogate character was very good considering the framework. Tidus as the avatar for the player works very well, I must admit. Him being immature is also a key design decision that served the story good.
The themes of gnosticism, religion, tradition, etc. The people of Spira have very short timespan to recover. If they're not recovering from Sin, they are preparing for Sin. This is pretty much their entire life. If you manage to adopt their mindset, you can't really blame their incapability to end the spiral of death. This puts the whole religion and tradition themes in gray zone, moraly speaking. It's their way of struggling to keep head above water. It's all they know.
FF10 had easily the biggest potential to be the best FF story. A few weird decisions broke that potential.
The best scene in 10 is probably the scene with Yunalesca <- somewhat on topic :P
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I see noone angry and no dispute. Just discussing/debating. I force noone to have my opinion I just made my points clear. Only cuz something is subjective doesnt mean you cant talk about it or that you have to listen to anything people say about your evaluation without commenting. I just made some points on ffx clear to show my friend here that it is absolutely possible to love x and hate xii without being drunk, clouded or not honest about your own opinion in any way.
If someone thinks Im wrong and still doesnt believe its no rage or dispute saying that back and I force no opinions at all if I come up with more points about the game in response then.
I seriously dont understand those reaction, relax guys we're cool and even if gjoerulv disagrees with me 100% Id take a bet he is as relaxed as I am- nobodys angry here.
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There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.
I disagree with that assertion. There are numerous flaws in XII that simply don't exist in X or other Final Fantasy games. Personal opinions are made up of facts and observations. A blanket "It's all opinion" won't cut it.
For example, the character development of XII being lacklustre isn't an opinion. It is something we can all see and we can compare it to the other games and point out the numerous issues with it and the story. Gambits may be a matter of taste, but what isn't is that it takes control away from the player. Now in my view that's a criminal error for a game to make, because a game should be giving you more control (FFX you could even control the Aeons). In XII there are no quirks or clever mechanics... it is all hack and slash, and the majority of that all you are touching is the "up" control.
People enjoy games for different reasons, but I'd suspect the large majority of people who take exception to XII do so for the same reason as me., namely the bare story and plot, disastrous pacing (it really is bad), non existent character development, and reduced game play value in favour of "gambits" auto-slash characters.
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I enjoyed the combat in FFX, especially the final battle. I didn't really care for much else in the game.
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I remember plugging up my ps2 for the first time and putting in ffx; the fmv with the black mages playing in the background and Auron looking like a badass really hyped me up.
But somewhere around the point when Seymour starts to become more prevalent in the game I quit playing. He just looked sooo silly to me.
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He looked at Sephiroth's hair and decided to boost it a little. I wonder if Seymors haircut is somehow physically possible :D
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Ask the punks from the 70's-80's, lol I think they used to use gelatin and bees wax to keep their mohawks so high.
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Yes but did they have branches in multiple directions ? I wonder if that can be done somehow :D
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Imagine Seymour with a mohawk. Ar a reversed mohawk. :mrgreen:
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All I meant was, whether something is good or bad artistically, intellectually, etc... Isn't the problem. Rather, that's all good and fine, but just because someone likes it when others don't we shouldn't get mad at someone over that.
I thought FF XII had interesting ideas, awful execution and not enough character development, but I didn't /hate/ the game. I found aspects of it charming. In fact I argued once, if the name Final Fantasy wasn't in the title the game wouldn't be getting nearly so much hate. -Edit- I never finished XII, ultimately because I felt the story fell flat. I do not like it as a whole. -Edit done-
However, I do not want to be a part of a bigger debate. All I meant is we are allowed our own tastes and opinions.
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How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8? Anyways, the biggest problem for me about ffxii was that it seemed like Vaan and Penelo didn't need to be there and seemed to be added into as an after thought. I always thought Balthier really should have been the lead of the game. Yeah, and as mentioned before the horrific amount of MMO-like grinding required in that game. Ffx's main problem for me was Tidus's voice actor. My god hearing him speak was unbearable. If I had to choose, ffx>ffxii because of battle system
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FF8 may have had a few plot issues, but the character interaction was very strong. The characters were also interesting, and the story kept you interested. The garden battle sequence was superb, as were most of the set pieces. It had a lot going for it even if it wasn't perfect. 8-) It certainly wasn't entire open areas separated by a few lines of dialogue for over 20 hours.
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How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8?
Because FF8 at least got off to a VERY strong start. The first act was great, the second act (discs 2, 3) was... okay, the characters (except Squall) were well-defined and interesting the whole way through (even in the abysmally stupid final act), and even the parts of the story that didn't work were at least well-presented.
In Final Fantasy X, you effectively play as a sidekick. Tidus is certainly important to the story, but when it comes right down to it, this is Yuna's story (in spite of what Tidus himself actually says). This works okay, especially since Tidus has a fairly strong subplot disguised as the main plot for a large chunk of the game, and since Tidus goes the entire time thinking he's the star even at points when he's clearly not. It's slightly problematic, especially if the player puts themselves too much into Tidus' shoes and agrees that he's the main character, but it works well enough for most players.
Final Fantasy XII forces the player to see the story unfold from the point of view of a character with virtually no actual involvement. The dungeons are effectively filler segments, between cutscenes, and the Vaan's main purpose is to witness a story going on around him. He's got his own internal conflict, but it has virtually nothing to do with the main plot. Honestly, the way this game was written, it's almost as though Basch was originally going to be the main character and Vaan was a last-minute addition (http://www.ffring.com/articles/divers-sortie-francaise-de-Final-Fantasy-XII.html). It's only reasonable that when the protagonist is tacked on like this, people will get annoyed with the story; even if it had been a good story (it's not), it's told through the wrong POV, which really ruins the pacing and storytelling.
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Its because FF8 has good characters. Same for x, but unlike xii. Thats a significant reason to many players and probably why many ff fans like 8 and x but not 12.
Although most story events after disc 1 are senseless(which made this squallsdead theory come up that I quite appreciate though I know its not Square's intention) I love playing the story as Squall is amazing and the music is among the best of all time imho.
I also like the much hated junction system. It was very dynamic and allowed more ways of getting powerful and beating bosses with little to no training than ff7's materia system did. There are thousands of combinations for materia setups but as most are similiar or useless its more linear than it seems at first.
I go for 7>8=x>rest
8 for gameplay and characters, x for everything related to the plot and 7 for everything about the game plus the modding fun xD
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@Covarr: I agree with your assessments of 10 and 12 for the most part, I just don't see where they fall behind 8's. 10 in particular I feel surpasses 8's story in every way. The beginning of 8 (before it gets way too convoluted and stupid) I felt was in the mediocre-good range but still nothing to vault it over 10. I'm not trying to bash it, I guess I just feel like most people find the stupid parts of 8 acceptable or at least excusable because of something that justifies it. I find that most of the problems with 10's story are excused by my subconscious because of the supporting cast (auron in particular) and a wide variety of factors including just how creative the story got without plummeting into nonsense, like with 8. I haven't found anything like that in 8's story, so I guess I would just need someone to way the pros and cons of the story and explain why the pros outweigh the cons.
@meesbaker: I was mainly talking about the story of the game, because I do appreciate aspects of the game such as freedom and places to explore. But I personally fail to see where 8's characters are interesting to be honest. I don't want anyone to take offense to this, but I like the story and characters somewhat of every final fantasy bar 1 & 8. I will list how the game made me feel about the characters for the duration of the "good" part of the story, before the game becomes too stupid ( for lack of a better term) to pay attention to.
In my opinion, selphie is the worst of all the annoying girls in her archetype. (Rikku, Penelo who was useless and pointless but less annoying, Yuffie, etc. are all less annoying to me).
Zell is completely unlike able and says the most stupid sh*t all throughout the game (like Tidus but worse)
Quistis I actually liked because she seemed to be the most calm out of the group without being too inactive (maybe there were two other large reasons I liked her as well lol)
Rinoa was unlike able chasing after the d-bag that is seifer for the first part of the game and I guess the dislike stuck with me as the story got progressively worse.
Squall is the epitome of what people hate about post KH1 (first appearance of emo cloud) cloud. I feel like every negative people have for advent children cloud or dissidia cloud or any appearance in which he is some quiet, loner, emo, whiner was done to an even greater extent with Squall.
Irvine is actually built up to be somewhat like able, only to find out he is an unlike able coward. (Can't pull the trigger is the biggest and most obvious example)
Edit: @DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better than 10's in your opinion? As I mentioned above, I wasn't impressed by the majority of the cast of 8 and the story in fact did not keep me interested. After the first disc it almost became painful, a chore to read the dialogue boxes (which I do obsessively in ff4, 6, 7, and 9). Like I said to Covarr, maybe I just someone (you perhaps?) to list the pros and cons of the story in detail so I can gain some better perspective on why the story of this game is so unanimously defended. I'm not saying it is objectively awful, for obviously I am in the minority. I just feel so out-of-loop when people constantly bring it up as a way to exemplify story-telling that modern games should take note of. People say square was better at story telling during the likes of 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9, and I am always puzzled by the inclusion of 8 on the list of great story telling.
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@DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better that 10's in your opinion?
Well if you start FF8, the first thing that happens is you see 2 guys having an awesome sword fight. They both get cut. Then one wakes up in hospital (your character) and you learn that the other guy is Seifer and was your combat partner. Within 5 minutes you have seen a mysterious lady at the window (Ellone). So the game within 5 minutes has already given you 2 main things to think about.
You expand out from there to learn that you are training to be a SeeD, and from there you are sent on a mission to Dollet and Deling where you eventually lose Seifer to a sorceress. Along with everything else that happens during this period, there's no denying that a LOT of people, myself included, will be interested in that story. It has a lot of things going on, and for me it was fun. The ending, as Covarr said, with all that time compression nonsense, was badly done, but it was not a deal breaker. It was a slight flaw in what was a pretty good story about how a damaged boy learns to love again and let go of his past. I also liked the final Causality Loop twist where you learn Squall was the one who started Garden and the SeeDs.
I mean, yes there were flaws, but the main story was interesting to me. It asked questions all the way through, and let's not forget the dream sequence with Laguna, where you are trying to fathom what on earth is going on. You learn that this is the past and that Ellone can send you there looking through the eyes of another. FF8 kept you wondering and guessing, and that's what a good story does.
In terms of what FF8 did story wise better than 10? It's hard to say because they were both solid stories with good characters. But I'd say FF8's characters were better than 10's overall. There is a proper internal rivalry as well with Seifer and Squall, where none exists in 10. And yeah, 10 has a more convincing story with less plot holes. I loved both games.
None of the games I have played have beaten FF7 though. My favourite games in terms of story are:
FF7-FF10-FF8-FF9. That's the order I'd put for them overall too (although FF9 gameplay was superior in quite a few areas and was damn fun).
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I don't know about story wise, that's a really hard decision, but overall, FF9 is my favorite. There are no nostalgia shades over my eyes because I didn't play any FF's until I was about 18. FF9 has very distinct, but also dynamic characters. Dagger is the most obvious example. It also had the best music of any Final Fantasy in my opinion, which greatly enhanced the gravity and seriousness of some of the events in the game. (i.e. Burmecia, Freya's love story, Vivi's existence). The combat was also very straight forward, but varied and challenging as well. Each character had a clearly defined role, but there are a lot of combinations between characters and battle interaction. I also absolutely love the equipment/ability system and think it paces your ability to become overpowered and also encourages varied play and layouts (i.e. changing abilities to fit the situation).
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A big plus to FF9 from me is the fact the design team realised bigHP does not equal Difficulty. Using 2 byte upper limits for HP amounts worked just how it should when you design your game around it.
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Yes, a game's difficulty should not be dependent on your level or how much you grind. You should have some involvement past clicking Attack Enemy A 50,000 times.
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I disagree with what has been said about Zell. He has nothing to do with the TROLOLO chara like Yuffie. He is brave enough to do anything for his friends(remember the galbadia prison) and among all the shit hes talking there is a lot of smart stuff in there. In the beginning youre supposed to think hes an idiot as squall tells you and as he always has beef with Cifer. But in the course of the game you learn that he has the most clue of the world of ff8. He knows a lot and handles machines :D
Remember on the bahamut island squall" maybe I should give this guy more credit".
I also didnt find him annoying at all, in fact he is actually squalls strongest and most reliable seed. Remember who leads the troops in the courtyard during the garden fight. Who squall trusts to save Rinoa, who leads on the attack against the Galbadia Garden, who looks out for edea while squall is in space....
I liked Zell quite a lot he stands for his friends and families and he has a cool fighting style and limit breaks. Dont see his connection to Yuffie. Yuffie knows nothing useful, literally talks shit and is there to troll the party. Id love to see Zell smack Yuffies face lol :D
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@DLPB: Fair enough, maybe I just had too big of expectations for 8 because it was one of the last ff's I played, (I've played them all in the main numbered series excluding the online ones), and since it was so beloved I expected to fall in love with it like I had with 4, 6, 7, 9, and 10.
@meesbaker: I only mentioned Yuffie as reference for the archetype of Selphie, that reference had nothing to do with Zell.
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Yes I see it now. And youre right there, Selphie is useless. But nothing is as terrible as Yuffie. I hated her steal my materia >:O