Qhimm.com Forums
Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Synergy Blades on 2002-08-18 00:16:10
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Hey :D
After posting in the A-Levels thread, thought I'd say a proper hi to you all. :) I wanted to say, big thanks for a great resource site, basically, I didn't know getting into the Final Fantasy data files was possible, now I've got the original models to do some hi-res versions from. :) Me, I love 3D graphics, and of course, Final Fantasy 7!
Anyways, thought I'd show you a couple of preliminary images I did of Nibelheim. It still has a long way to go, but the basics are there; I'm going in to add some detail next (I've started adding detail at the entrance to the town) including mountains ;). Then it's texturing, then lighting, and perhaps a few fly-through anims. ;) The images are low quality so you'll see blotching and aliasing, but they render more quickly that way and they are tests. :)
My server's being kinda crappily slow so I hope this works. :)
Entrance to Nibelheim:
(http://www.alderley-edge.com/ed/nibent.jpg)
Arial shot of Nibelheim:
(http://www.alderley-edge.com/ed/nibarial.jpg)
So thanks again, and I hope to stick around this great site and forums. :)
Edit: k, this could have gone in "Completely Unrelated"!
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Actually, this kind of stuff (FF-related) is ok to put into the general forums.
It sounds good, but your server is either down, or I just can't access it. Either way, I can't seem to see the images. Could you put them somewhere else, or zip them up and send them to me? Thanks!
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Wow they are great. Looking forward to seeing them finished!
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I'll just reproduce the sound I made when I saw them: WHOA. Excellent work!
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Yupp, that DOES look good. I think modellers can be useful for us, too??
Oh, and welcome!
- Alhexx
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Hey scrap the remake.... how about Final Fantasy VII 3D 8)
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Hi Seph - it should work now, my hosts tell me they've fixed the problems. :roll:
Thanks for all your comments. It's slow work but in my opinion very rewarding. :) It's a bit too polygon-intensive for that, Jedi :wink:
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Awww... it would av been interesting though.
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Wow. These images are really good. Just out of curiosity, what 3d program do you use?
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I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to get my hands on those models... You've done something I've always wanted to do, but never had the time. I congradulate you. If you need help texturing, let me know. I'm pretty good at that...
What program did you use? I'm also curious...
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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I used MAX. I think from reading Seph 3D's posts he's not a big fan of the program ;)
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Where did you ever get an idea like that? :wink:
Truth be told, I can live with MAX, but I perfer Lightwave. Forutunatly, I know enough of MAX in order to export it's models into Lightwave. (Saves me some time trying to remember how to use Max's modeling functions. God I hate them... :evil: )
Ahem... Can I get ahold of those models? :roll:
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Lightwave.. ah, the one I try to avoid like the plague ;) Seperate modeller and scene layout? Whose idea was that one? :wink:
Hmm. Lemme finish the scene first, then I'll think about it. :)
I'm just working on the Inn at this moment in time. As I've created the windows on it I had to hollow out the inside of the box - and so I've realised I will also be able to model the insides of the buildings too :D So once I've finished the detailed outside, I may consider doing the insides as well ;)
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Hey! That idea has saved my butt more times than I can count. Not to mention the tons of actual KEYBOARD commands I can use. Plus MAX can't beat LW's MetaNurbs. :wink:
Don't feel like this is a one-upsmanship. I don't hold a grudge against you, or MAX. I just like the design and tools in LW more than the ones in MAX. That's all there is to it.
Here's a helpful bit of advice: Don't model the insides & the outsides as a single model. I would suggest just using a flat panel on the inside of the window, or a small, skewed box, mapped with images from the inside model of the place. It makes rendering faster, and it'll be easier to model.
One of the reasons I want your model is so I can use it for my new FF7 webcomic Final Fantasy 7 Theater (http://www.sephiroth3d.com). It'd be better than using the in-game image. Don't worry, you'd get full credit for the model & everything. I always state my resources.
One last question: How long has it taken you to build this much?
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Hey, and my favorite Modeller is Ultima! :D (hm ... since last version you're also able to save the renderer screen, cool, huh?)
But I don't think Ultima can really compete with MAX or LightWave... hey, has anybody heard of gmax?
- Alhexx
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Hey, Seph, I see a lot of interesting newings on your page... let's take a look at that webcomic... :)
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Hey, Seph, on which Server's your site hosted??
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Really nice; Welcome Synergy Blades !
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I don't hold a grudge against you, or MAX. I just like the design and tools in LW more than the ones in MAX. That's all there is to it.
Don't worry, never thought you did. ;) I agree MAX sucks when it comes to the NURBS/Subdiv department but I love it's polygon tools. I do switch programs if it comes to organics, though.
Don't model the insides & the outsides as a single model. I would suggest just using a flat panel on the inside of the window, or a small, skewed box, mapped with images from the inside model of the place. It makes rendering faster, and it'll be easier to model.
Cheers for the suggestion. I have to make the building hollow anyway because otherwise the windows won't appear correctly (the building will get in the way). Since I'm not going to model the insides until after the outside is complete then I can decide then how to go about the insides - whether to model it in the actual scene or to use your suggestion. Think how cool it would be though if I were to model the insides on the same scene - a fly through starting outside and then going into Cloud's house, perhaps? 8)
One of the reasons I want your model is so I can use it for my new FF7 webcomic Final Fantasy 7 Theater. It'd be better than using the in-game image. Don't worry, you'd get full credit for the model & everything. I always state my resources.
Sounds pretty cool - I'll give it some thought. :)
One last question: How long has it taken you to build this much?
I've lost track of time (I'm on holiday!) But I'd say in total I spent a couple of days at least modelling the basics that you see in those images. I keep moving objects round and changing things until I get them as precise as I want (and I often spend far too much time doing this :roll: )
Hi mirex, and thanks for the welcome! :)
Gmax does sound like a great free 3D modeller for games - anyone tried it? I know it disables things like MAX's plugins though.
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I've lost track of time (I'm on holiday!) But I'd say in total I spent a couple of days at least modelling the basics that you see in those images. I keep moving objects round and changing things until I get them as precise as I want (and I often spend far too much time doing this :roll: )
Welcome to the "We spend too much time on FF7 Club" :P
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Considering how I don't have the money jto buy either Max or Lightwave, I think I'll have to stick with good old Povray. (Although I am considering a student version of LW.)
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renderguy: ... or you can use freeware Ultima :roll:
- Alhexx
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Whoops, my quote wasn't going out to Rubicant, but to renderguy... thanx, FFTactic_Boy !
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Interesting work. Very impressive. Seems that this forums is getting a lot of FF talents.... seriously :)
Alhexx, I think it was renderguy.. not Rubicant.. or am I wrong? :P
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:o A few DAYS?! Wow... It'd take me at least a week to get that much. Course, if I had more free time, I could do it in a few days, but...
Build inside, so the window looks right? Whaa?
Here's an example of what I was talking about:
(http://www.sephiroth3d.com/stuff/window-demo.gif)
Flying scene: That's what After Effects is for. There is no need to build the inside within the outside model. It would be a VERY bad idea. I speak from experience here...
Alhexx: Is says who hosts it at the bottom of my site. (Any page.) But in case you missed it:
Sephiroth 3D.com is hosted by the wonderful people at CoastlandTech.com (http://www.coastlandtech.com).
Renderguy: Student version (I hear) is identical to normal LW, except in price. I know that Student version of MAX has a "For Educational Use Only" popup window, but I don't know if LW's version has one...
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Build inside, so the window looks right? Whaa?
Lol, I don't understand myself sometimes. ;) I had to cut it that way so that when I made the window frame it would fit in somewhere - without the hole, the window frame would have just sunk into the side of the Inn and you wouldn't have seen it! So, the way I decided to do it was hollow out the buliding first and then cut a hole in the side to fit the window frame in.
Here's an example of what I was talking about:
Yes, I guess I could have done it like that and just stuck a texture map on the inside. I just hollowed out the rooms while I was there because that was my thinking at the time. ;) I've finished the Inn except for some pipes on the roof, and the two levels (upstairs, downstairs) are hollow. I'm not saying I have to go in and do anything with it - and if I don't, I'll take up your suggestion and put in some maps. But it's there, if.. if you know what I mean. ;)
Flying scene: That's what After Effects is for.
I don't understand how you would use AE for fly throughs - say I wanted to start just outside Nibelheim then go to Cloud's house (the doors are open) and then go inside - how would you do this without getting a 'seam' somewhere where the two 'parts' meet? I don't use AE often so any help you could give on how to achieve a fly through using it would be great.
There is no need to build the inside within the outside model. It would be a VERY bad idea. I speak from experience here...
I've done a train station before in similar fashion - I modelled the insides of the station buildings as well as the outside. It worked rather well I thought :) Which reminds me, I haven't actually finished that - it's on my "to-do" list after this (so are a lot of things! ;))
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Ahh... You just had to boolian an window hole. But why hollow the hole thing? Seems like a waste of time and effort if you ask me...
Here's the cool thing about AE: It's purpose is to make it impossible to detect a "seam"! (It's compositing software.) What you'd do is design a camera move into the house. The whole scene should have an alpha of 255. Inside the house on the outside set, it should have an alpha of 0.
You then copy that camera move to the file with the inside of the house. Render both as TGAs. (Outside as 32-bit, inside can be 24.) I then take those renders, dump them into AE, a bit of compositing work, and you have a seamless camera move that looks like the camera goes from the outside of a building, to the inside of it, when in reality, it's two completely different scenes.
"Why do all that work?" You ask? Simple. Render-times. When it's inside, it doesn't need the outside information, and when it's outside, it doesn't need the inside information. Without that information, it has less to calulate, thus resulting in lower render-times.
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Im no 3D modeler, but as a programmer, i think there should be this possibility: inside / outsie should be modeled as a different objects/groups, and their visibility should be switched as needed. Can it be done ?
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Yes, it can be done, but just having it in the scene will increase render times, even if you don't see it. It may not be by very much, but it WILL increase render times.
I still say the 2-parts method would be better. Another advantage: You won't get confused as easily when trying to setup a shot. Yet another advantage: The Inside doesn't have to conform to the outside.
And I just like to point out that they DID what I suggested in FF7! Do you think that window to Tifa's room in the Lifestream/Flashback part was all one set/model? I seriously doubt it...
Sephiroth 3D @ School
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I doubt it too. ;) I'm not even going to come to the insides for quite a while yet so I don't need to worry about how to go about it just yet. :)
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love the pics mate
and welcome,
u guys thinking what im thinking???
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I think I was thinking the same Skillster... but its too "polygon-intensive" :weep:
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I'm thinking I want some totally-chocolate-coated Jaffa Cakes... is that what you're thinking? :wink:
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jedi mark: i wasnt thinking that.
but u know wot, reduce the number of polygons, OR use guroud shading to remove the need for texturing then i think it can be possible :)
but i was thinking more remake, just imaging that neiblheim with texture mapping, heh, a few shots of that at 800* 600 would be nice for backdrops in FF7:Remake, or adding FMVs to indicate motion to a new camera angle
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I doubt even reducing the polygons would make it suitable for an interactive version - if I'd know someone wanted to use it as such I would have set out from the start to make it low polygon. ;)
I can do shots or FMVs for the Remake, if you'd like. :)
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Truth be told, I've been thinking about that ever since I first saw you images. I kept thinking: "We could REALLY use that model for the remake..."
I don't know why I didn't say anything... *Slaps himself*
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Don't underestimate 3d cards, y'know ... even an not-so-powerful card nowadays can push a few million polygons per second. Texturing doesn't slow things down *too* much either; since everything uses textures, it's something that the manufacturers make sure is *very* optimised ;)
Sure, it might need tweaking to render real time ... but bear in mind most 3d programs render slowly because they're doing calculations in software to a much great precision than 3d cards do. The end result is more accurate (realistic, kind of) but slower ... you might be surprised at the speed a 3d card could squeeze out of it just by dropping some realism ;)
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A lot of the "dropped realism" you wouldn't be able to notice, either.
:P
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This whole so-and-so-many-polygons per second way of measuring is kind of misleading, since it doesn't put into account the frame rate. If you have a scene with that many polygons in it, you get a frame rate of 1fps... :) Then again, I don't know how many polygons that Nibelheim scene is.
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According to File > File Properties:
Vertices: 86287
Faces: 168964
That's not bad considering I've pretty much finished working on the detail for the Inn and the Store next to it - I'd have thought it was much more than that to be honest. Anyways, on to Cloud's house next. ;)
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Wow... That IS good. And you probably haven't even optimised it yet, huh? Can we get an updated pict? (400x300 would be fine...)
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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I'm gonna wait for a bit, at least til I get all the houses done before I put another image up. ;)
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Well, if we take that at ~150K polygons with optimisation, something doing 3M polygons/sec would render the scene at 20FPS...
OK, so you'd want to optimise it far more than that ... but it's not beyond the realms of possibility, is it? ;)
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Not at all. We'd take the High-rez version, and make maps & a low-rez version out of it for use in the game. This will probably be the technique we'll use for the new battle areas, when we start doing that.
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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Ah hell, that smells like there will have to be some nice additions in Ultima to create new battle locations ... hm ... but I'll leave that rendering-fps-problem to you :D
- Alhexx
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[off-topic]
I see what's happening to my avatar:
My host's changing hard drives at the moment, so my avatar's unavailable like my site... but this *should* be fixed soon...
[/off-topic]
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Course, there are cards that can hit more than 3 million triangles/second, I think... and um, the remake won't be done for a while, we know, so by then, there'll be even fancier cards out :P
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It isn't too graphic intensive! Honestly...
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Hey, I don't suppose you can use some of that 3D modeling skill to give the character models themselves (at least the battle models) a high-res update? :wink:
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ahh... but then you'll have the debate: Go for the classic look, or update it. Personally, I HATE the idea that they're updating the graphics for the PSX FF1 re-release.
Sephiroth 3D
"Macintoshs are to Computers as Spam is to Food." - Greg Higgins
Sephiroth 3D.com (http://www.sephiroth3d.com)
[email protected]
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I wasn't talking about texturing them, though. IIRC, someone here said that the hi-res models of Sephiroth and Cloud didn't use textures (excluding the face textures, of course), yet they were amazing compared to the standard models that also didn't use any textures.....
Waitaminute.......I just got an idea. You know how most FPS games like RTCW have options that allows the user to control the model complexity? Why not implement something like that in the config?
Want the classic look? Choose "Low Detail models". Feel like you're missing out graphically? Choose "High Detail models". Simple as that, for avoiding the Conundrum. :D
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I kinda like updated graphics (for things like FF1) as long as it doesn't look stupid and doesn't interfere with gameplay at all (the gameplay needs to be exactly the same as the original). Like, SMB1-3 in Super Mario All-Stars is a good example.
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I do want to do a high-res Cloud at some point (hi-res as in, like the one on the FF7 box, perhaps with real eyes, but not like Squall-style FF8 realism). I'm just so damn busy at the moment, and I want to finish Nibelheim first. I haven't worked on it in an age. :(
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Two Words to solve the intensiveness problem...
Programmable Shaders
Sure, you'd need to make it a bit low-res, but no problem as I see it :D
Now, to find someone who knows how to do that...
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Uh, two more words are required for that:
"Proprietary hardware"
Not everyone here has the top of the line vid cards (I mean, look at me, I'm still using a Voodoo3! Proud of it too, for what its worth :P).
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*misses his voodoo 3*
*got tricked into buying radeon 7000*
radeon 7000=radeon VE
radeon VE=1/4 power of original radeon
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Geese, I've got an old Geforce2 Pro and it can do all that stuff fine (gets faster and faster with each new driver release...)...
If I were you I'd spend the 30-40 bucks to get one :D
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Except that if you were to buy a new gfx card anyway, you might as well get one that at least has hardware support for the new stuff like vertex/pixel shaders; 'cause if the graphical requirements of Doom3 are going to become the norm, then that GF2 you bought as a "quick fix" is gonna seem like something you cheated yourself on.
Oh, and speaking of hardware support, I got a little more information about that new driver set being developed by 3DHQ. Appearantly, that T-Buffer is gonna come in handy in giving what looks like hardware support for Anisotrophic Filtering. Currently, the V4/V5 can't do AF, but its possible to use the Jitter points that are normally used for FSAA to be used as the samples needed for AF.
So, what you get with this is an added feature that is supported 80% in hardware, since it's not total hardware support, but more of using other hardware features to emulate it.
Oh, and with that method, they theorize that you can do both FSAA and 32tap AF with little or no performance hit (meaning the performance hit the AF will cause w/o the FSAA is the same as when both are on, essentially meaning one of those features is being done for "free").
But, enought with that. Let's get back on topic, people! :D
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Let's get back on topic, people! :D
Okay ;)
Here's the latest; got as much done as I could be bothered doing at the time on the main models :D I've had so little time recently to do anything on it, so it's no major update I'm afraid... sure everyone knows what I mean :weep:
This one's a slightly older version so there's a bit of the mansion missing on the left, and some missing light models on the right. I also just realised I accidentally moved the floor up before rendering, but it's not that noticable on this shot...
I'm not too pleased with shadow quality but I think I know why that happened. Original size 1280x960, cropped a bit, rendertime far too high as I pushed the settings too high, but I didn't notice as I left it for the day when I went to London :)
(http://www.alderley-edge.com/ed/nibarial2.jpg)
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You wouldn't happen to have a Cosmo Canyon, would you? XD :D
Oh, and another optimization:
I forgot what it's called (and I hate myself for it), but what about that technique that draws only visible surfaces? This image has the whole thing done, while in a game you could use that. That should cut the polys down nicely.
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You wouldn't happen to have a Cosmo Canyon, would you? XD :D
All in good time :D
Oh, and another optimization:
I forgot what it's called (and I hate myself for it), but what about that technique that draws only visible surfaces? This image has the whole thing done, while in a game you could use that. That should cut the polys down nicely.
Try reading some of the discussion above - I think that's what you're talking about. :)
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I LOVE your lighting setup. It looks like you are using radiosity.
The floor being raised is noticable, but not that noticeable. Only when you know what to look for, does it stand out. The door handle on the Inn, for instance, gives an indication on how high the floor is. Another indication is the fences at the entrance.
I repeat my request for a copy of your models. I could do some texture work for you... (I also want to use it for my webcomic, found here (http://www.sephiroth3d.com/comic.php)...)
Again... Great work!
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Synergy Blades: Hey, that pic is great! For me, it looks like a real photo of a plastic model ... that means that your work is very realistic!
- Alhexx
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I LOVE your lighting setup. It looks like you are using radiosity.
It uses global illumination (which incorporates radiosity). Without it it becomes very dark, but obviously using it light bounces in the scene and illuminates the village nicely. I've used three light bounces; I'm using a light blue skylight (which I'll be changing to make slightly greyer, it's a bit too blue at the moment) and one area light which is a light yellow-orange colour. I thought perhaps the whole thing was just a little bit too bright; I might turn down both lights. It looks okay in the arial shot but at the entrance, using the reference pics, it does look just a little bit too bright.
The floor being raised is noticable, but not that noticeable. Only when you know what to look for, does it stand out. The door handle on the Inn, for instance, gives an indication on how high the floor is. Another indication is the fences at the entrance.
I'm rendering out the entrance shot, with some depth-of-field. It should be ready by the time I get back from the party I'm about to go to (I'm halfway out the door as I write this :lol: ) I know already I've moved it too far down as the fence @ the entrance now hovers off the ground -_- but it's halfway through and it's taken it's time already so I won't cancel it.
I repeat my request for a copy of your models. I could do some texture work for you... (I also want to use it for my webcomic, found here (http://www.sephiroth3d.com/comic.php)...)
I've read your comic in the past, tis great stuff. When the final version of Nibelheim I'll send you the models/scene (but only for your use. ;))
Hey, that pic is great! For me, it looks like a real photo of a plastic model ... that means that your work is very realistic!
Thanks :) It becomes hard to get rid of the 'model' look - I know exactly what you mean and others have said the same. This entrance shot that's halfway through rendering is looking a little like that too but I think it's more noticable on arial shots. I think with the mountains in place to give it perspective, and decent shading/texturing, the model look should be gone and it should look more realistic.
Will post the new image later. :)
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Oh, and another optimization:
I forgot what it's called (and I hate myself for it), but what about that technique that draws only visible surfaces? This image has the whole thing done, while in a game you could use that. That should cut the polys down nicely.
IIRC, there's a similar feature in 3Dfx drivers called "Hidden Surface Removal", or HSR.
Would that be the name you're looking for?
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i have to say WOW to those pics again!
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You could be thinking of backface-culling ... that's one dirt-cheap and simple way to work out which polygons to draw. Only works on certain types of mesh, though.
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Synergy Blades: I've been to a company dealing with 3D graphics and such; I know it is very hard to build 3D model buildings. Like Skillster said, I also have to say WOW ... :D Really awesome job man!
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Thanks :) Here's the DOF test from last night. A little too much blurring I think, but that's easily solvable for next time.
I figured out what was wrong with the floor; as you can see below, I must have rotated it cuz the fence is off the floor on the right (floor too low) but the barrel and fence on the left is too low (floor too high). Again, easily corrected. :)
(http://www.alderley-edge.com/ed/nibentdof-test.jpg)
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The 3Dfx driver thing I never knew about...
I think it's the culling, but I keep confusing all the names @_x;;
I think it was come kind of occlusion?
...and, wow. That's all I can say is, wow :D
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The 3Dfx driver thing I never knew about...
Oh, yeah. As the 3Dfx driver community found out, 3Dfx built in a whole buncha features in the drivers, most of these hidden features that didn't appear in the last official 3Dfx driver set were still there, except they were in regestry key form, which meant you had to use Regedit to set the option manually.
Also, there are a few driver sets that are being made from the ground up, but only the one that I've mentioned before (the 3DHQ driver set), is supposed to have DX8.1 compatibility, or so say the people writing the thing; but since some sets are coded from scratch, some options that weren't originally there may or may not have been added as well, and of course are most likely in the form of a CPU hack.
As for HSR, its functionality on a Voodoo3 is somewhat experimental at the moment (V5 users have had better luck with it), but the concept behind the feature is the same, to remove surfaces that are hidden and are therefore not needed to be drawn, theoretically increasing FPS.
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Very impressive pics.
Maybe it snowed and iced over, which is why everything is white and the ground is too high :P
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Looks great.
I think that hidden surface removal could be a thing like portaling, which means that if you are in one room, you cant see something that is in other room which is completly behind the corner. It is good idea, but little harder to code.
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No, portal space is a rendering technique rather than an optimisation. In other words, the engine (and 'level', i.e. 3d area/mesh) in question both have to have been written/designed in a portal-based fashion to take advantage of portal optimisations; you can't just add it to any old 3d engine. Plus, it's a strictly 'interior' technique only, inside buildings where you have defined 'rooms' and limited ways (only a few doors) to go from one to another.
The graphics cards nowadays /do/ have something like HSR ... IIRC, ATi's version is 'HyperZ', but I've no idea how it actually works ;)
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I'd just like out that all these speed optimizations won't help SB decrease his render-time. His rendering isn't card-related... It's almost, if not all software based.
Personally, I'd love to port his mesh to Lightwave, and see the difference between the two render-times. (Lightwave renders much differently than Max.)
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Synergy Blades: I ... simply ... sim ... don't know ... what ... to say !
WOW ! That's the only word that can express my impression !! I smell a fine renderer career in the remake for you ...
- Alhexx