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Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ged on 2004-08-14 07:57:47
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This might be a quite disturbing topic for some of you but I think talking about it won't hurt much. While playing for the n-th time a friend of mine told me to go to Nibelheim and visit the basement. After the long cutscene we sat down and had a long talk - she had a lot to say, and what she said made a lot of sense. Thus we talked and came up with several conclusions...
First of all, Cloud and Zack. Not many take notice of them, as Zack seems to influence only the basic storyline.. Well not exactly. Cloud and Zack are quite bound with each other in a strong yet intimate relationship. Take notice - Mideel Cloud's Mako poisoning is not his first case. After the Nibelheim reactor scene when Cloud throws off Sephiroth, Shin-ra decides to mask everything up - Nibelheim lives again, and both Cloud and Zack are taken into experiment. Zack being exposed to Mako, and being an ex-SOLDIER withstands it, and becomes quite powerful.. Cloud however reacts with Jenova Cell's, and togheter with Mako poisoning and what happened at Nibelheim, he is completely devastated both physically and mentally. The only one that took care of him was Zack. He led him by hand, helped him in every way possible, even decided to take care of him afterwards. Mind you - Cloud's childhood was not one of acceptance. Zack was generally the first one that treated him like an equal and took notice of him. Maybe not the first one that took notice of him. Here is where Sephiroth comes in. Cloud came to Midgar with hopes of a better future, of somehow being noticed. But he failed the SOLDIER test, he became a plain Shin-ra soldier. There he was most probably treated like at home - nobody cared for him much. The second reason why he came to Midgar was because of Sephiroth. He was his hero, the illusionary dream he wanted to reach. And Sephiroth did notice him - maybe because he thought that Cloud might become somebody one day, or maybe he was just toying with him. Nevertheless, Cloud was at Sephiroth's every command. Cloud was so deep in love with Sephiroth, that whatever he would tell Cloud, Cloud would do it. The domination was obvious - adding a sexual side of this relationship even more. He opened up to him. And that is the reason why Sephiroth can easily control Cloud afterwards - it's not only the matter of Jenova cells. Cloud then is betrayed - Sephiroth succumbs to his madness, and thus leaves Cloud with no home, no family, no one. He destroyed almost everything that Cloud had -- and then Cloud lost the only thing that was left as a meaning for him - Sephiroth. After the "death" of Sephiroth for Cloud, he is left wounded in the Mako Reactor. Here we come back to the beginning, where Zack takes care of him.
How does it affect later?
Take note - at the beginning of the flashbacks we don't really know who is talking with Sephiroth at Nibelheim. It's most probably Zack -- it's a dialogue of people who have known each other quite throughouly. Cloud's feeling for Zack were very strong - after losing everything, including Sephiroth, he was left alone, and Zack gave him everything and even more. But not for long - Zack's death came soon, on the very eyes of Cloud. The shock was so strong, that Cloud couldn't accept it. And he didn't. He pushed it away from his memory, forgot about it all, lost the most important part of himself. Here is the moment where all the memories, all his life became blended. Both Zack and Cloud became one. This is why Cloud's Second Mako poisoning is so hard - it just sprang all those memories back. He knew, he felt that it was not him that deserved to live, it was Zack. Living a life of two people, Cloud needed to accept the fact of death of the one that cared for him most and that was the thing that would seperate him to the living Cloud and dead Zack. All along the storyline Sephiroth watches Cloud. After the fall in the Church, the roof and flower bed weren't enough to secure such a fall. Jenova cells, now controlled by Sephiroth, known for the power of regeneration in SOLDIER affected Cloud. By Jenova cells, Sephiroth could continue controlling Cloud - knowing him throughouly it was quite an easy task. He keeps luring him in, confusing even more, making him a more useful puppet, a puppet lost in himself and his own fear.
And what helped him out? His friends. Aerith, who showed that you can feel even after being killed by all your hopes - she led him to understanding that. Tifa, who supported him all along the way, and as an anchor to the past, she played the most important role. She also kept the truth from him, and thus unknowingly she confused him even more. Lifestream was the last chance for Cloud to come back and to understand what has happened. But, Cloud does not stay. He leaves them, he needs to know, and understand. He still hasn't healed.. (quotations are from a Japenese AC trailer) "I don't think I can save anyone. My family, my friends, no one". Standing by Zack's grave (the dead flowers and Zack's sword - a grave he only knew about, took care of it, and made it with his bare hands) he says - "I will live till the moment you did. This is what I have decided". Those who didn't notice what happened between Cloud and Zack won't understand how much it means. And it's quite crucial - it's the reason for which Cloud left..
I guess that's all so far.. If you have anything to discuss, please feel free.. Spare any useless comments.. This topic is serious enough. And please forgive any typing mistakes..
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Just a couple minor things, but just my own thoughts....
Zack and Cloud's relationship strestches back further than just that last visit to Nibelheim. Remember on the trip there, Zack made the effort to include Cloud, talking to him when he had the motion sickness, as well as Cloud's mention that his memory's had been created by the war stories that Zack had told him during their time together.
The fusion of Cloud's memory's with Zack's was not a choice of Cloud's, nor was it even something he was aware of. He looked up to Zack so much, Zack was second only to Sepheroth you might say. And even up through the Nibelheim incident and on to when he has the Mako poisoning and is taken to Midgar, Zack was always more considerate of Cloud than he thought he deserved, remember he considered himself a failure for not making Soldier, and wouldnt even face the people in his home town.
(Except for his mother, as I believe the memories of her were true, since he was from Nibelheim and Zack was not. Also remember the Inn was one bed short, which could mean perhaps that Cloud slept at home that night, and Zack's memories of Nibelheim did not entierly overtake Cloud's.)
Now remember, Jenova cells didnt alter Clouds memory because they wanted to, it was done as a defense mechanism in the need of a memory. Just as the Mako poisoning at Mideel snapped Cloud back to reality, the Mako at Nibelheim was what scambled his brain to begin with. The Jenova cells made up for what the Mako poinsing did to Cloud's mind.
When Jenova cells had to reconstruct Cloud's memories, it did so using the glorious memories of Zack as opposed to the shameful ones of Cloud, to remember as his time in Soldier to tell Tifa, because Clouds memories were ones he felt ashamed of. But this was not a move on Cloud's part, he believed fully that what Jenova presented was his true memory.
Also, what Zack and Cloud were subject to in Nibelheim was far more than just infusing them with Jenova cells and Mako like was done to Soldier. What they underwent was a far more advanced form, attempting to use Jenova cells to fashion them into clones of Sephiroth. The reason Cloud was so devastated by the procedure was that he was the weaker of the two. Zack had been infused with Jenova cells when he joined Soldier, and so, after Sephiroth slashed him in the reactor, he was not killed, and the Jenova cells went to work reconstructing his body and mind. Cloud had never before then been subjected to 'Jenova Cells and Mako Soup' infusions, thus his body and mind were damaged more severly prior to the experiment. The result, Cloud was not able to withstand the stress of the experiment, which broke his mind down even further, and was unable to do anything of his own volition until they reached Midgar and Zack was already dead.
In which case, the quotes youve given there could come across as him showing his guilt after knowing that Zack died while he lived that day outside Midgar, and he was able to do nothing to save his only friend.
If thats been at all enlightening or useful to anyone, I dont know. If Ive rambled on too much, I apologize to anyone who's time I've wasted.
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But as I recall, Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor, right? And Sephiroth ends up at the northern crater being *flushed* by the lifestream. Then the reunion starts as anticipated by Hojo, who created the Sephiroth clones. Sephiroth tries to confuse Cloud by saying he was 'constructed' by Hojo and is a failed experiment. And asks Tifa if he should show them her "real" thoughts. (question: She isn't injected with Jenova Cells, so he doesn't have control over her. How the hell would he reveal her thoughts?) Which she obviously doesn't want to share. Cloud believes Sephiroth and decides to give the black materia to Sephiroth when they encounter him in the whirlwind maze (crater).
Earlier when the party is in Gongaga and they speak to Zack's parents, Tifa acts like she knew him too. (since she was the guide to the reactor at Nibelheim) So, if 2 members knew Zack, they obviously knew he had the buster sword and Cloud didn't. Wouldn't it appear strange that they don't recognize the sword and link it to Zack?
Well, I guess I gotta take a refresh course FF7 :) Cuz when typing this I suddenly remembered stuff. ( I finished the game about 5 years ago... and my memory isn't that good)
N.
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But as I recall, Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor, right?
Yes, at the end of the Nibelheim scene. I mentioned it above - afterwards they are found wounded in the reactor and Shin-ra covers up the whole scene.
(question: She isn't injected with Jenova Cells, so he doesn't have control over her. How the hell would he reveal her thoughts?) Which she obviously doesn't want to share.
This is an example of Sephiroth's manipulation. We know that, Sephiroth knew that, but Tifa didn't. And from her behaviour it was obvious she knew something and didn't want to share.
Cloud believes Sephiroth and decides to give the black materia to Sephiroth when they encounter him in the whirlwind maze (crater).
Yes.. Sephiroth controlling Cloud as a puppet - knowing him, and having the possibility of control via Jenova Cells he manages both to give him the Black Materia and try to kill Aerith in the Temple of Ancients, and then again giving him the Black Materia at the Northern Crater. I guess Cloud's succumbing under Sephiroth is just repeating a kind of pose from when he was looking up to him as his ideal.
So, if 2 members knew Zack, they obviously knew he had the buster sword and Cloud didn't. Wouldn't it appear strange that they don't recognize the sword and link it to Zack?
Cloud couldn't remember. The memory of Zack was locked deep within him. Aerith on the second had no idea if Zack ever met Cloud. He told her that he was in SOLDIER - I guess that the Buster Sword wasn't such a rarity there - so Aerith had no point in sharing her private memories. Tifa knew, but she hid it..
I'm quite interested what they are going to do with the Zack and Cloud part in FF7:AC. As he is visiting the grave I guess Square is still putting stress on the importance of Zack's character influence on Cloud.
I guess now that I and my friend came up with such a conclusion it would be good to play FF7 again looking at it from that side and trying to find even more.
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Well, i'm (trying to, see my posts regarding crashes) play it again. I just had another crash with the movie revealing the weapons, so i'm not that far yet. What was said earlier about the inn in Nibelheim having one bed short and Cloud sleeping at home never even cross my mind :D. I like discussing about it, because i'm still a little confused about the complete storyline. There's one thing that couldn't be right in the game. That's the ending movie. You see Red XIII with pups... I thought he supposed to be the last of his kind?
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but wasnt red xiii also an experiment in the jenova project? all the clones had numbers, and he was labeled 13. so shouldnt that influence anything sephiroth and cloud did/do also?
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nah, Hojo just numbers all his subjects. I'm sure Aeris would ahve recieved a tatoo eventually... actually, i'm not sure why she DOESN'T have one. *shrgs*
failing that, he did inject j-cells into nanaki, but they didnt take with his "whatever the fuck he is" physiology.
I'll be honest, i thought this was going to ba a "OMG Zack and cloud had gay secks wtf lol!" thread =P
But yeah, i agree witht he initial post for the most part. I'm too tired to nit-pick right now, thought =)
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failing that, he did inject j-cells into nanaki, but they didnt take with his "whatever the f*** he is" physiology.
Do you really think that he did so? He was supposed to evolve the dying species, mutating them by adding Jenova Cells would be useless. I doubt he kept injecting Jenova Cells into everything he could get a hold of. Maybe he was a mad scientist, but I guess he had brains.
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Well, i have a theory about that... if j-cells invoke mutation, perhaps he was trying to make nanaki metamorph into a more humaniod and thereor, compatable, form with which to impregnate aeris. Apparently, it didn't take.
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I doubt it. If he really planned on doing so, he would wait for the effects. I still think there was no point in planting Jenova cells into Nanaki. He might've planned on doing it afterwards, after mating Aerith and Nanaki, and looking on what would be born from that. Afterwards I guess Nanaki would be kind of useless and then experimenting on him would pose no problem.
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Nothing to do with the mutations, the mutations came from the infusion of Mako into Soldier, not the J-cells (see the Kalm flashback and the revelation of the monsters in the reactor). The J-cells, in small amounts, gave them the regenerative ability. So by injecting cells into Red XIII and Aerith, he can prolonge their lives for the sake of long-term experiments.
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Is that neccessary with Red XIII? He already was 128 years old or something... I believe that the only reason Hojo had to inject J-cells into someone was if he/she/it was a potential Sephiroth clone.
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I thought it was pretty obvious that the only reason hojo had Naniki in the labs was to give aeris a good'un.
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I thought it was pretty obvious that the only reason hojo had Naniki in the labs was to give aeris a good'un.
Why not, lets get a giant red dog to kill aeris, Sounds good to me :wink:
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Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?
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Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?
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I thought about that... then just hoped wheat I said was right :lol:
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I can twist this into something totally different.....I'm already doing it at IGN. I guess I can paste and cut some of it here.
Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory...... A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.
Ifalna: "I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the land they loved... That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."
What do you think, 'our dead mothers and brothers.' means? The only conclusion I can think of is shapeshifting..... and 'Showing us spectres of their past' tells me Jenova is able to read minds, too.
Cloud, like Sephiroth is a special case....you see, Cloud has Tifa's memories inside of him....memories of himself, as a child. None of the other clones have that...true memories mixed in with the false once. That is Cloud's struggle, He has two personalities, one controlled by Jenova, and the other is an imprint of Tifa's memories with the Promise he made to her, of protecting her. Which by coincidence is his true personality. In the end...Tifa's memories of Cloud, won out and saved Cloud. Remember the flashback were Tifa ran into Cloud....remember the Shock screens, and cloud in pain? I'll get to that later.....
Zack: "What're you gonna do when we get to Midgar?"
Cloud: "......"
Zack: "I got a place I can crash for a while. No wait, the mother lives there too ... Guess that's out..."
Cloud: "....."
Zack: "Yep...gotta change my plans! Hmm... No matter what I do, I need some money first... hey, wanna start a business? But what could we do?" Hey Cloud. Think there's anything I'd be good at?"
Zack turns and shouts at the driver.
Zack: "Hey, old guy. What do you think I'd be good at?"
Driver: "What're you yappin' about? You're still young ain't ya? Young folks should try everything! You gotta pay your debts while you're still young. Go out and look for what you really want."
Zack: "Try everything...That's easy for him to say... (does some squat thrusts for a bit then has an idea) HEY! Of course! I got a lotta brains a skill that other guys don't. That settles it! I'm gonna become a mercenary!"
Zack: "Yeah! Thanks pops!"
Driver: "Hey.. didn't you even hear a word I said?"
Zack: "Listen, I'm gonna become a mercenary and that's that. Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money. I'm gonna be rich! So Cloud. What are you gonna do?"
Driver: (shaking head) " No, wait...you got it all wrong."
Cloud: "u..uhhh......"
Zack: "Just kidding... I won't leave you hanging like that.
Zack sits next to Cloud and rests his head on him, Cloud stops shaking for the moment
Zack: "We're friends right? Mercenaries Cloud, that's what you an' me are gonna be." "(He stands up) Understand Cloud?"
The scene fades to Zack and Cloud struggling through the mountains near Midgar. They get to a cliff. Cloud is still clearly sick and being dragged by Zack. Zack hears gunshots, he drops Cloud who slumps face down to the ground. Zack unsheathes the Buster Sword and goes off screen to check out what the noise was. He runs back and kneels by Cloud to check he is OK, then a bullet hits Zack in the chest. He is knocked backwards and lands at the edge of the cliff. Two Shinra soldiers and a captain come on screen and run past Cloud to Zack. They surround Zack and shoot him several times at point blank range. One goes over and aims at Cloud.
Soldier: "What should we do with this?"
Cloud: " ...Ah... ughhhhh......"
Captain: "...Forget it. Just leave him."
They all leave. It begins to rain. Cloud drags his himself over by his hands to Zacks dead body. He sits by Zack and picks up the Buster sword still lying across Zacks body. He looks at it blankly then still weak and trembling he lifts the sword to the sky. The scene pulls back to show the Midgar in the distance, then fades away to black.
I think Cloud is totally brain dead by this point of the game....or pre-game I should say. Everything that Zack is saying was being absorbed by the Jenova cells in him.....and everything that Zack experenced in the past, has also been absorbed. When Cloud picks up the sword....that is the keypoint of Cloud taking Zack's identity. All of Zack's personality, idea's and motivation now belong to Cloud. I don't believe Cloud feels any sorrow or loss over Zack. Cloud is just a puppet of Jenova. And Jenova only cares about one person....herself or.....maybe Sephiroth? (that's a whole other discussion.)
Tifa: We finally made it. We sure took the long way through.
Cloud: Tifa, you wait here.
Tifa: I'm going inside too! I wanna see!
Sephiroth: Only authorized people are allowed in. This place is full of Shinra's industrial secrets.
Tifa: But!
Sephiroth: (to the Shinra soldier) Take care of the lady.
Tifa: Mm, man! Better take real good care of me then!
I know, mind reading is a far fetched idea (as well as shapeshifting). But, how else can Cloud know about the confrontation with Sephiroth. There is no other way to explain the first flashback that Cloud describes. Jenova has to have the ability to look into other people's thoughts. And make them her own. The real Cloud was outside with Tifa not inside with Sephiroth, during that first flashback, explained by Cloud. Only a single guard, Zack, Tifa and Sephiroth made it to the reactor. The only person that the "real" Cloud can be is the Guard.....and he was outside with Tifa. Zack is the one that saw Sephiroth lose it. I could post up the whole script of that scene.....but it would be very long. I think everyone remember Sephiroth going crazy, anyway.
Tifa: Cloud... Cloud... ......I didn't know what to do. I was always like that...
Tifa sees Cloud at the Train Station.
Guard: What's the matter?
Cloud: Ohhh...
Guard: ......poor kid.
Cloud: Ooouugh......
Tifa: Are you all right?
Cloud: Oo... uh... agh Uh... uh... Tifa...?
Tifa: ...? Tifa! ...............? Oh, Cloud!
Cloud: That's right. I'm Cloud.
Tifa: Is it really you, Cloud? I never thought I'd find you here!
Cloud: Yeah, it's been a while.
Tifa: What happened to you? You don't look well.
Cloud: ......Yeah? It's nothing. I'm okay.
Tifa: How long has it been?
Cloud: (after some shocks) Five years.
Tifa: ............
Cloud: What is it?
It was 7 years, not 5....that's why Tifa was silent.
I think that's when Jenova is reading Tifa's mind and forcing the info into Cloud's empty head and then combining the truth of the events that Zack experenced. That is the moment when the game start and our journey begins....that is when Cloud regains a part of himself. It is the reason why Sephiroth/Jenova can't totally control Cloud or Summons him, like the other cloans.
We the "player" are his conscience...the little boy in his head.
And then later on, the image of Cloud is reinforced by Tifa....with the promise.
Tifa: Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us.
Cloud: Sorry, Tifa...
Tifa: The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying. Someone has to do something.
Cloud: So let Barret and his buddies do something about it. It's got nothin' to do with me.
Tifa: So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?
Cloud: What......? ......Sorry.
Tifa: ......You forgot the promise, too.
Cloud: Promise?
Tifa: So you DID forget. Remember...... Cloud. It was seven years ago...
(In Cloud's memory.)
Tifa: Look at the well. Do you remember?
Cloud: Yeah... back then. I thought you would never come, and I was getting a little cold.
In Cloud's memory as Cloud and Tifa are little kids.
Tifa: Sorry I'm late. You said you wanted to talk about something?
Cloud: Come this spring... I'm leaving this town for Midgar.
Tifa: ...All boys are leaving our town.
Cloud: But I'm different from all of them. I'm not just going to find a job. I want to join SOLDIER. I'm going to be the best there is, just like Sephiroth!
Tifa: Sephiroth... The Great Sephiroth. Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?
Cloud: ...I probably won't be able to come back to this town for a
while. (wondering where Tifa was as they sit in a well) ...huh?
Tifa: Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?
Cloud: I'll try.
Tifa: Hey, why don't we make a promise? Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind...... You came save me, all right?
Cloud: What?
Tifa: Whenever I'm in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to at least experience that once.
Cloud: What?
Tifa: Come on--! Promise me----!
Cloud: All right...... I promise.
Back to present.
Tifa: You remember now, don't you... our promise?
Cloud: I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep...... the promise.
Tifa: But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER.
So come on! You've got to keep your promise.....
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Thanks for clearing up on Jenova..
I checked out the boards out of interest, and although I always joined The Kaballah with Sephiroth, I never thought of YHWH as Jehovah->Jenova.
And I agree - Tifa plays a major role in the recovery of Cloud's true self, without another person who knew the facts from the outside, it would not be possible. Just a thought - if Tifa got killed instead of Aerith (one of those wonderful rumors) I wonder what would happen.
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It would depend...on when.
Anytime, before Tifa and Cloud fall into the Lifesteam...all would be lost. But it would also depend on a what if.....
What if Tifa was the Trigger for Cloud losing hope in himself. The part when Sephiroth dug out Tifa's memories of that picture....the picture of Zack, Tifa, and Sephiroth....no Cloud in the picture. If that was the final straw...then it's anyone's guess.
As for the first part of your post....you lost me at YHWH.
If it means that Jenova is a seperate being.....I don't really think that is the case...I think Jenova is more of a virus.... but as a being she is probably dead. I'm still pondering this one. But I think Sephiroth is the one in control of the clones...but Jenova is the parent of the clones....and parent of Sephiroth, as well. If I'm to follow the script word per word...the dialog in the cargo ship messes up any Jenova in control theories..... I hate this. I like the idea of Jenova being in control...but the script totally destroys it.
Cloud saw lots of sailors and employees dead, as Cloud head into the cargo hold.
Cloud: Is it...... Sephiroth?
The soldier drops dead.
Cloud: No... not Sephiroth!
???: ......After a long sleep... ...the time...... ...time has......come...
Barret: Look, Cloud!
Cloud: Sephiroth! You're alive!
Sephiroth: ......Who are you?
Cloud: You don't remember me!? I'm Cloud!
Sephiroth: Cloud...
Cloud: Sephiroth! What are you thinking!? What are you doing!?
Sephiroth: ...the time...... is now...
(Sephiroth left them with a nasty surprise. Cloud's group fights Jenova-
BIRTH. After defeating it...)
Tifa: I've seen this somewhere... before.
Cloud: ...Jenova. You mean he's been walkin' around with that thing?
The body part from Jenova-BIRTH disappeared and turned into the
Materia. Cloud picked it up.
Cloud: So it WAS Sephiroth.
Tifa: He said something about it being time for something.
Cloud: ......Time ...is now?
Barret: I don't know WHAT the hell's goin' on! Cloud, why don't you
explain to me what's happened so far?
Cloud: ...I'll try, but don't interrupt me while I'm explaining.
Sephiroth went off searching for the Promised Land, so he could become
the ruler of the planet... That was 5 years ago. Then Sephiroth came
back and killed President Shinra. And then just now all of us saw
Sephiroth. He was carrying Jenova with him. ...This much I do know. He
told me he wants to go to the Promised Land with his mother, Jenova.
...I guess that's about it.
The killer of the Jenova in control theory is that Sephiroth is carrying Jenova, even though graphicly in the game....it's not so. If Jenova is in control, why is Sephiroth carrying it? What I think is really happening is that the Sephroth that we are seeing is not the real Sephiroth, but a clone of Sephiroth. I think everytime the Sephiroth in the North Crater takes control of a clone, it takes his form. This would partially explain all the tattooed cloaked guys that are left in Sephiroth's wake, and why they are making their way to the North Crater.
But then what if it's a Translation error....maybe Sephiroth isn't carrying Jenova...but just left a part of himself behind? It's very hard to decipher FF7 with, "your bases belonging to us",....possible errors.
On a side note...it's very possible that both Zack and Cloud were both killed, and that Hojo made the true definition of Clones out of them.....it "does" fit. I mean...they were imprisoned for 5 years...that is a very long time to be locked into a test-tube. After all, in every sci-fi show that's on TV... Clones are made in huge Test-tubes. It leaves Zack in the area of the unknown...but it would explain Cloud's memory loss.
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The killer of the Jenova in control theory is that Sephiroth is carrying Jenova, even though graphicly in the game....it's not so. If Jenova is in control, why is Sephiroth carrying it? What I think is really happening is that the Sephroth that we are seeing is not the real Sephiroth, but a clone of Sephiroth. I think everytime the Sephiroth in the North Crater takes control of a clone, it takes his form. This would partially explain all the tattooed cloaked guys that are left in Sephiroth's wake, and why they are making their way to the North Crater.
The "Sephiroth" you chase throughout the game is indeed NOT the real Sephiroth. It's also not just a clone, it's Jenova herself. When President Shinra was killed in the Shinra building, with the trail of blood leading up to him, that was the headless body of Jenova escaping from her cell. She took on the form of Sephiroth, because that form would be the most intimidating; especially in the case of Cloud. Sephiroth (actually, it was probably still Jenova) even says it himself: (as you pointed out earlier.)
Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
The ability to change one's looks and voice is Jenova's. Jenova was able to take on the appearance of Sephiroth throughout the game.
This still doesn't explain who was in control. You could look at it two ways: Sephiroth was just another victim through the whole the thing. His body was just a catalyst for Jenova's essence.
Or, Sephiroth actually *IS* Jenova reincarnate, and is manipulating the dead, headless body that you chase throughout the first half of the game.
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Yeah...I used to think like that, too. But, that doesn't explain why Sephiroth is carrying Jenova. As stated by Cloud on the Cargo Ship.
As I said earlier, that part of the script screws up any theories of Jenova in Control. If the headless body in Shinra can change into Sephiroth.... why would Sephiroth be carrying Jenova at any point of the game?
It would make more sense if Sephiroth ripped off his own limbs and left his own body parts behind for Cloud to fight. Especially, if Jenova's Body has changed into the image of Sephiroth.
And what of the reports of a guy with a number 1 tattoo, through out the game. Just about everywhere Cloud goes, there is talk about a guy descrbed as Sephiroth, with a number 1 tattoo getting there before him. Even when he was climbing his way up to Shinra Headquarters, there was dialog of a guy climbing up there before him. Which is also wierd being that the clones seem to be able to fly. And it then contridicts all the guys in black with different tattoo numbers. One that comes to mind is the one you meet at the Ancient Temple. Blabbing about Sephiroth was here. Does that mean it was possessed by Sephiroth and Sephiroth left it...or does it mean the black cloaked guys were following him, just like Cloud was.
And what about the statement, That Sephiroth made, just before Cloud switches sides. "This is the end of this body's usefulness". Since the Cargo ship dialog screws up any Jenova theory....who's body is he speaking of? A clones? And then who is speaking after that? Is it the empty clone speaking? It calls Sephiroth it's Master. And explains that everyone injected with Jenova cells must deliever the Black Materia to him. I doubt it is the same Sephiroth that said, "This is the end of this body's usefulness."
One other thing...why is Sephiroth killing the clones? The place is littered with them....he's killing them all. Wouldn't he need them alive to attract Meteor there? The planet's biggest threat is Jenova. Doesn't make sense that Sephiroth was meteor's target...then how would he absorb the lifestream after being killed by meteor?
Cloud's group moves on.
Sephiroth: This is the end... for all of you.
(Sephiroth slashed away two black figures.)
Cloud: Sephiroth!!
Cid: This is the end!
Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.
Sephiroth disappeared.
Cloud: He disappeared!?
Tifa: He might still be nearby......
???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.
Cloud: Our...?
Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?
???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...
Cloud: Master...!?
???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...
(After Cloud's group defeats Jenova-DEATH)
Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...
Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?
Cloud: I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth.
Tifa: But Sephiroth is......
Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.
"I'll explain later", he says <sarcasm>....he never does. Just like the sentence about meeting Aeris in the Promise land.....no explanation, just a bunch of words completely out of place.
And lets not forget that Sephiroth, reappears and takes the image of one of Cloud's friends to fool them into following Cloud with the Black Materia. Apparently, he still had a use for someone's body.
The more and more I dig into FF7 storyline...the more and more I feel that there were too many cooks spoiling the broth. The story contridicts itself, in a few places. The purpose of the clones and how they are controlled is competely blurred in the story and it's the key to unlocking the thing.
-
I don't think Sephiroth was carrying Jenova at all. Jenova was leaving pieces of her body behind for Cloud to fight, even though she took the form of Sephiroth. (Think about it: she could already take on the form of Sephiroth without her head. Why wouldn't she be able to maintain it whilst losing other parts of her body?) The only part of Jenova that the real Sephiroth had was the head. He was carrying that when he was thrown into the lifestream by Cloud.
As far as the tattoo, wouldn't Jenova want to take on the exact appearance of Sephiroth, including any markings he may have had on his body?
I think that when Seph/Jenova said about "This is the end of this body's usefullness", it was Jenova saying that she could finally let that body die. She had a new body in Sephiroth (the real one), and was ready to become a god in that body.
None of this manages to explain who was really in control, though. I like to think that Jenova was the ultimate enemy in the game, that Sephiroth kinda got screwed before birth.
Look at the final Omnislash scene, for example. Cloud is fighting plain old human Sephiroth. He's not an almighty being like in the battle before, and he's fairly weak. Now, I believe this battle happened only in Cloud's mind, that it symbolized him defeating the Jenova cells in his body that tormented him throughout the game . . . but it also symbolizes the fact that without Jenova, Sephiroth is just another human like everyone else.
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Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?
:-?
I thought about that... then just hoped wheat I said was right :lol:
Sorry mate, you got it wrong ¬_¬
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Sukaeto, your going against the dialog....the dialog says Sephiroth was carrying Jenova. If we were discussing who was right....that scene would fold your argument. Unless you can prove it's a translation error.
-
....that scene would fold your argument.
Or maybe Cloud and co. didn't know what they were talking about at the time...?
Dunno, but I think Sukaeto's theory is very interesting.
-
I just like having fun taking both sides....
Starts 7th post down.....
http://boards.ign.com/Final_Fantasy/b5026/64821539/p8
My handle is Countrywide....there. My posts are kinda spread apart.... Anyway, I pretty much came up with Sukaeto's theory, too. When making Jenova a seperate living being...and not just a virus.
Jimconcrete is the other poster to pay attention to....the others you can pretty much ignore....they never got into it. How boring.
----------
I owe "Countrywide" Finance 50,000 dollars, so I figured I had the right to use it as my handle, besides...Threesixty was already taken by someone...although I have never seen a post there by a Threesixty.
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I'm with Aaron. I don't think Cloud KNEW that it was Jenova. I kind of think, but have no proof, that the dialog in the Northern Crator between Cloud and Tifa after defeating Jenova death was Cloud DISCOVERING that it WAS Jenova that they were chasing after all along.
Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...
Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?
Doesn't make too much sense, I think it's a translation error.
btw: That's great, how you picked that handle (Countrywide), Threesixty. :-D
---Edit---
Alright, I started reading the topic on the IGN board, but I quickly got sick of it. Jimconcrete isn't proving anything, IMO half of the stuff he's saying doesn't make much sense. It'd be different if he actually had some interesting ideas to bring to the board, but he seems more bent on being snide and attempting to belittle you than proving anything.
-
I also visited IGN boards...
What Jimconcrete is showing is pointless. He's keeping his side no matter what you say, and will turn down your arguments even if they are true. This was the part when I gave up even reading his posts
"
Quote: Keep that in mind when reading the script. Don't take the script as word per word....take into account the personality of each character and the emotional stress that each is under.
Jimconcrete : your not going to prove anything here
"
Allthough I liked another posters :
"
wonder if anyone connected to Squaresoft ever comes to places like this just to see what crackpot theorys are flying around, thinking "Man, if only they knew it was something completly different to that, and so so simple"....
I think some people read WAAAAAAAY too much into things...
"
And I can't understand why some people think that Sephiroth had control over Jenova. It's not possible. Jenova was and is a demi-god, Sephiroth is just a mere puppet for her, though very useful. How can a joining of Jenova Cells, Mako Energy, and human lifeform be more powerful then a being who killed almost all of the Cetra? It just doesn't make sense.
(Ed: I read on... and now I'm quite sure that ceasing this feasable discussion with Jim is the right thing to do. He's talking nonsense..)
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I should put my two cents in. Foremostly, I will say that everything I say is my own interperetation after playing the hell out of this game for years straight. The Sephiroths we see throughout the game? I always thought of them as projections of Sephiroth's self. This explains the random flying, going through walls, etc. The way I see it, Sephiroth is trying to Reunite all the scattered cells of Jenova, once Cloud was on the move (He was the third largest concentration of Jenova Cells on the Planet, so it was imperative that he join the Reunion) Sephiroth set into motion, he sent out his projection, and absorbed the mass of his Mummy dearest, (Perhaps took control of the remains of her body, I had never thought of it that way but it makes an ammount of sense.) tore a swath of destruction through the shinra building (Sephiroth carrying/hosting Jenova's body) killed the prez, and left. Yes, he was using this as a chance to revive and his mother (Who I believe was the true orchestrator of it all, Sephiroth was Jenova's puppet, nothing more.), but he could do that at any time he pleased, the reason things happened like they did, was that Sephiroth and Jenova knew it would set the party, especially Cloud, on the path that they wanted them to take.
As it stands, this is how I see the "Chain of Manipulation" going.
Jenova - Sephiroth - Jenova's body - Everyone.
Basically, Jenova sits at the top, she's the Queen Bitch running the whole show, and loves it. I believe her conciousness resides within Sephiroth's body in the northern crater. From here she controls just about everything that Sephiroth does and thinks. And Sephiroth thinks he's doing everything he does of his own free will. So once things begin to move, he either projects himself outwords, or takes control of Jenova's body, (I am liking this idea more and more, so I think I will just tell my rationale from that perspective.) and breaks Jenova loose. Sephiroth's conciousness, Jenova's Will and Body, these are what you actually chase around the game. And united, this Unholy Dichotomy is the force that warps the minds of so many.
Wow, if you think about it, there is a disturbing parallel to Christianity here. The Mother, The Son, and the Jenova Cells. Jenova being a parallel to god, Sephiroth to Jesus, and the Jenova Cells representing the Holy Spirit, the part of this twisted version of God that is in the everyman - Cloud. Heh, perhaps Jenova's assult on the ancients is representive of Christianity's influence on Japan in the time of the Jesuits, but this is a topic for a different discussion entirely.
As for the clones, the reason Sephiroth, or projected sephiroth, was killing them off was to absorb the Jenova in them, and add it to the whole of his Mother that he carried. Reuniting Jenova to her whole self in the long run.
Anywho, that's my two cents, If I think of anything I missed, I'll keep you posted.
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I wonder, why were Jenova ever placed in the reactor?
And what happened when she got away from there?
Did the reactor cease functioning?
The head, who cut it off?
If Jenova escaped by herself from the cell in the Shinra Tower, where did she get Sephiroth's sword from?
Can she prouduce weapons out of her body too?
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OK first off, the head was on Jenova in the Nibleheim reactor. Sephiroth cut it off when he took it.
As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.
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As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.
More like to provide cells for the monsters I'd think...
Just for the sake of adding another spin to this conversation, how about this?.....
Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.
Sephiroth was thrown into the Lifestream 5 years ago. We all know this is the last that's seen of him until the Northern Crater. Sephiroth takes the head of Jenova, and by the end of it all, is thrown into the Lifestream by Cloud, still in posestion of the head of Jenova.
Jenova can't be destroyed so easily, hence the Reunion, the cells will find their way back together.
Now, what if, because of the high concentration of Jenova, Sephiroth's body merged with Jenova's head, thus beginning the Reunion. At this point, Sephiroth is dead, mentally at least. His body becomes nothing more than a primary host for Jenova, a point to which all other's will be drawn for the Reunion.
Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...
Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?
At this point Cloud realizes that it was the body of Jenova, not Sephiroth, that they'd been chasing around the world. This is what trigger's Cloud's breakdown, if it wasn't Sephiroth that they were chasing, then what happened to him after the Nibelheim incident 5 yrs ago, the last time he was seen?
Why does Jenova take Sephiroth's form and not another?
Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.
Sephiroth, or at least his body, acting as the host of Jenova's central being (the head), told the body what form to take, and what to do along the way. There are 3 possible reasons why Sephiroth's form was used:
One is simply the intimidation factor, e.g. noone will try to obstruct a black-caped man with a very mean-looking sword while he's passing through town.
Two is that Sephiroth has been dead for 5 years, so the odds of him being recognized by the average person are slim, while others will know him right away and be afraid, i.e. Cloud, President Shinra, and anyone else involved in the grand scheme.
And three is that it will entice Cloud to follow, as Cloud would make a valuable asset to the Reunion. Remember, Cloud was the only "successful" subject as a Sephiroth "clone" which is shown by the fact that he pursued what he thought to be Sephiroth all the way to the Northern Crater.
In the end, Jenova was the grand manipulator of it all, Sephiroth the host of a grander being, and Cloud the sometimes-unknowing, sometimes-unwilling puppet, and Tifa the key to unlock Cloud's ability to overcome what would have otherwise overtaken him entirely.
-
Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.
just wanted to correct that... <atleast i think> but it wasnt hojo that infused sephiroth with jenova cells but professor gast if i'm not mistaken.. and i also would like to know... where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly... also i think also where were all the sephiroth clones throughout the beginning of the story? why did they just suddenly appear? and unless i'm mistaken <yea ok its my first time playing again in years> but zack was aeris' boyfriend she mentioned breifly right? well what role did that have anywhere? was there something i missed? and tifa... yea she knew a lot more than she let on throughout the story but i don't remember it being explained why she withheld everything from cloud... i'd give my own oppinions on these questions i have here but its 430 am and i think i'm gonna finish the game first before i go into that but just thought i'd see what everyone else had to say on this
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where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly...
Sephiroth had no memory problems. He was told that his mother was a woman named Jenova and that she died after she gave birth to him.
Think of it this way, do you know who your mother is, the date of your birth, and where you were born? You weren't there though, how could you possibly know for sure? The answer is simple, you are told those things. Same with Sephiroth, the reason that he didn't know was because he was never told. Essentially the same as a child of an extra-marital affair who is told that his father is his mother's husband. How could the child know any different? Not much of a point for analysis really....
-
like i said i'm gonna play some more an get back to this... just to be sure on what i wanna say
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...Cloud was not a succesful clone...he was a failer. In order for the story ever to take place, he would have to be a failer.
I have a theory about the creation of a clone of Jenova. To create a Clone the game said it needed Jenova's cells and Mako Energy. Ask yourself, "What is Mako Energy?" It's lifestream, right? A place where memories of the dead go. I havent' "made-up" a complete theory here...but just keep your mind open on this.
Maybe Cloud died that day. Maybe the Jenova's cells during this cloning process, gather memories from the Mako Energy. And for whatever reason....it couldn't find any for Cloud. And thus he was had no self-being....he was a retard. A body with no memories or being, but just full of Jenova. A newborn. And like newborns, need to learn stuff the hard way. He started with Zack's ambitions....then ended up with Tifa's memores of a little boy in her childhood.
As for Zack, he was already a soldier...he already went thru some type of process. Maybe that's why the Jenova cell part of the cloning process didn't work. And since there was no new Jenova cells in him...there was no Mako Energy influence, either. His immunity allowed him to stay himself.
-
I thought Hojo assumed Cloud was a failure, but was wrong.
-
I thought Hojo assumed Cloud was a failure, but was wrong.
To me, that seemed like an area of grey, as a clone he was a partial-success I would say. He was drawn by the Reunion, but only on a subconscious level. He was also subject to Jenova's control, just like the other clones were. But at the same time, he had a soul of his own, Jenova's power over him was not total, which is seen when his friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. He was not a total success, but not a total failure either, and that, to me, has always seemed like a central point in things.
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Messiah: Your theory on Jenova/Sephiroth is pretty much EXACTLY what I believe, except for the part about Sephiroth having died in the lifestream. I had never thought of that before, but I think I like it. It would make sense.
Threesixty: I guess Cloud dying is a possiblility . . . though I wouldn't like to think of it that way. Mako poisoning is a very traumatic experience . . . people are known to lose their memory when they experience something that catastrophic. (I'd just hate to think that it wasn't really Cloud that you were playing as the whole way through the game.)
---edit---
In fact, I liked your theory on Sephiroth being dead by the time he reached the Northern Crater, I went and made a post on the IGN board and used that in my theory.
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Ok, i have a theory of my own.
Sephiroth died when he fell into the lifestream, but his strong will/consciousness somehow survived and merged with the "memories" in the lifestream itself. And as you know, Mako is refined from lifestream.
Hojo used Jenova cells to create clones of Sephiroth. Cloud however had suffered Mako poisoning due to the experiments Hojo performed on him and Zack, so he lost his own memories and was forced to the will of sephiroth (due to the mako) to follow him to the crater where Sephiroth most likely wanted his revenge on what Cloud did to him in the Nibelheim reactor. (whew)
Sephiroth just had to let him have some memories of Zack (which Sephiroth had access to, since Zack died and went to the planet) and mixed it with some of his own memories. So he let Cloud drag himself to the sector 7 slums. That's when Tifa found him at the station in sector 7, and Cloud regained his consciousness.
Hope you understand my bad English...
N.
-
^^^
Except the game said Cloud wasn't effected with Mako...just Jenova.
-
He had mako poisoning when Tifa found him, didn't he?
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...Hojo's report said that one was effect by neither, and one was effected by Jenova cells and no mention of Mako Energy.
"Escape report no.1
X month X day
The two escapee's located near Midgar"
"Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected."
"Escapee report no.3
Concerning their disposal.
A - Shot for resisting.
B - Escaped during A's resistance."
"Escapee report no.4
Other.
B's whereabouts is currently unknown. But, we submit there is no need to
pursue him, due to his diminishing consciousness. Awaiting further
instructions."
http://www.kuponut.com/index.html?ilogo.html&ilinks.html&http://www.kuponut.com/games/ff7/
under secret scenes
-
First post.
Take notice - Mideel Cloud's Mako poisoning is not his first case. After the Nibelheim reactor scene when Cloud throws off Sephiroth, Shin-ra decides to mask everything up - Nibelheim lives again, and both Cloud and Zack are taken into experiment. Zack being exposed to Mako, and being an ex-SOLDIER withstands it, and becomes quite powerful.. Cloud however reacts with Jenova Cell's, and togheter with Mako poisoning and what happened at Nibelheim, he is completely devastated both physically and mentally.
Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.
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Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.
Well yes, I didn't say otherwise..
-
Why don't you ask yourself this:
Why does a clone of Sephiroth need Mako Energy and Jenova cells?
Lets forget the idea of not having Sephiroth's DNA....which I find real hard do believe....but we might as well forget it.
Mako Energy is the Soul of everyone. Memories....life....all things dead and unborn are the lifestream. Jenova's cells are her own DNA. So it's kinda obvious why the cells would be used. It's her seed.... maybe even her.
So, why is Mako needed to make a clone?
Memories maybe?
Perhaps since Cloud had no reaction to the mako, he had no memories in his mind.....he was a brainwashed blank, slate. Made into a mindless lump of flesh with no memories to be taken from the Mako Energy......no soul....no being.
^^^
Only problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain the scratched messages on the test tubes. I really think that the writers of FF7 didn't think that deep into their own story, and ran into contridictions. The details of FF7 really don't make any sense. I could say that Jenova made the reply on the testube...but that is just stretching it. I'm making it up, with no support from the dialog of the story.
Maybe not having a reaction to Mako Energy means that....he's been poisoned by Mako Energy. You can pretty much twist things into any form you want with the dialog of FF7. But then that doesn't make any sense with Zack's report.... Unless you stretch that by saying that you must have a reaction with Jenova, before the Mako therapy part of the cloning process becomes a factor. And since Zack had no reaction to the first part "Jenova", he would have no effect of the second part, "Mako".
Either way, your just making stuff up....filling in the holes left by Squaresoft.
There is no right answer....I guess that is what I was getting at, with my first response, on this mako poisoning thing..
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Well, that's what this topic's all about...
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Mako, i figgure, is to counterbalance the J-cells derogitory effects on the mind and body. So someone can HAVE them, but they'd probably get very sick.
Zack wasn't affected by the J-cells and Mako, because, as a SOLDIER, he already HAD them. Of course he wouldn't show any future reaction. He was probably being used as a control to compare Cloud to *shrugs*
And Cloud OBVIOUSLY has mako: He's got the eyes. Cloud and Aeris ahve a little conversation about it:
Aeris
"Hey.... Cloud. Were you ever in SOLDIER?"
Cloud
"..."
"...I used to be. How did you guess?"
Aeris
"...Your eyes. They have a strange glow..."
Cloud
"That's the sign of those who have been infused with Mako..."
"A mark of SOLDIER."
"But, how did you know about that?"
Aeris
"...Oh, nothing."
Now, we all KNOW that Cloud never MADE IT into SOLDIER, so he had to've gotten that glow from somewhere, ie, Hojos tinkering.
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^^^^
or Jenova's cells.
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First off this post's info was put together by me an my bro (HBK188) whom i couldn't have done this without.
Sephiroth Zack and Cloud how things really are...
OK Lets start this off with professor Gast. Being the man who did the original research on the Jenova project... But research was all he really did. He got the information from Ilfana about Jenova. That Jenova exists and will not die and the planet is keeping a close eye on it. Hojo got wind of everything because Gast was reporting what he found out to shinra and Hojo kept some of those reports to himself. Now let's cut to Lucrecia and the birth of Sephiroth. Sephiroth was the son of Lucrecia and Hojo. Hojo convinced her to give there unborn child to the Jenova project. Before Sephiroth was born he injected him with Jenova cells. And thats how sephiroth came about. Now cut to icicle inn. Hojo came to icicle inn and took Ilfana and Aeris and killed Gast and stole his research from there. Well as we all know Ilfana escaped with Aeris During or just slightly after the war in Wutai. Which happened atleast 17 years previous to the game. As yuffie wasn't born until after the war and she is 16. Well sephiroth became a great war hero during that time We don't know his exact age but i'm gonna guess he was around 14-16. And Aeris would have been about 5. Cloud woulda been 4 then. So Hojo had Ilfana and Aeris for between 4-5 years but they did escape and Ilfana was in bad shape from the escape she left Aeris with her new mom (the name escapes me at the moment) and passed away. Leaving Aeris the sole surviving ancient. Or does it? Sephiroth stated several times through out the game he was an ancient. And if you hunt around you'll find a document that states X day X month Jenova confirmed to be an ancient.... That part of the story get's kinda pushed aside by most people. But it's there. So Aeris and Sephiroth are the sole survivors of the Cetra race. Now before i get to Cloud let me make something clear. The ability to meld memories and create illusions is the power of Jenova ok now that thats said lets goet this going. Lets get to Cloud and some more important parts of the story. Cloud 7 years ago at the well with Tifa. Tifa wearing the green dress and the stars and the promise they made. Remember that? Those are really Cloud's memories. Theres a big mix of memories in clouds head. Between his and Zacks. I'll specify who's are who's throughout this. Cloud leaves then to join soldier at age 13 (7 years prior to the beginning of the game) 2 years pass and Cloud doesnt make it into soldier but he's still in shinra. Although Cloud does not make it into soldier he is despatched to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. Now the flashback he has in Kalm shows Him as a member of soldier 1st class. We all know that was Zack not Cloud. The real Cloud was the shinra guard in the truck with mostion sickness. Also the one who was standing guard first we know it was Cloud on guard duty first because Zack offered to come keep him company. Remember "Cloud" said he would come back an talk to the guard? Yea that was Zacks memory Cloud displayed there. And the reason Zack said he would was because him and cloud were friends (the reason there were only 3 beds is because 1 person was gonna be on guard all night they didnt need more than 3 beds) Anyways what follows is really unimportant until we get to the reactor the second time after the fire. (which is real proven by zaghanan, tifas teacher, in the letter he wrote to her) Tifa is severely wounded by Sephiroth and Zack also. Cloud follows and is outraged takes Zacks sword and cuts Sephiroth but does not kill him. Sephiroth limps inside the reactor a little more until he reaches Jenova and Cloud stops him. Sephiroth cuts him but cloud tosses him over the bridge with Sephiroths sword. The problem with the memory at Kalm is that Cloud could not have known what happened inside the reactor unless he'd taken Zack's place. So that too shows that Clouds flashback was of Zack's memory. Now the peice we saw at the # 5 reactor is true Tifa takes the sword and goes after Sephiroth this was how she was wounded at the reactor. This goes to prove Jenova's mind melding abilities because Cloud would not have Zacks memories of what happened before Cloud arrived and Zack would not have the concious memories of what happened after he was Cut. After everything here Hojo arrives with shinra and collects the bodies. (Tifa is not there Zanhagan saved her it said in her letter) It's at this point Hojo decides to test tube Cloud and Zack They didn't get # tattoos because they weren't full Sephiroth clones.but if they had they would have been 2 and 3 Sephiroth being 1... also Nanaki would have been 15 instead of 13 but anyways. Nanaki got a number but wasnt a full clone neither infact he hadn't had much done to him his main purpose was to extend the life span of the ancient which is why Hojo was gonna breed him and Aeris. But anyways Zack already has a tolerance for mako and the like so it doesnt affect him as much as it did Cloud (hence why he is still concious) But after all that and 5 years of it Cloud is pretty far gone. Zack breaks them out. Now the Jenova cells in cloud are very active due to the high concentration of mako and it's coming up here where Cloud absorbs Zacks memories. They take off twoards midgar and are being given a ride by a man in a truck where Zack decides he would become a mercenary an says Cloud can with him. He gives Cloud some clothes to wear. Well the driver drops them off on the cliffs outside midgar. It's here where the shinra guards catch them and kill Zack. Because Cloud was so messed up already they just left him for dead there. (Although in the report they made later they said he escaped...) But Cloud comes too and see's his friend lying there dead takes his sword and makes his way to midgar. He's sitting at the train station all dulled up on mako when he runs into Tifa. Now i beleive he absorbed some of Tifa's memories here but i really don't have much for proof to support this. But notice when Tifa starts talking to him she says his name and he questions it we get a flash (this is wear i think he absorbed some of her memories) and he knows whats going on and is semi back to normal for the most part. After this he relays "his" memories to Tifa and the game begins. Now Sephiroth is being chased around the entire game. I hate to disapoint ya all but that isn't the real Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth Throughout the game is in north crater. Thats where he came out of the lifestream. He is encased in materia as you here in the scene where you first see weapon an cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth. Sephiroth has been here through out the entire game. The Sephiroth you chase around are Sephiroth clones. You remember the part on the way to the reunion where sephiroth says this is the end of this bodies usefulness? Yup just a clone. Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate his clones because of the Jenova cells. Since Cloud wasnt a true clone he couldnt completely control him but still had affect from time to time. You see his influance when Cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth but you see he doesnt have total control when Clouds friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. So yea that's the deal with Sephiroth Cloud and Zack. I think i covered just about everything here. Everything important anyways. But that's the whole deal i got the proof to back up most everything i've said an if ya all don't beleive something lemme know and i'll tell ya where to find the proof in the game.
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ok... that was pleasantly confusing?...
Anyway, i guess you DO cover the whole thing.
I guess i came pretty close didn't i? :wink:
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lol sorry was so confusing tried to make it as clear as i could an i did leave a couple things out but nothing of real importance that i can see lol
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Spaces wont bite...
@_@
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Uhm. It's kind of the basics from the game put together.
Although I would give more interest to Nanaki and his role... This still seems to be a sort of enigma..
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That's one thing that still bugs me... Isn't it weird that Nanaki has pups in the ending movie? I thought he was the last of his kind.
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...you got most of that from me...didn't you. That Cloud is an empty shell, with first Zack's memories and later Tifa's memories powering him. Our story does not begin until Cloud finally absorbs Tifa's memories. That is when he gets a piece of his true self. It was a catalyst of awareness, sole to speak. None of the other clones were aware of their surroundings...they just wanted to be with Sephiroth. That is the only real, reason why Cloud is different from the other clones.
Jenova isn't a Cetra.....it was just assumed. When you go to Cosmo Canyon, you find out Gast may have been wrong. And when you find the tapes at that Icicle village, you find out he was wrong.
If you pay attention to Vincent's story, you find out that Gast was a part of creating Sephiroth. He knew about the Sephiroth experiment. He wanted a reincarnated Ancient, too. Hojo just went a step further...He wanted the Ancient to be his blood. Gast probably didn't know that Hojo had gotten the female researcher pregnant. But that really doesn't matter, that just shows how Hojo thought, and how selfesh he truely is. It's just ironic that Gast turns out to be the true father of an Ancient....His blood was in Aeris.
Of course none of these things really effect that....Brainstorm paragraph? you wrote....
Red13 had only one role in the story....to mate with Aeris so that the speciments that they created would have a long life span..... so the children could be experimented on....indefinitely. As for his cubs....I'm sure the planet is bigger than the game shows it to be...
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Cloud isnt really an empty shell... just lost in himself. He has his memories they are just surpressed. Some things like flashback at #5 reactor are from his memory coming through and at the lifestream where it finaly shows that he is a shinra guard in nibelheim and not zack was his memory. Gast wasn't part of it he even said Gast wouldnt do something like this in Vincent's story Gast did the research and figured out how to do it Hojo took what Gast had learned and discovered and just took it the final step with Sephiroth. An on a side note... i think Nanaki and Aeris woulda had some messed up lookin kids lol
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ok nanaki didnt really have a huge role in the game Ged pretty sure his fate was to be another attempt at a clone had not cloud an the gang happened upon him he was also to mate with aeris... which means cross species mating is a possibility to where his pups came from in the ending. He was the last of his species but if he could mate with aeris why not someone else right? and apparently thats what the kids turned out as. Other than that all there was to nanaki is a way to bring cosmo canyon and buggenhagen (i'm sure thats spelled soo wrong lol) into the picture to further along/add (with the lil deal about his dad, Seto) to the story... thats about all there is to nanaki
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You learn what Hojo is up to in those recordings in the icicle village.
Hojo was likely ploting Sephiroth at that time. Some of the hints are when they go to stop him from firing sister ray again.
Hojo is your stereo typical mad scientist character. :)
Cyb
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by the time hojo was in iceicle inn sephiroth was already born
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Never said he did.
Hojo said he is lending a hand to the endangered species. Some said it was to "produce" an Ancient with Red's lifespan.
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thats exactly why he was doing it.