Qhimm.com Forums
Miscellaneous Forums => Scripting and Reverse Engineering => Topic started by: Giffen1 on 2003-01-08 07:47:23
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Hi i'm new here.
Just like to thank all u decoders/programmers in advance for all the great work u've been doing to make FF7 pc as customizable as possible. :)
Ok with that outta the way i'd just like to ask if only Cloud has a high poly battle model (more akin to the FMV Cloud models)
(http://www.boomspeed.com/xdud/cloud.jpg)
if the others FF main characters have them too where can i find them? And if the others don't hav high poly models , why? And why only Cloud?
another question...why does Barret and Vincent have multiple battle models where as the others don't.
See i don't hav the PC game version of FF7 so i can't check the other LGP folders and stuff...I only hav FF7 main character battle models which Ahlexx was kind enough to send to me (THANKS again!!) all those months back...(only got back to being interested in FF7 again...that's me short attention span)
anyway those renders above were made in 3dsmax which is obviously below par due to the buggy texturing.. :)
(i've just started using 3dsmax so i'm not that knowledgeable about the program)
a question for Mirex : first off, THANK YOU!! Biturn's a really helpful app. I hope u continue to develop for the other file formats like 3ds, ms3d, obj. so that they can export textures and bones and whatnot.
I've seen ur renders/pictures of the FF7 characters like safer sephiroth and Cloud's friend? Do they export that way in Lightwave or do u use some tool to smooth out the textures?
I don't hav lightwave so i use file format converters....unfortunately my converter doesn't have support for lwo 6.5+ so when i convert the battle models in biturn i use lwo and when i generate them in the file converter the textures appear blockyhence above image...is there anyway around this besides retexturing them on my own by making new maps?
thanks for any help u guys could give me.
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Ok with that outta the way i'd just like to ask if only Cloud has a high poly battle model
If you mean 'high poly model' then all main game characters do, they are used in battles. If you mean 'really high poly model', then its only Cloud and Seph, which are used in the final fight scene (IMHO).
if the others FF main characters have them too where can i find them?
You can find them in the battle.lgp. If you want to know how, check out my new document, how to rip gamedata (http://mirex.mypage.sk/FILES/gamedata.txt), its also on my page.
See i don't hav the PC game version of FF7 so i can't check the other LGP folders and stuff...
Uhh i cant help you then, i work only with pc version, i even never seen psx version.
I hope u continue to develop for the other file formats like 3ds, ms3d, obj. so that they can export textures and bones and whatnot.
I will, but it takes lots of time to make it work and also i have to get programs for testing. Now i wanted to include Softimage .XSI fromat. So far only LWO6.5 format is quite well done.
I've seen ur renders/pictures of the FF7 characters like safer sephiroth and Cloud's friend? Do they export that way in Lightwave or do u use some tool to smooth out the textures?
Yes they do export that way. Textures are used only for eyes and mouth and such.
Problem lies in that the only format i know that supports vertex colours is LWO6.5. No other. So i would like to export it fine but formats dont allow it. Without vertex colours all models look like the one at the right on your picture.
Note :) : polygon colour = each facet of model has its own colour (looks blocky); vertex colour = each corner of each facet has its own colour (looks smooth)
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sephiroth...u mean the bare chested version where he goes off to fight cloud?
hmmm well that doesn't bode well for me.....so ur saying that the only file format that supports vertex colours is lwo 6.5....
i think 3dsmax supports vertex colours as well...
either that or uvw mapping...and the sad thing is the uvw map coordinates doesn't export with the mesh...so i'll haveta uvw map the whole thing again...
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It's not that bad. I put the high-res cloud model into truespace and had to completely resize everything, color everything, and trust me..it wasn't an easy task. After a few days work, I managed to get the model looking decent. However, I couldn't get the eyes and other textures onto the model because truespace's texture feature sucks swollen balls.
So, it looks like I'm forced into using lightwave if I want the model's colors to look okay. Damn, I really hate using lightwave's interface, and all that I can't do in Truespace is the eyes. Decisions, decisions...
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bones or not i only need the actual textures (skinning is one thing but uvwmapping each individual part of all 10 FF characters is unfathomable) to look right
....let's say i get Lightwave :erm: and let's say Lightwave supports 3ds or at least wavefront .obj exporting...when i export it will i get the vertex colours to look right (smooth) when i import it into MAX or will i get smoother textures or the same edgy look..coz if that's the case then acquiring a Lightwave app for a simple conversion would b fruitless :(
guess i could settle for the jaggy look. I hope Mirex, Ahlexx can think of a way around this vertex colouring thingie without the use of Lightwave :)
in time maybe?
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Well.. I suppose if I could have the oportunity to build a POV ray plugin one could do the following.
1: UV mapping (handled by POV with an image map)
2: Smooth triangles (handled by POV mesh with triangle points and vertex normals)
3: color gradients (more complex but a doable thing requires individual triangle objects with there own pigment that's a gradient from each vertex).
Although POV isn't the best format, you can add some texture affects to each mesh of the FF chracter. For example Clouds pants you can had a thread bump map too and make it look like denim or plaid.. in texture same color.
Smooth triangles are the biggest thing, they create a shade gadient between each vertex. You can then use Moray to manipulate your object files and export them to whatever rendering engine you want.
I suppose another posibility is if they give vertex normals one can do polygon multiplication as well. You can estimate the curvature of the mesh using the surface normals and then create new polygons in the group meshs. IE make your own high polycount objects from the low polycount objects using extrapolation and interpolation. Won't look as good as the original but you might get something passable.
Cyb
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i think 3dsmax supports vertex colours as well...
maybe, but max fileformat is not described, and hacking it would take some time. Try if it really supports vertex colours.
skinning is one thing but uvwmapping each individual part of all 10 FF characters is unfathomable
i found one nice prog for texturing. you can draw/spray directly onto the model (btw i had same idea some time ago, grrr they took my idea). Its called Deep Paint 3D, its from RightHemisphere, and you can dl it at http://www.righthemisphere.com/products/dp3d/downloads/dp3d20.exe
Griffen1: what formats can you load int your 3dsmax ?
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mirex, 3dsmax can open .3ds files and import .obj... i think both formats supports vertex colors and you can find a lot of docs about these 2 formats.
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I've thought to write a "Texture-Generator" for the Ultima. It should read out the vertice colors and generate a bitmap from it ... however, I don't realy have an idea how to do this ;)
- Alhexx
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actually 3dsmax can import a lot of file formats
basically what i do is convert the battle model file to lwo (not lwo 6.+) in biturn (i turn on the load poly material in options FF7...which is actually the one that makes th texture jaggy coz the model is actually smooth underneath...otherwise if i don't turn on the load poly material it shows up without texture at all) In Lightwave even if u don't turn poly materials on the textures show up. Anyway i convert lwo to :
obj (Wavefront Object) - this is the one i use to import
mtl (Wavefront Material) - which directly loads this (jaggy textures)
here are the other file formats
md2 (Quake 2)
md3 (Quake 3)
3ds (3d studio mesh)
prj (3d studio mesh)
shp (3d studio shape)
ai (Adobe Illustrator)
dxf (AutoCad)
dwg (AutoCad)
ai (Adobe Illustrator)
ige, igs, iges (IGES)
stl (Stereolitho)
wrl, wrz (VRML)
lwo (without any texturing at all)
even lwo (though the current plugin available can't import the textures in...and it's pretty old doesn't support lwo 6.5 to 7.0)
now if u can make a lwo 6.5 plugin which imports the textures for 3dsmax that would be great lol :D
Question about Lightwave : i understand u can import the bones in there too....can u manipulate them in any way? so's the pose can be changed...
oh and the bones show up in LW Modeller but not in Lighwave so u can't manipulate the bones why is that?
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and 3dsmax has a similar tool to Deep paint 3d called Vertexpaint where u can directly spray on the model.
Ahlexx : man a texture generator would b great.
but either way i'd settle for just importing the texture. :wink:
edit : just checked the 3dsmax website at http://www.discreet.com/products/3dsmax/
added the following features for the new version that came out :
(Version 5)
-Global illumination with exposure control, photometric lights & new shaders
-Now includes reactor® – premiere dynamics software integrated with 3ds max
-Export to real-time 3D environments with Render-to-Texture, Normal Maps, and Light Maps
-Support for Vertex Color Baking of Radiosity solutions
i only hav version 4.2 (i'm pretty sure it does support vertex color) but i'm probably gonna get 5.0 anyway... :D
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mirex, 3dsmax can open .3ds files and import .obj... i think both formats supports vertex colors and you can find a lot of docs about these 2 formats.
Can you give me a link to any of the docs ? I have found only few weak ones on .3ds ...
Question about Lightwave : i understand u can import the bones in there too....can u manipulate them in any way? so's the pose can be changed...
yes, load model into Ligtwave (layout) and in the left menu choose Add/Bones/Convert skelegons into bones.
Now you can move body parts by selecting & rotating bone ! ( thanks Sephiroth 3D )
In Lightwave even if u don't turn poly materials on the textures show up
hey, its not texture, its a vertex material/color.
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.3ds
http://www.tsrevolution.com/docs/c3ds.zip
http://www.wotsit.org/download.asp?f=3ds
http://www.wotsit.org/download.asp?f=3ds_d
http://www.wotsit.org/download.asp?f=3dsinfo
.mli (materials)
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/mxr/gfx/3d/MLI.spec
.obj
http://www.wotsit.org/download.asp?f=objsrc
http://www.wotsit.org/download.asp?f=w_obj //very good
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i've read those, but still i can't find how to assign material to vertices in obj. Can you find that info for me ?
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Sorry man... sadly i don't know where to get those infos... :( the only way i know is the same you know. Hack into the file format :P
Btw, i don't think is too much work since almost all the file is decoded.
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hey thanks for all the effort...if u ask me i think the best bet would be using the wavefront obj format the neat thing about it is it exports the material seperately (doesn't include the tga files though...why is that seperated anyway?) the only limitation with biturn when converting the collected battle mesh (rtaa, saaa,,etc..) is it screws up the orientation...but it can export individual parts perfectly (srao, rtao, etc.) without the vertex material/color (which i so desperately need) :z
anyway, worse case scenario...i just reskin them...no biggie a deal...just long and tedious (agh)...my god...how long will that take me...I'm guessing Cloud has the lowest object count at 17...phew..lol
thanks for the info about the bones never would've guessed..lol..
u know wut i just hate the Lightwave 7.5 interface it's so dang hard to control....either that or i'm just adjusting...i think 3dsmax is much user friendly ...but that's me...
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glad to help.
Lightwave does not look too hard to me, its just different. I'll try to play with 3ds max and i will see what can i do.
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Giffen1: I'm the exact opposite. I hate Max. I can work with it, no problem, but everything I have to do in there, I can do 50 times faster and better in LW. But that's just me. I'm sure you can say the same thing about Lightwave.
Unforunatly, Vertex info is new, being only in 6.0+ or 6.5+, so using anything older will not work when trying to get the vertex info into Max.
LW takes some time to get used to, but once it's in your blood, it becomes a part of you.
Here's some examples of my LW work:
http://www.sara-and-david.com
Here's some FF7 examples:
http://www.sephiroth3d.com
And I also have a few images posted around the board somewhere... Mirex, you really should use those images as examples of your prog or something...
I'd probably visit here more if the forums worked in Netscape... For the record... Something added to the site is what broke it for NS uses. I just installed the same version of phpbb on my site, and it works fine!
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And I also have a few images posted around the board somewhere... Mirex, you really should use those images as examples of your prog or something...
Gimme links .. you know how boring it is to search for hours.
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Unforunatly, Vertex info is new, being only in 6.0+ or 6.5+, so using anything older will not work when trying to get the vertex info into Max.
exactly, and the only lwo 5+ importer plugin available at this time was LWOimp which couldn't even bring regular textures into Max much less vertex colors...and it's fairly new at that -_-
Mirex : maybe u could use that particular plugin as a starting point and make a better one :roll: hehe
anyway...for the moment since i don't exactly have access to the bones, ok so i do but in lightwave not in max, and since the generic battle poses when u export the models as a whole is so hard to work with...i just opted rebuilding each character from the individual parts...it's a bit tedious but fun...hehe..i'd probably animate it shortly with CS but now it's jus like Lego..hehe
(http://www.boomspeed.com/xdud/red.jpg)
just finished Red XIII ... again a less than average rendition of red XIII but it'll do i suppose ...until i can reskin it
Sepiroth3d : that dragon and a chocobo u once showed in another thread in ur wallpaper did u rebuild that from the individual parts or did u export it as is with biturn?
btw i jus saw an old thread of urs concerning the FMV hi res FF7 models...did someone actually release it on the net? man, that would hav been awesome...wish i could hav gotten it :isee: ..btw any luck finding them...?
[/b]
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Ok i messed with 3ds max, but anyhow i tried, i could not set any vertex colour/material. Is it possible ? Anyone accomplished it yet ? if so, send me a file with it please ....
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Is anyone xpecting me to post a reply here, too ? :D
- Alhexx
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Alhexx: ofcourse, if you have anything to say.
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more power to u Mirex...i'm sure u'll get Max in time...if not maybe a more advanced lwo 6.5 + importer plugin for Max?
thanks again for all the effort :)
btw where r the summon models (i.e bahamut, ifrit, leviathan, Highwind) anyway? r they also stored in battle.lgp?
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mirex: Sorry, I hadn't enough time to read this topic ... I'll try to do that and reply something useful... ;)
- Alhexx
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Mirex: Here's the only one I could find online. I'll see about making/posting more after I get tomorrow's S&D issue done.
http://www.sephiroth3d.com/stuff/battle-show-off.jpg
(http://www.sephiroth3d.com/stuff/battle-show-off.jpg)
Giffen1: That sounds about as bad as the Lightwave importer for Maya...
The Dragon was orignally my "test subject" for Conv/Biturn. The one in the wallpaper was done with one of the first versions of Biturn. The characters, however, I completely modeled myself. I did have to put it together, and position it myself, though. Bones weren't supported yet when I did it.
As for those movie models, I've always heard they exisited, but I could never find a copy of them. They seemed to dissapear completely from the internet right around the time I started looking for them. Sucks, don't it?
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summon battle models anyone? i can't seem to find them in the battle lgp folder.
and Cid's Highwind...is there a model that can b found?
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if not maybe a more advanced lwo 6.5 + importer plugin for Max?
I've been playing with Max, and one way or another i cant find any way to colour vertices. IMHO it is not possible in Max, so even plugin won't help. If you know how to make in Max a triangle with each corner of it coloured with different colour, send it to me.
So only way how make model look all right is to recolour model parts (for example whole cloud's skin to one pink instead of various shades of pink) and let Max Shading make the work. It should look good.
Im fixing that 3DS output, i will post when its done.
btw where r the summon models (i.e bahamut, ifrit, leviathan, Highwind) anyway? r they also stored in battle.lgp?
I think that summons are in magic.lgp, and highwind should be in world.lgp. But summon models cannot be viewed completed, only by parts. They have different fileformat i think. Haven't checked on it yet.
Here's the only one I could find online. I'll see about making/posting more after I get tomorrow's S&D issue done.
Thank you, i will post it in my gallery.
-- edit --
Now i see that vertex colours can be done in MAX ... so i will work on it.
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I think that summons are in magic.lgp, and highwind should be in world.lgp. But summon models cannot be viewed completed, only by parts. They have different fileformat i think. Haven't checked on it yet.
different format? does that mean i can't open them in biturn? (Hopefully support in future versions :wink: )doesn't matter if they're in parts...i'd probably end up rebuilding them either way. thanks i'll check em out :D
-- edit --
Now i see that vertex colours can be done in MAX ... so i will work on it
YAY!!
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Found another image I did. This has my fully animatable Rufus model. Body parts converted with Biturn, but I seperated it all, so it's fully and easily animatable.
(http://www.sephiroth3d.com/stuff/rufus-&-elena.jpg)
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nice.
as for me i've put my "FF7 to 3dsmax" retexturing on hold. Gotta wait for Mirex. Can't wait to see what he can come up with next. Man...I'm so excited. :D
Equally as exciting as waiting for Devil May Cry 2 to b released for PS2...Wahoo!!
a-hem (collects himself)...anyway...
Sephiroth 3d: i remember u mentioning in another thread that u could save the vertex colors into a "vertex map" in LW 6.5+
so does this mean that u've successfully managed to seperate the textures now?
If u could can u teach me how? I'm still not that "proficient" when using Lightwave -_-
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A "Vertex Map" is what Lightwave calls the collection of point color information on a model. It's not really a map. It's applied to a model, not (too much) unlike a regular map, but you can't (TIKO*) be exported as an image map.
Now that I think about it now, taking it to LW6.5/7, then creating a UV Map for the model, and "baking" the model with it's vertex colors on it would be one way to export the vertex colors as an image map. You'd just need a way to export LW's UV map info and import it into Max. (Otherwise, you'd have to manuall rebuild the UV map in Max.)
The problem is that the colors would be resolution dependant, and might loose quaility as you get closer to the model.
And Sorry, I can't teach you. I'm rather busy with school, and my webcomic. (I'm swamped with homework, and it's only the first week!!)
That reminds me... I need to work on my FF7 theater webcomic sometime soon...
(*That I Know Of)
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A "Vertex Map" is what Lightwave calls the collection of point color information on a model. It's not really a map. It's applied to a model, not (too much) unlike a regular map, but you can't (TIKO*) be exported as an image map.
Now that I think about it now, taking it to LW6.5/7, then creating a UV Map for the model, and "baking" the model with it's vertex colors on it would be one way to export the vertex colors as an image map. You'd just need a way to export LW's UV map info and import it into Max. (Otherwise, you'd have to manuall rebuild the UV map in Max.)
The problem is that the colors would be resolution dependant, and might loose quaility as you get closer to the model.
And Sorry, I can't teach you. I'm rather busy with school, and my webcomic. (I'm swamped with homework, and it's only the first week!!)
some other time then....i'll check in on wut u said...hopefully i'll manage to at least try to get some of it on my own
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Since all of you seem to have the battle models and I don't, I'd like to get you guys interested in a trade...
I got a perfect Highwind, Ifrit, Squall and Midgar... 3Ds files. Anybody interested? PLEASE get me those battle models!!!
And since I'm lazy with reading back, please mail me about it ;-)
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Oh my god...
Once again: This topic was dead for almost and we don't like to see such topic resurrected.
Secondly: We're a commmunity, not a boutique. Trades won't lead to anything.
As for your lazyness:
*Alhexx sits down and begins to read his auto-biography*
When I first came to this board, I came here to get those battle models, too. However, there weren't any useful tools available, so I had to start writing my own ripper (now better known as Ultima).
So:
You will still have less work with browsing through the tech forum and reading those posts than I, writing my own tools.
Here are some words that might help you:
ultima, milkshape, battle database, lgptools
- Alhexx
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i'm new to lightwave although i can use max pretty well, but for the battle models i am using lightwave for now, i have got the bones by choosing convert skelatogon to bones, rotating works pretty well, but when i try to say make the legs move using the bones, the leg just comes off, how do i get the bones to stick together?
thx, any help or tips would be appreciated. :o
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well just found a way to convert the .lwo models created by biturn to 3ds max while maintaining the colours
its done using deep exploration.
u simply convert the lwo to vrml 2.0 and then import into 3ds max and you will have the full model with the proper vertex colours.
now i just have the problem of getting the proper bones in 3ds max its not as easy as lightwave where u just choose convert skelegon to bones.
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Would you be so kind as to send them to me please?
My email account wont go above a meg per email so thats out of the question. Maybe you could meet me on aim or icq?
I dont have litewave (anymore) but i didnt really know how to use it either but. If you add bones in litewave, wont they be in the max or 3ds files after they are converted?
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well just found a way to convert the .lwo models created by biturn to 3ds max while maintaining the colours
its done using deep exploration.
u simply convert the lwo to vrml 2.0 and then import into 3ds max and you will have the full model with the proper vertex colours.
now i just have the problem of getting the proper bones in 3ds max its not as easy as lightwave where u just choose convert skelegon to bones.
i'd like to offer advice bein one o the first who attempted this lwo>max conversion...import it by parts and rig it yourself...that way you can have an easier time than say manipulating the bones in lwo to give you a free pose so that you can bone it anew in max....coz vrml 2.0 doesn't do bones...even if it does..max won't recognise it :/
i was planning to improve upon the models in terms of making them high poly but unfortunately i hav somehow lost interest in FF7...for the time being....until "Advent Childern" comes out anyway
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Can someone give me a link to Lightwave? I used to have it, but the system had a memory wipe, and I lost it. :(
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Can someone give me a link to Lightwave? I used to have it, but the system had a memory wipe, and I lost it. :(
Considering that's a $1500 piece of software, I don't think it would be quite legal to "give you a link." That's not an approriate thing to ask for here, if you are going to do that, do it privately.
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i've managed to transfer most of a cloud model to 3ds max 5.1 but they eyes and mouth are still missing, i'm not quite sure how to add those, but appart from that the model is fully rigged, and walks, if someone familiar with 3ds max can help fix the eyes i would appreciate it,
u can get the model from
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/solat/cloud.max
thx
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I'll have a look... but you could reduce your avatar size/dimensions whilst you're waiting. :wink:
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Well I gave it a try, but it tells me it's missing the biped.dlc even though I do have that file as part of Character Studio and it's loaded correctly (viewed through Plugin Manager). If I try to open the file anyway, it pauses for about a minute then tells me there's an error and that it is closing. :o
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hmm, not sure what it could be but i use 3ds max 5.1 with character studio 4.0, maybe u have a different version?
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--off-topic--
Cool Newbie, you might not have noticed but your avatar's disappeared. Adjusting it, are you?
--edit--
Ok, so that's a stupid question. I use 3ds max 5.4 Character Studio 4.2 and it works OK with me.
-edit no.2-
Great, it's not working Ok anymore. In your error report, Synergy Blades, does it say:
Lightwave v.5.4 has experienced an error and must close. We are sorry for the inconvenience. If you have just installed it, we reccomend reinstalling Lightwave.
It then restarts, followed by calling me a blue screen with a lot of information.
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I'm not on the right computer at the moment but I'm using MAX5.1 (5.4? Didn't even know it existed) and the Character Studio update that came with the .1 update.
I don't use Lightwave and even if I did it's a MAX scene, not a lightwave one. The error report is a standard MAX one, i.e an error occured and this application will now close, do you want to save a copy of this scene, etc. I did try to save a copy as it suggested but it doesn't work.